FJowners.com

Okay, so I have been lurking on these boards for the better part of six months gleaning as much information as I can. (You guys are a gold mine)  :hi:

Anyway, I picked up a 1990 FJ1200 with 120k miles and it looks good but mechanically it's a basket case.  On the test ride that I took it in I was impressed with the power, but terrified when I went over some bumps and the forks bottomed out in compression and rebound. (Not a good feeling at all) So I get it home knowing that I have a project and a half to complete.
Once I got it home the first order of business was to check the compression. Starting from left to right I got 90psi. Okay, not the end of the world. Then 110psi, now things are looking a little better. Then the next cylinder came up 45psi. But last and most certainly least the last one weighed in at a whopping  30psi. I'd assume it's safe to say that I had my work cut out for myself.

More to follow...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/2012-01-12_21-15-51_445.jpg)

Oh, if you want pictures or measurments of anything while I have it appart please let me know.

those numbers sound kind of suspect to me if you test rode the bike and were impressed with the power.


Kookaloo!

Adjust your valves then do another compression test. On a warm engine, Hold the throttle WFO, see if the numbers don't improve.

Wow, from the photo, that is an extremely clean bike for having 120K miles on it. Looks like it was well cared for and garaged.

Fred

Yea, I love that color combo on the FJ, most beautimus.

Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 17, 2012, 06:45:19 PM
Adjust your valves then do another compression test. On a warm engine, Hold the throttle WFO, see if the numbers don't improve.

Thanks. There was another thread on compression tests that was an invaluable resource. Those were the better numbers. (Hooked up to a craftsman start kart with the throttle open)

Turns out the exhaust valves were burnt. i.e. Had good size holes in them.

The sucker has been torn down to just about all the pieces it rolled down the assembly line in.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/2012-01-20_21-13-01_133.jpg)

Soooo, let dial up users be warned. I'm going to be posting a whole slew of pictures...


Some general tear down photos

Engine out and working on the wiring harness.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMAG0172Medium.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMAG0175Medium.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMAG0173Medium.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMAG0190Medium.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMAG0193Medium.jpg)

Grate pics and story on your restore. Keep the info going, it will be worth every effort and we get to enjoy your adventure.... Thanks.

Ok, so top end work is in order. What's your plan? Gonna do the rings while you're in there?
If so, it would be a good time for new starter and cam chains...

Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 17, 2012, 09:41:33 PM
Ok, so top end work is in order. What's your plan? Gonna do the rings while you're in there?
If so, it would be a good time for new starter and cam chains...

Maybe some polish on the frame, decals and mirror stalks..... Wait for it Pat.... I did some clean up on my new to me AL SupperTrapps. Pics posted soon.....

Quote from: racerman_27410 on October 17, 2012, 06:38:47 PM
those numbers sound kind of suspect to me if you test rode the bike and were impressed with the power.


Kookaloo!

It's funny, it doesn't take a whole lot of power to be impressive compared to a tired V45 with compression down to 85psi per cylinder (Book says it's supposed to be 165psi +- 25psi)  That and with the front fork so bad it's down right scary.

Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 17, 2012, 09:41:33 PM
Ok, so top end work is in order. What's your plan? Gonna do the rings while you're in there?
If so, it would be a good time for new starter and cam chains...

Well the plan started out being "lets do a rebuild and get this bucket back on the road"
Of course then I looked at the cost of doing a proper rebuild and decided that it wasn't going that much further to do a big bore upgrade.... (I know, not even hardly realistic...) Of course then there was the secondary goal of building a motorcycle that I wasn't always wishing that there was more power....

That being said, yes. I have purchased new chains and dampers for the engine.

Here's the rear axel before I tore it down...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMAG0178Medium.jpg)

Of course that's before I chopped the ass off of it...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMAG0193Medium.jpg)

It's amazing how quickly these things break down into hardly anything.

Quote from: skymasteres on October 17, 2012, 10:22:00 PM

Of course then there was the secondary goal of building a motorcycle that I wasn't always wishing that there was more power....

its possible to do exactly that with the FJ ..... you're gonna love it!  :biggrin:


KOokaloo!

Now here is where things get interesting. I started with the engine. I all of my car builds I have always started from the ground up. Work on making the thing handle, then when you have reached the limit of what you can achieve with the stock horsepower level.... roll on the steam.

Why I broke with this mantra, I couldn't tell you, but the result is I started looking under every rock for better bits to go inside the case.   I basically started looking for parts to get the head back in working order. In my wondering around I stumbled upon many wonderful things. Such as a head that had already been ported and had oversized valves installed. +1mm on intake and exhaust.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/IMAG0985Medium.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/IMAG0983Medium.jpg)

Of course it's also been line honed and decked.

Then there was the issue of increasing the displacement. I ended up following the guidance on the board here and going with a set of 82mm weisco pistons from Hank Scott Racing.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/IMAG0871Medium.jpg)

The piston on the right is the stock piston after I cleaned up the crown in the sandblaster.

And of course since I was looking for more power I decided that a set of XJR rods was in order. Really I was looking to save on reciprocating weight.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/IMAG0869Medium.jpg)

Here is a comparison shot of the old and new rods.

I have a nice pic of just two of the eight burnt out exhaust valves, from my original 84 head that no po had laid a spanner on

Those pistons along with the added displacement, will up your compression ratio to over 13-1, you planning on a shave?

Here is the original head and the burned exhaust valve.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/IMAG2239Medium.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/IMAG2240Medium.jpg)

Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 18, 2012, 12:50:01 AM
Those pistons along with the added displacement, will up your compression ratio to over 13-1, you planning on a shave?

Not so much a shave, but I did have Hank Scott open up the combustion chambers to accommodate the larger pistons.  This should get me back to the 11.5:1 range.

shit mate, that's just a little worse than mine, but not by much , would explain your low readings

You know it's funny how insidious the notion "Oh, well I've come this far I might as well...." becomes.  I mean, I started out saying I'll just put this new head on, do some rings, and put her back together. Then it was, nope the cylinder bores are out of max oval tolerance, time to bore the sucker out. Of course that meant new pistons. Then it was "Okay, a big bore kit isn't much more than a set of one oversize stock pistons."  After that it was, "Do I want to reuse the old cylinder block and get it re-sleeved, or go with a set of 1250 jugs"  And on and on and on....

I actually lucked out on the 1250 block. I got a used one on eBay and was wrestling with the notion of leaving it at a 1250 displacement because I liked the idea of the nikasil on the bores and was kinda looking to save some money on not putting a set of sleeves in it at $100 a pop installed and bored.  The part where I lucked out was the block had already had the largest sleeves installed and all it needed was to be bored to 82mm.

Here's a picture of the combustion chambers on the new head.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG0981Medium.jpg)

Its beautiful.

that is one sweet engine you are putting together,  I would be interested in how much it all cost?

I got to thinking about the new pistons and how there are bigger but no heavier than the stock slugs. Then I was looking at corrilo rods to save more weight. That and I knew that I definitely wanted to get the engine balance. (I couldn't believe the difference that made of the 302 I had balanced internally when I was doing cars)  Well, to be honest I was looking at getting the crank offset ground, getting some Kawasaki rods "adjusted" and adding a few millimeters to the stroke. That idea hung around for a while because I was looking at the cost of balancing and is was "only" a few hundred more to get the crank stroked. In the end it boiled down to the longevity of the crankshaft. Turns out that these things have a "missing" bearing and when you stroke them and run them hard you end up with a cracked crankshaft. I wasn't digging the idea of spending the better part of a grand on a part that was going to self-destruct if I ran it too hard.

As fate would have it, I found out that APE racing is just down the road from me. Turns out that they would do a crankshaft lightening and balance job for $220. So off the APE the crank went. They got the sucker balanced to within 0.3 grams and removed quite a bit of material from the crankshaft. Although here is an IMPORTANT note, make sure that you record the numbers on your crankshaft before sending it out for any machine work. I wasn't aware that there were numbers on the end of the crankshaft that allowed for properly sizing your bearings. I found out about this when I was shopping around for bearings and when I called APE I found that they had already machined them off. And neglected to write them down anywhere.  But long story short the crank looked beautiful and was ready for the next step.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/IMAG1019Medium.jpg)

Quote from: Mark Olson on October 18, 2012, 10:43:18 AM
that is one sweet engine you are putting together,  I would be interested in how much it all cost?

Well, that's a question I have been deliberately leaving unanswered. Even for myself. Just because I know I am going to end up with more than the total value of the bike just in the engine. At this point I've definitely crossed the Rubicon and the engine needs to be finished. If I stop now I'm really loosing on a big investment of time. Besides, right now all of the really time consuming stuff is getting the cases prepped from coating.
Long story short I think I'm somewhere in the range of $4000 so far.

Here a gratuitous picture of the engine split open letting parts that haven't seen daylight since they were assembled.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/IMAG0033Medium.jpg)

Some of the time APE records journal codes....some of the time they don't. :scratch_one-s_head: It would have been nice if Yamaha had included journal/bearing saddle measurements with the factory manual bearing charts (like all the other bike makers). The FJ service manual is vague at best in many sections.

don't worry about the money invested , a lot of us on this site are way over the cost we could ever hope to get out of it. you are gonna keep it forever anyway so spend away and get what you want.

Quote from: Mark Olson on October 18, 2012, 11:25:36 AM
don't worry about the money invested , a lot of us on this site are way over the cost we could ever hope to get out of it. you are gonna keep it forever anyway so spend away and get what you want.

Well, that's pretty much the way I was looking at it. Besides, I look at it as quite the bargain. With all that I'm saving by doing it myself that is. (I did a quick sanity check to see what it would cost to do everyting I'm doing to this motor and the price tag was coming in at over $15k. This way I get the engine that I know every nut and bolt on. Plus it has some treatments that know no one else has because it would be cost prohibitive to pay someone to do it... (More to follow on that one)

So, switching gears without a clutch. (Easier on a motorcycle than a car by the way)  My garage is full of parts from this thing and I'm just itchig to get them back together. I have so much that I want to share and I am having some difficulty trying to present this in a linear and undertsandable fasion.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMAG0194Medium.jpg)

Here is the fram all stripped down and ready to go out for powder coating. (It's the one thing that I send out for coating. Just because I looked into what it would cost to build a coder coating oven and decided I was better off sending this one out)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/2012-04-08_18-27-59_925Medium.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/2012-04-08_18-28-27_188Medium.jpg)

you are making me start to twitch, I just can't bring my self to stop riding long enough to do a complete teardown and restoration.  ahhh someday.

Quote from: Mark Olson on October 18, 2012, 11:46:43 AM
you are making me start to twitch, I just can't bring my self to stop riding long enough to do a complete teardown and restoration.  ahhh someday.

It's definitely easier to do this if it's not your only bike. My big thing is, I have so many projects that I have half finished, I need to finish this and get on with the rest. I'm tired of having half fixed bikes and having stuff on the verge of breaking down....

So anyway, got the frame powder coated and decided to replace the steering head bearings. Figured with the age of the bike I'm going to be doing a lot of that.
Here's the frame back all nice and purdy... 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438384798341.jpg)

The upper bearing race came out fairly easily, but the lower one was a real bugger. I didn't have the tool and was too cheap to spend $30 on something I was only going to use once. Then it dawned on me. Use my welder to lay a bead on the inside of the bearing race that I could tap on from the top. Well this worked out better than I expected. The bead worked to give me something to tap against, but the heat from the welding also shank the race just enough to let it come right out.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438386543276.jpg)

And with the bearing out.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438386649487.jpg)

Now it was a matter of flipping it around to use to drive the new bearing race in.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438386114983.jpg)

Here's the lower triple waiting for new bearings.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438385925561.jpg)

Bearing is on. 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438385817550.jpg)

This picture made be chuckle because of that "There's always time for lubricant!" joke from a movie I saw recently.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438385523148.jpg)

Good old Mobil 1 synthetic grease.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438384977742.jpg)

So the engine is taking most of the spotlight, but there is other stuff going on in the living room...

Here is the wheel off of a FZ1000. (Also visible here is the extra material I had a buddy at the local cycle shop weld onto the swingarm to fill in the grove that the chain made in it..)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438384714940.jpg)

I guess there is some explaining in order. I had a real windfall in acquiring several parts from an individual that started a project but found himself in a position unable to finish it. In a sense a lot of the go fast goodies originated with him that and some of the suspension goodies as well.  (Thanks John) Of the items I purchased from him, one of them was a set of freshly rebuilt forks off a 90FJ with racetec cartridge valve emulators in them. Now I know everyone is going Ga Ga over Randy's parts, as well they should, but I got these forks ready to go for a lot less than the cost of Randy's new valves. (Just the valves) And besides, I need to get used to this thing and ride it so that when I do upgrade to the better valves I can appreciate what it is that I'm getting.
As you can see I was so excited about getting the new wheel that I got the tire put on it and attached to the forks... before I put the forks in the triple. D'oh! Time to take it back apart and get the forks put in right.  Here you can actually see the powder coating job I did on the upper triple clamp. (I like the way it came out)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438384507228.jpg)

And of course with the wheel on.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438384155975.jpg)

This is a work of art, and I enjoy following along with you.
But DAMN, does it ever put notions in my head as to what I'd like to do to mine.
Keep the ball rolling on this one, you have alot of peoples interest and we want to see the finished product!

Leon

+1 I want to see what your carb solution will be.....

Quote from: 1tinindian on October 18, 2012, 12:44:18 PM
This is a work of art, and I enjoy following along with you.
But DAMN, does it ever put notions in my head as to what I'd like to do to mine.
Keep the ball rolling on this one, you have alot of peoples interest and we want to see the finished product!

Leon

Thanks, it's certainly dominated enough og my free time for the last six months. I figure if I can return some of what I've gotten from this board it's a start. And you know a picture says a thousand words so...
If anyone has anything they want a better look at I'll do my best to ablidge.

Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 18, 2012, 12:53:04 PM
+1 I want to see what your carb solution will be.....

Well I haven't really done anything with the carbs yet. I mean, I haven't yet started the reassembly of the engine so they're just sitting in a box on the shelf. What I can tell you is, they are  one of the "goodies" I got from John. (36mm ball bearing flat slides)

yummy

Okay, gear change again. I'd been working on all of the hard parts. I.e. the frame and the engine, and I'd neglected to fix some of the soft parts. (The fairing.)
One thing I noticed when I was stripping the frame down and prepping it for powder coating was that there were a couple tweaked brackets on the left side from where the bike fell over. (I didn't do it, but with that many miles on the clock the bike had to have been dropped a few times) This damage appeared to have been caused by a sub 5mph drop. Just fast enough to scrape the faring, and break the belly pan, but not enough to drag the exhaust.

So without a due, my jaunt into the world of plastic welding...
One of the things that always makes me shake my head is that I use more of what I learned getting my engineering degree for my personal projects than I do for my real job.  Plastic welding is a lot like welding any other metal. You use heat to create fusion between two pieces and add filler where needed. In a sense it's a lot like tig welding. 
The belly pan was cracked on the right side leaving the mounting ear snapped off.

Here's the crack

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-08_17-28-33_661Medium.jpg)

Trying to figure out how to go about welding this thing.  Ended up using a razor blade to strip back the insulation of the pan to I could get a clean shot at the cracks.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-08_17-28-12_628Medium.jpg)

Here is the weld on the broken ear. I made the decision to just attack it from the back because when done right these welds penetrate 90% of the way through.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-08_17-28-41_507Medium.jpg)

Here you can see that I've gone after another crack as well. (There were some cracks that you couldn't even see though the paint on the front. But this way I won't have any surprises later. (That and the thing shouldn't "explode" into pieces if I hit a hard bump.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-08_17-46-03_448Medium.jpg)

Here is the finished product.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-08_17-46-33_60Medium.jpg)

Another thing that I find impressive is just how sturdy these things are. Not just the frame and the overall attention to detail in the design, but the way for the most part that things that need to be strong and rigid are, and things that need to flex or give a little do.  It's also amazing how much damage can be hidden under a pristine exterior. The upper fairing assembly was damaged in a tip over with cracks and little chunks missing all over. Basically it was an exercise of taking scrap pieces of ABS from a donor fairing and welding them in to replace the missing pieces.  Well that and putting a bead on all of the cracks and generally making it a monolithic structure again....   On to the pictures. (Like Wolf's let's go to the video tape, but with a lot fewer syllables..)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-08_21-23-28_103Medium.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-09_21-08-29_601Medium.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-09_21-51-36_676Medium.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-09_21-49-25_958Medium.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-08_21-05-34_905Medium.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-08_21-11-09_889Medium.jpg)

I know, the pictures are framed really tighly. I was juggling getting the detail of the repair with allowing for spacial awareness....

Quote from: skymasteres on October 18, 2012, 02:49:38 PM
allowing for spacial awareness....

I know all about spacial awareness... That's why I need to wear a helmet all the time....  :wacko1:

Quote from: FJmonkey on October 18, 2012, 03:16:03 PM
I know all about spacial awareness... That's why I need to wear a helmet all the time....  :wacko1:

Indeed, I myself am on my third helmet right now.  :dash1:


Moving on. Here is yet another shining example of me not being able to leave well enough alone.  I decided that there was an awful lot of overhang on the canopy, aft of the metal supports and it just didn't feel like it was stiff enough to withstand the buffeting it would encounter at this bike's projected top speed.

So, I wanted to reinforce the rails supporting the canopy without affecting the appearance of the bike. I mulled over several options to include welding the little black supports together, using some metal underneath the black support bits, or just welding in some I-beams...
Seeing as I already had the plastic welder warmed up and was getting pretty good with it I opted to go full steam ahead on some serious plastic welding.
Here is the unmolested canopy support.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-15_15-44-46_344Medium.jpg)

The First strip welded into place. Basically I was taking a scrap piece of ABS and trimming it to fit. Then welding it into position and lining things up for the next piece.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/2012-04-15_15-44-41_234Medium.jpg)

Here is the semi-final product that has a few strips put in and filled in between with ABS welding rod.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/13438391329483.jpg)

And the finished product after a lot of time was spent with a dremel making everything fit. (I actually burned out that poor dremel)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/13438391415314.jpg)

The end result is the two fairing supports are much more rigid. I don't think I have compromised the bike's ability to take an impact by flexing and I think that there should be less shudder on the wind screen as well. (Of course the crazy part is, this is a solution to an imagined problem. I'll see how it works out)

the work looks great , it will be a work of art when you are done. keep the pictures coming it helps with my therapy. :rofl2:

The arms on the fairing stay (where the mirrors bolt to) supports the windscreen arms but heck, it can't hurt.
Keep up the good work me laddie!  :good2:

I need to learn how to plastic weld like that..... I feel inspired... Thanks.

Thanks for the comments guys.
Here's a quick question. Does anyone have a less expensive source for the headlight adjusting swivel link? Mine has the adjuster rod and knob, but the little universal joint is broken.

Moving back into the garage...
I have been working on engines for a long time and one of the things I'd read about and really wanted to put into this one was some of those nifty ceramic engine coating that imbue engine parts with magical power making qualities. I kid of course, but there are several coatings available that will enhance engine performance. I looked at this as a good place to increase reliability and power, especially consider just how much efficiency you lose in small displacement high RPM engines. Now before everyone balks, remember I come from the V-8 world were a 302ci (5000 CCs) engine with a redline of 7500 is considered small.  As the RPMs climb into the 10k+ range your frictional losses get huge. Now I know that the FJ isn't revved that high, but I figured what the heck.
In doing some research on coatings I found several companies that I could send parts out to and have them coated. But it just seemed like an awful lot of money for what I was getting. I mean $400 for piston tops, skirts, and combustion chambers seemed excessive. So looking further I discovered that Techline has a bunch of different ceramics that are perfect for my application.  I looked through their literature and was struck by just how strict the preparation and application procedures were. It was at this point that it dawned on me that most of the cost of getting these coatings applied professionally was in the labor and not the materials. Seeing as how I was already set up to do powder coating I figure why not.

So what are the requirements to put a spray on ceramic coating on an engine part? It has to be CLEAN and it has to be etched so that the pores in the metal are all opened up. Most of these coatings bond in an extremely thin film. The most important thing aside from cleaning the part is having clean dry air that you are spraying with.
Now to the back of my cave of wonders (garage) I had to modify my sandblasting cabinet to allow for easier switching out of the blast media. (The ceramic coatings need a 120grit abrasive) The piddly little ¾" opening just wouldn't do.

Here's my little sandblasting cabinet with my air dryer underneath.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13506124935911.jpg)

Now I know this is not in the same ilk as your usual builds, but I figure I may as well show everything that went into making this process happen. So here is a little run down on how I made my little harbor freight blast cabinet a WHOLE LOT more user friendly.

The pieces ready to go. I took a two inch steel nipple and cut it in half. It will be welded to the bottom of the sump to allow for quicker media changes. I.e. no more shaking the cabinet for 20 minutes trying to clean it out.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13506125750692.jpg)

Cleaned up with a wire brush and the hole started.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13506125912683.jpg)

Getting the nipple welded to the sump

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13506126037774.jpg)

The finished product with the original hole patched.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13506126151095.jpg)

I was unhappy with the original media pickup method and decided to use a piece of 5/16" copper tube. I took a short section, bent it to shape, and used liquid nails to affix it to the bottom of the cabinet.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13506126559277.jpg)

I then used the rest of the tube to seal up the cabinet. Here is the new copper pickup tube in place.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13506126929499.jpg)

The U-joint breaks on all of them. I have some spares made at work if you have all of the other pieces. Yours for cost of shipping. Another member posted his fix by using a 1/4 inch socket drive U-joint, very clean looking fix. A quick search for "adjuster" should find it for you.

Quote from: FJmonkey on October 19, 2012, 02:43:27 PM
The U-joint breaks on all of them. I have some spares made at work if you have all of the other pieces. Yours for cost of shipping. Another member posted his fix by using a 1/4 inch socket drive U-joint, very clean looking fix. A quick search for "adjuster" should find it for you.

You're the man! I'll definitely take you up on that.
Back to the living room. I had the blast cabinet set up so now it was time to start prepping the connecting rods. I figured since I already had the crank lightened and balanced it would be a shame to have rods that were all different weights. I was glad I checked too because there was 8 grams of difference between the lightest and the heaviest rod of the four new ones I got. So, after building a little balancing jig, it was a simple matter of getting all the small ends to weigh the same. Well, that and doing an overall weight matching.

Here is the balancing jig with the carrillo's I originally had. Long story short, I ended up with three new style and one old style rod. It was impossible to make up the 13 grams of difference between the two styles. I even took it to carrilo's HQ to see if they could do anything about it and they said they couldn't remove enough material to make it balance.  John was good enough to take back the rods. (Turns out he got them from an unpleasant individual some time ago.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/13438393198563.jpg)

I actually don't really have pictures of the process, but it was just using a 6x24 belt sander to remove the necessary material.

Back to the garage! The blast cabinet hadn't gone anywhere so it was time to start prepping the parts for coating. One of the things I had to figure out was what order I wanted to do the coatings in. Well, on parts that were getting multiple coatings at least. The pistons got a thermal barrio on the crowns, a ceramic lubricant on the skirts, and an oil shedding thermal dispersant on the underside of the pistons.

So here are the pistons getting their abrasive treatment.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG0989Medium.jpg)

Getting sprayed with the ceramic thermal barrier.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG0992Medium.jpg)

Comparison between an new piston and a coated one.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG0988Medium.jpg)

This is what the thermal barrier looks like when it is burnished with a scotch brite pad.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG1021Medium.jpg)

Here I had to mask the top and underside of the pistons to spray the ceramic lubricant.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG0999Medium.jpg)

The connecting rods were getting the same coating on the bore of the small end so I masked them off so they could be sprayed in the same batch along with the piston pins. (I figured I might as well...)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG0998Medium.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG1002Medium.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG1000Medium.jpg)

And going in the oven to cure.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG1006Medium.jpg)

Here is a cured piston waiting for the thermal dispersant on the bottom.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG1004Medium.jpg)

Here is everything masked and ready to go.
 
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG1013Medium.jpg)

Getting the connecting rods sprayed and hanging them on wires while the coating dries so I don't contaminate them.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG1016Medium.jpg)

And here is a finished piston.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG1014Medium.jpg)

Found it for you. This fix is likely much more robust than my new ones in SST. And anyone can do this. So let me know if you still want my part.

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7513.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7513.0)

This what my fix looks like.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=6286.msg55473#msg55473 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=6286.msg55473#msg55473)

skymasteres, man you are balls deep into this project  :good2:

I am diggin all the attention to detail with this engine build .  :drinks:

 Looks great.  Did you break the sharp edges on the piston crowns? Also....with Wiseco 1314 pistons I had to flycut the reliefs for OS valves. Are the stock reliefs large enough on those pistons??

Quote from: FJmonkey on October 19, 2012, 06:22:48 PM
Found it for you. This fix is likely much more robust than my new ones in SST. And anyone can do this. So let me know if you still want my part.

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7513.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7513.0)

This what my fix looks like.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=6286.msg55473#msg55473 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=6286.msg55473#msg55473)

still would like one monkey ranger

Quote from: fj11.5 on October 20, 2012, 08:12:12 PM

Quote from: FJmonkey on October 19, 2012, 06:22:48 PM
Found it for you. This fix is likely much more robust than my new ones in SST. And anyone can do this. So let me know if you still want my part.

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7513.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7513.0)

This what my fix looks like.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=6286.msg55473#msg55473 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=6286.msg55473#msg55473)

still would like one monkey ranger

PM your address, I will check postage to you....

Quote from: JMR on October 20, 2012, 01:38:28 PM
Looks great.  Did you break the sharp edges on the piston crowns? Also....with Wiseco 1314 pistons I had to flycut the reliefs for OS valves. Are the stock reliefs large enough on those pistons??

Well, as near as I can tell there is enough clarence for the valves to fit in the pockets. What do you mean, break the sharp edges? . I'm in the middle of tying to strip the ceramic off the piston tops, so it'd be helpful to know what that is before I re coat them.

Quote from: skymasteres on October 21, 2012, 03:00:51 AM

Quote from: JMR on October 20, 2012, 01:38:28 PM
Looks great.  Did you break the sharp edges on the piston crowns? Also....with Wiseco 1314 pistons I had to flycut the reliefs for OS valves. Are the stock reliefs large enough on those pistons??

Well, as near as I can tell there is enough clarence for the valves to fit in the pockets. What do you mean, break the sharp edges? . I'm in the middle of tying to strip the ceramic off the piston tops, so it'd be helpful to know what that is before I re coat them.

I like to have at least .040 lateral relief clearance.......060 is even better. Pistons have sharp edges secondary to machining the crowns. They have gotten a lot better in the last 5 years or so but they can benefit from extra attention. I use my porting tools to break the edges and smooth the reliefs etc. You can use wet/dry paper starting with 320 and then hit the crowns on a buffing wheel etc. It helps ward off detonation etc. I spend a good deal of time on piston crowns even working with flat tops or dished pieces.
Using the coatings is a good idea....I have Swain Tech do my work. I have seen pistons they have done come out of endurance cars and race bikes and the skirt coating(s) lose maybe a couple of tenths (.0001-2) at the most. FJ's run hot no matter what you do.....they can use all the help you can give them.
The work you have done looks professional and great....you will have a really nice bike in the end. Put some real cams and carbs in/on the engine and you should easily be in the 150HP range.

Quote from: JMR on October 21, 2012, 10:50:20 AM

Quote from: skymasteres on October 21, 2012, 03:00:51 AM

Quote from: JMR on October 20, 2012, 01:38:28 PM
Looks great.  Did you break the sharp edges on the piston crowns? Also....with Wiseco 1314 pistons I had to flycut the reliefs for OS valves. Are the stock reliefs large enough on those pistons??

Well, as near as I can tell there is enough clarence for the valves to fit in the pockets. What do you mean, break the sharp edges? . I'm in the middle of tying to strip the ceramic off the piston tops, so it'd be helpful to know what that is before I re coat them.

I like to have at least .040 lateral relief clearance.......060 is even better. Pistons have sharp edges secondary to machining the crowns. They have gotten a lot better in the last 5 years or so but they can benefit from extra attention. I use my porting tools to break the edges and smooth the reliefs etc. You can use wet/dry paper starting with 320 and then hit the crowns on a buffing wheel etc. It helps ward off detonation etc. I spend a good deal of time on piston crowns even working with flat tops or dished pieces.
Using the coatings is a good idea....I have Swain Tech do my work. I have seen pistons they have done come out of endurance cars and race bikes and the skirt coating(s) lose maybe a couple of tenths (.0001-2) at the most. FJ's run hot no matter what you do.....they can use all the help you can give them.
The work you have done looks professional and great....you will have a really nice bike in the end. Put some real cams and carbs in/on the engine and you should easily be in the 150HP range.

Well awesome. I'll have to do that. I know that on the inner radius of the valve reliefs it does an excellent job of making that cup smoother. The funny thing is this thermal barrier is so damn tough that it stands up to industrial sandblasting grit at 90psi like it's nothing. I mean a solid hour of blasting on one piston and I still couldn't strip the stuff. I am currently using a razor blade to cut the coating off. It's kind of like scraping but at a cutting angle with a whole lot of pressure overwhelm the physical strength of the coating till it shatters and turns to a powder.  The reason I am stripping it is I didn't get it totally mixed and it went on a little gloppy.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13508359023801.jpg)

Well, while I'm working on getting this damn coating off of the pistons how about some more info on the progress?

I was looking for a larger sandblasting cabinet to do the upper and lower cases in and found one on craigslist.
It definitely needed some work to get back up and running.  Here it is on it's way back from Manhattan beach.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13506128308261.jpg)

The motor was all sorts of frozen up. It was also full of crap.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13506130576745.jpg)

Here's what the stator and winds looked like after I cleaned them up.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13506130494694.jpg)


Here is the fork back on with the brake. I have been putting her back together slowly because at this point I find myself questioning where everything goes.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/13506932824030.jpg)

With the brute of a cabinet sitting in the back yard in desperate need of some refurbishment it was back to the garage to work on some more coating. (I'd end up getting new gloves and a replacement foot switch for the cabinet)

The crankshaft is getting a dual coating treatment. First of all let me tell you that this was a real trick to sandblast in my little cabinet. Lots of moving the thing around to cover all of the angles as I got it etched. Before that there was the half hour spent with acetone cleaning it off.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13506128828792.jpg)

I ended up applying the coating in two stages. First I started by masking off the bearings and applying the thermal dispersant.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13506129192403.jpg)

This was then baked. After it cooled down I cleaned off the non-coated parts just to be sure, masked off the coated bits and applied the ceramic lubricant. The finished product came out quite well if I don't say so myself. :)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG1948Medium.jpg)

I know it probably sounds dumb, but I'm thinking that this way the crank won't have anything sticking to it that shouldn't and it will create less windage... Well that's the idea at least. It was really overkill but I figured "What the hell"


Off to the back yard. This thing cabinet is huge. There was a lot of fussing over getting the thing rewired and the motor set back up. I ended up buying a new motor (well new old stock) off of eBay for it, and it turned out that there really wasn't a problem with it. The dang thing just power cycles when the impeller is exposed outside of the housing. When it is in the housing it works just fine. The gloves ended up being really funny. I was looking high and low for a set of gloves that had an 11" opening for this thing and ended up using a set I got off of Amazon. The funny thing was, had I turned the gloves inside out, I would have seen the brand name and saved myself a whole lot of time. (They were the same gloves) 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13509684261556.jpg)

Can anyone help me identify this cabinet? Really I'm looking for a replacement for the glass. (Otherwise I'll just ginny something up...

Well it turns out that I was the victim of some creative stencil usage. I was looking an "I'm Da Blast" cabinet. The cabinet is actually an AD-A-Blast cabinet from Industrial Cleaning Machines Inc.  http://www.icminc.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=89 (http://www.icminc.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=89)  
Just got off the phone with one of their service guys (Larry, a delightful individual that was incredibly helpful) and got all of the specifics on what I was dealing with and how I really should have the cabinet set up. I'll have to check the numbers when I get home but I think I'm using a 3/8" nozzle when I should be using a 1/4". While they do have a great product the replacement parts aren't cheap. It's going to cost me $220 for a new glass piece, gasket, nozzle, and air jet. I guess I can't complain since, even with the motor, gloves, and switch, I'm still into it WELL less than I would have been going out and buying a cabinet.

With the way it is set up now, my air compressor can only keep up at 65psi and the media surges when I blast. According to the AD-A-Blast literature a 3/8" nozzle would have a 43CFM air requirement at 70psi. This would kind of make sense for the performance I am getting out of my compressor.  

Turns out the compressor pump I have is a Campbell Housefield model 3VB59. It has a rating of 14,3 CFM at 90psi. But with as hard as I've been running it I think it's well below that figure. I ordered a gasket kit and some new rings for the high and low pressure pistons. I'm thinking I'm going to roll the dice on the valve plate since it's a $130 part and it comes with the gaskets it needs should I have to replace it anyway.

Thoughts?

 Your compressor is a single stage? You really need a 2 stage or screw compressor for larger blasting.

Quote from: JMR on October 23, 2012, 08:09:44 PM
Your compressor is a single stage? You really need a 2 stage or screw compressor for larger blasting.

Oh no, it's a two stage all right. That's why it's got a high pressure and a low pressure piston. The 5hp 60gal single stage compressor was the one it replaced. Even still, with the nozzel setup I've got I need more air than it is currently providing.

I suppose while I'm figuring out the whole getting more air running in the cabinet thing. Well that and the fact that my dremel is still toast. How about some more details on some of the coating stuff. Since the piston tops are (or at least will be) coated with the thermal barrier I need to do the combustion chambers and valve faces as well. Otherwise the extra heat that normally would be absorbed by the pistons will have to be dissipated by the head. Not that is necessarily too much for it to handle, but a balanced system would be ideal.

Here is getting the head all masked so I am only blasting the part I want to.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG0986Medium.jpg)

All blasted and ready to have the coating applied.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG0993Medium.jpg)


And applying the coating.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG0994Medium.jpg)

And while I'm at it here are the pistons that I failed horribly trying to get the thermal barrier off...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13509683635791.jpg)

I'm learning a ton here. I've always thought that inside the engine was "best" to be bright and clean metal. The coatings are fascinating.

As someone who had a chunk of exhaust valve split off (Honda V45 at 100K miles) I'm very interested in how the coatings are going to help the engine parts to last longer. The piston engine has had a century of continuous development, and they certainly are getting better.

Living in an apartment without a garage, I have no place to do more than change the oil myself. I'm living the dream vicariously, keep up with the pictures even if you think it's trivial.

And, thank you.

Quote from: skymasteres on October 24, 2012, 12:46:55 AM

And while I'm at it here are the pistons that I failed horribly trying to get the thermal barrier off...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13509683635791.jpg)

What are you going to do with the pistons?  Use them as is? Re-coat? Gasp, buy new ones?

Curious.

Dan

Quote from: DoD#663 on October 24, 2012, 11:14:41 AM
I'm learning a ton here. I've always thought that inside the engine was "best" to be bright and clean metal. The coatings are fascinating.

As someone who had a chunk of exhaust valve split off (Honda V45 at 100K miles) I'm very interested in how the coatings are going to help the engine parts to last longer. The piston engine has had a century of continuous development, and they certainly are getting better.

Living in an apartment without a garage, I have no place to do more than change the oil myself. I'm living the dream vicariously, keep up with the pictures even if you think it's trivial.

And, thank you.

You are quite welcome. Seeing as this has turned into a project of exploration and discovery into the possibilities of what can be done while rebuilding an engine, I like finding out things I don't know. (Such as the comment about working the pistons a little bit to help stave off detonation. (Makes sense but didn't dawn on me) There are a lot of things like that, where in spite of your education or the vast amount of information that you have on the subject you still miss something simple. (Especially considering some of the hand work I've been doing on this thing, a little piston smoothing is nothing.)

Dan, nooooo no no no no. I have way too much invested in these brand new unused pistons to even think about tossing them and starting over again. In spite of the hours I've spent scraping the damn things with razor blades...  No, I WILL get these things cleaned up and re-coated.
I've kind of hit a speed bump in this project. I still have some stripping to do on the upper case, but I have repairs that I need to do on the compressor and sandblaster. Kinda stuck till the parts come in. I think I might branch off and see about making a luggage bracket for these saddle bags that I've got.
I did manage to get the tail section and the other handlebar on though. Made me feel like I was making real progress. Of course now the thing has been apart SOOOO long, I'm having difficulty remembering where everything goes. (Took a few tries to get the swingarm put on right.) Case in point, I think I lost the two lower bolts that hold the rear subframe on.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438382284574.jpg)

It only makes me feel like, while I am making progress, I'm really not getting anywhere. (Sucker has been sitting like that for a month) But it is nice to be able to sit on it and "pretend" to ride it. (Make revving noises and the like...)

Just to give you an idea of where the sandblaster is right now. Here are some pictures of the nozzle parts disassembled. The air nozzle actually looks great, it's the the carbide one that is showing wear. (Looks like the PO had turned it several times to keep the wear even.)  I think I'm going to see how the rebuilt compressor works and see if I really need to get the next smaller nozzle set.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/IMAG2290Medium.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/IMAG2289Medium.jpg)

And progress is slow as molasses on the pistons. Here is a close up of what is coming off....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/IMAG2288Medium.jpg)

Starting to look like an Fj  :good2:,, like your seat mate, is it a modded standard , or corbin

Quote from: fj11.5 on October 25, 2012, 01:10:08 AM
Starting to look like an Fj  :good2:,, like your seat mate, is it a modded standard , or corbin

It's an older Corbin Gunfighter. Bought it from a fellow named Troy down in Irvine CA. He had just been in a fairly serious accident on his FJ. I think here is a member on this board.

Damn, man.  If the coating is being that stubborn then just LEAVE IT ON!.  :-)

DavidR.

Quote from: SlowOldGuy on October 25, 2012, 05:59:04 PM
Damn, man.  If the coating is being that stubborn then just LEAVE IT ON!.  :-)

DavidR.

David, I know I know. I will be removingin as much as I can this way then re-blasting and re-coating. (I want to make sure all of the pistons are even)

Quote from: skymasteres on October 26, 2012, 03:46:40 PM
David, I know I know. I will be removingin as much as I can this way then re-blasting and re-coating. (I want to make sure all of the pistons are even)

The blasting should at least take care of any sharp angles that would have contributed to preignition.

These coatings are new to me, at what temp do they cure in the oven? I ask because of tempering, although I guess that any heat tempering would be lost in an engine anyway.

Quote from: DoD#663 on October 29, 2012, 01:28:00 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on October 26, 2012, 03:46:40 PM
David, I know I know. I will be removingin as much as I can this way then re-blasting and re-coating. (I want to make sure all of the pistons are even)

The blasting should at least take care of any sharp angles that would have contributed to preignition.

These coatings are new to me, at what temp do they cure in the oven? I ask because of tempering, although I guess that any heat tempering would be lost in an engine anyway.

Cure temp is 350f well under what would do any damage.

One again, on to the breach....
Things have been really hectic lately with work and I have not had the time I would like to devote to pushing things along. That being said how about some more behind the scenes action with this project?
I already mentioned that I've got the 3.5" wheel up front and I am keeping the stock four piston brakes, for now. I wanted to go after some of the performance potential the chassis has since I am already in so deep with the engine.
At this point, 3.5" wide front wheel... Check.  Racetech Cartridge Valve Emulators in freshly rebuilt forks... Check. Fresh steering stem and wheel bearings... Check.  16x3.5" rear wheel... Uhhh, no? This will not due. Off to the forums! After a minimum of digging I discovered a literal wealth of information on what the procedure for this is and what models to look for with respect to donor parts.  Of course I didn't have to search long because wouldn't you know, John who I got the carbs, forks and cams from, also had a rear wheel off of a 1993 GSXR 750. A 17x5.5" wheel seemed like just the ticket. So the thing shows up and... well I just can't say what color it is...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMG_1263.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMG_1262.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMG_1264.jpg)

The good news is it showed up bare with no shoe on so I could move right into sandblasting the thing.  As you would expect, it was way too big to fit in my little sandblasting cabinet. I'm telling you, sandblasting out in the open is a really messy endeavor. Especially when you are using one of those mini cabinet guns and you are moving air at 100psi in a pencil thing stream. It just throws sand everywhere. That and you have to wear a respirator and completely cover up or you feel like you've been buried in the sand all day.  Of course it's nice to have people who don't know any better and are really excited at the prospect of getting to "Sandblast"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/13522360236080.jpg)
She got over it pretty quickly, but to her credit though she did finish the wheel. I decided that I wanted to use regular paint since I was trying to color match the front rim. I wanted to be able to remove the paint with a stripper later if I decided it wasn't a close enough match. 
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438383888804.jpg)

With the rim taken care of I could start messing around with how I wanted to get the reaction arm for the brake set up. Since I had the stock reaction arm for the GSXR caliper and it was aluminum I decided to use it.  I like the idea that when you get all of the little things "right" they add up to make a bid difference. Since the GSXR rear brake caliper was underslung I kept it that way, like the idea of every little bit to lower the CG, and needed to weld a lug onto the swingarm for it to bolt to. But alas, with all of my tools I cannot weld aluminum. Off to Off Vintage motorcycle to have their pro welder put one on.
Here is the wheel mocked up without the tire on.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438383760133.jpg)
Mocking it up at the shop trying to get the height of the lug right.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438383587542.jpg)

Got the height right
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438383479101.jpg)
Here's a close up
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438383032428.jpg)
The fun part. (Welding)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13438382944427.jpg)

And that's all there was too it. Now it's back to battling the frosted glass on the cabinet and mulling over when I should rebuild the air compressor...

Quote from: skymasteres on November 09, 2012, 07:23:06 PM
  So the thing shows up and... well I just can't say what color it is...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMG_1263.jpg)
 

That would be periwinkle.

What say, Monkey Ranger?

Leon

Yep, well documented at the WCR in 2011...

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5112/5813707898_e6a1fd2869.jpg)

I was told that with that color wheel I was never gonna get a date......

Quote from: skymasteres on November 09, 2012, 07:23:06 PM
... well I just can't say what color it is...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/IMG_1263.jpg)

Monkey, that sure is reminiscent of your periwinkle, I believe my wife coined it as, rear wheel of a couple years ago...

On the glass for the cabinet, take the old glass down to any glass shop and have them cut you several pieces of safety glass. It is usually cheaper if you have them make you a few while you are having them cut, I keep a couple. Make sure it is safety glass with the plastic between the two panes. If not when it gets broken the pieces falling into the cabinet are like a guillotine.

I never have an issue with the beads fogging the glass (anymore), but they do get broken on occasion and it is nice to have a spare on hand at 10pm when you are working...

To keep the glass from fogging, 12-15 years ago I went to my local auto body supply and bought a roll of clear paint protection plastic. This is the same stuff they make clear car bras out of and will absorb the beads better than the glass. I am getting low after all of these years and only a single piece of glass (other than a couple of broken ones), I would look on eBay and you can find some pretty affordable rolls.

My new machine I bought earlier this year has a built in Mylar plastic roll to protect the glass. It is working well, but when I get the point of buying those rolls, I am going to see which way is cheaper; Mylar or the eBay clear plastic that I can stick on the glass.

Randy - RPM

EDIT: damn...you guys are fast tonight...

I wonder if the anti graphite films we use for our bus windows will add life to your glass. I will grab some scraps and send them off to you both for testing. Tough stuff. Nothing less than 10 mils and its a film that can be replaced.

Thats the good thing with these GSXR rims, they are SO close to the FJ pattern, no one would really know.  :good2:

Hoo Roo
Ray

Quote from: FJmonkey on November 09, 2012, 08:21:54 PM
I wonder if the anti graphite films we use for our bus windows will add life to your glass. I will grab some scraps and send them off to you both for testing. Tough stuff. Nothing less than 10 mils and its a film that can be replaced.

You know, I ended up getting four rolls of a Lexan like material that is designed for protecting the glass in blast cabinets. (4 rolls was their minimum order side. But, at $8 a roll not bad.)
I was told by Larry that the newer industrial cabinets have a frame that holds a piece of this stuff in place, and when you wear it out you just plop a new piece in. I figured if it works for them why not me?
Here is just how badly the glass was frosted over. (The cracks aside from the middle one were caused by me trying to get the dang thing out past the molding strip.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13522278812961.jpg)

I figured I could use a piece of the protectant as a temporary window. The take held it in there for a few hours, but it fell in the next day. Seemed to work okay so I got started on building a frame for it that would allow it to sit over the replacement window and gasket.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13522278939212.jpg)

Here is my quickie solution. Some ¾" square tube scrap cut with 90 degree corners and jigged up.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13526530779491.jpg)

Welded all together using a window pane latch to hold it in place.  Let me tell you, you don't want to try and MIG zinc. Didn't realize the latch wasn't steel... Man, that stuff kind of explodes when you try to weld it... (Ended up just using some self tapping screws.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13526531406437.jpg)

Hinges were trimmed then welded onto the frame.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13526531093814.jpg)

I had to futz with it for a bit to get it where I wanted it. But after that was done, I got the hinges bolted into place and the latch bracket welded on.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13526531293426.jpg)

The next step was to get some weather stripping and put that in so that the frame would be able to seal the plastic to the cabinet. This ended up working out better than I expected and made me wonder if I even needed to replace the window at all...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13527020215810.jpg)

Here is a shot from the outside showing the plastic film in place. (Oh yeah, I reused the first piece of film just to see how it worked. I kind of like the fact that I don't loose so much of the viewing area to the gasket. )

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13527020324891.jpg)

What do you guys think?

Getting XJR1250 cylinders onto a FJ1200 upper crankcase isn't just a drop in mod.
//NOTE! THE INTERNAL WEBS THAT RUN FRONT TO BACK NEED TO BE CLEARANCED!!!
This was something I'd wished I known before I did this. Would have saved me from removing about another mm from the outer two cylinder bores that I didn't have to...
Basically all I did was position the cylinders, then scribe the liners outline on the upper case.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13506132657189.jpg)

I tried using some Prussian blue, but it seemed like it was more trouble than it was worth. (Should have used layout dye, but I didn't have any) I can't stress strongly enough what a difference it makes having a good set of tungsten carbide burs for doing this kind of thing. It makes material removal effortless. (To the point that you have to be REALLY careful not to remove too much)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13506132428647.jpg)

Here is a sequence of pics showing me hogging out the outer cylinder recess. (This was while I was trying to figure out where it was touching and removing material everywhere I could see a mark from contact)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13506132743620.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13506132834911.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13506132942762.jpg)

Everything was going so well the inner two liners are almost perfectly matched while the outer two have a little bit of a gap. Here is what I'd wished I'd known...

BEHOLD! The reason the cylinders wouldn't fit!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13506133338926.jpg)

There was a small amount of material to be removed here and presto. It fits!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13506133458407.jpg)

The finished product. Now it's ready to get stripped down the rest of the way. (I started blasting it and realized I hadn't make the cylinders fit.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13506133132694.jpg)

Quote from: skymasteres on November 21, 2012, 12:29:11 PM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13506133458407.jpg)

Is that a crack?

DavidR.

Quote from: SlowOldGuy on November 21, 2012, 12:47:17 PM

Is that a crack?

DavidR.

My goodness. I read that and was like "WHAT!!!" Started racing around looking at my high res copies of the images trying to make sure that that isn't a crack. (Don't know how I could have missed that.) I'll double check tonight, but as near as I can tell it's a peice or a brush or something laying on the case. (Fingers crossed)

It has a shadow, not a crack.

Looks like part from a brush to me.

If you really wanted to get fancy, you could port those holes, rounding the edges so that you'd further decrease pumping losses.  Not sure there's any point in an engine below F1 level racing, but there ya go.  :)


While you're going crazy with the metalworkings in there, are you going to spend any time playing with the shift drum?  Always wanted to try it, but just haven't had the balls....er.. time.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/Gixx1300R/Quickshift2.jpg)

(Obviously not an FJ example.)

Okay, yeah. Definitely not a crack.

Andy, what did they do to that shift drum? I mean, what is the point drilling all of those holes? Is it just to lighten it?

Okay, now I've reached a bit of a road block. I took my air compressor pump off and apart and discovered that I had the wrong rebuild kit. Can anybody here give me a hand with identifying it?

It has a first stage piston that's 4.75" (well 4.735 according to my caliper) in diameter and a second stage piston that is 2.5" in diameter. There are three wrings on both of the pistons. The interesting thing is the rings have an overlap at the ends which should allow for better sealing and less leaking.

That being said, both the rings and the cylinder bores are like mirror smooth. I got told that once the rings wear to the point that you can no longer see the horizontal machining marks that they need to replaced.

Here is the pump taken off of the tank.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13537820281607.jpg)

Here is the valve plate and the top of the cylinder bore.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13537820096246.jpg)

Here are the piston's themselves, look at how much soot (or something like it) there is on the high pressure piston.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13537819996405.jpg)

Here are a couple shots of the pistons

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13537819887384.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13537818860832.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13537818682031.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13537818537020.jpg)

The rings themselves measure 0.092" thick.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

I had to take this much out for the 1500 OrientExpress block, liking your work man, keep it up. (popcorn)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc122/cabletietom/Katboredoutcases3.jpg)

Okay, well I finally got the right rings for the air compressor and it should be going back together tonight. (It was amazing how long it took to get the cylinders honed)

I have a question. Rany mentioned in another thread that there was an update to the started clutch to make it less prone to failure but the link he had is no good anymore.
It's supposed to be a part from an XJR. Any ideas?

Okay, so after considerable digging I finally found the information I was looking for. The updated starter part if off of an XJR1300 and uses a full roller sprag vs a three roller spring loaded system. The part number for the set is 4KG-15580-01, and Randy can get them in. See the attached diagrams.

FJ1200 Starter Clutch:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/XJR1300-StarterParts_Page_2.jpg)

XJR1300 Clutch:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/XJR1300-StarterParts_Page_1.jpg)

Here is another one for you. Without riding the motorcycle, does anyone know of an objective way to measure the wear on the gear "dogs" to see if you are at risk of having the "2nd gear issue"? The reason I am asking is, I didn't get to ride this motorcycle much due to its suspension being completely shot and with the burnt valve and poor ring seal it was WAY down on power. The point is, riding it to test is out. So now I'm left with measuring it.

Here are some pictures to show what I'm concerned about.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13589258072637.jpg)

Closer view of one of the dogs:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13589258274048.jpg)

Quote from: skymasteres on January 23, 2013, 10:07:34 AM
Here is another one for you. Without riding the motorcycle, does anyone know of an objective way to measure the wear on the gear "dogs" to see if you are at risk of having the "2nd gear issue"? The reason I am asking is, I didn't get to ride this motorcycle much due to its suspension being completely shot and with the burnt valve and poor ring seal it was WAY down on power. The point is, riding it to test is out. So now I'm left with measuring it.

Here are some pictures to show what I'm concerned about.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13589258072637.jpg)

Closer view of one of the dogs:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13589258274048.jpg)

Well bummer, hows how much I know. That's a picture of the wear on the third gear dogs...
I don't think RPMs gear undercutting will do anything for the input shaft...
Does anyone have a low milage transmission sitting around? :dash1:

You can undercut any/all gear pairs, and yes, it'll restore their function to better than new.  It does get expensive when you're talking about doing the entire trans though, and there are the upshift side and the downshift side also (though usually only roadracers spend the money to do the entire trans on both sides).

Quote from: andyb on January 23, 2013, 01:55:31 PM
You can undercut any/all gear pairs, and yes, it'll restore their function to better than new.  It does get expensive when you're talking about doing the entire trans though, and there are the upshift side and the downshift side also (though usually only roadracers spend the money to do the entire trans on both sides).

I have been mulling that over as I am researching getting gears cut. I do intent to track the machine, at Willow Springs here in Rosamond, periodically to better familiarize myself with riding a high performance motorcycle. That being said I have a tendency to pick up skills fairly quickly. ( Soloed in 10 hours, learned to snowboard in a day, kept up with a guy on a CBR990 using a VFR700 etc.) (Well the guy on the CBR would sprint away from me in the straights...) The point is I do see myself learning to get a lot more out of this motorcycle than my manga, but I don't know where the line is for "Road Racing" operation.

As it stands now I have been running down my options for getting my gears undercut. Here is what I have so far:

RC's Performance: $125 for second both sides, $225 for two gears both sides, and $250-275 for three both sides. (The variance is if I have a gear on a different shaft)

Spears Racing: Will do all five both sides with hard welding if required for $700-800

Fast By Gast:$375 all five gears both sides and maybe some extra if welding is required.

APE Racing: $306 for 4 out of 5 gears, one sided. (They don't include first) Extra if welding is required.

Have Paul at FBG do it.  Highly recommended, great work.  And first NEEDS to be done IMO.

I had FBG do 1st and 2nd for my FJ, may regret not getting them all done.

By looking at those prices, there is only one price listed that is probably close to being correct.

I have FBG do the transmissions I sell and I can tell you the price they quoted is cheaper than I pay as a FBG dealer and I have only one shaft done.

Plus, get ready to wait. I send in upwards of 15 transmissions a year and the fastest turn around I have ever had was 4 weeks. I also have multiple units done at one time since they are set up to cut and can cut three at once instead of one at a time.

If you are building a big engine, the low gears should be done and that includes 1st.

I also got your email and I will reply when i get back to the shop on Friday.

Randy - RPM

Quote from: andyb on January 24, 2013, 01:57:10 AM
Have Paul at FBG do it.  Highly recommended, great work.  And first NEEDS to be done IMO.

I had FBG do 1st and 2nd for my FJ, may regret not getting them all done.

X2!!!

Quote from: fj1289 on January 24, 2013, 08:23:15 AM

Quote from: andyb on January 24, 2013, 01:57:10 AM
Have Paul at FBG do it.  Highly recommended, great work.  And first NEEDS to be done IMO.

I had FBG do 1st and 2nd for my FJ, may regret not getting them all done.

X2!!!
I've had a bit of work done at FBG - always been happy with the service work and price. I've never been disappointed with the turn around time, but realize work like this normally takes time.

Don't hit the quote bottom when trying to modify your post  :dash2:

Quote from: racerrad8 on January 24, 2013, 02:18:21 AM
If you are building a big engine, the low gears should be done and that includes 1st.

Randy - RPM

Thanks Randy. Does going out to 82mm (1346cc) count as a "big engine" or is that more of a 1500cc thing? If so I'll get 1st done.

To everybody that rides these beasts and maybe pushese them here and there.

Do you guys really ever experince your FJ poping out of gear on a hard downshift when using the engine to brake? I don't really picture myself really whaleing on the downshifts that hard but if it happens in normal "spirited" riding it might be good to get the downshift sides cut... (Really on the fence about this one)

Quote from: skymasteres on January 24, 2013, 10:12:28 AM
Thanks Randy. Does going out to 82mm (1346cc) count as a "big engine" or is that more of a 1500cc thing? If so I'll get 1st done.

With the engine relatively stock in my 90, a hard launch from a dead stop could cause first to jump teeth.  Admittedly I was pushing it rather harder than almost any street rider would, but there you go (it was on a dragstrip, and only did it occasionally).

Quote from: skymasteres on January 24, 2013, 10:12:28 AM


To everybody that rides these beasts and maybe pushese them here and there.

Do you guys really ever experince your FJ poping out of gear on a hard downshift when using the engine to brake? I don't really picture myself really whaleing on the downshifts that hard but if it happens in normal "spirited" riding it might be good to get the downshift sides cut... (Really on the fence about this one)

i think i qualify to answer and yes my transmission is undercut both upshift and downshift..... the much larger displacement is capable of putting quite a load on the transmission.... i would do first, second and third.

my stock engine had the second gear problem and when i took it apart to repair i was totally surprised to find there really wasnt that much wear on either the dogs or windows as compared to the brand new gearset i had already purchased to have on hand for the repair......  the stock gearset was completely serviceable after undercutting.

I never had a problem with it popping out of gear on deceleration but i guess it really depends on how you downshift as to whether this could be a problem or not.   Simple fact is the problem isnt caused so much by the gears themselves but the shift forks bending from bodged shifts.... from the point the shift fork gets bent the dogs and windows dont fully interface and its a downhill slide towards popping out of gear.   The late models have improved shift forks but careless shifting can bend any shift fork to the point it will cause problems.

Once the gears are undercut properly they actually pull together instead of just being held together by the shift fork ... makes for a much stronger interface and IMO well worth the money to have done..... i mean why invest so much money into something and intentionally leave a known failure point intact?

KOokaloo!

Quote from: racerman_27410 on January 24, 2013, 03:39:07 PM

i think i qualify to answer and yes my transmission is undercut both upshift and downshift..... the much larger displacement is capable of putting quite a load on the transmission.... i would do first, second and third.

my stock engine had the second gear problem and when i took it apart to repair i was totally surprised to find there really wasnt that much wear on either the dogs or windows as compared to the brand new gearset i had already purchased to have on hand for the repair......  the stock gearset was completely serviceable after undercutting.

I never had a problem with it popping out of gear on deceleration but i guess it really depends on how you downshift as to whether this could be a problem or not.   Simple fact is the problem isnt caused so much by the gears themselves but the shift forks bending from bodged shifts.... from the point the shift fork gets bent the dogs and windows dont fully interface and its a downhill slide towards popping out of gear.   The late models have improved shift forks but careless shifting can bend any shift fork to the point it will cause problems.

Once the gears are undercut properly they actually pull together instead of just being held together by the shift fork ... makes for a much stronger interface and IMO well worth the money to have done..... i mean why invest so much money into something and intentionally leave a known failure point intact?

KOokaloo!

Thank you all for your feedback with respect to the gear undercutting. As much as I feel like I would like to send the transmission out to FBG and get the full service done on it, after talking with Randy, I think I am better off just using the local guys and having just the upshift sides of the dogs cut. Plus they'll give me the unassembled gears back so that I can coat them before final assembly.

Here's some more gear pron showing the condition of the dogs.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13594847545794.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13594851930662.jpg)

Here are the transmission shafts ready to be cut.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13594852147884.jpg)

And since I am getting first cut as well I had to get that into the shop too. (Of course I had already coated it, but that won't be a problem)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13594847774966.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13594847913277.jpg)

An update of sorts, I finally have all of the bearings I need so guess what?.... That's right, back to the garage for yet MORE coatings.
(This is turning into an obsession. I ended up buying a quart of this ceramic lubricant and boy does it go a long way...)
I have definitely reached the point of insanity because all of the little in consequential things are getting slathered in dry film lubricants and I'll maybe see a 1% benefit for all the trouble. Of course it gives me a way to convince myself that I'm making some sort of progress while I wait for the gears (Got told that it'll be a month)


My goodness, I almost forgot. (And you thought I was going to spare you yet more boring details of this build) I finally got my blast cabinet under control with respect to the ESD issue.
The dang thing kept shocking me every time I would try to blast bearings. At first I thought it was a grounding issue. I had just rewired my outlet box to provide 240v and 120v AC on a three connector cable so that eliminated the ground. Figured using the frame of the box which was grounded was enough. (Apparently not) Went out to Lowes and picked up an 8' copper clad grounding spike and drive that into the ground. (The hard packed caliche clay out here in the desert made that a real trip) STILL didn't solve the problem. Turned out it was a heck of a lot more simple than I thought.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13589257022020.jpg)

I had the cabinet grounded. I had the gun grounded. But I didn't have the PART grounded. When I was holding it in my hand I was getting shocked.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13589257261601.jpg)

After I attached a ground wire to the bearings I stopped getting shocked.

Here are the bearings ready to be coated:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13589257627983.jpg)

Having the coating applied:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13589257405282.jpg)

And ready for curing:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13589257968886.jpg)

Thanks again for the help and stay tuned for the next episode of "What's getting coated"...

Quote from: skymasteres on January 29, 2013, 05:29:31 PM
Thank you all for your feedback with respect to the gear undercutting. As much as I feel like I would like to send the transmission out to FBG and get the full service done on it, after talking with Randy, I think I am better off just using the local guys and having just the upshift sides of the dogs cut.

I just want to clarify the above quote.

I did not recommend the use of any specific transmission cutting company. Just as I stated below, I believe there is only one true price there that is all inclusive for doing the complete transmission, all five speeds with both sides of the cogs listed in this thread. The decision to use the "local" shop was solely a personal one, and not recommended by me.

Quote from: racerrad8 on January 24, 2013, 02:18:21 AM
By looking at those prices, there is only one price listed that is probably close to being correct.

I have FBG undercut the transmissions I sell and I can tell you the price they quoted is cheaper than I pay as a FBG dealer and I have only one shaft done. Also based on all but one price welding is extra. Well every trans I have ever sent in had to be welded, so the quoted prices are based on getting the product in the door.

Plus, get ready to wait. I send in upwards of 15 transmissions a year and the fastest turn around I have ever had was 4 weeks. I also have multiple units done at one time since they are set up to cut and can cut three at once instead of one at a time.

If you are building a big engine, the low gears should be done and that includes 1st.

I also got your email and I will reply when i get back to the shop on Friday.

Randy - RPM

I am a FBG dealer and inquired with the owner Paul Gast about the pricing noted in this thread and it was confirmed that dealer pricing would be extended based on "active" military service proof. The price quote by FBG is strictly for undercutting of the gears only. No welding which I also addressed in the above quote.

I stock the undercut FJ transmission with both sides of 1st, 2nd & 3rd gears completed. This includes the welding of the cogs before the under cutting. The reason I send in multiple shafts at a time is so they do not have to set-up for just one and can cut three shafts without having to set-up for a different version.

The reason I stock this item is because of the long turn around times. In the response I received back from Paul he said, they were 6-8 weeks out on trans cutting which I have found to be the "normal" turn around time when I send in my transmissions for stock.

I just wanted to clarify that I am a Fast by Gast authorized dealer, supplying undercut transmissions for the Yamaha FJ and have not recommended any other vendor.

Randy - RPM

Good grief. That should keep the lawyers happy.  :flag_of_truce:

Yeah, Randy didn't steer me away from FBG. That's for sure. Patrick and Paul were both extremely professional and knowledgeable. I just decided that since I am doing something well outside of the norm to go with the local guys so that I can get the transmission put back together. (That and I'd save myself a lot of shipping both ways) It's not that I didn't want to use FBG, it's just that I felt I was better off staying local. APE is right down the street from me and it's not like there are numbers for them to grind off on the transmission...

And we're back! I know it's getting old and everyone is getting tired of seeing the parts... But just in case you aren't, there's more.  Up for coating today are the camshafts, cam gears, piston pin bores, and shift drum. I missed doing the piston pin bores the first time around and figured it would be a good idea since it's an aluminum bore with a tool steel pin riding in it.
Here are the cam shafts. I got these used so there is minor scoring on the journal bearings but, since I am adding the ceramic lubricant, I am not worried about it.
Here are the cam gears
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13613100356058_zpsb4b7726a.jpg)

And the camshafts themselves
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13613100235077_zpsb1165237.jpg)

The thing that I found pretty neat is just how much material is added when they change the stock profile of the cam lobes.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13613099228094_zps5cb2c314.jpg)
All masked and ready for blasting
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13613099607856_zps81b4fadc.jpg)

Here is everything getting etched. Interesting note, the camshafts are hollow with oil holes drilled in some of the bearing surfaces. You'll want to make sure that you seal these off before doing any type of blasting so that you don't end up with grit where you don't want it. (Like inside a grand new engine...) I used a candle to drip wax into these holes to seal them. It keeps the grit out, and disappears when I bake the coating on.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13613098806281_zpse091187c.jpg)

Here are the pistons all masked up to get the pin bores coated. The dang things there a pain in the rear to get all taped up to that I didn't blast or spray where I didn't want to...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13613098930872_zpsa3d7fbba.jpg)
Another round of curing in the oven
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13613098207917_zpsb9f4b743.jpg)

So, I pursued the suggestion that I lighten my shift drum. After looking it over and hypothesizing a little I made a guess that using a ¼" drill bit would provide the largest practical hole size to use in lightening the drum. This would allow for two rows of holes depending on where they are.

Here is a shot of the almost initial weight of the drum. (I got carried away and drilled a hole before weighing it)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13613098053056_zps1f27730f.jpg)

About halfway through this process I ended up burning out the motor in my drill press. It's never a good thing when it suddenly slows down, "pops", then bursts into flames. Funny thing is it was listed as a 1/3 HP motor but I doubt it.  Since it was getting warm when I used it to hone out the air compressor's cylinders I added a fan to blow air across the motor. This apparently wasn't enough.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Equiptment/13613097906565_zps1621fbd8.jpg)
(You can just barely see the residual smoke in this picture after I extinguished the flames using compressed air)

After I ordered and new motor and it showed up I was shocked to see the size difference between this made in china 1/3hp 9 amp motor, and it's 1/3hp 11 amp replacement. I think it might have to do with the fact that I made sure to get a motor with a 1.25 service factor to handle more abusive treatment...(Pic later)
So, back in business and working on drilling the crap out of this thing. I started out with a center punch and laid out divots where I figured I wanted the holes to be. Many of the spots are pinged twice because I didn't get it right with the first stroke.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13613097214392_zps2f9f0197.jpg)

Here you can see the progress. It is becoming increasingly obvious that I was a little optimistic on my hole spacing and backed off in favor of structural integrity. (i.e. I chickened out)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13613097118051_zps7ceb7c66.jpg)

The finished product. Well nearly finished anyway. I want to go back and chamfer the edges of the holes. The cool thing is I managed an almost exactly 2oz weight reduction (56.4g). I know it doesn't sound like much, but it felt significant as I held the drum by its bearing and spun it with my fingers during various stages of the lightening process. (It went from being somewhat balanced, to horrible imbalanced, to balanced pretty darn well...)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13613096980840_zps65c7d8d0.jpg)

I'm still eagerly awaiting getting my gears back from APE, but in the mean time I still have plenty to do. 

Quote from: skymasteres on February 21, 2013, 01:41:41 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13613099228094_zps5cb2c314.jpg)
Interesting note, the camshafts are hollow with oil holes drilled in some of the bearing surfaces. You'll want to make sure that you seal these off before doing any type of blasting so that you don't end up with grit where you don't want it. (Like inside a grand new engine...)

You really should remove the plugs and clean the internal portion of the cams. When I receive back the cams I have Mega-Cycle grind for me, they remove the plugs and replace them with allen head plugs.

You can find the stock plugs here; Camshaft Plug (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Head%3ACP)

If they did not remove the plugs when the cams were welded and ground, they need to be cleaned. Well, they need to be cleaned even if they weren't ground. I remove all the plugs from cams I put into a rebuild engine and clean them with a barrel brush.

Randy - RPM

PS. - You probably should have coated the cam thrust flange as well as the journals.

Quote from: racerrad8 on February 21, 2013, 02:55:21 PM
You really should remove the plugs and clean the internal portion of the cams. When I receive back the cams I have Mega-Cycle grind for me, they remove the plugs and replace them with allen head plugs.

You can find the stock plugs here; Camshaft Plug (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Head%3ACP)

If they did not remove the plugs when the cams were welded and ground, they need to be cleaned. Well, they need to be cleaned even if they weren't ground. I remove all the plugs from cams I put into a rebuild engine and clean them with a barrel brush.

Randy - RPM

PS. - You probably should have coated the cam thrust flange as well as the journals.

Well I'll be. How do I remove the plugs without messing up the cams? (These don't look like you can just spin them like engine block freeze plugs.)
And now for the stupid question. Just which surface is the "thrust Flange" anyway?

You're right, I can't believe how much material has been added to those lobes. It looks like its gone from a stock street cam to one you would use in a 1/4 mile drag car,  :pardon:

Well, this is a surprise indeed. (Less than 4 weeks) I got my gears back from APE racing all ready to be coated. The only bad news is they charge sales tax on their labor so the bill ended up being $400. (Still not sure how that works, but I'll look into it later)  Overall I am pleased with the way everything lines up. There was no welding required to make the cuts so I at least have that going for me. Hopefully I won't regret not getting the downshift sides of the gears cut but time will tell.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13621537424820_zpsfe0179af.jpg)

Here is a question. In the image above there, I know it's hard to see, the bushing that is to the left of the fixed gear on the input shaft is frozen. The oil hole is lining up right now, but I wonder if I should worry about trying to remove it and clean up the mating surfaces... Thoughts?

Time for a little update. First let me say that the undercutting on the gears looks great.
The tolerances on the mating surfaces are extremely tight with everything meshing as it should.
No matter which way I engage the cut surfaces they all line up perfectly with no gaps.
Here are some shots of the mating surfaces.  (56k Modem users beware...)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622049486515_zps1265a636.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622048957761_zps5fc38a1c.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622049059102_zps7675ba27.jpg)
 
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622049181793_zpsa9e0343b.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622049585146_zps0a443822.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622049681157_zps91cac269.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622049776388_zpsee529142.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622049891789_zps5b83673d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622050342081_zps964c4b6d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622050435512_zps41377bdb.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622050567023_zpseb347603.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13622048852210_zpsd0269e5d.jpg)

I know, probably overkill on the pics, but it illustrates the point well.
Next I set up to get the gears coated with Cermalube. (Kind of the whole point of getting the gears back unassembled.
So I could coat them and bring them back for assembly) I really didn't like the idea of putting an oil retaining lubricant on
the freshly cut surfaces of the dogs so I used wax to fill the pockets in the gears and q-tips (I know, high tech right?)
to clean off the coating on the protruding dogs.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13630277310621_zps8d27ab8e.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13630278200592_zps2a9aaa87.jpg)

After curing the wax melted off leaving just the residue that was on the surface.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13630278713745_zps66d41d1c.jpg)

So, once I get the transmission assembled I'll be mostly set for the reassembly. Which brings me to the class participation part of this post.
Does anyone have a list of the O-rings/seals that should be replaced with new when an engine is to be reassembled? I was looking at ordering
the parts and as far as I can tell it's the O-rings for the oil galley plugs, the oil pump O-rings, and the case gasket. Do any of you guys know what
sizes the O-rings are? (I'd rather get them from the local hardware store than pay $3.75 PER O-ring from Yamaha... )

Quote from: skymasteres on March 11, 2013, 03:00:29 PM
Does anyone have a list of the O-rings/seals that should be replaced with new when an engine is to be reassembled? I was looking at ordering
the parts and as far as I can tell it's the O-rings for the oil galley plugs, the oil pump O-rings, and the case gasket. Do any of you guys know what
sizes the O-rings are? (I'd rather get them from the local hardware store than pay $3.75 PER O-ring from Yamaha... )

Ping Randy, He'll know what you need off the top of his head, and be able to send them to you toot-sweet and cheap.

Dan

Quote from: Dan Filetti on March 11, 2013, 03:08:12 PM

Ping Randy, He'll know what you need off the top of his head, and be able to send them to you toot-sweet and cheap.

Dan

:lol: :lol: :biggrin: :biggrin:  I thought I was the only one who said toot-sweet, lol, good one Dan!

Quote from: skymasteres on March 11, 2013, 03:00:29 PM
I'd rather get them from the local hardware store than pay $3.75 PER O-ring from Yamaha... )

With the energy you've personally put into this, the coating/stripping/re-coating is a great example, I think I'd buy the OEM part from Randy...  or you could save $10.00 and cost yourself a fortune.  What am I missing?

Frank

Quote from: Flynt on March 11, 2013, 11:27:31 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on March 11, 2013, 03:00:29 PM
I'd rather get them from the local hardware store than pay $3.75 PER O-ring from Yamaha... )

With the energy you've personally put into this, the coating/stripping/re-coating is a great example, I think I'd buy the OEM part from Randy...  or you could save $10.00 and cost yourself a fortune.  What am I missing?

Frank

For lack of a better term call it stubbornness. Or maybe it's because I'm a cheap bugger who can't
stand paying 100 times the value for stupid parts. 

I went and ordered the o-rings for the inside the case parts anyway.:flag_of_truce: But I feel like it's $16 wasted.
I refuse to order the yamaha o-rings for the galley plugs. If my standard 9 cent ones hold I see no
reason to spend another $10. If they don't, one I'll be REALLY surprised, and two I'll just spend the $10.

I have some experience in machining and I just can't see how the Yamaha o-rings are going to perform so much
better than standard o-rings that they justify charging $3.55 for a 15 cent o-ring. I compared both the original
and the standard 70 durometer o-ring and, for the same size, the only difference is the Yamaha rings are more
like a 40 or 50 durometer rubber. (not as hard) Now, I can see this making a difference if you had two relatively
unsupported surfaces where the material could flex. Thus allowing the shape of the part to become distorted and
perhaps compromise sealing surfaces elsewhere.  But, in the case of these particular o-rings are well supported
and I just don't see how they would cause problems. That being said, I chickened out, caved, bent over, grabbed
my ankles...., took out my wallet, and bought the damn things...

Here is the oil pump with the o-ring positions marked.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631464465195_zpsb8c136a0.jpg)

Did I mention that I REALLY buggered up the original bolts that hold the oil pump together? Well yeah, it's toast. But on the bright side I got to use the drill press more on the oil pump to make room for the 10mm socket. (Needed to drive the replacement fasteners) (M6x55 for those that are interested)

And here is the case where the oil pump goes in.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631465008919_zpsf5dbe93c.jpg)

Here are the bolts that secure the oil pump to the case. (They seem to provide plenty of clamping force)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631465482921_zpsc0b7c03f.jpg)

It'll be a few days before they're in. I still have to get the coating on the cylinder head done so it's all good.

Here is the oil pump all taken apart and having the same coating process applied to the rotors and case.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631464225773_zps2803feed.jpg)

Of particular note, if you do take one of these apart, THIS dowel goes HERE! Gosh it took me a lot of looking and wondering why I had an extra piece before I figured that one out. (It was late and I didn't have the leftover coating burnished out of the hole it went in....)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631464658466_zpsd74bd425.jpg)

Quote from: skymasteres on March 12, 2013, 11:53:24 PM

Quote from: Flynt link=topic=7691.msg80190#msg80190 date=13630
62451With the energy you've personally put into this, the coating/stripping/re-coating is a great example, I think I'd buy the OEM part from Randy...  or you could save $10.00 and cost yourself a fortune.  What am I missing?

Frank

For lack of a better term call it stubbornness. Or maybe it's because I'm a cheap bugger who can't
stand paying 100 times the value for stupid parts.

Well, let's see...

The first issue with any Yamaha o-ring is they are metric. I have yet to find a local hardware store, including the one owned by a good friend of mine that stocks the correct size.

The second issue, I could have supplied you all with genuine Yamaha o-rings, three for the oil pump, the case split o-ring and all three galley plug o-rings for $16.39 plus shipping and you would have had them in two days.

Oh well...

Randy - RPM

Quote from: racerrad8 on March 13, 2013, 05:04:19 AM

Well, let's see...

The first issue with any Yamaha o-ring is they are metric. I have yet to find a local hardware store, including the one owned by a good friend of mine that stocks the correct size.

The second issue, I could have supplied you all with genuine Yamaha o-rings, three for the oil pump, the case split o-ring and all three galley plug o-rings for $16.39 plus shipping and you would have had them in two days.

Oh well...

Randy - RPM

Randy, I'm not a complete dumbass... (Well not always)  :wacko2:

I am fortunate enough to have a local hardware store that stocks both metric and standard o-rings.
(Made it REALLY easy to match things up.) Of course I call the little hardware store the 'Magic' hardware
store because the place is like a Mary Poppins bag. It's just chock full of more stuff than you would think
possible for such a small place.

I actually did a quick search on your site a few days ago and didn't see the o-rings listed. Yesterday I
happened to be walk by a Yamaha dealer (was getting a key cut for a Honda and stumbled onto the place)
I figured what the hell, I was getting feedback that I'm an idiot for not getting the 'right' o-rings so I went
in and ordered them.  They'll be here in 5 days worst case and it cost me $16.08.

Alright, on the bright side I did get the XRJ starter clutch rigmarole worked out with Randy.
(He was good enough to sell me a used assembly out of one of his engines)

There are a few important differences between the two parts. Most importantly, but the least evident visually is
the difference in the diameter of the surface that the sprag grips on. For the FJ starter clutch it's 1.86" in diameter,
for the XJR it's 1.8". It doesn't sound like much, but that 0.06" difference prevents the FJ gear from working with
the XJR part and vice versa.

Here are the parts for comparison. The FJ1200 clutch on the left and the XRJ1300 clutch on the right. You'll note that
the FJ clutch has the three roller engagement vs eighteen for the XJR. The FJ part is also machined vs cast on the XJR.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631466879262_zps7ace6c90.jpg)

There is also a weight difference between the parts (Actually some significant weight differences)

Here is the FJ1200 starter clutch on the scale weighing in at a hefty 1115g.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631466278348_zpsf5868eff.jpg)

Compared to a fairly dainty 852g for the XJR1300 part. I'm fairly impressed that they managed a 9.3oz reduction considering the
increase in the clutch area. The diameter of the clutch is also reduced which in turn reduces the polar moment of inertia for the
part. I figure if they were the same weight, that alone would reduce the rotational inertia, but in addition to the weight reduction
it should help with spin up and down.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631466177477_zps160095f3.jpg)

This is something that surprised me. The FJ starter gear is actually lighter than the respective XJR part.
Here is the FJ starter gear.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631465954805_zpsbea97fb4.jpg)

The XJR gear below is actually about an ounce heavier than the FJ gear. Visually I can only figure the additional wight
comes from the extra material used in making the gear face wider. I'm not sure why they did this. When you look at the
gear from the edge you can see from the wear pattern that only half of the tooth is engaged anyway. (the half that is
added is the part that is untouched)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631466064046_zpsc85b5839.jpg)

I am actually considering chucking the thing in a lathe and turning down the gear so that it matches the stock one.
But I need to mock it up to make sure that I'm not cutting off something I need...
Here is the comaprison shot with respect to the width of the two starter clutch gears.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13644035811810_zpsbb2ba8b5.jpg)


Finally I also finally stopped screwing around with the transmission shift drum. I didn't like how the holes were so I went and
champhered all of the holes. A little more stress relieved and a little lighter.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631465574462_zps2e1909d5.jpg)

I remember working on a Muzzy Raptor with World Superbike kit parts....The shift drum (and clutch basket) were incredible. Everything milled out.....lots of hand work in them. To bad they were using shitty MTC pistons in that engine.

I always wanted to ask: What is the reason for drilling the shift drum? A couple of grams weight savings?

Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 23, 2013, 03:56:13 PM
I always wanted to ask: What is the reason for drilling the shift drum? A couple of grams weight savings?

Basically....yes. The lighter drum also rotates easier as there isn't as much mass to it. On race bikes it comes down to the details Pat. I smooth the shift fork tracks on the drum just to help the shift fork pegs to move easier

Quote from: JMR on March 23, 2013, 05:06:30 PM

Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 23, 2013, 03:56:13 PM
I always wanted to ask: What is the reason for drilling the shift drum? A couple of grams weight savings?

Basically....yes. The lighter drum also rotates easier as there isn't as much mass to it. On race bikes it comes down to the details Pat. I smooth the shift fork tracks on the drum just to help the shift fork pegs to move easier

It's all about the inertia. If you look at the mechanics of how the shift drum moves the shift forks you can see that the
shift lever that you engage with your foot only does half of the work completing the shift. The mechanism that completes
the shift is the spring loaded lever that rides on the petals of the shift drum. When you push the shift lever it loads up
that spring as the roller rides up the uphill side of the petal. When it passes the peak, the spring forces the roller down
the other side spinning the drum quickly moving the shift forks and gears respectively completing the shift.

The part of the process with the greatest impact, aside from friction, is the inertia of the drum that the spring and roller
has to ever come. If you lighten the drum, you decrease the energy required to rotate the drum...

Quote from: skymasteres on March 23, 2013, 05:53:38 PM
It's all about the inertia. If you look at the mechanics of how the shift drum moves the shift forks you can see that the
shift lever that you engage with your foot only does half of the work completing the shift. The mechanism that completes
the shift is the spring loaded lever that rides on the petals of the shift drum. When you push the shift lever it loads up
that spring as the roller rides up the uphill side of the petal. When it passes the peak, the spring forces the roller down
the other side spinning the drum quickly moving the shift forks and gears respectively completing the shift.

The part of the process with the greatest impact, aside from friction, is the inertia of the drum that the spring and roller
has to ever come. If you lighten the drum, you decrease the energy required to rotate the drum...

I love this mechanical engineering talk..... My native language...

Ok, thanks guys. I learned something today...gotta love this forum.

Quote from: skymasteres on March 23, 2013, 05:53:38 PM

It's all about the inertia. If you look at the mechanics of how the shift drum moves the shift forks you can see that the
shift lever that you engage with your foot only does half of the work completing the shift. The mechanism that completes
the shift is the spring loaded lever that rides on the petals of the shift drum. When you push the shift lever it loads up
that spring as the roller rides up the uphill side of the petal. When it passes the peak, the spring forces the roller down
the other side spinning the drum quickly moving the shift forks and gears respectively completing the shift.

The part of the process with the greatest impact, aside from friction, is the inertia of the drum that the spring and roller
has to ever come. If you lighten the drum, you decrease the energy required to rotate the drum...

Aren't the spring and the roller already designed to adequately provide that force?

I'm curious to know what difference you expect from it on the road.

Noel

Quote from: ribbert on March 24, 2013, 05:07:25 AM
Aren't the spring and the roller already designed to adequately provide that force?

I'm curious to know what difference you expect from it on the road.

Noel

Well, to be honest, I am not expecting any discernible improvement from this modification.
(something that could be said about a lot of the processes I have applied)
I think it might make the for snappier shifts and perhaps slightly less wear on the transmission.
But other than that nothing. I don't have enough experience with this modification to say otherwise.
It's more of a "I'm there already, I can, and why the heck not" kind of thing.

Okay, I guess I am going to have to cave to the crowd and say that I am thoroughly unimpressed with APE racing as a shop.
I mean, this is the second job that they have done for me that they have failed to complete to even, in my opinion, the most
basic level of satisfaction. The first one being the crankshaft balancing that they removed the crankshaft numbers without
writing them down. (This came up in the argument that I had with them and they said "that never happens. We ALWAYS write
those numbers down on the balance sheet)

So, I'll just go over the order of events and let you be the judge.

Warning, long boring narrative ahead...

Me: Brought my coated gears and shafts back to APE to get them reassembled. (Like previously agreed upon)
APE: Called me two days later. "Uhh, we need you to come in. There's a problem with your bushings"
Me:  I come in, leaving early from work, and look at the bushings.
APE: (Dustin) "They're not just slipping on like they're supposed to."
Me: What do you mean? I didn't coat the bushings.
APE: (Pat) "Well, all these pieces are supposed to just slip together."
Me: (After further scotch brighting the shafts and failing to slip on the bushing) "Do you guys have some emery paper?"
APE: (Dustin) "Sure." Walks off. Returns with a REALLY used old piece with hardly and tooth left.
Me: I work on sanding the shaft to maybe clearance it enough to put the pushing on. (5 min later) "Do you have a fresher piece of emery paper?
APE: "Sure" (Guys gave me a fresh 5" long piece grudgingly.)
Me: After another 5 min "Uhm, I don't like how much I'm going to have to remove to make this work. Are you guys sure that this is the way this is supposed to go together?"
APE: "Absolutely, we do this all the time"
Me: "Okay, well let me call someone and find out what the deal is and I'll get back to you guys" (I call Randy, who proceeds to
tell me that the bushings are pressed on, and that the reason he doesn't assemble transmissions himself anymore is that they
are so difficult to get put together right.) So next I call APE and tell them that the bushings are pressed on. "Why didn't you guys know the bushings were pressed on?"
APE: "uhhh, well we sent the transmission out to get undercut. We didn't actually take it apart. Every other transmission we do has floating bushings."
Me: "Well then send it back to the shop that did the work so that they can put it back together. I'm sure they know what they're doing"
APE: "Well, we can do that but, it'll cost you another $50 in shipping."
Me: "What do you mean? Before I dropped my transmission off, I talked to you guys to make sure I could get the gears back
unassembled for coating and that you could reassemble it for me. I didn't know you were going to send it somewhere else to do the work"
APE: "Well we could put it back together for you"
Me: "Are you guys going to get it right? I just got told that there are important tolerances to maintain on the shafts during
reassembly. If they're not right it's not going to shift right." (WHAT THEY SAID NEXT SHOCKED ME)
APE: (Pat) "You should really have us send it back to the shop. We're just a bunch of Duffers in here"
Me: Not that I should have been surprised with the general level of competence I had experienced but still. "Can you tell me where to send it to make sure that it's done right?"
APE: "No, we can't tell you that." (Long story short, the machine shop they use for their gear undercutting is like a military secret.)
Me: "Okay, so you won't send it to the people that will do it right without charging me extra? After you already said you'd reassemble it?"
APE: "yes"

So I took the whole mess back from them and walked out. Called my credit card and told them I was contesting $75 of the
charge so I could go to a competent shop to get the gears reassembled.
Wait a week.
APE: "Hey, why are you contesting the charge for the work we did on the gears?..."

Back and forth rehashing the prior conversation and referencing the previously botch work. Underscoring the complete lack of
faith in their ability to perform the work right. Laughing out load when they called themselves "A precision machine shop" (The
machines may be precise, but they most certainly are not) And going step by step until they said "Well call your credit card
company to not contest the charge and I'll give you $100" I said sure. Then ten minutes later they call back. "Ohhhh, I thought
you were contesting the whole $400. You're only asking for $75.  Never mind what I said earlier. Have a good day" and he hung up...

What a bunch of douchbags... (It's funny that the only work that's been done right with those guys is the work that was sent out...)

When I had my gears undercut APE mentioned that they send their work out to Paul Gast (Fast by Gast) so I just went to Paul directly.

Sorry to hear of your problems with APE. Think ahead on how bitchen your bike will be when finished. You are doing a 1st class job.

Don't get discouraged, it's gonna be worth it. 

Cheers

Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 25, 2013, 09:55:34 PM
When I had my gears undercut APE mentioned that they send their work out to Paul Gast (Fast by Gast) so I just went to Paul directly.

Sorry to hear of your problems with APE. Think ahead on how bitchen your bike will be when finished. You are doing a 1st class job.

Don't get discouraged, it's gonna be worth it. 

Cheers

Thanks. Interestingly enough they flat out denied sending it to Fast by Gast. Said they didn't use spears racing either...

Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 25, 2013, 09:55:34 PM
When I had my gears undercut APE mentioned that they send their work out to Paul Gast (Fast by Gast) so I just went to Paul directly.

Sorry to hear of your problems with APE. Think ahead on how bitchen your bike will be when finished. You are doing a 1st class job.

Don't get discouraged, it's gonna be worth it. 

Cheers

X2 on Fast by Gast - very happy with all the work they've done for me: street/strip ported big valve head, 2 transmissions, and the entire top end on the dragbike.

X2 on cant wait to see the final results of this build!

Quote from: skymasteres on March 25, 2013, 11:00:47 PM
Thanks. Interestingly enough they flat out denied sending it to Fast by Gast. Said they didn't use spe

ars racing either...

And when I spoke with Paul when this conversation started in January he told me, "APE sends their stuff out, I don't know who they use, but it is not me."

For anyone else looking at the transmission under cutting for the resolution of the second gear issue, I have the gear shaft in stock, with all gears on the shaft undercut on both accel and decel.

Undercut Transmission Input Shaft (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=UCT)

No waiting, professionally disassembled, inspected,welded if required, undercut and properly reassembled.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but your experiences regarding APE services are in line with others on the forum.

Randy - RPM

And the saga continues. I figured it was time to finally bolt down that oil baffle plate
and no sooner do I get the bolt almost in when...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13644039224336_zpsf215616c.jpg)

Just one of those moments where you're just like "CRAAAAAAP!...... oh danm."
Time to bust out the bolt extractors...

Looks like you got a little "head" there!

:biggrin:

I have the transmission now re-assembled! I am so very fortunate to have access to a certified Yamaha mechanic
who actually knows what he is doing with respect to things like this. (Working at Off Vintage Motorcyle)
Brought the shafts with the gears over to the shop where he works and he had everything put back together in
an hour. Even made sure everything was lined up right. (That would sound like it's obvious, but recent experience
has made me wary of "good enough")

I suppose the one bright side to all this transmission thrash is that I ended up with an assembled transmission with
all of the input AND the output shaft gears undercut for under $400. (It's reassuring when the mechanic doing the
reassembly is looking at the gears and asking if they have any miles on them because the dogs look so good)
Here are the shift forks in place. (I'll tell you, one of the most challenging aspects of this project is trying to
remember where I have all of these pieces stashed away)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13644039274314_zpsbadcbea4.jpg)

Here I am trial fitting the input shaft. (Note here, it's easier to put the output shaft in first THEN fit the input shaft.)
The thing that makes with tricky is all of the little details. Like that friggin little half clip that rides in the edge of the
bearing on the output shaft. ("Lost" it a few times and spend way too long crawling around looking for it...)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13644039284836_zpsffb47b22.jpg)

Here are both shafts in place. I spent some time flicking it back and forth between gears, and while the movement
is smooth, the gears don't "flick" back and forth the way I feel they should. I'm guessing I need to burnish this coating
that I have on everything more. We that and the fact that all of the parts have been "dry" fitted for now without
assembly lube. (I've avoided using assembly lube for now because it attracts just and I don't want additional grit in there.)
I'll put it on when I'm ready to button this thing up for real.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13644039262712_zps438d051d.jpg)


So, I have parts in the mail that will allow me to actually get this thing bolted together. So what am I missing? What kind
of sealant do I need to get the case halves mated? Any tips on performing the assembly? The sequence in the shop manual
is pretty straight forward, but it's reassuring to get input from people who have done it before.

I used Yamabond when I bolted my cases together. Nice work!

 How many people here put the top case half on top of the bottom half (completely ass backwards from 98% of all horizontally split bike engines). I don't. All Yamaha had to do is put the transmission bearing locating pin hole on the other side and....BINGO. :dash1: OK...ok...a Honda SOHC CB550 engine is supposed to be assembled flipping the top case onto the bottom case. Ways around that too!  :lol:

I tilt the rear of the engine block up about 45 degrees (with the cylinder head up leaning forward)
shift forks hanging down.
load the transmission into the lower case half then lift it to the upper case while engaging the shift forks.


took some cussin to figure that one out which led me to think one could actually do the second gear fix without removing the engine from the frame. (if one didnt mind working upside down)


Kookaloo!


Frank

Okay, so I'm guessing all of this angst about the transmission assembly order is the starter and cam chain arrangement in the upper case?
(It has to loop around the crankshaft so you can't really load it in the bottom while it's seperate?)

I used Yamabond when I did my 2nd gear fix (back in spring of '05).  I don't recall any issues, nothing you won't be able to handle.  A decent write up here under *maintenance* http://www.fj1100.com/main.htm (http://www.fj1100.com/main.htm)

Quote from: Dads_FJ on March 29, 2013, 12:04:02 PM
I used Yamabond when I did my 2nd gear fix (back in spring of '05).  I don't recall any issues, nothing you won't be able to handle.  A decent write up here under *maintenance* http://www.fj1100.com/main.htm (http://www.fj1100.com/main.htm)

Oh wow, it's been so long since I've seen that that I totally forgot about it. Thank you.

An another subject, what is the best proceedure for finding the correct thickness for your base gasket?
I have the overbore sleeves in this block so I cannot use the stock base gasket anyway. And with the
cylinder head work and all, I don't think it's goint to come out to the stock fitment.
(I figure it'll help me with time if I can get some of these "long lead" items ordered now)

Randy in 3.....2.....1....

Quote from: skymasteres on April 01, 2013, 12:07:56 PM

Quote from: Dads_FJ on March 29, 2013, 12:04:02 PM
I used Yamabond when I did my 2nd gear fix (back in spring of '05).  I don't recall any issues, nothing you won't be able to handle.  A decent write up here under *maintenance* http://www.fj1100.com/main.htm (http://www.fj1100.com/main.htm)

Oh wow, it's been so long since I've seen that that I totally forgot about it. Thank you.

An another subject, what is the best proceedure for finding the correct thickness for your base gasket?
I have the overbore sleeves in this block so I cannot use the stock base gasket anyway. And with the
cylinder head work and all, I don't think it's goint to come out to the stock fitment.
(I figure it'll help me with time if I can get some of these "long lead" items ordered now)

Fit a piston (no ring pack or c clips installed) on a rod, slide the cylinder on (no base gasket installed) and gently seat it on the upper case (dowels in place). I use a couple of pieces of PVC pipe ( with washers/nuts) over some studs to gently clamp the the cylinder down. Bring the piston to TDC and using a dial indicator measure whether it is + or - to the cylinder deck. Measure over the pin to avoid the rocking motion of the thrust sides of the skirt. Unless you have decked the cylinder or upper case it should be a negative figure i.e. -.005, -.010 etc. Add the thickness of the base gasket and that is you deck height. Example...-.010 in the hole plus using a .010 base gasket gives you 0 deck height.

Quote from: JMR on April 01, 2013, 05:03:27 PM
Fit a piston (no ring pack or c clips installed) on a rod, slide the cylinder on (no base gasket installed) and gently seat it on the upper case (dowels in place). I use a couple of pieces of PVC pipe ( with washers/nuts) over some studs to gently clamp the the cylinder down. Bring the piston to TDC and using a dial indicator measure whether it is + or - to the cylinder deck. Measure over the pin to avoid the rocking motion of the thrust sides of the skirt. Unless you have decked the cylinder or upper case it should be a negative figure i.e. -.005, -.010 etc. Add the thickness of the base gasket and that is you deck height. Example...-.010 in the hole plus using a .010 base gasket gives you 0 deck height.

Okay, I'll do just that. (Seems straightforward enough.)
What about the piston domb though? Should that be somewhat above the height of the cylinders?
(I'm making the assumption that when you say over the pin, you mean at the edge over the pin?)

You measure off the flat squish band on the the piston (that narrow lateral edge area).The dome will be well above the cylinder deck. And yes....on that piston pin edge over the pin itself.

Okay, I've been looking for the answer to this question.
And I can't find it in the manual or the pictures I took.

Where does the odd bearing go? It fits loosely on a few
of the webs but not really right anywhere...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13651414498610_zps3de1655b.jpg)

Quote from: skymasteres on April 05, 2013, 01:20:55 AM
Okay, I've been looking for the answer to this question.
And I can't find it in the manual or the pictures I took.

Where does the odd bearing go? It fits loosely on a few
of the webs but not really right anywhere...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13651414498610_zps3de1655b.jpg)

On a different bike.

Quote from: skymasteres on April 05, 2013, 01:20:55 AM
Okay, I've been looking for the answer to this question.
And I can't find it in the manual or the pictures I took.

Where does the odd bearing go? It fits loosely on a few
of the webs but not really right anywhere...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13651414498610_zps3de1655b.jpg)

I have never seen one of those in an FJ engine. First thing I would check is if the bearing fits between any of the crank shaft main bearing journals? If it does not fit it is definitely for a different application.

Was that something that was supplied to you to machine down the thrust bearing surface of the case as a replacement to the stock bearing using the case as the thrust? I ask because the thrust is only controlled at the upper portion of the case.

Randy - RPM

Quote from: racerrad8 on April 05, 2013, 11:10:29 AM
I have never seen one of those in an FJ engine. First thing I would check is if the bearing fits between any of the crank shaft main bearing journals? If it does not fit it is definitely for a different application.

Was that something that was supplied to you to machine down the thrust bearing surface of the case as a replacement to the stock bearing using the case as the thrust? I ask because the thrust is only controlled at the upper portion of the case.

Randy - RPM

It came in the bearing set that I bought for the engine. I don't know if it fits in the upper case. (Haven't tried that yet)
I do feel a lot better about it now though. Thought I was a complete bummy for not knowing where it went... :wacko3:

Like I said, you better see if it fits the crank before you do anything else. If it does not fit the crank then it doesn't fit the engine.

If it does fit the crank you will have to determine how you are going to have to machine the case to make it fit, because Yamaha never supplied that style bearing with the FJ/XJR engine...

Randy - RPM

Quote from: skymasteres on April 05, 2013, 01:20:55 AM
Okay, I've been looking for the answer to this question.
And I can't find it in the manual or the pictures I took.

Where does the odd bearing go? It fits loosely on a few
of the webs but not really right anywhere...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13651414498610_zps3de1655b.jpg)

Did your bearing kit get packed on April 1?

It looks like the rear brg of a small block chevy,  somebody is being funny.

Quote from: Mark Olson on April 06, 2013, 12:42:23 PM
It looks like the rear brg of a small block chevy,  somebody is being funny.

Thats what it looks like to me, too.

   Joe

Quote from: Country Joe on April 06, 2013, 01:51:03 PM

Quote from: Mark Olson on April 06, 2013, 12:42:23 PM
It looks like the rear brg of a small block chevy,  somebody is being funny.

Thats what it looks like to me, too.

   Joe

Yep.... :pardon:
George

Quote from: Country Joe on April 06, 2013, 01:51:03 PM

Quote from: Mark Olson on April 06, 2013, 12:42:23 PM
It looks like the rear brg of a small block chevy,  somebody is being funny.

Thats what it looks like to me, too.

   Joe

Maybe the end bearing from an XS1100....I never worked on one of those freaking tanks thank God!

Quote from: Mark Olson on April 06, 2013, 12:42:23 PM
Maybe the end bearing from an XS1100....I never worked on one of those freaking tanks thank God!

You know you hit it right on the head. It was a Yamaha XS1100-FJ1​200 Crank Bearing kit that I got.
Now here is the interesting part. If I put the bearing on an upper web it fits just fine, and there
seems to be plenty of clearance between the crackshaft webs. So I don't think the thrust potion of
the bearing is really going to do anything. (Or if it does actually make contact then something else
has gone dreadfully wrong...)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336289902_zpsab4bd824.jpg)

So, if not this bearing, then what takes up the thrust loads on the crank?

Something has got to keep the crank from walking around, right?

DavidR.

Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 08, 2013, 05:17:31 PM
So, if not this bearing, then what takes up the thrust loads on the crank?

Something has got to keep the crank from walking around, right?

DavidR.

You know, you're right. Just because the thing seems to line right up now doesn't
mean it's not going to dance all around once it's togeter and the engine is spinning.

When I get home I'm going to recheck all of the widths of the crank journals.
See if one is the right size for this bearing.

Well, bearing questions aside, I am itching to make more progress on this thing. I have been putting off
doing the coatings on the cylinder head. I finally bit the bullet and threw the sucker into the blast cabinet.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13654351904294_zps7fa1e632.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13654351889371_zpseb2fbdef.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13654351894362_zps89686ad2.jpg)

Combustion chambers masked

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13654351899123_zpsa68cc200.jpg)

These oil passages were one of my excuses for not getting this done sooner.
Needed to go get plugs. Interesting note, I don't think they're 1/8" NPT threads...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13654351882800_zps27249f85.jpg)

Putting it though the high pressure grit application process...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13653143289790_zps9807c78e.jpg)

Here is the head and valve cover all cleaned up and ready for coating.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13653143306863_zps9e90fe0a.jpg)

Of course with the appropriate ports all masked.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13653143324046_zpse350845f.jpg)

What I am doing on this piece that makes it more of a challenge is applying four different coatings
at once before it is cured. There is the thermal dispersant that is going on the valve cover and fins,
the dry film lubricant going on the intake runners, the thermal barrier going on the exhaust ports
and the ceramic lubricant for the camshaft bearing journals...

An intermediate step...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13653143367082_zps9be77639.jpg)

Drying. Waiting for it to be hard enough to handle. Part of the challenge is making sure that you
don't contaminate any of the cleaned surfaces before you get them coated.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13653143344709_zps5574cf1e.jpg)

Hear the cam journals are ready to be coated.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13653143312634_zpsee6621c6.jpg)

Chambers masked again for the thermal dispersant.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13653143340058_zps9b0d97d0.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13653143318555_zps64478565.jpg)

Here is the finished part on the oven for curing. (The leftover coating in the chambers will rub
off when I burnish the thermal barrier that's already on them.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Parts%20Coating/13653143329087_zps3d0f54a3.jpg)

Quote from: racerrad8 on April 05, 2013, 11:10:29 AM
I have never seen one of those in an FJ engine. First thing I would check is if the bearing fits between any of the crank shaft main bearing journals? If it does not fit it is definitely for a different application.

Was that something that was supplied to you to machine down the thrust bearing surface of the case as a replacement to the stock bearing using the case as the thrust? I ask because the thrust is only controlled at the upper portion of the case.

Randy - RPM

Okay, now I understand what you mean by the upper case controls the thrust. That's why there
is so much clearence with this thing. The upper crankcase webs are totally keeping the crank positioned.

It doesn't seem like the  extra flange on the bearing is going to hurt anything.
(It certainly doesn't help anything either) So I'm just going to leave it where it is. (It fits the crank fine)

Quote from: skymasteres on April 09, 2013, 09:59:46 AM
It doesn't seem like the  extra flange on the bearing is going to hurt anything.
(It certainly doesn't help anything either) So I'm just going to leave it where it is. (It fits the crank fine)

It might not seem like it, but there is something to consider...

If you use that bearing instead of the proper bearing, you now have two thrust surfaces attempting to hold the crank. The incorrect bearing will not have anything to help it control the thrust other than the small positioning key/groove. If the incorrect bearing is side loaded and damages that key on the bearing or the groove in the case allowing the bearing to come loose, you will have a loose bearing and an issue.

There should never be any more than one thrust surface in an engine.

I understand you cannot return the bearing because you coated it, but why after all of the work and money you have and are spending on the engine not install the correct bearing when the correct bearing costs $9.56.

I would hate to see all of this work and money down the drain when it spins a main bearing and you have to start over again.

Randy - RPM

Quote from: racerrad8 on April 09, 2013, 11:05:09 AM

It might not seem like it, but there is something to consider...

If you use that bearing instead of the proper bearing, you now have two thrust surfaces attempting to hold the crank. The incorrect bearing will not have anything to help it control the thrust other than the small positioning key/groove. If the incorrect bearing is side loaded and damages that key on the bearing or the groove in the case allowing the bearing to come loose, you will have a loose bearing and an issue.

There should never be any more than one thrust surface in an engine.

I understand you cannot return the bearing because you coated it, but why after all of the work and money you have and are spending on the engine not install the correct bearing when the correct bearing costs $9.56.

I would hate to see all of this work and money down the drain when it spins a main bearing and you have to start over again.

Randy - RPM

I appreciate the comment Randy. I'll check it out tonight and check to see exactly how much clearance I have there.
If it's huge like 0.15" I think I'll just leave it. (I mean, if the crank moves that much laterally just to make contact I'm
probably hosed anyway) What's the max play allowed in the crank side to side anyway?

Since the upper case is the trust and there is no "adjustment" there is not a Yamaha specification. It truly is based on the condition of the upper case thrust surfaces.

It has been so long since I checked one I cannot recall the measurement I took.

Randy - RPM

Quote from: racerrad8 on April 09, 2013, 11:05:09 AM

Quote from: skymasteres on April 09, 2013, 09:59:46 AM
It doesn't seem like the  extra flange on the bearing is going to hurt anything.
(It certainly doesn't help anything either) So I'm just going to leave it where it is. (It fits the crank fine)

It might not seem like it, but there is something to consider...

If you use that bearing instead of the proper bearing, you now have two thrust surfaces attempting to hold the crank. The incorrect bearing will not have anything to help it control the thrust other than the small positioning key/groove. If the incorrect bearing is side loaded and damages that key on the bearing or the groove in the case allowing the bearing to come loose, you will have a loose bearing and an issue.

There should never be any more than one thrust surface in an engine.

I understand you cannot return the bearing because you coated it, but why after all of the work and money you have and are spending on the engine not install the correct bearing when the correct bearing costs $9.56.

I would hate to see all of this work and money down the drain when it spins a main bearing and you have to start over again.

Randy - RPM

I'd have to second that( not that anyone asked my opinion...) but the extra ten bucks is
Nothing compared to the thousands
You have already put in.... Just mho

Quote from: racerrad8 on April 09, 2013, 11:54:35 AM
Since the upper case is the trust and there is no "adjustment: there is not a specification. It truly is based on the condition of the upper case thrust surfaces.

It has been so long since I checked one I cannot recall the measurement I took.

Randy - RPM

Okay, thanks Randy. I'll more fully investigate it. But would you consider my hypothesis correct on the level
of clearance available for the odd bearing? I mean, yes, contact would be bad and that little locating tab
wouldn't stand up to any real side loads. BUT, if it can't make contact, it can't make contact... So, if the
clearance is tight with the upper web then, the flanges just hang out in space fat dumb, and happy, never
to be molested by the crankshaft.

(And I learned my lesson on the o-ring thing. Bought the Yamaha o-rings, and they were identical in every
measureable way to the ones I sourced from the hardware store.) They may be slightly different chemically,
so I am glad I bought them, but I am sure I would have been fine with what I found.  Now that doesn't
include some of the little o-rings I bought for the rotating parts, those I fully support going with the OEM.
(Of course they are really odd, hard to find sizes anyway)

On another note, I am still running around looking for parts. I mean, this thing has been apart for over a year,
stripped down to just about its assembly line components, all sitting in plastic baggies, and just waiting to
get lost. I mean, I have plastic baggies all over and I still can't find things...

Like these little clamps for the engine.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/CrackaseClamps_zps95ce9b49.jpg)

Quote from: HARTLESS on April 09, 2013, 12:12:27 PM
I'd have to second that( not that anyone asked my opinion...) but the extra ten bucks is
Nothing compared to the thousands
You have already put in.... Just mho

And all opinions are welcome. I appreciate the feedback that you guys give me on this project.
I am going to verify the cleareance and see if it is even possible for this to be an issue. If it is
you can rest assured that I will go out and get an additional bearing. If it isn't I will seal the
sucker up and not worry about it. Secure in the knowledge that while I still may ultimately hose
myslelf on this project, it won't be because of that bearing.

Quote from: skymasteres on April 09, 2013, 12:40:19 PM

Quote from: HARTLESS on April 09, 2013, 12:12:27 PM
I'd have to second that( not that anyone asked my opinion...) but the extra ten bucks is
Nothing compared to the thousands
You have already put in.... Just mho

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish HARTLESS, other than emphasise your comment.
But I will get to the bottom of that issure. (And yes, the $10 is a drop in the bucket on this one)

More progress is being made on this thing. Final assembly on the engine is imminent. I keep getting unnerved
by the little things that I don't want to screw up. Things like messing up which way the rod that the shift
forks ride on goes into the case. (The end with the hole parallel to the rod goes in first) Or trying not to forget
a seal or a little o-ring. I specially don't want to bond the case halves together and find out that I have to
bust it open again to put something in there that I missed. Part of the problem for me is it just seems so dang
simple. I mean, there's not a whole lot in there that is completely inaccessible with the case halves together.

You have the following (I think):

Transmission (Including seals, clips and o-ring)
Shift drum (Can't install it after the gears are in)
Starter gear/Clutch/Damper/Sproket
Starter chain/Chain damper
O-ring (Between the case halves)
Crank/Bearings/Rods (Crank seal and plug)

What am I missing?

In the mean time I'll give you an update. Here are the big parts ready to go.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336229903_zpsd800d7c8.jpg)

But before I get to the assembly, let me tell you a little story about a lot of work for nothing...
You all remember this picture?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13631466064046_zpsc85b5839.jpg)

It is the XJR1300 starter clutch gear weighing in at a whopping 396.7g. This is 28.3g heavier than the
368.4g gear it is replacing. Upon inspection you can see that the gear tooth surface it much wider than
the part that can actually be driven by the starter gear itself. So... I took it upon myself to "fix" this.
Initially I was going to use my buddy's lathe, but the belt snapped while I was cleaning it up. Then I
figured I would chuck it in my drill press and use my vice with a feed to hold a cutting tool and remove
the material that way.

Off to the local magic shop (i.e. the hardware store) to get the parts needed to turn a drill press into a
low precision lathe... Which turned out to be a flanged bushing, and a steel spacer, a 7/16" bolt, some
washers, and a keyway. It ended up looking like this.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336246915_zps2846c470.jpg)

After I ground the keyway down to make a cutter (I know, I was looking for tool steel but they didn't have it)
I bolted the vice to the table and set everything up. Turns out that gear is made of a lot harder metal than I
gave it credit for.  It kind of wore the cutter rather than the cutter actually cutting the gear...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336196038_zpsa275708d.jpg)

So, if at first you don't succeed... Try a harder metal. Here is a piece from a tap, that I had laying
around, that had been modified for the task. (And the rather beat key)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336284631_zps6a7c617e.jpg)

And I still was met with failure. Undeterred I moved on to the "there must be a procedural problem" stage.
It wasn't working because I was using the wrong method. (Really I just didn't have a proper cutting tool.
But I may not have had enough clamping force on the gear via the bushings, bolt, and washers anyway)
Behold, the mighty harbor freight dremal tool. No clamped in place of the cutter and adjusted for position
it is working hard removing the material on the side of the gear...

Of course until the extra course sanding disk explodes and you have a dremal just spinning making noise.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336273899_zps76393ebd.jpg)

Now what to do? Well, the procedure was working. Obviously it was a lack of robustness on the tool side
of things. Time to go bigger... How about a 13 amp DeWalt angle grinder with a grinding wheel on it?
(On a side note, my brother says the wall behind my drill press looks like I slaughtered the tin man.
I don't know why but I found the commend uproariously funny.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336164612_zpsa2a4e625.jpg)

Success! Sort of. I mean, while it was doing a fine job of removing the material, it was getting kind of warm and
I was spraying it with water from a spray bottle. (Kind of hot when you see little puffs of steam coming off the gear)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336213570_zpscbc7c1ad.jpg)

Not to be deterred, I went back to my original method of material removal. Well sort of. I put a 60grit sanding
wheel on the grinder. Yehaw, now we're cooking with gas. That thing worked much better for thinning that
gear face down and it didn't get nearly as hot.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336305834_zps5d5612cb.jpg)

After all that, what did I end up with you ask? Well I now have a XJR1300 starter clutch gear that is almost
dimensionally identical to the FJ1200 gear it replaced.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336253756_zps66998fed.jpg)

Oh, and I shaved a whopping 46.4g off the gear. It actually came out slightly lighter than the original gear too.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336184756_zpsd55c64ab.jpg)

Of course all of this was a complete and utter waste of two hours, but it's funny when you get an idea in your
head that something needs to be "fixed" and the process becomes more engaging than the problem...

Oh, and just as a comparison, here is a shot of my cranshaft.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336153560_zpsd61efd7e.jpg)

Before the coatings

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/IMAG1019Medium.jpg)

And a borrowed image

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/Lightenedcrank2_zps2f8f9717.jpg)

Quote from: skymasteres on April 09, 2013, 02:27:41 PM
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish HARTLESS, other than emphasise your comment.
But I will get to the bottom of that issure. (And yes, the $10 is a drop in the bucket on this one)

Don't mind him Mike, you are doing a fine job. You're a big boy, you know what to do and with as much knowledge you have, your ego  does not get in the way of asking really really good questions.
Thank you for all the time you have spent taking pictures and documenting your build.
From your visuals and descriptions, I learn something every time you post.
I really appreciate it, as I am sure many of us on this forum also do...

Thanks again, keep it up!  Pat

[edit] Remind me, why did you decide to go with the XJR starter gear..and not the oem FJ gear?
     How much weight did you shave off the crank when you knife edged ?   

Quote from: skymasteres on April 09, 2013, 02:27:41 PM
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish HARTLESS, other than emphasise your comment.
But I will get to the bottom of that issure. (And yes, the $10 is a drop in the bucket on this one)

oops, I didn't mean to repost that. I was posting at work from my phone and I went back in my browser... must have accidentally reposted... like he said don't mind me, you really are doing a great job. this has been one of the most interesting threads on here for me :drinks:

Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 09, 2013, 04:25:07 PM
[edit] Remind me, why did you decide to go with the XJR starter gear..and not the oem FJ gear?
     How much weight did you shave off the crank when you knife edged ?   

The XJR gear decision was kind of forced upon me when I went with the XJR starter clutch.
The FJ clutch uses three rollers while the XJR uses a full roller sprag. I figured with the higher
displacement and compression it would be good to have more grip.

Here is a comparison of the two started clutches.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/XJR1300-FJ1200Starters_zpsb566cd75.jpg)

The difference that you don't see on the page is that the FJ gear has a clutch bearing surface
that is 1.858" in diameter, while the XJR's is 1.80". Just enough to make the FJ part too big for
the XJR sprag.

The side benefit of going with the XJR part is that it is lighter (by a whole 9.3oz) and is smaller
in diameter. The weight and diameter reduction are significant as the whole assembly is
constantly rotating at engine speed. So weight/inertia reductions here have a direct impact on
how quickly the engine revs. (Go to page 8 for the full comparison)

You know, I don't think I ever actually weighed the crank. The guys at APE told me that they took
a couple pounds off. Dang it, now I'm going to have to weigh it. This sucks too because I just got
the connecting rods attached last night...

Does anyone know what the weight of an unmolested crankshaft is?

WOW!, Lot of work going into your FJ, I have the tools and the ability to do this, But not sure I want to, Not much experience with motorcycle mechanic's but enough on cars, Im pretty sure I could figure it out, Was thinking of removing engine/trans for an over haul next winter, but that's about it, Thanks for posting all the pics of your re-build

Quote from: skymasteres on April 10, 2013, 11:50:04 AM
..... Dang it, now I'm going to have to weigh it. This sucks too because I just got
the connecting rods attached last night...

No Mike, don't do that, I was just curious....

Quote from: racerrad8 on April 09, 2013, 11:54:35 AM
Since the upper case is the trust and there is no "adjustment" there is not a Yamaha specification. It truly is based on the condition of the upper case thrust surfaces.

It has been so long since I checked one I cannot recall the measurement I took.

Randy - RPM

Okay so I went in with a set of feeler gauges to see what the truth of the thrust bearing surfaces on the FJ crankshaft are.

Here is what I found:
On the skirted bearing: LH Clearance 0.013"   RH Clearance 0.016"
On the Crank/Web:      LH Clearance <0.002" RH Clearance 0.003"

The crank is basically pressed against the left side of the web. I don't have a feeler thinner than 0.002"
so I can't say what it is exactly. But, even if I take it as 0.002" and subtract it from the 0.016" I have
available, I still have a clearance of 0.014" before contact can be made. Conversely, if it shifts the other
way it's 0.013" – 0.003" = 0.010" of clearance. Or twice the total play that the crank has available.

But... Since I am now going to pull the crank anyway to weigh it. I'll take that bearing out and remove
some extra material from the skirt. Just so that if the unthinkable happens and my upper crankcase web
gets trashed, allowing the crank to dance wildly back and forth, it'll have plenty of room to move before
hitting the upper bearing skirt and possibly causing the bearing to spin. (of course I think it that
happens other things will be out of whack before the bearing gets touched. I could be wrong though.)

Quote from: crzyjarmans on April 10, 2013, 11:59:40 AM
WOW!, Lot of work going into your FJ, I have the tools and the ability to do this, But not sure I want to, Not much experience with motorcycle mechanic's but enough on cars, Im pretty sure I could figure it out, Was thinking of removing engine/trans for an over haul next winter, but that's about it, Thanks for posting all the pics of your re-build

You know, it's funny because that's exactly where I was before I started this project. Hence many of the
"stupid" questions that I ask...

Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 10, 2013, 12:24:59 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on April 10, 2013, 11:50:04 AM
..... Dang it, now I'm going to have to weigh it. This sucks too because I just got
the connecting rods attached last night...

No Mike, don't do that, I was just curious....

Lol, it's not really that big a deal Pat. I was being a little dramatic. I keep thinking I am going to seal this thing up but I keep
stopping and reviewing the shop manual to make sure that I haven't forgotten anything. I just keep getting stuck on the fact
that there doesn't seem to be a lot of stiff that can't be put in after the two halves are joined.

It's just that now that the question has been asked, it needs to be answered. Especially since I have been so detailed with
what everything else weighs... Besides, I can use it as an excuse to go back in and "modify" that odd bearing a little...
Clean the bearing seats with acetone, make sure everything is aligned, etc. (Now I'm really paranoid about spinning bearings)

The progress I made last night was getting the rods put on, all of the bolts cleaned in the hot tank, and putting the two halves
together. (Now that I have assembly lube on stuff the engine "sleeps" in a black plastic garbage bag to keep crap from finding
its way into the lube.)

I plan on using the handy table in the shop manual to sort the bolts by position and size tonight and get this thing bolted
together... (Final pic request if you have any. Because, unless I screw it up, I ain't opening it again after it's sealed.) Oh, and I
like the fact that it shows which bolts have washers and all. Oh, and I found those clamps I was looking for.
(They were in with the baggies of engine bolts.)

I'm telling you, the devil has been in the details with this thing. Between the enormous time sink it is when
you're sweating questions brought up by ignorance or lack of experience, and "good" ideas that you think
will transfer over from other disciplines, this project has been a doosey. Especially when you sit there staring
at diagrams and the little voice in your head is there raging "It can't be THAT simple! There have to be more
pieces in there, you must be missing something!" Plus there have been many instances where I have spent
money on "irrational fear" just for peace of mind.  And other times that I have had to talk myself into it
because of the "I have already gone this far, I might as well..." argument.

All in all so far it has been a great learning experience. And it's not over yet.
Speaking of details. While I was franticly looking though the shop manual trying to identify all of the little seals
and o-rings that needed to be replaced, it dawned on me that I had the plastic "damper" pieces in the starter
clutch. These bits were basically hard plastic and the tab that holds the pairs together was broken on all four
of them. I ordered a set when I got the other o-rings. Boy am I glad I did. These new pieces are really soft
(in comparison) rubber. It's pliable like you would expect a damper to be. Now, did I really need to spend $30
on these parts? Could I have used the old basically plastic parts? Sure I could have. But this is one of the few
times where there is a night and day difference between the old and new.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336326568_zps6d647ef5.jpg)

Moving on. Then it's the starter shaft seal which the shop manual says to replace when doing a rebuild.
This was accomplished by using a socket to tap out the old seal, clean the housing up, and tap the new seal in.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13654336223642_zps1685d15b.jpg)

Then there are little things like the oil squirter that lubricates the starter chain and sprockets. It took a minute
of looking at that hole under the bearing retention plate and referencing the shop manual to realize that that's
what went there. Then several minutes looking through baggies to find the dang thing.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13655223734794_zps72ccbf18.jpg)

Then there's the stupid stuff like replacing the starter chain damper. Well, I replaced the starter and cam chains,
but I figured it was due at 120K miles. Here are the new and old dampers together for comparison. You can see
how worn the surface is and how cracked the material is on the old one.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13644039208653_zpsaafbfd5e.jpg)

With all of the what to do about the starter gear, here it is installed and lined up. I probably could have gone
with removing a little less, but I can't go back now. I'm sure it'll be fine.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656157041664_zps87e3489b.jpg)

The connecting rods have all been balanced so that the big and small ends weigh the same, and each rod is within
0.1g of each other.  I was kind of dreading re-weighing them as I did the balancing before I did the coating.
(I didn't know if it was going to throw it off at all.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656157030192_zps0b024a8d.jpg)

I'm telling you, with all the heating I did to these things doing the coatings, the nuts were a pain to get off.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656157018540_zpse92488ba.jpg)

The book says the XJR rods are supposed to weigh 361g. Mine come in at 370.1 +/- about 0.5g.
(maybe they weigh them without the bolts?)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656157046765_zps83114351.jpg)

One of the biggest factors for deciding if something gets replaced and or modified is the "How much ass pain
is there in going back in to take care of it when I should have done it in the first place." factor. For things like
the clutch, I plan to put it back together as is. I can go in a replace it without too much trouble. Things like
the shift drum, which require complete engine disassembly to get to are heavily scrutinized before assembly.

Okay, big surprise, I didn't get the engine case halves sealed together last night. I ended up hauling the crank
back out of the motor, stripping the rods off of it, and weighing the thing. Just because I'll probably never take
the crank out of it again, and I really want to know what the weight difference really is between the stock and
my crankshaft. (Really could have been avoided if I'd weighed the thing before I sent it to the shop, but oh well)

On a side note, is kind of cool how the whole crank balances perfectly when held up by the cam chain.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656943458450_zps01bedef8.jpg)

So, just because I am sooooo paranoid about that whole tap a bearing and spin the sucker thing, I decided to
remove the skirt from the bearing. This basically entailed about 20 minutes of quality time with a belt sander and
a Tupperware container filled with water. Normally I don't hold metal bare handed when grinding or sanding on it,
but I made an exception in this case because I didn't want to overheat the bearing. Once it started to get hot,
I would put it in the water.

Kept repeating that till I had this:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656943441767_zps23c288c3.jpg)

And of course now it fits perfectly in the web with "unlimited" clearance.
(The crank hits the side of the web before it touches the bearing...)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656943430455_zpse5c63cca.jpg)

And since I had the crank out for weighing I got to clean all the bearing seats with acetone and make sure everything
is situated just right. Now, since I have the crank out anyway, let's find out how much it weighs. According to my
digital bathroom scale, with a precision of 0.2#'s, the weight of my lightened crank is 23.2#'s. This number would mean
more if I knew what the thing weighed in the first place, but it'll have to do for now...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656943409692_zps31bd4f66.jpg)

The funny thing is, with all of this going back and forth, I am getting pretty good at putting this much of it back together.
Here are the rods back on the crank ready to be popped into the case.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656943446898_zps7c7818ad.jpg)

The trick it seems, with respect to the starter chain, it to put it over the clutch sprocket, drop the assembly in place,
and gently tap the bearing shaft that it rides on in place. You can't drive the shaft in all the way. (Or at least I can't)
and the last about an 1/8" of movement is accomplished by the seal cap. (Oh, and don't forget to remove the little oil
squirter before attempting to remove the starter clutch assembly. It snags on the chain and makes it impossible to remove...)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656943418133_zpsc2a063cf.jpg)

Here is my solution to the frustrating problem of what bolt goes where. Although on a side note I have absolutely no idea
where Yamaha is getting their measurements for bolt lengths. Seems like they are consistently 6-9mm off. They don't
even match up if you just look at the length of the shaft as opposed to the overall length.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656943453019_zps19682859.jpg)


On the bright side, I did discover that I am only missing three bolts. The problem is I have to put the sucker together to
figure out which three they are. Well, I'm pretty sure one of them is the center bolt "with a 10 stamped on the head"
and the other two are 40mm and 50mm long 6mm flange bolts. But who's to know when you can't make a positive ID
since the bolts used don't match the manual...

Here is what it looks like all ready to be sealed up. With luck I'll actually get to it tonight.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656943399200_zps15663a82.jpg)

Outstanding effort!

You seem a little OCD-ish so I hesitate to post this.  But what if the "thrust" surfaces on that bearing were really intended to hold the bearing itself in place.  Obviously from your measurements the crank (under normal circumstances) would have never contacted the sides of this bearing.

Could they have been simple ears or flanges to make sure the bearing itself stayed in place?  Is the bearing retained by a small tab like Chevy main and rod bearings?

I certainly don't know since I've never been this far into an FJ motor. 

Keep at it.  Really nice to see your progress.  That motor is going to be sweet when you finish!

DavidR.

I to am hooked on this build. Mr Yamaha would be proud of this gorgeously documented investigation into his wondrous works.
If I ever need surgery I'm calling you, as it appears you do a pretty thorough job.

Although I have no real clue as to what you are doing, your diligence would lead me to expect a 300Hp, 200mph,100mpg engine resultant.

We patiently await your test ride.
Andy

Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 11, 2013, 05:00:05 PM
Outstanding effort!

You seem a little OCD-ish so I hesitate to post this.  But what if the "thrust" surfaces on that bearing were really intended to hold the bearing itself in place.  Obviously from your measurements the crank (under normal circumstances) would have never contacted the sides of this bearing.

Could they have been simple ears or flanges to make sure the bearing itself stayed in place?  Is the bearing retained by a small tab like Chevy main and rod bearings?

Well, you would be right if they were supported by the web itself. But as Randy pointed out,
if the crank were to hit the skirt, it would breal the little locator tab that keeps the bearing in
place. All I have done is basically turn it back into a standard bearing.

Help! Yeah, that's what this is, a cry for help...

Bad luck, lack of skill, perhaps being too ham fisted. Whatever the problem is I am more than frustrated
at the moment. I was making great progress getting this thing put together and bolt #26 shears in the case...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13657802027626_zps1c1c3ee5.jpg)

I was threading it in and it suddenly go sort of "sticky" so I started backing it out to take a look and it
twisted off in the case. Words cannot describe the feeling. This is particularly upsetting since I chased
all of the threads with a tap before I started AND used a micro-pipet attached to my shop vac to remove
any dust and junk from the thread pockets.

I am thinking that I need to get a LH 5mm drill bit and try and drill the thing out. I REALLY don't want to
open this thing back up again, and clean off all the sealant I put on...

Any thoughts?

On another note, since I'm proclaiming to all the internet that I'm still a dumbass, does anyone know how
to interpret this reading? I've never used a dial indicator like this before and am not sure how to translate
this into a useful number. I set the thing up with the piston level with the lip of the cylinder, indicator
zeroed, and then rotated the crank till I got the max reading...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13657801754520_zpsf9be6dee.jpg)

Quote from: skymasteres on April 12, 2013, 01:21:31 PM
does anyone know how
to interpret this reading? I've never used a dial indicator like this before and am not sure how to translate
this into a useful number. I set the thing up with the piston level with the lip of the cylinder, indicator
zeroed, and then rotated the crank till I got the max reading...

Are you just looking for the highest point, in which case you have achieved it and don't need a number, or are you measuring something?

Noel

Noel

Quote from: ribbert on April 12, 2013, 07:20:43 PM
Are you just looking for the highest point, in which case you have achieved it and don't need a number, or are you measuring something?

Noel

I was trying to take a measurement so I could determine how thick a base gasket I need.
I had it zeroed where the piston edge is lined up with the surface of the cylinder block.
Just trying to measure the rise.

I also need to get this one bolt fixed.

Quote from: skymasteres on April 12, 2013, 01:21:31 PM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13657801754520_zpsf9be6dee.jpg)

I'm feeling a little chastened over recent advice however no one else seems to have answered you question. I no longer have an imperial gauge but I would read that as .009" / 9/1000ths of an inch.
The face says the increments are half one 1000th of an inch.  If the arc measures "1" for each full revolution of the perimeter hand that would make it .009" which is about 0.23mm.

What doesn't seem right is that would give the gauge a total range of only .060". I'm assuming it was not made for general automotive use, it does look odd.

Noel

Quote from: skymasteres on April 12, 2013, 01:21:31 PM
Help! Yeah, that's what this is, a cry for help...

Bad luck, lack of skill, perhaps being too ham fisted. Whatever the problem is I am more than frustrated
at the moment. I was making great progress getting this thing put together and bolt #26 shears in the case...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13657802027626_zps1c1c3ee5.jpg)

I was threading it in and it suddenly go sort of "sticky" so I started backing it out to take a look and it
twisted off in the case. Words cannot describe the feeling. This is particularly upsetting since I chased
all of the threads with a tap before I started AND used a micro-pipet attached to my shop vac to remove
any dust and junk from the thread pockets.

I am thinking that I need to get a LH 5mm drill bit and try and drill the thing out. I REALLY don't want to
open this thing back up again, and clean off all the sealant I put on...

Any thoughts?

Removing broken studs is a bit of contentious issue. There is no right or wrong method and everybody has their favourite. It depends on the material, the force being applied when it broke, how long it's been in there, access and whatever you do you DO NOT WANT TO BREAK OFF a drill bit or ezy out in the broken bolt, then you are truly up shit creek.
From the photo it looks like the bolt has already provided a concave centre point on the other piece. If it hasn't, centre punching the bolt accurately is critical.
The good news, from what you describe, is it shouldn't be too difficult to remove if you can get a moderate purchase on it.
If you completely stuff it up and ruin the thread, then we move onto plan B.
It is possible the damage was done when removing it.

Thanks Noel,

This gauge is weird because it'll read displacement in both directions once it's zeroed.
Now I just have to figure out what base gasket thicknesses are available.

As far as the bolt is concerned, you're right. The way it failed makes it really easy to
center drill the sucker. I am leaning towards using a 5mm left hand twist drill bit with
a stopper collet attached to the shaft to prevent over penetration, and a brass sleeve
to prevent the sides of the bit from damaging the case. With luck I'll be able to coax
the thing out and keep the threads intact without damaging the case, or having to
take it all apart again.

Quote from: skymasteres on April 12, 2013, 01:21:31 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13657801754520_zpsf9be6dee.jpg)

That is a dual sweep dial indicator is used for measuring to a predetermined specifications. The specification is set, the indicator is placed on zero. Depending on the indicator, the red zone could mean too small or too big.

I normally see this type of inductor on the cylinder/bore dial gauges when conducting the cylinder measuring or honing process. You set the indicator at zero being the bore size you want to achieve, then depending on the gauge, you can read how over or undersize the bore it.

Without knowing the indicator it is too difficult to determine by that photo of what you have there.

Randy - RPM

I've read this whole thread, probably twice, and have kept up with it through every post...

...But there's enough of a gap in my knowledge (I've never seen cases split with my own eyes, just in forum posts and the odd howstuffworks article and motorcycle manuals) that so much of it is incomprehensible to me. I feel so out of context.

One day...

Anyways. On with the show. Boy do I hate a broken stud, there's a problem I can understand.  (popcorn)

Quote from: skymasteres on April 12, 2013, 01:21:31 PM

I was threading it in and it suddenly go sort of "sticky" so I started backing it out to take a look and it
twisted off in the case.

Is that anti-sieze on the bolt?  If so, then I can't see it gaulling on the threads. 

Do you think the bolt (is that a cylinder stud?) might have bottomed out in the case?  I would think the threads can't be in very good shape after causing the bolt to snap like that.  You might want to start thinking about a helicoil or TimeSert repair.

Good luck.  Sucks that it happened just when you finally got some assembly velocity going.  :-(

DavidR.

Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 13, 2013, 06:20:10 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on April 12, 2013, 01:21:31 PM

I was threading it in and it suddenly go sort of "sticky" so I started backing it out to take a look and it
twisted off in the case.

Is that anti-sieze on the bolt?  If so, then I can't see it gaulling on the threads.  

Do you think the bolt (is that a cylinder stud?) might have bottomed out in the case?  I would think the threads can't be in very good shape after causing the bolt to snap like that.  You might want to start thinking about a helicoil or TimeSert repair.

Good luck.  Sucks that it happened just when you finally got some assembly velocity going.  :-(

DavidR.

Nope, not anti seize. I think it just got all jacked up with the case sealant. I don't think it bottomed out. But then again I'm not sure.
It could have been a hole that I messed cleaning up. There are a lot of things that could have happened. Maybe the bolt was
damaged. Bottome line, all further threadsare getting chased twice to make sure this doesn't hapen again...

Okay, so I have been making a little bit of progress behind the scenes. Ended up ordering a LH twist drill bet set off of ebay.
(After going through half a dozen different venders and finding that most wanted a $25 minimum order)

Here is a better view of the bolt in the hole. (You can almost make out the pocket in the bolt shaft where it sheared. )

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13660387856432_zpsd685d12d.jpg)

The bits should be coming in tonight so I'll be able to get that thing out and move on.

Additionally I did finally get everything bolted together so that I could get an accurate displacement on the piston with respect
to the cylinder block.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13662245771252_zpsa14c608b.jpg)

There was much more phutzing around with this than there should have been but it eventually worked.
The suggestion for using PVC worked great.  I ended up with this as a reading

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13662245775893_zpsa37aae6c.jpg)

Long story short, base gaskets have been ordered, now I have to figure out how the rings go into the pistons.
(Which side goes up and all)

Quote from: skymasteres on April 25, 2013, 06:58:40 PM
There was much more phutzing around with this than there should have been but it eventually worked.
The suggestion for using PVC worked great.  I ended up with this as a reading

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13662245775893_zpsa37aae6c.jpg)

Long story short, base gaskets have been ordered, now I have to figure out how the rings go into the pistons.
(Which side goes up and all)

Okay, I have a couple of questions...

1 - Which way does the dial indicator needle sweep? Is that a reading of .014 or .016".
2 - Is that the reading of the piston down in the cylinder or sticking out above the deck?
3 - Is the currently a base gasket installed?
4 - Have you buttoned it all together and filled the cylinders to find the CC displacement for the compression ratio?

I ask because the domes look like they are stock and with that big dome you might be exceeding 13:1 compression ratio.

Also, that piston is in backwards...

Randy - RPM

I'd invest in a 1" dial indicator. Christ.....you can get one for 15.00. It will serve well for cam timing too.

Quote from: skymasteres on April 25, 2013, 06:58:40 PM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13662245775893_zpsa37aae6c.jpg)

Just how does that dial indicator give you a reading at that angle?

Quote from: ribbert on April 25, 2013, 09:03:29 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on April 25, 2013, 06:58:40 PM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13662245775893_zpsa37aae6c.jpg)

Just how does that dial indicator give you a reading at that angle?

That is how they work, think cantilever, tilt, up/down travel is converted to distance traveled.

Quote from: FJmonkey on April 25, 2013, 09:15:17 PM

Quote from: ribbert on April 25, 2013, 09:03:29 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on April 25, 2013, 06:58:40 PM

Just how does that dial indicator give you a reading at that angle?

That is how they work, think cantilever, tilt, up/down travel is converted to distance traveled.

So it would need to be flat?

Quote from: ribbert on April 25, 2013, 09:52:00 PM
So it would need to be flat?

It a reference of one surface to another, relative measurement....

Quote from: FJmonkey on April 25, 2013, 10:03:43 PM

Quote from: ribbert on April 25, 2013, 09:52:00 PM
So it would need to be flat?

It a reference of one surface to another, relative measurement....

.......so, the steeper the angle, the more vertical measurement is progressively lost to horizontal movement of the pointer moving across the surface? 

Quote from: ribbert on April 25, 2013, 11:13:30 PM
.......so, the steeper the angle, the more vertical measurement is progressively lost to horizontal movement of the pointer moving across the surface? 

Yes, the steeper the angle the worse it gets, but the loss is minimal. At too steep an angle the gauge is useless.

Indicators such as the Interapid he is using are designed to be used with the needle at 12 degrees to the surface being checked.

Wow, I certainly did not expect the method of measurement to generate so much discussion.
I set up the needle about as parallel as I could to the piston when I took the measurement.
As chance would have it, it was between 10 and 15 degrees inclinded to the surface. I'm not
going to worry about the tiny error the mismatch to true 12 degrees would cause because I
may be on the high side compression wise anyway.

I still have to mock everything up and figure out where that stands. Now I am finding all of the
little things that I misplaced like dowel pins and bolts.

Here actually leaving the case halves together not only saved me all of the work of splitting them again,
not something I was even considering, but it also allowed the unthreaded portion of the hole in the upper
case half to serve as a guide making it easy to keep the bit straight. Unfortionately, the chuck on my drill
was too fat to fit past the case with the length of the bit being so short. Bummer, now what do I do?
After a little thinking it dawned on me that I could braze the bit to the tube and back it up with a section
of solid brass rod.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13674295853640_zps821bd5f1.jpg)

The most important bit to remember here is to do some proper surface prep when brazing, that and use
some liquid flux. (It works so much better than the paste stuff it's ridiculous) Oh, and remember that the drill
bit you weld this way is pretty much a throw away after this. I ended up using too much heat initially and
after I thought I had it and was about to all a little more filler I torched the dang bit in half. Not to be deterred
I cleaned it up on the sander and tried again, this time successful, and went into test it out.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13674295806096_zps2c85984b.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13674295771774_zps6e333a9e.jpg)

So here is the essence of what I am doing to get this bolt out. Tubes to protect the threads and align the
bit. And an extension to allow a straight shot with the drill. (It's a good thing I took a picture because the
brass tube sheared about 10 seconds later)
Back to the garage. This time I stepped up to the next drill size up and started again. The brazing worked
out much better this time since I didn't overheat the heck out of it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13674295725071_zpsbbf708e1.jpg)

That combined with the fact that I had a larger diameter tube, could handle more torque, I was able to
complete the drilling... right  though the bottom of the hole, straight through the case... D'oh...
Turns out there wasn't any steel in there after all. The bolt looked that way and felt "funny" because I had
bottomed it out in the hole... Oh well. Live and learn.  I ended up just putting a stud in there and using a nut
on top.

Progress is once again being made, since I am waiting for the oil pan dowels to come in I have been working
on filling the cases with the rest of the odds and ends that make up these engines.

Here is the oil pump finally ready to go in. I have all of the new o-rings positioned and the input shaft bearing
retainer plate has been secured. (With fasteners coated in lock tite and torqued to spec) You can also see
the ball bearing shift arm that I installed. (Via Randy at RPM)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13679467079696_zpsb2fb1347.jpg)

Once the oil pump is in place I got the drive gear and pushing put in place as well as the clutch basket bushing
and spacer positioned. (Unfortunately the case doesn't allow you to put the basket on this way. You have to
put the basket in position first THEN put the bearing and bushing in.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13679467104305_zps1a00a736.jpg)

This part is kind of nerve wracking as I don't want to leave anything out. The shop manual makes mention of a
seal when putting this stuff back together. Took me way too long to figure out that it was talking about the
pushrod seal on the opposite side of the case.

Here's the clutch basket positioned. (there is actually a steel and friction plate that doesn't come out because
of this fine wire that goes all the way around)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13679467082487_zps85e93974.jpg)

Here are all of the friction plates and steels in place with the bolt torqued to the required 50' #'s.  I ended up
pressing on it with my thumb as hard as I could and turning the torque wrench with my otyher hand till I got it
to click. Took several tries to keep it from slipping on me.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13679467070653_zps095eb619.jpg)

This is the clutch spring carrier kit I got from randy. It's basically a stock pressure plate with bigger holes machined
into it and a reinforcing plate to hold the spring cups. Basically converts the clutch from a diaphragm spring to a
standard six spring setup.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13679467069972_zps2ea6b74c.jpg)

Here is the plate installed with washers that go over the ends of the springs and utilizing the stock ring that aligns
the bolts. I ended up putting it in in stages using three longer bolts to compress the springs till I could get the
stock bolts in. (I'm not sure it I did it right or how much travel I need.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13679467100374_zpsda2faab3.jpg)

This is how it sits now. (Not terribly comfortable with the way the springs are retained. I'm pretty sure if I torque
them to spec, they'll bottom out and the whole thing will be fixed with no travel...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13679467088469_zpsc071c45b.jpg)

And yes, that is YET ANOTHER fastener that I have snapped off in this case! ARRRRRGG!!!

Oh, and on a side note, I just found out that bikebandit is not renewing their podium membership deal.
So no more free  shipping on parts orders for me...

Quote from: skymasteres on May 07, 2013, 06:30:26 PM
Here's the clutch basket positioned. (there is actually a steel and friction plate that doesn't come out because
of this fine wire that goes all the way around)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13679467082487_zps85e93974.jpg)

Isn't that the fine wire that should be removed and thrown away?    :unknown:

I can't find the thread for it right now.

Quote from: skymasteres on May 07, 2013, 06:30:26 PM
Here is the plate installed with washers that go over the ends of the springs and utilizing the stock ring that aligns
the bolts. I ended up putting it in in stages using three longer bolts to compress the springs till I could get the
stock bolts in. (I’m not sure it I did it right or how much travel I need.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13679467100374_zpsda2faab3.jpg)

#1 - The oil seal you were looking for is the o-ring on the end of the pressure plate plunger.
#2 - You need to remove the stock steel ring that was used with the stock diaphragm spring. Use only the large washers that were in the kit.
#3 - The bolts do bottom out on the stantion they are bolted to, just like the ring on the stock spring. The springs might look like they are bottomed out, but they are not. When using the coils springs there is not real need to tighten them evenly, each spring is individual of itself.
#4 - Clutch slipping? Look here. (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.msg14307#msg14307) You need to read the clutch file. About halfway through you will come across the "fine wire".

and finally...

#5 - Do not use the 8mm head bolts on the clutch, they are soft and will stretch & break. You should only use the 10mm with the number in the head for that.

Randy - RPM

Yep, what Randy said...
Use the stock torque specification on the coil springs.
In addition, when you read the post Randy linked to...you will see (after you remove the wire snap ring) where you can remove the base cushion spring and small fiber plate, which will allow a large clutch fiber plate to be installed.
With your big motor you will want all the fiber plate area you can get in your clutch pack.

Quote from: not a lib on May 07, 2013, 06:49:37 PM

Isn't that the fine wire that should be removed and thrown away?    :unknown:

I can't find the thread for it right now.

I took one look at that and was like "D'oh!" Then the words from the resident guru helped.
Although on a side note. In the manual is differentiates between oil seals and o-rings. It mentions
the plunger o-ring AND the seal. But the seal isn't anywhere near the part being assembled.
Go figure.

So now I'm getting the requisite parts from Randy to get the clutch sorted out.

First there was the huge pain in the rear of dealing with the fact that I didn't mask the combustion
chambers when I coated the ports. Of course the stuff ran and I didn't have any way of getting it
off except to sand it carefully with emery paper. (It's a heck of a lot tougher than I thought it was
that's for sure)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13685724583033_zps1d4a45c0.jpg)

Just when you thought I was done with all of the coating madness...

Yes indeed, the valve stems are getting a thin film lubricant. Since I wanted to keep them in the same
order that they came out of the head I ended up using an old piece of cardboard and pushing them
through. Then I numbered them so that when I went through the coating process I could keep track
of which went where.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13685724591666_zpseb77fd22.jpg)

They're a lot easier to handle when they have a piece of annealed wire wrapped around the retainer groove...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13685724548420_zps1dd7b9bf.jpg)

Once everything is coated, sanded, buffed, and polished it's time to get it put back together.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13685724587414_zps80810497.jpg)

I'm telling you though, holy crap is it just pain or what to get those friggin little locks in place.
I mean WOW. They are tiny, and go wherever they please. Even with the right tool they're trouble.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13685724596368_zps9cab4a8e.jpg)

So, I get 13 valves installed and find out that I am missing three of the spring seats. Not any
keepers, not any of the locks, but three seats. Of well. Loosing parts when I am desperately
trying to finish this seems to be a theme...

I don't mind doing a bit of work on my bike, but all THIS work you are doing, has my head spinning,  :biggrin:   I'm in awe.
I did pull apart my IT175J Yamaha 2 stroke many years ago to get rebuilt, bit it was simple compared to this.

Quote from: X-Ray on May 14, 2013, 06:51:59 PM
I don't mind doing a bit of work on my bike, but all THIS work you are doing, has my head spinning,  :biggrin:   I'm in awe.
I did pull apart my IT175J Yamaha 2 stroke many years ago to get rebuilt, bit it was simple compared to this.

Well Thank you so much for the comment. On the bright side I have been making progress, albeit slow
and incremental. It's always a little like Christmas when a box with parts in it comes. Right now more
than ever because it means I can move forward...

Here is the oil pickup screen installed. I have to say, that thing REALLY needs to be pressed on hard.
That and I wish I had kept better track of where I had put all of my fasteners. I mean good grief. I'm
missing bolt number "5" and the copper washer that goes in the center of the oil pan.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13685724571769_zpsc80339c1.jpg)

So anyway, some of you might remember the horror that was the original cylinder head...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13685724571769_zpsc80339c1.jpg)

I know, gasp, cue creepy dramatic music. But within this burned up part are three golden
nuggets that will allow forward progress to continue. Namely, the three missing spring seats.
Here are the parts removed netting me the pieces I need to finish assembly on my cylinder head.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686448244963_zps6a9dfb73.jpg)[/URL]

Remember that burned valve? Well here is a better shot of it. (It's actually one of two
burned exhaust valves)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686448242592_zpsec3b2c21.jpg)

And here is the backside of it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686448236311_zps0a2db02e.jpg)

I'm not quite sure what that black ring around the perimeter is, but it was sitting awfully low
in the cylinder head... (Maybe the valve seat itself?)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686448250205_zps762f1e3a.jpg)

Anyway, here is the assembled head.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686448249324_zps140a788b.jpg)

But I ran into an issue. The spring cups/shim holders are an awfully tight fit over the springs
and in the bores. It feels like they are touching stuff on the inside and outside. They certainly
don't "fall out" like the old ones. They need to be pressed in. Am I missing something here?

Damn that's the wost exhaust valve that I have ever seen ! Lucky you got into it when you did !
George

Hell,  I thought my exhaust valves were toasted, don't think they were quite that bad, 

The only type of head work I've ever done was on my car.  When I put stuff back together I used lots of new oil on all the parts.  Looks like you've coated the head as well.  Even though it's thin it could provide interference on some of the moving parts.
I haven't been inside the top end of my bike too much yet, but those are my two thoughts on the matter.

Quote from: GhostMerc on May 17, 2013, 09:11:25 AM
The only type of head work I've ever done was on my car.  When I put stuff back together I used lots of new oil on all the parts.  Looks like you've coated the head as well.  Even though it's thin it could provide interference on some of the moving parts.
I haven't been inside the top end of my bike too much yet, but those are my two thoughts on the matter.

Well, you're half right. I sort of panicked and called Randy because, well I was panicking. (Duh) Sort of
answered my own question, but didn't realize it till I actually looked at the spring cups that the cup and
their corresponding pockets are frictions surfaces. Of course you know what that means.... Off to the
garage for more cermalube! (But we'll get to that in a little bit) 

No I had to go through the whole process of disassembling the cylinder head yet AGAIN. Well after I used
the spring compressor to remove the first valve I realized I really didn't want to do them all that way. So
I took one of my scrap 1" PVC sections, a mallet, put it over the keeper and gave it a good whack. (Of
course this resulted in sending the valve locks flying, landing in my miserable poo brown shag, and frantic
searching ensued.) Not to be deterred I figured there had to be a better way. Bingo, how about putting a
used plastic bag over the PVC? Works like a charm.

My high tech valve removal kit.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686837851672_zpsb8ddc5c7.jpg)

I ended up using a flap wheel from my porting kit with a piece of skotchbright pad wrapped around it to
clean up all of the spring cup bores.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686837854893_zpsfb37d414.jpg)

With the scotchbright.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686837860765_zps1af28d8b.jpg)

It turns out that when I put the wax and paper towels in the spring pockets I ended up with leftover
wax that was jamming the spring cups. After I ran the pad through it the buildup was removed.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686837843860_zps13ef38a5.jpg)

Of course now armed with the rapid valve removal capability progress on the rest of the bores was fairly quick.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686837857594_zps49cb9b34.jpg)

Here is a comparison between new springs and the stockers with 120K miles on them.
(I guess it's fairly obvious which is which...)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686837846231_zps7da633e7.jpg)

Back to the garage. (Sometimes I think I spend more time in here than at work...)
Here you can see, if you look carefully, the shiny parts of the spring cup.
This is where the contact was being made with the cylinder head.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13688017456073_zps481266de.jpg)

And here are some of the spring cups coated.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13688017442200_zps20b29cbf.jpg)

With the parts curing in the over the grueling process of now RE-assembling the cylinder head continues...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13688017447231_zpsa7cc2611.jpg)


Although on the bright side, it turns out I was only missing one spring seat. The other two were doubled
up in the bottom two different spring pockets and I didn't notice. Turns out I only lost one.
(It's a good thing I found that out before the engine was run. But finding stuff like that makes me nervous)

Did you put (new) stock valve springs back in it?  Pretty sure that's something you want to go aftermarket with -- even with stock cams and valves. There were some discussions a few years ago about how the stock springs lost a lot of seat pressure after just one or two heat cycles with a drastic HP drop that was verified on the dyno. I'd get Randy's opinion on this if it were me. I'd also like to hear his opinion on this...

Quote from: fj1289 on May 19, 2013, 01:05:11 AM
Did you put (new) stock valve springs back in it? 

Am I missing something? ...doesn't this photo answer that question?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13686837846231_zps7da633e7.jpg)

Dan

Dan, I think Chris's question was about replacing old with new oem Yamaha springs.
The aftermarket KPMI springs are superior to the oem Yamaha springs.

Exactly -- I "think" it takes a LOT less than 120K miles for a set of stock valve springs to be sacked out like those are.  With all the care and attention to detail being put into this build, it would be a shame for the new valve springs to give up early.

I don't like pulling the valves out of new seals. The upper keeper lip is sharp and can cut the sealing lip. Just my experience.  Hope it works out.

Right, not, "Did you put new valve springs," but, "did you put new *stock* valve springs".

I can't wait to rebuild my engine some day.

I really hope this re-assembly goes well. Surely the karmic gods will ensure the safe return to the road for this project. Who needs a workshop manual with this detailed restoration going on?

Well it's good to know that everyone is paying attention. You can all rest assured that I have new aftermarket
valve springs in this cylinder head. Unfortunately I do not have the specs on what exactly these springs are
because they came with the cylinder head. I can say that the inner spring is definitely slightly larger in diameter
than the stock inner spring.  I can also tell you that the old keepers are 7.8g while the new ones are 6.6g.
(Looks like stainless steel too)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13690606928872_zps0b1d3388.jpg)

A 1.2g weight savings on something that completes its open and closed cycle in less than 270* of crank rotation
is pretty significant. (360*/Rev)x(6000Rev/min)(1min/60sec)= 36000*/sec of crank rotation or 100 revolutions/sec.
So if you figure that the crank makes two twice for every time the cam goes around then the cam is spinning at
50 revolutions per second at 6k RPM. If the lobe on the valve for about 270* then let's assume half of it is opening
and the other half closing. 270* is 3/4 of rotation. Half of that is 0.35 of a rotation to open, and 0.35 to close. At
1/50 of a second for a revolution that's (1/50sec)*(0.35)=0.007sec for the valve to travel it's 0.4" from closed to
open, or open to closed. I don't have time to dig further into it than that right now, but that's a lot of acceleration
for a little part.

On another subject. It's amazing the difference it makes when you polish up this coating a little.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13690606934143_zpsa22f62e0.jpg)

If those are the Hank Scott 82mm pistons (they look like it) left unshaved, your compression ratio will be over 13.5:1. Remember with the added displacement, you are compressing 22% more air in the head's squish area.
You should consider shaving down those piston crowns if you want to run pump gas.
Especially the piss water we get in Calif.

Just a suggestion.

Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 20, 2013, 06:11:45 PM
If those are the Hank Scott 82mm pistons (they look like it) left unshaved, your compression ratio will be over 13.5:1. Remember with the added displacement, you are compressing 22% more air in the head's squish area.
You should consider shaving down those piston crowns if you want to run pump gas.
Especially the piss water we get in Calif.

Just a suggestion.

Well, Hank Scott told me that I should be in the 11 to one range with these pistons because he opened up
the combustion chambers a bit for the bigger bore. That and the larger valves have been unshrouded.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13691484510470_zps8d167de3.jpg)

Here is a comparison of the old cylinder head.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13691484560879_zps09f2e6a0.jpg)

I figured I'd try and see where I was CC wise so I taped over the spark plug hole and filled the combustion
chamber with water. I didn't have a burette handy (Broke my last one) to I used a 3ml graduated dropper
and just counted how many times I had to empty it into the cylinder head.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13691484521542_zps846d8878.jpg)


I ended up with 14x3ml for the new head and 12x3ml for the old head.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13691484516631_zps38dc4a67.jpg)

Hopefully a displacement difference of just 42-36=6cc will make enough of a difference.

Here you can see the valve releifs...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13691484534994_zps7bbee791.jpg)

Well, I caved after a conversation with Hank Scott about the possibility of running the motor I'm building
with the pistons stock. Turns out that when he assured me that it would run fine on "pump gas" that he
was under the impression that I had access to the 94 octane fuel that they have back east. Not this
piswater 91 being the best available without having to buy it from a race shop. Of course I should count
my blessings. There were places in Texas where the best I could get was 87. (Played havoc with the car
since I was towing a trailer and the minimum is 91) So, it was decided that I would take 50 thousands off
the domes to drop the compression to about 11 to 1. (I asked randy to shave 60 just for a little extra margin.)

And here they are.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534144150_zps41533c52.jpg)

Of course while I was waiting for the pistons I decided to open the clutch back up and make that right.

I'll have to get to that a little later. Jumping ahead though. (Spoiler alert)
























I crushed the crap out of this connector. Does anyone have an extra handy?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697557029848_zpscaaea9ca.jpg)

( I Don't know why the links are broken. But here is the crushed connector)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697557029848_zpscaaea9ca.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697557029848_zpscaaea9ca.jpg)

It's the one for the clutch grip controls. (Lights, horn, and turn signals)

Yup. Mostly see 91 in Austin at the top. Of course, my question is: is this bike going to be a daily rider? If not, is it really that much of a hassle to run an octane booster? And with the cost you've spent on the motor at this point, I can't imagine the cost would be unbearable for you (again, unless it's your daily rider).

Hard choice, but I feel like if I were this far in I'd just want to go all the way.

I feel like most people are generally misguided about octane numbers... In this case, I understand, but what towing vehicle were you running that had a high enough compression ratio and wasn't fuel injected that required 91 octane?

I run the cheapest octane (83? 87?) on my stock FJ engine. Compression ratio isn't enough to cause pinging. When I hear people here saying they put premium in their stock engines, it just sounds like money wasted to me.

Quote from: JMR on May 19, 2013, 07:48:07 PM
I don't like pulling the valves out of new seals. The upper keeper lip is sharp and can cut the sealing lip. Just my experience.  Hope it works out.

Never mind, misread the post.....    :dash2:

VintageConnections.com had that connector body when I replaced several on my '90......

Quote from: fintip on May 28, 2013, 10:02:24 PM
Yup. Mostly see 91 in Austin at the top. Of course, my question is: is this bike going to be a daily rider? If not, is it really that much of a hassle to run an octane booster? And with the cost you've spent on the motor at this point, I can't imagine the cost would be unbearable for you (again, unless it's your daily rider).

Hard choice, but I feel like if I were this far in I'd just want to go all the way.

I feel like most people are generally misguided about octane numbers... In this case, I understand, but what towing vehicle were you running that had a high enough compression ratio and wasn't fuel injected that required 91 octane?

I run the cheapest octane (83? 87?) on my stock FJ engine. Compression ratio isn't enough to cause pinging. When I hear people here saying they put premium in their stock engines, it just sounds like money wasted to me.

As hard as it may be to believe this is intended to be used as a daily rider.  It has been from the beginning
of this project. I commute most days on a motorcycle. (Unfortunately a couple weeks ago my V45 died)
This bike was intended to be a replacement for it.

I am suffering from a string of heinous errors and mistakes. This was supposed to come together but at every
turn I and faced with further delays.

Getting back to the clutch. I ordered two wide clutch disks and followed the very detailed write up that
Randy provided. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.msg14307#msg14307 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.msg14307#msg14307)
Once I got the clutch basket off, and got that little wire out, I was able to extract the last friction disk and
steel. Interestingly though the steel had a fairly deep groove in it from the damper spring.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534150511_zps84506d57.jpg)

Here is a shot showing just how much possible friction area is lost due to the narrow clutch disk with
respect to the pressure plate.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534155062_zps8bda4173.jpg)

According to the write up, if you "machine" a wide clutch disk a little, you can fit it on the pressure
plate. So I figured, why not? I don't have a lathe big enough to mess with that, but I do have enough
patience to mark how much material needs to be removed and attach the plate with a carbide bur
on a die grinder.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534185749_zps073e0cdd.jpg)

After about fifteen minutes of grinding, checking, regrinding, and checking again I was able to achieve this.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534168815_zps3c9657ae.jpg)

All in all you need to remove about 3/32" of material off of the inner diameter to make the disk fit.
It's actually kind of comforting to know that you have the absolute maximum friction surface available
in the clutch and that nothing has been left behind. (Of course if it does slip it'll be kinda maddening.)

Then there's the little knick knacks like not forgetting this little guy here....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534172776_zpsd219fabd.jpg)

Especially when the cat goes "Ohhhh, shiny" and bats it off the table into 1" shag carpeting...
And I now see what Randy was talking about with respect to "bottoming out" the spring keepers
on the pressure plate. Without that ring that the stock ring for the plate spring the spring buckets
are free to bypass the washers that retain the springs.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534164194_zps1931e95d.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534208014_zps91511291.jpg)

With that all buttoned up the next order of business is the clutch slave. This wasn't really leaking
that I know about but I figured some new seals couldn't hurt. Once I took it apart though I spent
about twenty minutes with a scotch bright pad working on the inner bore to get all the corrosion
off of it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697556940053_zps45802431.jpg)

There there's the process of getting the new seals on it and putting it all together. Really it went easily,
but I did use a clamp to keep the tension off of the seals while it awaited final assembly.

Attention! Attention all. THE TINY FRIGGING BALL HAS BEEN FOUND! Huzzah! All kidding aside this part of
the process kind of reminds me of muzzle loading.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534217786_zps65524677.jpg)

Just put the sucker in there and drive it home with the pushrod. Of course then there was the freaking
out over thinking that the pushrod was two inched too long. I scratched my head over that one for a
while before I pulled the pushrod out and tried to put the clutch slave against the engine case. It was
at this point that I realized that I was missing the sprocket cover. D'oh.

Moving on, it's time to get the coating reapplied to the pistons so that they can be assembled.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534199502_zps0f71d415.jpg)

While they were curing in the oven I took the time to put the cylinder studs into the upper case and
put the base gaskets on. The important thing is that the long studs go to the outside corners and the
short one with a shoulder goes to the hole to the right of the chain galley to the back of the bike.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697534203853_zps91558540.jpg)

Now that the pistons have been cured and polished it's time to get the suckers attached to the
connecting rods. I'll admit there was a bit of a learning curve with respect to the spring clips that
came with the pistons. They are quite a bit heavier than any I have ever used before on a motorcycle.
(On a V-8 sure, but not on a bike)  So much so that I accidentally dropped one down into the engine
case... Heard it ping and bounce all around down there. Figured I would cut my losses and get the rest
in before tossing the engine all around trying to get it out. Fortunately it was the only one that I
dropped. Unfortunately, I dropped it two more times before I finally got it into place. (Good thing that
once I pulled the oil pan off that I left it off) Of course since it was piston number one, it didn't drop
straight into the pan, it took quite of bit of rotating and tilting the engine to get it out. I am really glad
I was able to find it three times though.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697556896845_zps328076db.jpg)

Then there was the tricky process of getting the jugs to slide down over the pistons. (Of yeah, I forgot
about gapping the rings. I'm glad I checked it because 7 out of the 8 were slightly off.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697556877311_zpsa94d4feb.jpg)

Seems that the rule is to seat one ring at a time and move the jugs down millimeter by millimeter
till you gently GENTLY tease all of the rings into the cylinders. (I'm really glad I remembered the
seals and dowel pings. That would have been quite the pain to have to do that again...)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697556935452_zps63bc1c17.jpg)


The cams were the next thing on the list. Pulling those plugs was not quite as simple as drilling them,
putting a screw in them, and pulling them out with a pair of pliers. I ended up having to break out the
heavy artillery and hit them with a slide hammer.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697557316646_zpsd40c6e1b.jpg)

With the cam bores exposed it was a simple matter to take a 12ga cleaning bush and give them a
good scrubbing. (They were actually quite clean with just the wax leftover from the coating process
at the end caps. But it's good to know there isn't any grit inside them)

Although, fun fact. Don't, repeat, DO NOT bake anything with masking take on it that you want
to take off later. It is a royal PITA to get off....



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697556930301_zpsddb3d659.jpg)

Hey! This thing is starting to look like a real engine.  Ignorance is a powerful work creating agent.
When you don't have shortcuts in mind due to lack of experience you end up taking the long way
around. Case in point is the valve clearancing.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697557012026_zpsbc0ac62d.jpg)

Had I stopped here I could have checked everything, changed out my shims, and been done with it
but no. I pressed on.

But noooooooooo (George Belushi) I waited till I got to this point to start checking things and swapping shims...


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697557195942_zpsb899d425.jpg)

That and the fact that my own desire for precision left me with the need to get the tollerances as tight
as possible.... (I know, gasp. New engine dummy...) So it was round after round of this.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697556906907_zpsab2d82e6.jpg)

And of course you'll notice the position of the cam lobe and the bucket holder tool. (I spent a couple
hours raging to myself about this because I never found page two of the instructions with the shim
kit until after I was done.)  But then again, I wasn't done. Since I talked with Randy I was clued into
the whole new engine, run the clearances wide because everything tightens up after it wears in bit.
Makes perfect sense, just wasn't in my cross check.

So after another couple hours of screwing around, checking, adjusting, rechecking, swapping and so
on I was able to put the valve cover back on and got to this.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697556918979_zps2559bd8f.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/skymasteres/media/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13697556918979_zps2559bd8f.jpg.html)

Behold. The engine is finally complete! (More or less, mostly more)

 :yahoo:

Can't wait to hear how it rides!

Quote from: RichBaker on May 29, 2013, 01:45:51 AM
VintageConnections.com had that connector body when I replaced several on my '90......

Well thanks for the link. I'll have to get myself a connector from them. (Of course that site opens up all sorts
of possibilities for getting connectors sorted out...)

Here is the rest of the frame awakened from its slumber. (I'll tell you it was dirtier than I expected it to be
under the cycle shell. 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13697557000764_zps6a20e265.jpg)

Since I have the engine all coated and what not I wanted to be very careful with how it was treated so I
didn't completely mess everything up when I put it in the frame. Hence I moved it to a location where sliding
the engine all around wouldn't be a problem...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13697556949645_zpse8a601cf.jpg)

The engine is complete and ready to go into the frame. Really it wasn't as bad a process as I had feared.
I mean, yes the thing is really heavy but, if you work slowly and carefully while taking deliberate care to avoid
the temptation of trying to just manhandle the thing into place. Just a hint, if you're thinking about trying to
put the rear bolts in a swing the engine into position. This didn't work as the two fixed frame members coming
down to meet the engine cradle frame pieces got into the way. 

I ended up stacking a couple phone books, setting the engine on top of them, and using two ratchet straps to
gradually work the engine up into position. Once I had reached the limit of the straps, I used a floor jack to
hold the engine while I reset the straps. It took a little patience, but really it worked splendidly.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13697557290323_zps0ac3869d.jpg)

It ended up being much easier than I thought to get the engine positioned. Once it was in place it was a simple
matter to get the bolts aligned and inserted.

You'll have to forgive the pace at which I am updating this thread. Over the four day weekend before the rally
I basically did two months worth of work at my normal pace and now I am struggling to get the info up for you
guys in my usual manner. As it stands now, the beast lives. I have exactly ONE mile on her under her own power.

That is until she sputtered and quit on me. Kind of acted like the engine sucked the fuel bowls dry. Like there
wasn't adequate supply to keep them filled. Wasn't leaking when I started, but while I was pushing the bike back
it was dumping fuel. I think it's a leak in the carburetor bowl plugs, but by the time I got back to the house I
couldn't find the leak and it started right up. (Of course it was dark out. I'll poke around when I get home to figure
it out.)

On a side note, I think you guys sometimes don't appreciate how good you have it with these bikes. They are
CONSIDERABLY easier to push than the V-45 or V-65 Magnas. The center of gravity is so low I can walk the bike
along next to me with just one hand on the brake master cylinder reservoir.

But I digress...

Here is the engine finally bolted into the frame. There was a lot of twisting and tugging to get the rear allen bolt
through, and the front frame rails went on easily enough. I was definitely sweating looking for the rubber bushings
since I hadn't seen them since I had the frame powder coated...


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13697557305635_zpsf4edcca6.jpg)


With the engine in place it's amazing how quickly the little things start to overwhelm you. I mean, there are a lot
of wire and connectors to figure out where they go. Plus, when you have removed the Republik of Kalifornia
emission equipment, there are a few connectors that don't go anywhere...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13698303694512_zps1e6a8596.jpg)

This will give you an idea of just how long some of this stuff has been sitting in the garage...
(Shameful I know)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13698303709186_zpsba4e543c.jpg)

And with the carbs I'm using, Mikuni TMR flat slides. I needed to have the throttle cables shortened. Ended up
having to get 1.5 and 1 inches removed from both. (It's nice when you have a buddy to help you out with some stuff)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13698303701885_zpsa2efd636.jpg)

There was an epic struggle with trying to get the stock airbox back on with the fuel line arrangement and the
carbs. This T-fitting kept getting in the way so I started trying to figure out how to reroute it.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13698303701494_zps675bf566.jpg)

The problem was I needed to get the old tubing off of the carburetor T-fitting. One of them came off easily,
the other one...


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13706264029042_zpsb1d0fce6.jpg)

You know that feeling when your down to 24 hours before a self-imposed deadline passes and you've just
broken a one of a kind part... Yeah, that was the feeling.

Iimmediately went out into the garage and started searching for a solution. With all of the other stuff I had
I came up with this solution. Cut two barbs off the T and drill them out to 1/4". Then sweat in some 1/4"copper
tube and presto. You have a new fitting.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13706264030453_zpsd81d45f4.jpg)

I ended up jamming it into the broken T (After notching the tube that went in there) and JB welding it into place.
Then I did the same for the other side and used some rubber tubing to seal it all up. (Turns out the rubber bit
didn't actually seal, but it looked cool...)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13706264002713_zps73eb9c0c.jpg)


With that taken care of I went about getting the fairing mounted at buttoning it up.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13698303711047_zpsda8cb20b.jpg)


There was quite a bit of trial and error involved in getting the fairing on and having everything routed properly.
I ended up having to remove it a couple of times to get the side scoops to go in right. (Ended up the guys at
the rally were the ones to eventually get that sorted out. Thanks guys) But getting ready to go in the trailer,
it looked like this...


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis%20%20Body/13706264002702_zps155e49c2.jpg)

One last thing that was done before the bike was loaded was to refill the clutch master and slave
cylinders. One thing I can say is, with a completely dry system, the quickest way to have it filled
and bled is by using a vacuum to suck all of the air out. This draws the fluid in completely filling
the system and completing the bleed process in under a minute.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis %20Body/13706264026531_zps5027dd88.jpg)

It's an old mini-fridge compressor with a salsa jar being used to catch the excess fluid. (I build the
thing for bleeding ABS brake systems in cars where you need to bleed two at a time) The lid of the
jar has two brass tubes brazed to it making the fittings.  Probably impractical if you're just using it
for the motorcycle, but it's a real time savings if you have several systems that you flush annually.

Well the rally went great. Other than a little downing of my neighbor's bike. (I'll fix it good as new.
Already have some of the parts on order)  I have to thank Pat, Mike,  Wash, Garth, and all the other
guys that tinkered with getting my fairing put on properly with the wires routed. Now that I am putting
all the parts together again I don't have any issues with interference.  (And thanks to everyone that
I didn't mention by name. Didn't get all of them memorized)
So, while it's unfortunate that I didn't manage to get  the bike started at the rally, it was really a
good thing it didn't start. There were multiple little things that had been forgotten or missed during
my rushed reassembly of the engine.

There were three main issues with trying to get it started.  There was oil leaking from the right hand
oil galley plug, the motor was cranking really slowly, and the voltage while cranking was 9v. Turns out
the oil galley plugs were leaking because they weren't tightened properly. The engine was so darn
tight that it was just drawing all kinds of current from the battery and dragging the voltage down.
The battery is new, but I think the voltage dropped due to all the cranking.

So, I talked to Randy and during the course of the conversation I realized that I had failed to plug
the external oiler ports on the cylinder head. There should have been oil coming out of those ports
but there wasn't. When I pulled the valve cover it turned out that there wasn't any engine oil up
there at all. With all of that cranking the oil pump should have been primed and there should have
been oil up there.  According to Randy some of the legends guys plug the internal galleys. When I
pulled the head off, sure enough, I found that there were plugs.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis %20Body/13706264007754_zpsb44bd76e.jpg)

But they weren't threaded in. They were made out of epoxy. Using the same trick from the damaged
bolt I took a piece of brass tube and put it up to the plugs inside the hole so I didn't damage the
head with the drill bit. The epoxy came out easily enough.  It was kind of a relief to find the plugs
actually. I was really worried about what else it could be if they weren't there and I REALLY didn't
want to crack the engine again.

Of course there was also the opportunity to correct past sins. Like putting RTV on the carb boots
because the original O-rings were shot and I couldn't get replacements on short notice. Randy was
kind enough to bring a set with him to the rally, so after I got them cleaned up the new O-rings went in.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis %20Body/13706263996180_zps0f6a5c08.jpg)


Getting the cylinder head on the second time went much more quickly than the first time around.
The cam setup was not as bad the second time around as I feared. Seeing as it just about fell
together the first time.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Chassis %20Body/13706264023200_zps1ab3912e.jpg)

And now with the plugs out oil finally flows up to the cam journals.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/29iR15m_Tq8 (http://www.youtube.com/embed/29iR15m_Tq8)" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I've not fully reassembled the bike and I'll get the startup video up tomorrow.

Here's a question for you guys. How hot should this motor be getting on break in?

Thanks for the update, it is good to see you making progress and getting closer to your Kookalooo... Can't wait to hear that its running.

Well, I don't know what happened to the links in the other post. Maybe you can copy it from the picture
that didn't load to see them. Not that they're really all that informative.

Anyway here is the link to the long awaited startup video.
http://youtu.be/ppOGQOCBswM (http://youtu.be/ppOGQOCBswM)

I know that I shouldn't have revved it, but it does idle pretty nicely.

I need to richen up the fuel delivery slightly. Currently I am sitting terrible rich at itdle, (like 45 to one)
and slightly lean at 6k RPM (11.5 to 1)  I'm taking it easy on her for the break in and the head
temperatures are starting to drop when I come back. 

 She,s alive again :good2: well done mate

Thanks. I now have 25 miles on the new motor and have already had several surprises with how these
things handle differently.

I also had quite the start when after coming back on mile 14, after it started making a strange noise,
I found oil ALL over the engine.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13708480488138_zps99262773.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13708480466324_zpsea958474.jpg)

After a little looking I found that the bolts holding the cam chain tensioner in place had backed out
leaving the whole assemble sitting one inch out of the cylinder head.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13708480461643_zpsff69ea1c.jpg)

This prompted me to pull the valve and timing cover off to make sure it hadn't jumped timing. (It didn't)
It was also a good time to check valve clearances and retouque the cylinder head. I was surprised it
needed almost a full turn on all of the nuts after 14 miles. I figured it wouldn't be so pronounced.
(Maybe this will help with the fact that this thing seems to just ooze oil from every seam.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13708480483637_zpse1a6f5b1.jpg)


Here's a gratuitous "the more things change the more they stay the same shot"...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/13708480492919_zps29b13bfe.jpg)

Hope the rest of your oil stays inside from now on,, looks like the back tyre could of taken an  oil bath :shok:could of been interesting

Quote from: fj11.5 on June 10, 2013, 02:37:22 AM
Hope the rest of your oil stays inside from now on,, looks like the back tyre could of taken an  oil bath :shok:could of been interesting

Yeah, seeing oil all over the rear tire is always a chilling sight. I had an oil leak develop on the V-45 after a
spirited ride on the Angeles crest highway and it sprayed oil all over the tire. It wasn't an issue until I was
almost home and decided to take a turn at a stoplight at about 15mph, leaned over real hard, and the bike
almost flipped over on the inside of the turn. The rear came out so violently that it slammed me into the
pavement. Really scared me off of cornering hard for a long time. No, that's not quite right. That happened
6 months ago, and I'm still a little skittish about dragging pegs. But I'm getting there. Things like this don't fill
me with confidence though.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13708480456822_zps0eeb8595.jpg)



I bought the old girl with 123,311.6 miles on the clock before I started the tear down. That's about 198,451
kilometers before she got a proper rebuild. Now with everything that's been tweaked and replaced it's like a
new machine.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13706685139562_zpsd1b0017c.jpg)


As it stands I have 28 miles on the motor, and have soooo much feedback on these things it's ridiculous. And
an equal number of questions to boot. I didn't realize how different the sound of a freshly rebuilt AIR cooled
motor would be compared to that of a liquid cooled one.  That stock rear brake pedal has a MONSTER amount
of authority compared to the Honda Magna's.   I mean, it's REALLY easy to lock up the rear brake. There's not
nearly the actual stopping power back there that the Magnas have, of course there's a LOT more braking
available on the fronts for the FJ. Also, it's really nice that when you do lock the rear up on the FJ it only does
this little wiggle. It's easy to manage and you don't feel like you're afraid to let it go because it's right under
you anyway. The Magnas have a nasty tendency to REALLY dance when you lock their rears up, especially if
you're already on the fronts hard.

Anyway, I know I have to get the skinny rear tire off of the bike before I really try to corner with it. But I am
glad I'm taking the straight line approach for break in because of things like the tensioner backing out. It isn't
cool to have the sound of the engine change then find something like this...


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13708480445810_zpsd47eccab.jpg)

(I know I'm going overboard with this, but having this thing come un-mounted seems like a really big deal to me)
I have so many questions about what is "Normal" with these things. How hot should it be getting? What sounds
are normal? Right now I have been just lightly to moderately loading the engine on acceleration sweeping from
3-6000 RPM in the first three gears and using engine braking to slow down. Things start to happen REALLY
quickly in third when approaching 6K...

I think I'm doing alright so far with fueling because this is what my plugs look like.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13706685135681_zpsd250bc30.jpg)

After my runs are done and I've shut down the cylinder head is between 260F and 320F with the cylinders being
between 220F and 260F, and the oil cooler being between 180F and 210F. Is this normal?  I've been trying to keep
the cylinder head under 300F, and the last ten miles it has been but barely.

Oh, and on a side note, in spite of how good a lot of things are on the FJ the mirros COMPLETELY SUCK!
I mean, between hardly being able to see behind you and the relection from the turn signal/running lights
at night they are almost useless.

And just an FYI, if you are tring to flash an Innovate LM-2 meter, don't use your laptop to do it.
It'll brick the thing and Innovate will want to charge you $45 to reflash it for you.

Mirrors sucking is definitely a known issue! There are threads here on the appropriate replacements, but I'm fairly sure CBR1000RR mirrors go on pretty nicely, and knock offs are available on ebay for around $25ish. They look good too.

(popcorn)

Exciting to read this all! And that cam chain tensioner backing out... Sounds like you just didn't put it on good enough, don't know what to say. That shouldn't happen. :\

A 150 still isn't a skinny rear tire! You can do some serious cornering with a stock setup as long as you've got Radials on there, though I'm sure modding it only makes it that much better.

So excited she's running again!

Just pretend you taxiing a tail dragger.... Do a bunch of funky "S" turns...... It's a pain in the .....  One nice thing about wrecking my bike is the damn mirrors are gone now :).   There is a bright side to things...
George

Quote from: fintip on June 10, 2013, 02:48:17 PM
Exciting to read this all! And that cam chain tensioner backing out... Sounds like you just didn't put it on good enough, don't know what to say. That shouldn't happen. :\

Yeah, after thinking about it I realized that I skipped using the torque wrench on it when I had
the head off to go after the oil galley plugs. I was so focused on that and making sure that I
got the cam timing right that I missed it.

Quote from: movenon on June 10, 2013, 04:17:41 PM
Just pretend you taxiing a tail dragger.... Do a bunch of funky "S" turns...... It's a pain in the .....  One nice thing about wrecking my bike is the damn mirrors are gone now :).   There is a bright side to things...
George

Sorry again about your bike George. I suppose on the bright side, this thing is like the twin of
your bike. So at least there's another one out there.

I'll have to work my way up to the low speed rolls. As it stands I need to be sure that the engine
is keeping the oil on the inside for a while first...

I've been intrigued by your engine build, and especially your coatings, and processes..................
A friend of mine in NY got me interested in internal engine coatings, during the various stages of his 550-ish Horsepower 2.7liter stroker SVO Mustang turbo build.(I think it has a Volvo Dohc head on it now?)

Upon reading the posts in this thread, it seems like you've coated many different parts inside this engine.............I'd be interested in hearing more detail about them....

On a different note, you mentioned your air/fuel ratio at being slightly lean at 11.5:1
I could be wrong, and maybe my understanding of the air-cooled FJ engine is off? :flag_of_truce:
While I know some engines will vary a little, it is my understanding that somewhere around 13:1 is ideal, and when you start going above that you are going slightly lean.......

For comparison, my 1995 Firehawk with the Stock LT1 engine, gained 8hp, and nearly 10 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels when I had the computer re-flashed with a slightly leaner tune (I had to have is flashed to change my speedometer when I changed the gears to 3.90:1, and we decided to try a different engine tune at the same time)
We leaned it to around 14.2:1 at WOT...........

Based on the dyno tune Frank (Flynt) had done at Factory Pro- best power & reliability is probably closer to 12.5 AFR on the air cooled FJ lump.  You may pick up some power a little leaner than that -- maybe 13.0 or so -- but probably better a little richer for extended hard running.  I'd have to think 11.5 is a bit on the rich side. 

Are you datalogging with the LM1?  I havent used an LM1 so I'm not familiar with the capabilities - I have used the LC1, DL32, and SSI4 on both the streetbike and the dragbike. 

Will be interesting to see if all the coatings will make for a cooler running engine that likes a leaner mixture than most FJs

Quote from: Firehawk068 on June 11, 2013, 01:48:50 AM

On a different note, you mentioned your air/fuel ratio at being slightly lean at 11.5:1
I could be wrong, and maybe my understanding of the air-cooled FJ engine is off? :flag_of_truce:

Well, that's just me being an idiot. (There are a lot of examples of that in this thread...) I figured since it smelled
so rich at startup that the 26-50 to 1 or so numbers must be showing rich and that when I rolled it on that it
"dropped" to 11.5 to 1 and "leaned out" Now that I am understanding the meter better I am more comfortable
with the setup. As it stands if I leave the choke on and ride it the AFR is about stays about in the range of
11.6-13.5 to 1. If I take the choke off and am glacier slow with the throttle the AFR sits right between 14-14.7 to 1.
If I ride smoothly, sweeping the RPM as I go, the AFR varies a little more in the range of 14.4-16 to 1. (Getting out
to 16 is a little on the lean side but the engine doesn't make any funny noises. I basically try not to let it go past 14
and use the choke here and there. So far the head temps are more stable on shutdown with the cylinder head being
more comfortably under 300F at 70 miles so far.

I'm telling you though, I keep breaking stuff. I took her out again yesterday afternoon for another slightly longer run,
got to the 40 mile mark, and heard a noise while slowing down. Of course it was nice being able to do it in the daylight
because you are so limited with your ability to ride fast and see road hazards at night. Anyway, when I got back home
I was looking around at things and saw that I needed to adjust the chain. And then I noticed this...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13709304924680_zps5ebdb4b6.jpg)


Was like "wait a minute..." and took a closer look.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13709305265581_zps7841a71c.jpg)

I am beginning to come to the realization that EVERY noise means something. It's just a matter of actually finding out
what it was that made it.

This was a simple fix. But it's unsettling to find things just breaking everywhere.

Quote from: Firehawk068 on June 11, 2013, 01:48:50 AM

Upon reading the posts in this thread, it seems like you've coated many different parts inside this engine.............I'd be interested in hearing more detail about them....

Well I am using Techline coating products. There are different coatings that they market that have properties that make
them more suited for some parts than others. I used about half a quart of Cermalube which is a durable oil retaining high
load ceramic lubricant. It was used on the bearings, piston skirts, piston pins, piston pin bores, connecting rod small end
bores, transmission gears and shafts, clutch pushrod, clutch basket bearing and bushing, camshafts, camshaft gears,
camshaft journals in the cylinder head, spring cups, crankshaft, oil pump parts, and shift drum. (I think that's all of it)

Then there is the Thermal Dispersant. It's a thin oil shedding coating that is supposed to aid in head rejection. I used
about 3/4 of a quart on the engine cases, oil pan, cylinder head fins, connecting rods, and crankshaft (non bearing surfaces).

The thermal barrier was applied to the piston tops, combustion chambers, and valve faces.

I'll have to look up the specs on the coatings  I used on the ports and valve stems.

Quote from: fj1289 on June 11, 2013, 10:34:48 AM
Are you datalogging with the LM1?  I havent used an LM1 so I'm not familiar with the capabilities - I have used the LC1, DL32, and SSI4 on both the streetbike and the dragbike.  

Will be interesting to see if all the coatings will make for a cooler running engine that likes a leaner mixture than most FJs

I'm actually using a LM-2 meter. So far I have it set up to log RPM and AFR. It's been FOREVER since I used the thing.
(Bought it five years ago, hence the original firmware) That and having issues initially getting the RPM signal to work.
After a look at the shop manual I traced the tachometer while to the grey coil lead. After I hooked up the black wire
with the white tracer off of the analog data cable I finally got a good signal. (Set up to count on rev for every two pulses)  

I'll have to post the log when I download it so I can see where I'm at.


As for the coatings, I am hopeful that they will make a difference. So far I haven't had any indication of pinging or knocking.
Of course I've been running 91 octane and been really easy on it...

Looks like the bolt on the brake arm may have been loose, seeing how the holes flogged out :scratch_one-s_head:,, guess its better than having the front calipers fall off :wacko2:

Quote from: fj11.5 on June 11, 2013, 05:42:24 PM
Looks like the bolt on the brake arm may have been loose, seeing how the holes flogged out :scratch_one-s_head:,, guess its better than having the front calipers fall off :wacko2:

This is actually one bolt I did take special care to put back together right. The only thing I can think of is that
it sheared because it was worn out from being loose when I got it.

Okay, never mind about keeping it under 300 it's cooks as 328 after a moderate run. On the bright side from
what I am seeing the fuel air ratio richens up from 14 something to around 12 to one or so when I roll on and
the bike starts to stretch my arms a little. It gets up to an indicated 100 really quick, at which point it's engine
braking back down to 50.

Here's what I'm using to look at the AFR. Of course I'm only glancing at it since things are really moving...
Just a note, but these things don't recognize larger than 2GB SD cards...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13709862407420_zpsbd365047.jpg)

Well I'm now one oil change into this. (90 miles on the dot) I have to say. I was not expecting there to be so
much metal stuck to the filter magnet I put in there. Although I'm really glad I had it in there.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13710586795913_zps23937c1b.jpg)

I would definitely recommend one of these for your FJ if you don't have one. I just wonder, with this much iron
floating around, how much aluminum did the filter eat?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13710586788990_zps4545fa19.jpg)

The oil definitely looked funny as well. All of the excess cermalube that has burnished off is swirling in it like little
graphite flakes. I suppose that'll clear up on the second or third change, I hope.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13710586795572_zps7162ccc4.jpg)


I think the main part of my oil leak initially, aside from the cam chain tensioner backing out, was the old oil plug
washer being shot. Now that there's a new one in there it there's not a light oil film all over the engine. (Which is nice)

But I am still plagued with leaks. I mean, I put a new crank end plug in when I put the cases back together and now THIS!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13710586790981_zps7865f810.jpg)

I'm fantasizing that maybe it's just a break in thing and it'll clear up. That maybe I won't have to pull it out and
tap a new one in with some RTV... (At least that's what I'm telling myself)

The mileage I am getting so far is abysmal, but I think it's because the engine was so dang tight to start with.
I have hit the 130 mile mark and got 26mpg on the first tank.

I am more than happy with how these carburetors are performing. Now that I'm actually starting to get more power
on the roll ons I can see the AFR dropping to 11.5 to one under as heavy a load as I can handle at the moment.
(It's accelerating like crazy compared to anything I've ever been on) Most of the time it sits in the 12.5 -13.5 to 1
range when I roll on and sweep up to 8K. I know there was some discussion about the quarter turn throttle and the
sensitivity of it, but I have fallen in love with how precise the control it gives me over the engine's output. With subtle
changes in wrist torque I can roll on or off without having to change my hand position at all. I really like that.


Here is a question for the masses. How much of a temperature differential are you getting, when you shut down,
between the cylinder head fins between cylinders 1 and 4? Right now I am seeing about 50F. Is this normal? I mean,
I know I should expect some temperature rise around cylinder 1 because the oil flows through the cams from 4 to 1,
but this seems like a lot. 

Side note, I know it's perfectly safe, but seeing this buy parked a spot over gave me a hitch. Then I had to laugh.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13710748299861_zps515a0448.jpg)

The black stuff just dousnt want to stay in  :dash2:, you didn't use harley oil did you  :lol:,, that brake arm bolt must of been ready to snap, 

Quote from: fj11.5 on June 12, 2013, 05:38:38 PM
The black stuff just dousnt want to stay in  :dash2:, you didn't use harley oil did you  :lol:,, that brake arm bolt must of been ready to snap, 

No, no harley oil :ireful:

But I still have leaks popping up!  :dash1: Now on the ride this morning I have oil smoke from what looks like the valve cover on the let side near piston one.
Have any of you guys had issues like this trying to keep oil in a new motor? I've never seen anything like it before.  :morning2:

It could just be the picture, but is that crank seal pressed in square? t looks to be deeper into the case at the bottom than it is at the top. That could possibly cause a small leak.

Quote from: skymasteres on June 13, 2013, 09:29:54 AM

Quote from: fj11.5 on June 12, 2013, 05:38:38 PM
The black stuff just dousnt want to stay in  :dash2:, you didn't use harley oil did you  :lol:,, that brake arm bolt must of been ready to snap, 

No, no harley oil :ireful:

But I still have leaks popping up!  :dash1: Now on the ride this morning I have oil smoke from what looks like the valve cover on the let side near piston one.
Have any of you guys had issues like this trying to keep oil in a new motor? I've never seen anything like it before.  :morning2:

Other than the unlikely event that you have fitted multiple gaskets and seals poorly, next thing I would check is crankcase pressure. Make sure that it is venting freely. Also check the amount of crankcase pressure to make sure it is not excessive.

Noel

Are you using a torque wrench? After seeing the can chain tensioner fall off, can't help but wonder... ;)

Quote from: fintip on June 13, 2013, 10:20:21 PM
Are you using a torque wrench? After seeing the can chain tensioner fall off, can't help but wonder... ;)

You know I would be insulted if it weren't for the fact that given all of the other evidence you
really could wonder. But rest assured, I did in fact use a torque wrench on every nut and bolt
that had a torque value listed in the shop manual. I just missed the cam chain tensioner when
I had the head off looking for those cylinder head oil galley plugs.

I pulled her in for the second oil change (200 miles) and found more oil residue on the cylinder
block. At this point my mind is going to all sorts of bad places seeing as this thing is just oozing
everywhere.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13712241146911_zpsbd389f13.jpg)


There was definitely a lot less metal on the filter magnet this time around. I thought that it was
a sign that the wear process is reaching competition...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13712241148942_zpsa973bda8.jpg)


But I think it is more likely that most of the metal that would have ended up on the filter magnet
has instead been deposited here.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13712241159306_zps3f2f9454.jpg)


I know it doesn't look like much but when you clean the little magnets off you can see just how
much there was covering them.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13712241154734_zpsbc599c87.jpg)


I think it will be interesting to see just how long it takes for the quantity of metal being caught by
the magnets drops. The other item of interest is the way the oil looks coming out of the crankcase.
It looks really dark, but it's being colored by the graphite like material suspended in the oil. 
I wonder how many oil changes it's going to take before the oil comes out clean.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13712241143980_zps92a23146.jpg)


I also finally found the source of the rogue oil leak. Seems that the non-hardening gasket material that
I used was not up to the task of sealing at the temperatures the cylinder head was experiencing. It
dried out and allowed oil to leak around the little aluminum half-moons that fill the voids in the valve
cover gasket sealing area.



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13712241159245_zpsd23f73f4.jpg)


This is good news because it explains why the leaks seamed to magically appear and why when I
would plug one, another would show up.

Now the old girl occupies a prod spot in the boneyard as the only fully operational motorcycle.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13712265598990_zpsc947f66b.jpg)

Gasket material choice should have been the obvious next diagnosis, I guess. And yeah, you're obviously a pro, so I was just as surprised as you were about the oil leaks--my comment about bolt tension was mostly tongue in cheek, but I have to admit, I wondered if you had been a little timid after your bolting-up misadventures! I know I would be.  :pardon:

Thanks for putting so much into this writeup.  I for one sure learned alot!

Now can't wait hear how it runs above 7500 rpm!

Jeff

Quote from: fintip on June 17, 2013, 03:04:13 PM
Gasket material choice should have been the obvious next diagnosis, I guess. And yeah, you're obviously a pro, so I was just as surprised as you were about the oil leaks--my comment about bolt tension was mostly tongue in cheek, but I have to admit, I wondered if you had been a little timid after your bolting-up misadventures! I know I would be.  :pardon:

No worries. I realize that there is a lot of room for me to make mistakes here. Or maybe more like I'm in good
company when I do. I'm definitely not a pro at this, but I'm getting better. The more I learn about this stuff
the easier trouble shooting gets. Now I actually have a pretty good understanding of all of the things that
make noise in this engine and it helps with the uncertainty of what's "normal".

Quote from: jscgdunn on June 17, 2013, 03:08:06 PM
Thanks for putting so much into this writeup.  I for one sure learned alot!
Now can't wait hear how it runs above 7500 rpm!

Jeff

I'm glad you learned something. I know I sure did. As for 7500 rpm, there's really no characteristic change until
you actually get to full throttle. From 4000-7500 there is this sort of wine that sounds like a turbo charger.
Once you get onto full steam with the throttle wide open the wine transitions to this amazing howl that sounds
like an F-16 engine starting up. Kind of a deep "bowooo" sound but with the wind thrashing around you and your
heart starting to race as the speedo starts pointing down again...

I think that is my favorite feature of this bike now. The ability to move through the wind with impunity. Out here
we get regular winds anywhere between 20 and 50 miles per hour. I have a headwind most days on the ride home.
With the old V-45, I had to chill out in the right lane because I'd be slowing everyone down bucking the wind.
Not anymore.

There are definitely things that are still a surprise though. Last night I was on my way home in fourth gear at
about 5000 rpm. I was distracted and thoughtlessly cracked the throttle a lot more briskly than I normally do.
The motorcycle reacted instantaneously and it was the sensation of it trying to jump out from under me that
really got my attention. I really need to stay on top of this thing.

On the modding front I have finally installed an oil temperature gauge. I know most of you use the fairing panel
to the right of the fuel tank to mount your gauge. But since I really want to eventually put a digital gauge in I
decided to make up my own mounting plate and attach it to the triple clamp. Here is what I came up with.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13716673286394_zps9dc529e7.jpg)


It's just some sheet steel from an old dryer that I trimmed to fit and painted. I'm still looking at other ideas,
but this fits really well and it's simple. Two things I think I'd change. One, slip the gauge down slightly closer
to the triple clamp, and make it out of slightly thicker steel. Maybe even 1/8" aluminum. The great thing about
it is the needle is rock solid mounted here and it doesn't vibrate and bounce all over the place like it did when
I had it temporarily mounted on the right panel.



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13716673283043_zpsdfce5f4b.jpg)


The other nice thing is it doesn't disappear behind my tank bag like it would have mounted on the right hand
panel. It clears the instrument cluster lock to lock and doesn't obstruct my view of anything. I figure I can
put a power jack on the unused side.

Here's a question. I have been riding without the side panels on just yet. When the bike is all warmed up I get
some intensely hot air coming out right under my thighs and but. It's actually hot enough I'm close to getting
burned. Is this normal? The cylinder head temps are staying under 380F and the oil never gets over 210F.  
Any ideas?

Well said on how she runs.... :hi:

Great work on the gauge mount mate,could see a few like that from now on  :good2:,, on your heat question, I've not ridden  mine without the panels fitted, but used to ride an 88 fzr1000,  that bike used to pump out serious heat,  was great in winter, but felt like a furnace in summer,

Quote from: skymasteres on April 11, 2013, 01:27:48 PM

Now, since I have the crank out anyway, let's find out how much it weighs. According to my
digital bathroom scale, with a precision of 0.2#'s, the weight of my lightened crank is 23.2#'s. This number would mean
more if I knew what the thing weighed in the first place, but it'll have to do for now...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine/13656943409692_zps31bd4f66.jpg)

Quote from: racerrad8 on June 20, 2013, 06:16:41 PM


The range of the cranks is 27.2 to 30.0 of all of them I have weighed over the years.

I just pulled a crank that I am replacing from an engine today and it weighs 27.3lbs

Randy - RPM

Well now I have a weight comparison. If a stock crank is 27.3 pounds, then I lost 3.9 pounds off the crank. That seems like a lot.  :yahoo:

That is a lot, the spin up will be quicker...

Quote from: FJmonkey on June 20, 2013, 07:06:45 PM
That is a lot, the spin up will be quicker...

And according to Frank spin DOWN is quick enough to mash your nuts into the back of the tank too!

Quote from: fj1289 on June 20, 2013, 09:46:45 PM

Quote from: FJmonkey on June 20, 2013, 07:06:45 PM
That is a lot, the spin up will be quicker...

And according to Frank spin DOWN is quick enough to mash your nuts into the back of the tank too!

Yep, I remember that part now, throttle is the brake when you lighten the crank....  :shok: :shok: :shok:

Quote from: FJmonkey on June 20, 2013, 10:04:40 PM

Quote from: fj1289 on June 20, 2013, 09:46:45 PM

Quote from: FJmonkey on June 20, 2013, 07:06:45 PM
That is a lot, the spin up will be quicker...

And according to Frank spin DOWN is quick enough to mash your nuts into the back of the tank too!

Yep, I remember that part now, throttle is the brake when you lighten the crank....  :shok: :shok: :shok:

1349cc plus flatslide carbs and a lightened crank definitely demands 100 percent focus and recalibration of the right wrist.

KOokaloo!

Put it on a dyno! Please!

I 2nd that.
It would be cool to have a Dyno sheet thread to see whats out there lurking.
JUST SAYIN.

Quote from: FJmonkey on June 20, 2013, 07:06:45 PM

1349cc plus flatslide carbs and a lightened crank definitely demands 100 percent focus and recalibration of the right wrist.

KOokaloo!

You're definitely right about the need to pay attention. This machine is a little bit of a Jekyll and Hyde character.
She's all sweet and steady with lots of torque available at 3000rpm, but get her in the 8000+ range and hang on.

Quote from: fintip on June 21, 2013, 12:55:37 PM
Put it on a dyno! Please!

Quote from: Flying Scotsman on June 21, 2013, 12:59:30 PM
I 2nd that.
It would be cool to have a Dyno sheet thread to see whats out there lurking.
JUST SAYIN.

Duly noted on the dyno run guys. I would like to see that myself, but I still have a lot of bugs to work out with this
thing. I mean, I still have the issue of the uneven cylinder head temps. I think Pat is right and maybe that carb is
running leaner than the rest. I still haven't verified it though. The only other possibility that comes to mind is that
the ceramic barrier failed on piston number one and it's not dumping the heat out the pipe like it's supposed to.
(But I hope that's not it)

On the bright side she's all dressed up now.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/13719574595490_zpsb840cbcc.jpg)


I can definitely say that it makes a big difference having the side covers on with respect to how much heat I feel
on the bottom of my thighs. That being said the seat still gets quite warm. (I'm considering putting some aluminum
duct repair tape on the bottom of the seat pan to see if I can reflect some of the heat away.)

Now for the 750 mile oil change. So far I've changed the oil at 90, 200, and now 750 miles.  It was really disconcerting
to pull the chin faring off and find one of my oil pan bolts sitting on the heat shielding. (I guess I shouldn't have used
anti-seize on the bolts) Anyway, I got under it and verified that there was only one missing.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13720988726922_zps1676b155.jpg)

I put some thread locker on it, put it back in, and re-torqued it. Then I went and verified that all of the other bolts
were still tight. I don't know why this one fell out, but I am impressed that it stayed there on the chin fairing.
I wouldn't have thought to check for missing oil pan bolts had it not been sitting there. Fortunately it doesn't appear
that the seal for the oil pan is compromised and the is no evidence that it caused a leak.

I am surprised that after 750 miles of moderate to heavy engine loading that I am still getting as much metal on the
drain plug magnet as I am. I don't know how long this is going to go on, but it feels like a lot of metal is being
collected by this thing.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13720988482351_zps6d69bb01.jpg)


And here is it cleaned off for comparison. I guess it's good that the filter magnet had hardly any metal on it this time around.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13720988482330_zpscf6ec62e.jpg)
I figure once this starts coming out cleaner I'll switch it over to synthetic oil.

I actually only got 2.5 quarts out of the bike this time. Last oil change I pulled almost 4 quarts out of her. I guess
that would explain why it was so easy to get the oil light to come on with moderate acceleration. (I kept backing
off because it seemed like it was coming on too easily.)

Anyway, I'm fairly certain I'm using oil. I checked the level before I did my last ride prior to the oil change and it
was right between the two witness lines flanking the glass viewport. When I changed it it was nearer to the bottom
mark. This morning on startup there was a pretty good puff of smoke from both exhaust pipes when she fired up.
I'll keep my eye on it, but I'm concerned about my valve stem seals. I know I'm leaking a little at the crankshaft
blind plug, but I'm fairly certain it's not 1.5qt worth per 500 miles...

Quote from: skymasteres on June 24, 2013, 02:46:15 PM
I can definitely say that it makes a big difference having the side covers on with respect to how much heat I feel
on the bottom of my thighs. That being said the seat still gets quite warm. (I'm considering putting some aluminum
duct repair tape on the bottom of the seat pan to see if I can reflect some of the heat away.)

A piece of this cut to fit would work nicely: 

http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&pageIndex=622 (http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&pageIndex=622)

1.5 qts in 500 is a lot. I find it odd the right seal is leaking...there is good crush on that.

Quote from: not a lib on June 24, 2013, 02:52:08 PM
A piece of this cut to fit would work nicely: 

http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&pageIndex=622 (http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&pageIndex=622)

You know what, that stuff looks perfect for this application. In fact I think I am going to use it on the
inside of the side covers as well. I also need to look at the ducting effect the side covers have and do
some pondering with respect to the airflow under the tail section. It seems to me that there are some
things I can do to create a more effective path and maybe even create a negative pressure area that
will pull more air through... (Oh boy, I'm doing it again...)

Quote from: JMR on June 25, 2013, 06:08:43 PM
1.5 qts in 500 is a lot. I find it odd the right seal is leaking...there is good crush on that.

Yeah, that's what I thought. The other problem is going to be replacing it. I ordered a new plug from
Randy, but I'm still mulling over what the best way to go about installing it is. I think I may have set
the one I installed the first time too deep in the hole and perhaps slightly crooked.

The other thing is I am leaning away from having issues with my valve stem seals. When I started it up
yesterday there was no smoke on the initial startup. I left it run to warm up, but it died after about three
minutes. (Just like it did the day prior) When I started it up again, THEN I go the puff of smoke on startup.
It would have done the same thing this morning had I not used the choke. (Although it definitely smokes
a little with the choke on, but I think this is due to the really rich mixture)

Another thing that was initially a cause for concern was taking the bike down to Sylmar. I was riding two
up and the oil temps were consistently around 220F. (This is higher than the 180-210F I have been seeing)
I was alarmed because the outside air temperature was only 85F and I was doing a lot more downhill than
up with lighter than normal engine loadings. I knew the gauge was probably reading correctly when I pulled
out my IR temp gun and shot the cylinder heads to see where they were sitting, (Right around 380F). This
was also corroborated by the heat I was feeling under the seat. (I'll tell you though, one thing that'll REALLY
make you paranoid is going down a hill when your bike is running warmer than normal, and being surrounded
by people riding their brakes. You keep smelling all kinds of heat sources and thinking it's the bike)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13722667386912_zpscc62b56d.jpg)


I am definitely leaking more oil than I am burning, if any. I'll know on the latter if and when I get the external
leaks under control. (Like the little dutch boy) I think that my right hand galley plug is cracked because I am
getting more of a leak on there. I also think that when I tried to use a socket to square up the crankshaft
drain plug that I made the leak there worse. Since I didn't use a new washer on the oil plug this last time
around I think I am leaking oil there as well. The leak is bad enough that I am about a quart low after only
311.4 miles. There is enough oil getting on the exhaust that I can sometimes see a little smoke drift past me
when I stop at lights. 

Here is a look at another suspect plug. (I never removed this one to replace the o-ring, if there is one, so it may be cooked)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13722667376310_zps9b8ad41d.jpg)

And then there is all the associated evidence of the oil splattering back over everything.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13722667381621_zpsbf54478a.jpg)


And once again, every noise has a source. I was wondering why I was hearing this strange rattle and feeling
an odd vibration when going over bumps. This is what I found. (I think the high mileage of the motorcycle
overall is starting to show here)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13722667391593_zpsa7e1a92c.jpg)


Slightly disconcerting is a phantom high pitched rattle or squeal that comes and goes. I'm not entirely
sure it isn't the sound of the goPro camera pad I just mounted to my helmet. It almost sounds like the
slides rattling, but there's a sort of spawling sound to it as well. It seems to happen around somewhere
around 6500rpm in fifth. At first I thought I was the sound of a dry bearing so I pulled over to check the
oil level. It was fine, and the oil cooler was at 190F so I know the oil pump hadn't failed. (I figure a LOT
of other indications would be present if it had) So I'm kind of at a loss right now. I'll try a different
helmet to rule out the mount.   I guess it's like having a first child. You don't quite know what to expect
and it's always surprising you. (That and you're super paranoid about misreading a symptom and doing
something wrong...)

Anyway, any feedback on the blind plug seal instillation would be appreciated.

The squeeling noise you heard, may or may not be your speedo, cable,or drive from the wheel,I had a gsx years ago that would eat speedo cables every chance it got, would let this horrible screeching sound,  and a few seconds later, or maybe a week later, it would screech again and then the speedo would stop working, another cable snapped, still covered in lube, after a few months of this,  and working out what wasn't causing it, found out it was a semi seized speedo

Dude, when will your bolt misadventures end?!

Still reading everything here. That bike deserves a custom paint job, though. The theft-deterrent paint just ain't good enough for that machine of beauty.

:drinks:

Quote from: not a lib on June 24, 2013, 02:52:08 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on June 24, 2013, 02:46:15 PM
I can definitely say that it makes a big difference having the side covers on with respect to how much heat I feel
on the bottom of my thighs. That being said the seat still gets quite warm. (I'm considering putting some aluminum
duct repair tape on the bottom of the seat pan to see if I can reflect some of the heat away.)

A piece of this cut to fit would work nicely: 

http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&pageIndex=622 (http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&pageIndex=622)

I've used material like that for home building behind tongue and groove pine but I didn't think it would hold up to an engine's direct heat. However there is a sheet on their site that reports surviving 250 F for 96 hours on direct contact without degrading. Impressive.
http://www.reflectixinc.com/images/uploads/allpdfs/t20%20hot%20surface%20performance%20c%20411.pdf (http://www.reflectixinc.com/images/uploads/allpdfs/t20%20hot%20surface%20performance%20c%20411.pdf)

Quote from: fj11.5 on June 26, 2013, 04:21:23 PM
The squeeling noise you heard, may or may not be your speedo, cable,or drive from the wheel,I had a gsx years ago that would eat speedo cables every chance it got, would let this horrible screeching sound,  and a few seconds later, or maybe a week later, it would screech again and then the speedo would stop working, another cable snapped, still covered in lube, after a few months of this,  and working out what wasn't causing it, found out it was a semi seized speedo

See? This is why it's great to ask questions on an open forum. The speedo cable wasn't something that I had even considered. I will be lubing it before I take her out again.

Quote from: Charlie-brm on June 30, 2013, 07:56:27 PM

Quote from: not a lib on June 24, 2013, 02:52:08 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on June 24, 2013, 02:46:15 PM
I can definitely say that it makes a big difference having the side covers on with respect to how much heat I feel
on the bottom of my thighs. That being said the seat still gets quite warm. (I'm considering putting some aluminum
duct repair tape on the bottom of the seat pan to see if I can reflect some of the heat away.)

A piece of this cut to fit would work nicely: 

http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&pageIndex=622 (http://www.reflectixinc.com/basepage.asp?Page=Double+Reflective+Insulation&pageIndex=622)

I've used material like that for home building behind tongue and groove pine but I didn't think it would hold up to an engine's direct heat. However there is a sheet on their site that reports surviving 250 F for 96 hours on direct contact without degrading. Impressive.
http://www.reflectixinc.com/images/uploads/allpdfs/t20%20hot%20surface%20performance%20c%20411.pdf (http://www.reflectixinc.com/images/uploads/allpdfs/t20%20hot%20surface%20performance%20c%20411.pdf)

You know, I have to say that material looks like a real winner. I ordered a 24"x25' roll of it off of amazon for $25. (Gotta love the internet, I figure I can use this stuff on the other bikes as well to replace missing heat shielding) It might work, but I am a little wary about the magnitude of the heat being thrown off. (I suppose on the bright side, I won't need a seat heater in the winter time. All I have to do is remove this stuff...)

Quote from: fintip on June 26, 2013, 11:55:16 PM
Dude, when will your bolt misadventures end?!

Still reading everything here. That bike deserves a custom paint job, though. The theft-deterrent paint just ain't good enough for that machine of beauty.

:drinks:

You know it's beyond me that I am still having issues with bolts. I mean, I get her all taken apart again
to adjust the valve lash (She's at 1200 miles now) and I find this guy when I pull off the exhaust.
(all signs point to not any time soon) [I'll have to think about the paint. I have a tendency to stick with stock.
That and the fact that I have yet to own a bike for more than a year without putting it down. We'll have to see...)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13727164878611_zps72da6284.jpg)

Now of course at first I was cussing under my breath and realizing that this must be the cause of the sudden
increase in oil usage. And of course it was the one oil pan bolt that didn't get re-torqued the first time around.
But wait, there's more...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13727164788481_zps3917cda5.jpg)

I found these guys outright missing when I got down on my back and just about wedged my nugget under the
frame.  I'm simply amazed that my oil pan seal still seems to be intact. It would have been a really bad thing for
it to just come loose while headed down the highway. I am going to be systematically pulling all the fasteners I
can get to, putting thread locker on them, and re-torqueing them to spec.

Now here is an interesting thing. I started noticing that it was getting harder and harder to bump start the bike
if I stalled it out while it was warm in a parking lot or something. At first I thought it was just that I was getting
tired. But then I realized that while pushing it in first with the clutch pulled in it was rolling less and less easily.
I started noticing other symptoms as well. Like it shifting hard into first with a pronounced clunk and neutral
being very difficult to get into while stopped with the engine running.

The thing that kind of threw me was the fact that the clutch slave was freshly rebuilt so I did some digging
and found this thread.

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1143.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1143.0)

Where 83elite was having the same issue.

I'll try the re-bleading and see if that does is.

Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on July 01, 2013, 05:11:26 PM
How old is the clutch line?  If it's the original rubber line, it could be swelling and causing you to lose lever efficiency.

Hooligan

You know that's a good point. And could very well be the root cause as all of the lines are original to the bike.
The only thing that gives me a moment's pause was how wonderfully the clutch performed over the first 800 miles or so.

So at 1200 miles on the engine I think I am finally seeing some reduction in the amount of metal that is on the drain plug magnet.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13727164850408_zps0c1e7739.jpg)

I figure this will be my last oil change before I switch over to synthetic. (Probably do it at 2000 miles)

As for the bling plug, I got the old one pulled out. (Ended up putting a heavy flat bladed screwdriver through
it and prying the sucker out.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13727164862459_zpsdc77aa50.jpg)

Putting the new one in was considerable easier than I had feared. I just lubed the edge with some oil and
used a flat surface to press it in by hand. I ended up using a few taps from a rubber mallet to fully seat it.
Hopefully the thing won't leak now.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13727164795252_zps863f7e3c.jpg)

Speaking of leaks, I pulled the galley plug out of the oil pan and found two things. It wasn't tight anymore,
and the o-ring was crushed flat. I ended up getting a replacement from the magic hardware store that
carries metric parts.

Of course I have some slight modifications planned that require removing the faring from the frame.
I'll have some words on that shortly, but D'Oh! Sometimes it helps to check before taking advice on face value.
More to come, stay tuned...

you know, watching this thread (ive read the whole damn thing) is like watching an action drama on tv. you never know whats gonna happen next! but I have enjoyed reading about your venture and it makes me want to do more to my bike. hope that everything pans out well. It sounds like you are starting to get it all figured out... for now! :good: :drinks:

Quote from: skymasteres on June 26, 2013, 12:46:06 PM



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13722667391593_zpsa7e1a92c.jpg)

This may be stating something that you have already seen and fixed.

In the above photo, it appears to me that the right center stand bolt is missing. could be a possible source for the occasional rattle or thunking noise when bumpy roads are being ridden on.

My understanding is that line expansion contributes a very small amount to clutch feel, but is not at all capable of causing the type of clutch failure you are describing.

While a rebuild is in order, on my clutch, which does have a leaking slave, I have been able to get by for some time by just topping it off with brake fluid and squeezing. What I have found is that it is an intermittent leak; usually I will have to fill it up a couple times, and then, voila, months with perfect service. Then one day it will start giving the symptoms you describe again.

I just got a rebuild kit for the slave, so hopefully I'll be done with it here soon. At least for another 3 years or so.

Watch out for the effects of that leak on the belly pan! Mine was intact when I got mine, but that leak killed it. I still have it in two pieces, to be repaired at a later date. I wonder if when I repaint it, if I paint it with a white brake caliper paint, if it would resist the corrosive effects of the brake fluid on the plastic underneath? It should, right? It would just be a question of getting the color to match. I guess I could get an automotive paint color matched then to the caliper paint color, actually, since I'll likely do the whole bike at that point.

I digress!

Cannot believe your luck with bolts. Something really sounds fishy. Didn't you lock-tite them all the first time? Are you using your torque wrench right? I'm just flabbergasted, I've never heard of anything like this.

Oh, by the way--why are you waiting to use synthetic? You don't believe that old wives tale about naturally derived oils being required for break-in, do you?

Quote from: HARTLESS on July 01, 2013, 07:00:35 PM
you know, watching this thread (ive read the whole damn thing) is like watching an action drama on tv. you never know whats gonna happen next! but I have enjoyed reading about your venture and it makes me want to do more to my bike. hope that everything pans out well. It sounds like you are starting to get it all figured out... for now! :good: :drinks:

It has certainly been a learning experience to be sure. I'm glad you are entertained with all of the ins and outs of this build.
It's funny because now that I have some miles on the motor I'm back into the enjoying the project mentality and not just
grinding it out like I was when I was trying to get her running for the rally.

Quote from: aviationfred on July 01, 2013, 10:58:08 PM
This may be stating something that you have already seen and fixed.

In the above photo, it appears to me that the right center stand bolt is missing. could be a possible source for the occasional rattle or thunking noise when bumpy roads are being ridden on.

You have a good eye my friend. That is exactly what I was illustrating with that picture. And your inference is correct.
That was the source of the clunking noise while going over bumps. I have removed the center stand while I search for
a local replacement for the other shoulder bolt. Keep looking at things critically though. Maybe you guys will see
something I don't. (It's happened before)

Quote from: fintip on July 02, 2013, 11:37:27 AM
My understanding is that line expansion contributes a very small amount to clutch feel, but is not at all capable of causing the type of clutch failure you are describing.

While a rebuild is in order, on my clutch, which does have a leaking slave, I have been able to get by for some time by just topping it off with brake fluid and squeezing. What I have found is that it is an intermittent leak; usually I will have to fill it up a couple times, and then, voila, months with perfect service. Then one day it will start giving the symptoms you describe again.

I just got a rebuild kit for the slave, so hopefully I'll be done with it here soon. At least for another 3 years or so.

Well, I have a feeling I have a leak somewhere. I'll just go with re-bleeding for now and see how it goes. I am loth to
think it is the slave cylinder though because I just rebuilt it with fresh seals and polished it all up internally before assembly.
(Well, cleaned it real well with scotchbright pads to get rid of all the ugly spots. Not a real polish till it's a mirror job)

Quote from: fintip on July 02, 2013, 11:37:27 AM

Watch out for the effects of that leak on the belly pan! Mine was intact when I got mine, but that leak killed it. I still have it in two pieces, to be repaired at a later date. I wonder if when I repaint it, if I paint it with a white brake caliper paint, if it would resist the corrosive effects of the brake fluid on the plastic underneath? It should, right? It would just be a question of getting the color to match. I guess I could get an automotive paint color matched then to the caliper paint color, actually, since I'll likely do the whole bike at that point.

Caliper paint would be just fine with respect to resisting the effects of brake fluid. If you need to have your
belly pan welded back together let me know. (I have the equipment to do it right. )

Quote from: fintip on July 02, 2013, 11:37:27 AM

Cannot believe your luck with bolts. Something really sounds fishy. Didn't you lock-tite them all the first time? Are you using your torque wrench right? I'm just flabbergasted, I've never heard of anything like this.

Well, the problem is a little more insidious than that. Yes I torqued all of the bolts to spec. Yes they had something
on them when they went in. But it wasn't thread locker. I had it in my nugget that it would be good to use anti-seize
on all of the bolts with them being steel going into aluminum. In restrospect this probably wasn't the best idea.
On the bright side, only two of the case bolts have the stuff on them. (I put it on because they were going in "funny")

This is probably why the sucker is kicking out the fasteners.
(Everything is going back in with threadlocker. Just like the cam chain tensioner did)

Quote from: fintip on July 02, 2013, 11:37:27 AM

Oh, by the way--why are you waiting to use synthetic? You don't believe that old wives tale about naturally derived oils being required for break-in, do you?

I'd be interested in hearing more about why this is an "Old Wives tale"  I was under the impression that if you used
synthetic for break in you would not get the polishing action needed to allow the rings to seal properly. (Some wear
being good wear and what not.) I have to admit, I can definitely say that I could tell a marked difference in the
behavior in the engine day to day as it "broke in" It started getting progressively easier to start. Cylinder temperatures
started coming down. The idle needed to be adjusted several times as the internal friction in the engine dropped.
The very character of the engine has become more relaxed.

Right now the engine is sitting at 1200 miles on it and I have no oil in the case.  I have finally started to see a lessening
of the metal particles on the drain plug magnet and the idle is stable.

Please make an argument for what kind of oil I should fill her back up with.

Quote from: fintip on July 02, 2013, 11:37:27 AM

Oh, by the way--why are you waiting to use synthetic? You don't believe that old wives tale about naturally derived oils being required for break-in, do you?

Kyle, why is this an old wives tale?

Quote from: ribbert on July 02, 2013, 07:41:11 PM

Quote from: fintip on July 02, 2013, 11:37:27 AM

Oh, by the way--why are you waiting to use synthetic? You don't believe that old wives tale about naturally derived oils being required for break-in, do you?

Kyle, why is this an old wives tale?

my guess would be the fact that both synthetic and "natural" oil both do the same thing, the sole difference is synthetic doesn't break down as fast which makes it lubricate a bit better. A lot of oils that are "synthetic" are derived from "natural" oil but the molecules are mated with additives that help prevent wear enough to put them in the same class as a synthetic. idk, I've never even heard this wives tale. I would think no matter what you want the least amount of friction as possible. the wives tale I have always heard is a tight engine is a good engine.

No oil talk to ruin what's otherwise a reasonably interesting thread.

Well, I only have one comment's worth of response to give anyways, and so I'll just share my source:

http://fjowners.wikidot.com/oil#toc11 (http://fjowners.wikidot.com/oil#toc11)

That's what I've read on the topic, and it follows from everything else I've read. If there's any reasonable support for that theory that I have not heard of, I'd love to hear it, but I by no means intend to start some kind of dogmatic discussion.

QuoteI'd be interested in hearing more about why this is an "Old Wives tale"  I was under the impression that if you used
synthetic for break in you would not get the polishing action needed to allow the rings to seal properly. (Some wear
being good wear and what not.) I have to admit, I can definitely say that I could tell a marked difference in the
behavior in the engine day to day as it "broke in" It started getting progressively easier to start. Cylinder temperatures
started coming down. The idle needed to be adjusted several times as the internal friction in the engine dropped.
The very character of the engine has become more relaxed.

Some wear being good wear? On a brand new engine that is tighter than its machining tolerances allow it to stay, it will settle down and loosen up, wear itself in. That is what break-in is. If we could avoid that, I think one would want to (in theory) (the engine would probably need to be made/rebuilt in response to that if it were possible, but it's not, so it's all theoretical; but the engine will continue to get 'more relaxed' until the day it runs out of compression). But as what I pointed to says, it is simply untrue that synthetics are 'more slippery' than conventional oils. That's not a benefit of synthetic oil. Synthetic oil just degrades slower, basically, because it requires less additives. So I don't know why one would think 'it won't get the good wear if I use synthetics' would be the belief that it is slipperier.

But then I have to ask: good wear? I mean, necessary wear, a part of the process wear, but I don't know about the term 'good wear'. But I guess that's a separate question. Good wear or not, there's no reason I know of that synthetic oil should change how it wears... It will just change the rate at which the oil goes bad.

I could understand, though, an argument for using cheaper oils for the break-in, since you don't use the oil long enough to make the oil go bad and see the difference between the two. That'd be about all I could imagine for honest justification, though.

Quote from: HARTLESS on July 01, 2013, 07:00:35 PM
you know, watching this thread (ive read the whole damn thing) is like watching an action drama on tv. you never know whats gonna happen next!

You know. The other thing that I just realized is, it would take a staggering amount of time to actually read this thread from start to... uhm... well this point is staggering.  I tip my hat to you.

Quote from: andyb on July 03, 2013, 09:15:35 AM
No oil talk to ruin what's otherwise a reasonably interesting thread.

Yeah, and here I was all ready to put the issue to bed. (After the question was raised I spent a good chunck
of time thinking critically about the issue and came to a conclusion that I can stand behind) Good points have
been raised here and in other "Oil" threads, but it boils down to the fact that during break in there is a window
of opportunity where wear is a required thing to allow the rings to seal properly. For me the single greatest
selling point of synthetics is their ability to almost arrest wear. That's something I want to take advantage of
once everything is all smoothed out and sealed up inside. (I'll leave the hows and whys for a different thread)

Anyway, this has been a little more than just an oil change and a valve lash adjustment. Now that I have a
fair amount of saddle time there are some things that I would like to address. But a word of caution to those
that want to remove their fairings.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13727164872090_zpsdae6a642.jpg)

On the 90 (and I'm guessing the 87-90 model years) there is no EASY WAY to just remove the main fairing from
the support frame with the fairing support frame still attached to the bike. DO NOT try what I did and pull every
single screw out of the thing trying to separate it from the support frame. (Maybe the 91+ fairing is different,
but this doesn't work for the 90)  What you end up with is a very mobile fairing plastic that is still attached by
the blind nuts holding the headlight in place. Of course if you don't know this you end up with this.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13727878145186_zps0d87f321.jpg)


I can fix it, but it was really a "D'oh!" moment.
The main take away here is, IT IS MUCH EASIER TO REMOVE THE FOUR BOLTS, ONE CONNECTOR and SPEEDO
CALBE than it is to pull the whole support frame than the couple dozed screws. (And break something) Besides,
it's easy to strip the frame out of the faring once it's off the bike. I don't know why people made such a point
of leaving the support frame attached to the bike when taking the fairing off. (I'd like to know what it is about
the 91+ bikes that makes that action so much more desirable)

I really had her stripped down so I could use the shim kit and get the valve lash adjusted. (I set her up really
loose so that I wouldn't have issues with the valves getting really tight during the break in)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13727164818035_zps397bf743.jpg)


It turns out that I was actually a little over zealous on the adjusting of the valves on the loose end to start
with. Well maybe not when you look at number 4. It sure gets messy on the exhaust end when one of the
shims snaps down in the bucket and splashes oil ALL over everything.  (I wouldn't have figured that such a
little shim could displace so much oil)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13728625860357_zpsac0fd0eb.jpg)


While I was turning the engine back and forth I took a look at the main seal to see if it was leaking too.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13727878164029_zpsfc369b12.jpg)

Looks good so far....


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13727878150757_zps657885e8.jpg)


And yes, quite possible the only seal on the engine that isn't leaking...


The next thing is taking my rough idea for making some mods to the electrical system and turning them into reality.
 


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13727164900982_zpsb4cfb52d.jpg)



I know it's basically diner napkin stuff, but that's how I do things. It never ends up looking like the original
idea, but it works.

Well, sometimes it looks like the original idea. Like this RAM ball mount on the stem bolt. Funny thing was I hit
it with a punch to give myself an appropriately sized divot to make sure the drill bit didn't walk. Well I hit it way
to hard, or the metal was a lot softer than I expected and pounded it in pretty good. Flipping it over and hitting
it from the other side with the punch actually did a surprisingly good job of flattening it back out.
(That and you have to love the ductility of steel)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13727878139565_zps6aa83dca.jpg)

So after drilling it out to 1/4" I get this. And a nice place to mount my GPS.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13727878121472_zps2368014e.jpg)


That's all for now. I'll tackle the wiring nightmare later....

Quote from: skymasteres on July 03, 2013, 10:30:38 AM

On the 90 (and I'm guessing the 87-90 model years) there is no EASY WAY to just remove the main fairing from
the support frame with the fairing support frame still attached to the bike. DO NOT try what I did and pull every
single screw out of the thing trying to separate it from the support frame. (Maybe the 91+ fairing is different,
but this doesn't work for the 90)  What you end up with is a very mobile fairing plastic that is still attached by
the blind nuts holding the headlight in place. Of course if you don't know this you end up with this.

The reason so many take it off the hard way is because the manual describes it so and this method is repeatedly passed of from existing to new members everytime someone asks.
I took mine off like that the first time but once all was revealed it became obvious the manual instructions were making hard work of it.
My question is, why remove the fairing at all to do the valves?

Noel

Quote from: fintip on July 03, 2013, 09:54:23 AM
Some wear being good wear? On a brand new engine that is tighter than its machining tolerances allow it to stay, it will settle down and loosen up, wear itself in. That is what break-in is. If we could avoid that, I think one would want to (in theory) (the engine would probably need to be made/rebuilt in response to that if it were possible, but it's not, so it's all theoretical; but the engine will continue to get 'more relaxed' until the day it runs out of compression). But as what I pointed to says, it is simply untrue that synthetics are 'more slippery' than conventional oils. That's not a benefit of synthetic oil. Synthetic oil just degrades slower, basically, because it requires less additives. So I don't know why one would think 'it won't get the good wear if I use synthetics' would be the belief that it is slipperier.

But then I have to ask: good wear? I mean, necessary wear, a part of the process wear, but I don't know about the term 'good wear'. But I guess that's a separate question. Good wear or not, there's no reason I know of that synthetic oil should change how it wears... It will just change the rate at which the oil goes bad.

I could understand, though, an argument for using cheaper oils for the break-in, since you don't use the oil long enough to make the oil go bad and see the difference between the two. That'd be about all I could imagine for honest justification, though.

I have no idea what a lot of this means...   :pardon:

But you definitely DO want break-in wear to occur, otherwise the rings would never seal properly.

'Slippery' is a tricky term when it comes to oil.   http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2950936 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2950936)

Amsoil even offers a specific break-in oil: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2881.pdf (http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2881.pdf)

Ribbert said, "it became obvious the manual instructions were making hard work of it.
My question is, why remove the fairing at all to do the valves?"

The manual description of how to remove the fairing seemed to be such hard work, that I have never removed mine.
I bought it in '97 with 35K kms and it now has over 135K kms.  I've replaced brake lines, added heated grips, headlight relay, rebuilt forks, replaced steering head bearings, replaced headlight globes, and replaced the horn with a different unit that required a new mount bracket, and I have mirrors with turn indicators and have had driving lights, and do have LED daytime running lights.  All of that was done with the main fairing in place.

Now that Noel (thanks mate) has posted pics of the 4 bolts needed to remove the fairing and frame, I will pull it if only to figure out why my headlight adjusters don't work properly when I get a spare round toit.

Almost everything you might need to do in the fairing is possible without removing it.

Arnie

Quote from: ribbert on July 03, 2013, 10:45:21 AM

My question is, why remove the fairing at all to do the valves?

Noel

There is NO reason to completely remove the fairing to do work on valves. But, since I am a strong believer in
minimizing down time and planning maintenance, I took it off so that I could put a fuse panel and a bunch of
relays up in there. Of course while I had it off I found several cracks on mounting tabs, brackets and the like.
So I'll be doing some more plastic welding to put it all back together. I've been getting REALLY lucky lately with
finding things before they go south badly. I need to get ahead of the curve so I don't have something
catastrophic happen. (Like having the center stand come off and jam in the wheel...)

SKIP BELOW IF YOU WANT TO AVOID LOOOOONG BOORING DISCUSSIONS ABOUT ENGINE BREAK IN AND OIL THEORY

Quote from: fintip on July 03, 2013, 09:54:23 AM
Some wear being good wear?

I would have thought that this was obvious.

Quote from: fintip on July 03, 2013, 09:54:23 AM
On a brand new engine that is tighter than its machining tolerances allow it to stay, it will settle down and loosen up, wear itself in. That is what break-in is.

You just answered your own question.

Quote from: fintip on July 03, 2013, 09:54:23 AM
If we could avoid that, I think one would want to (in theory) (the engine would probably need to be made/rebuilt in response to that if it were possible, but it's not, so it's all theoretical; but the engine will continue to get 'more relaxed' until the day it runs out of compression).

This is only true to a point. There are MANY factors that determine what the tolerances are inside an internal
combustion engine. As precise as you are able to be while building it, once the engine warms up everything
changes and if you didn't adjust for that you're sunk. Fortunately you don't have to understand all of the physics
involved to successfully rebuild an engine. I mean, it's not like the engine won't run if you dork up a tolerance
slightly here or there. It's actually amazing how badly an engine can be out of "tolerance" and still run.

You need to think about what surfaces are wearing during break in.

You have the rings and cylinder walls that are made out of the same material and make actual metal to metal
contact. There is some oil there, but it is not adequate for the rings to ride on an oil film like the journal bearings
that the crankshaft rides on. In an ideal world the crankshaft will never touch the bearings while the engine is
running. The rings aren't the only areas where metal to metal contact can happen, but they are the most critical
for engine break in. 

Imagine that the cylinder walls are a file made out of cast iron, this is what the crosshatching from the honing
creates, and that the rings are passing over this surface as the engine is running. The pressure created from
combustion forces the rings tightly against the cylinder wall and they are "filed" as they travel up and down.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/NLP-Combustion-Engine-Diagram_zps5ff4dbed.jpg)

But, the caveat here is that since the cylinder walls are the same material, the "file" wears as well and the peaks
are rounded off. As this whole process is happening you have oil from the crankcase being splashed on the cylinder
walls filling the voids in the crosshatching. But, because of the size of the voids initially, the area that is in contact
with the rings providing a seal is too small to stop combustion gasses from passing by the rings and down the
cylinder walls. The CRITICAL time in "break in" is this phase where the cylinder wall and the rings wear together to
the point where there is "just enough" space for oil to sit in the cylinder wall to provide lubrication while there is
enough contact area with the rings to provide a good seal. The challenges to this are the heat generated while this
metal on metal contact is happening. From my experience here the amount of heat the engine generated in those
short break in runs was phenomenal.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/breakin_zpsa29a4f4e.gif)


The reason the time issue comes into play is the oil that is left on the cylinder walls during the break in. If it collects
in the groves in the cylinder walls and burns in place it effectively eliminates the place for the oil to sit and lubricate.
You end up with a non-lubricating insulator that has poor friction characteristics. Sure the engine will still run, but it
will run hotter and loose more power to friction than it would have otherwise.
(Remember frictional losses go up roughly by the square of RPM)

Quote from: fintip on July 03, 2013, 09:54:23 AM
But as what I pointed to says, it is simply untrue that synthetics are 'more slippery' than conventional oils. That's not a benefit of synthetic oil. Synthetic oil just degrades slower, basically, because it requires less additives. So I don't know why one would think 'it won't get the good wear if I use synthetics' would be the belief that it is slipperier.

The main difference between FULL synthetic and conventional is the base stock they are made from. (I'm not going to talk
about blends because they only have to be 5% pure synthetic to be labeled that way) Synthetic base stocks are uniform
in molecular weight. Conventional are an average of weights. So, with 10w-30, you have a pour weight of 10 and an
additives package assisting the operating temp weight of 30.  In the conventional you have a multi-viscosity base that is
not all uniformly 10w. Some of it is 0w, 5w, 15w, 20w or any number of different weights. It's an average of 10w though.
With the synthesized base stock you have a consistent 10w oil.

This doesn't seem significant until you start to heat the oil and look at their properties as the temperature increases.
In conventional oil this behavior depends on how much of the oil is of what weight. With the synthetic there is a more
predictable change in viscosity with respect temperature increase. Because of this the quantities of long chain synthetic
polymers required in the additives package for synthetic oil is greatly reduced. This is the single greatest reason for the
increased oil change intervals recommended for synthetic oils. Because the oil is composed of fewer additives (5-15%
verse 25-40% for conventional) the "oil"  lasts longer. It's not the oil that breaks down, but the additives package that
breaks down because of all of the shearing that happens inside the engine. All those long chain polymers get cut shorter
and shorter reducing their ability to hold the viscosity where it needs to be. When the viscosity breaks down your film
thicknesses drop and you start having contact where you shouldn't and friction goes up. It's not so much that synthetic
is "slipperier", it's that it is more stable with respect to temperature and has a smaller percentage by volume of additives.
Therefore it can do what it's supposed to do better...

Quote from: fintip on July 03, 2013, 09:54:23 AM

Good wear or not, there's no reason I know of that synthetic oil should change how it wears... It will just change the rate at which the oil goes bad.

Definitely right on the how it wears, just off on the rate of wear.  Spot on with how the oil goes bad though. 
(Holy crap. I can go on for days with this stuff. There are SOOO many reasons to run synthetic vs. conventional it's not even funny.
It's just the time with respect to seating the rings that makes it a less than desirable choice for first run.)

END REDICULOUSLY LONG BREAK IN/OIL RANT

Quote from: Arnie on July 03, 2013, 11:31:42 AM
I've replaced brake lines, added heated grips, headlight relay, rebuilt forks, replaced steering head bearings, replaced headlight globes, and replaced the horn with a different unit that required a new mount bracket, and I have mirrors with turn indicators and have had driving lights, and do have LED daytime running lights.  All of that was done with the main fairing in place.
Almost everything you might need to do in the fairing is possible without removing it.
Arnie

Arnie, thanks for the comment. I'm sure you're right. But I'll give you guys a teaser as to why the fairing had to be removed from the frame.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13727164776990_zps0268348a.jpg)

Not clear enough?


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13727164809644_zps21fd7808.jpg)

I know it doesn't look like much but I am trying to mount an fuse panel in the fairing frame to run all of the relays I'm putting up there.

Here's a view from the inside.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13727164843697_zps5b6210e5.jpg)


It's a work in progress. But I'm really tired of the dim headlights. I want to be able to see this difference...


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/headlight_relay_before_after_zps71caad76.jpg)

Pulled shamelessly from Charlie-brm's post.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=9618.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=9618.0)

quote: "(Holy crap. I can go on for days with this stuff. There are SOOO many reasons to run synthetic vs. conventional it's not even funny":unquote

Please do go on...I`m enjoying the clarity, but more importantly the civility of the contribution...I hadn`t thought about backpressure on rings being forced outwards, (never googled it either) I thought it was mainly spring pressure (durrh). Also interested in what really happens with the rocking motion of the piston. I`m assuming that indirectly contributes to the the oval shape of the barrels sometimes, so guessing pre ignition kinda at least doubles it...When you google pinging (or pinking) regarding pre ignition you get something like this http://www.peugeotlogic.com/info/info1.htm.. (http://www.peugeotlogic.com/info/info1.htm..) but I keep thinking that rocking motion plays a role..but apparently not...I digress...enjoyed your post.  (popcorn)

Quote from: The General on July 03, 2013, 02:17:48 PM
Also interested in what really happens with the rocking motion of the piston. I`m assuming that indirectly contributes to the the oval shape of the barrels sometimes, so guessing pre ignition kinda at least doubles it...When you google pinging (or pinking) regarding pre ignition you get something like this http://www.peugeotlogic.com/info/info1.htm.. (http://www.peugeotlogic.com/info/info1.htm..) but I keep thinking that rocking motion plays a role..but apparently not...I digress...enjoyed your post.  (popcorn)

You know the oval tendency that cylinders tend to develop is mainly a factor of the geometry of the
reciprocating assembly. As it so happens the pre-ignition image from your link helps to demonstrate the
cause of the oval shape quite nicely. Look at the angle that the connecting rod is at. (I know it's
extreem here but it's a good image for concept.)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/pinging2_zpsc637889d.jpg)


If you look at the forces in play it's actually really simple to understand why cylinders develop this
characteristic oval shape.  This is where discussion of connecting rod length vs. stroke usually begin and
what they are talking about when you hear the term "connecting rod ratio" There are many arguments to
be made of both sides of the issue, but the point is moot unless you actually intend to change it. 

/*In the beginning stages, more like concept, of this build I ran down the idea of offset grinding the
crankshaft while I was  getting it lightened and balanced. The original plan was to give the engine an
additional 5mm of stroke and to use a slightly shorter connecting rod. (I don't have my figures handy but
I think I was shooting for something in the 1500cc range on an 81mm bore. I ended up with the stock
stroke and an 82mm bore for 1346cc) */

I ended up not going this route after learning that with the "missing" bearing these cranks are more susceptible
to damage from secondary vibrations. In other words, in all of my research, I came across six different people
that had offset ground the FJ1200 crankshaft to give between 4 and 7mm of additional stroke that had
crankshafts crack at that point. The impression I got after talking to a couple of them what that it wasn't the
load that was killing the crank, but the harmonics created by undamped vibrations.

Getting back to ovals, that's also why in modern pistons the skirts are so abbreviated on the sides perpendicular
to the piston pins. There are hadly any thrust loads on the sides so there is no reason to incur the multiple
penalties of having the material there. (Mass and friction mostly)

But I drigress. That's why cylinders become ovals....

How about just a quick list of why I think synthetic oil is better than conventional.  

1.  Uniform base stock. It maintains viscosity as temperature increases much better than conventional.
The big difference is as you heat up conventional oil its viscosity tends to plummet, verses synthetic where it
is so much more stable it's sometimes referred to as non-Newtonian oil.

2. Lower additives percentage by volume. Since there are fewer additives required to modify viscosity there
is more oil performing actual lubrication. Also there are fewer additives to get chopped up by the engine and
thus the "oil" lasts longer. (It's really the additives package that lasts longer)

3. Oxidation resistance. Synthetic oil is more resistant to oxidation thanks to its uniform base stock. With
conventional oil you end up with much lighter oil molecules in the mix that are more volatile and oxidize turning
into nasty byproducts that sludge up engines and leave acids in the oil.

4. No sludge. Kind of touched on above, but because they are more resistant to reacting with combustion gas
and creating nasty byproducts there is less crud trapped in the bottom end of the engine. The cleaner engine
maintains better tolerances and allows the oil to better do its job.

5. Higher temperature tolerance. Synthetic oils tend to maintain their oil films at much higher temperatures
than similarly graded conventional stocks. This is a factor that also aids its oxidation resistance. The main
thing allowing for higher film strength is the uniform nature of the base stock and the lower additives quantity.
More oil is doing what oil should. (I know this property alone saved a V-8 of mine)

You know, when I asked to have the "old wives tale" explained to me, I was actually open to having my mind
blown with some sort of information or fact that I didn't know. I mean, sometimes you find something out that
flies so contrary to what you "know" that's really so exciting.... it blows your mind.   People have a tendency
to get so caught up in the dogma and tradition of things that they can't be open to what is, and what isn't.
I don't have a horse in the Synthetic vs. Conventional race. I just want to do what's best for the longevity
and performance of this engine...

Speaking of blowing minds...

Copper is non-magnetic right? And steel, or metals with iron in them are affected by magnets. But conventional
wisdom tells you that if you use a magnet on a piece of steel there will be an attractive force. Likewise there
will be no attractive force if you use the same magnet on a piece of aluminum or copper. Now take a copper
tube and drop a nut through it. The nut falls with an acceleration of gravity. But when you take the same
copper tube and drop a magnet though it....

http://youtu.be/G7ysnXH53Wo (http://youtu.be/G7ysnXH53Wo)

BLEW MY MIND

Okay, I'll admit, I was the dummy going "well of course it's going to drop straight through. Copper's not magnetic.....huh?"   
I mean, I understand all of the principles that dictate why this happens, but I was so caught up in the copper is not
magnetic that I ignored what all of the principles I knew that, if applied correctly, would have allowed me to anticipate
what the magnet actually did...

I was so impressed that I went home that day and took a 1/4" copper tube and dropped a 3/16" neodynium magnet through it...
It took 30 seconds for the magnet to pass through the 24" tube... WOW.  :good2:

Quote from: Arnie on July 03, 2013, 11:31:42 AM

Almost everything you might need to do in the fairing is possible without removing it.

Arnie

Including removing and refitting the motor.

Quote from: skymasteres link=topic=7691.msg92002#msg92002 date=1372865438

I really had her stripped down so I could use the shim kit and get the valve lash adjusted.

/quote]

To be fair to Arnie and myself, who both queried why you would remove the fairing to do the valves, you did say this.

Is that fuse panel in a location where you need to remove the fairing to access it Michael? If so, you may want to choose another location.

Derek

Great thread guys, apologies if I'm outta line, but the bit about removing the fairing got me hooked. The first time I wanted to remove the fairing, I didn't check the manual, just looked around and undid the 4 bolts (after removing the side scoops), easy. Have done this 3 times now as I mod/fix things. All good.
Interesting all the stuff about oils, gonna stick with dino oil for the time being  (popcorn)

Okay, what to do with a four day weekend and time alone in the cave of wonders? Oh yeah, spent it modding the FJ. 

I spite of how much I didn't want to I dove back in under the valve cover to fix the number 4 exhaust clearance.
(I can't believe that I left one at 0.015 That's so unnecessary) Although I can't really complain, it's a lot easier than doing it on a V-4.

Quote from: ribbert on July 04, 2013, 05:33:37 AM

Quote from: skymasteres on July 03, 2013, 10:30:38 AM

I really had her stripped down so I could use the shim kit and get the valve lash adjusted.

To be fair to Arnie and myself, who both queried why you would remove the fairing to do the valves, you did say this.

Yeah, you're right. My apologies. It's the wiring I was doing to get brighter headlights and what not.

Quote from: Derek Young on July 04, 2013, 08:58:34 AM
Is that fuse panel in a location where you need to remove the fairing to access it Michael? If so, you may want to choose another location.

Derek

Derek, I appreciate the concern. As it stands I thought LONG and HARD about where the best place to put the
auxiliary fuse panel.  The biggest factor was how to optimize it for the bike. I wanted ease of access, short wire
runs, and a minimal number of connections. What I ended up with was a 40 hour long mod process because I
had to do some re-thinking on the fly, and didn't have it fully understood. (I was terribly surprised by the "hot"
horn issue)

The cool thing is, in putting the fuse panel where I have it, it's even easier to access than it would have been under
the seat. That and I can just about eliminate the voltage drop by running two 8ga wires from the battery up to the
panel. Then everything else is just a short hop to get the relay it's powering. It also pretty much total occupies ALL
of the free space inside the right hand side of the fairing. It leaves just enough clearance to get a socket on the
headlight bolt and stays out of the way of the forks.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMG_2063Small_zps29fada59.jpg)


Those Adel clamps work REALLY well as well. I am very pleased with the way they hold the panel and relays in place.

With the location of the fuse panel set I needed to come up with a spot to put the rest of the relays. (Horn, ignition,
and accessory) Since I have removed my "Republik of Kalifornia" emissions equipment I have a little "extra" space
where it used to reside. Then it dawned on me, that with the built in mounting tab on the relays, I had the perfect
place to mount them.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMAG0411_zpse24b9fb0.jpg)

I have taps off of the park and run positions of the ignition switch, blue and brown respectively, as well as taps supplying
power to the coils. This way I don't have to cut anything and can return it to stock very easily.  The relays remain secured
and out of the way while solving my other problem of having a good ground for everything on the body side of the system.
(I already have a grounding block on the fairing support frame) There are some interesting issues that have come up with
the way the coils interact if I leave the power wires hooked up so for the moment they are left disconnected. (Once I fully
chart the new circuit and understand what is going on I may try fixing it with some diodes)

Quote from: Dazza57 on July 05, 2013, 05:01:30 AM
Great thread guys, apologies if I'm outta line, but the bit about removing the fairing got me hooked. The first time I wanted
to remove the fairing, I didn't check the manual, just looked around and undid the 4 bolts (after removing the side scoops),
easy. Have done this 3 times now as I mod/fix things. All good.
Interesting all the stuff about oils, gonna stick with dino oil for the time being  (popcorn)

You know that's a perfectly valid choice. Conventional oil has made things go round since before I was around. If you
change it on a more intensive schedule than the synthetic you really aren't loosing anything other than the oxidation and
temperature extreme resistance.  Heck, it's been well documented that if you've been running an engine long term on
conventional that switching over to synthetic can cause a myriad of problems...

Okay I'm back. (Sometimes work grabs you by the B*lls and says no to free time)
As I'm working on these mods I'm also doing routine maintenance. Stuff like lubing the chain. Normally lubricating
and checking your chain adjustment is a routine thing. But something just felt slightly off when I was inspecting it.
I didn't catch it at first, but after a more thurogh inspection I discovered this.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13732669529072_zps35136ba2.jpg)

No I supposed I could launch into the whole, one of these things is not like the other, but I was just floored. There
was the master link plate just sitting there with nothing holding it in place. That link could have just come undone at
any time. (It really gives me the willies just thinking about how bad it would have been if it at come off in 5th gear
at 8300rpm.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13732669527471_zps148a6748.jpg)

This is what it is supposed to look like. I think next time around I am going with a riveted chain. (I have definitely been
getting really lucky with all of the stuff falling off or breaking that it hasn't been worse.)

I'm telling you, it feels like the more I work on this fairing the more I find broken on it. These are the spots on the main
fairing that I had to go after to fix the broken stuff.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/IMG_2060_zps4153a6fb.jpg)


The headlight bracket was a fantastic pain in the rear as usual and I ended up using ice cubes to cool down that really thin
plastic and speed the repair along.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Fairing/IMG_2062Small_zpscfa6069a.jpg)



Since I spent so much time with the thinker in overdrive "Whinnie the Poo" style I figured once I did have it figured out
I'd really wire it up right. Which of course involved the very exacting process of getting all of the wire lengths right and
bundling them all together. This is the back side of my "instrument" panel. It just holds the oil temperature gauge, my
USB ports, and the little auxiliary switch that allows me to activate the USB charger without the key in place.
(As it stands it currently back feeds into the temp gauge, but it's on the list of things to fix)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMAG0410_zpse58786c9.jpg)

Getting all of the runs right meant that I couldn't remount the fairing support with the fairing attached. Here is the aux
panel with the wires hooked up. (Yeah I know I went a little overboard with the wire gauges.)  You can see the
grounding block for the fairing support frame in this shot as well. (The one on the ignition module bolt was removed
because the coil mount worked out so well.)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMAG0414_zps390b834d.jpg)


Back to the main frame with the rest of the relays and you see that I have everything tied up nice and neat so that it
should stay out and secure. (Working with guys that put instrumentation into fighter jets helps sometimes)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMAG0413_zps713dca53.jpg)


When FJMonkey came over last Friday for some "Manshed" time he gave me this perfectly marvelous idea to wrap the
headlight adjuster in silicone take after filling it with grease. Well my headlight adjuster was broken on both ends so the
repair was a little more involved. I took a 1/4" universal joint and punched out the pins. With that done I had to grind
down the pivot block slightly to fit into the "Monkey Made" square drive end. 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMG_2070Small_zps312acecb.jpg)

The other bit of frustration came from trying to solder the male end of the 1/4" adapter to the adjuster shaft. It ended
up failing the first time I assembled it so I ended up brazing it with brass.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMG_2069Small_zpsf3fcbfc7.jpg)

This was the finished product all wrapped up and ready to be put back in.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMG_2071Small_zpsedc13b04.jpg)

With all of the plastic welding complete and my fairing restored, more or less, to its fully serviceable condition it was time
to re-mount the support frame.  Here you can see all of the new wiring and parts that are now part of the fairing electrical. 
(And yes that is a ceramic plug for the 90/130w bulb that's in there)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMG_2074Small_zps45f64705.jpg)

Once it's mounted to the bike the two power feeds and one ground are hooked up completing the circuits.
(The ground screw and breakers are accessible once you turn the forks full lock to the left.) 

The electrical that remains on the bike with the fairing off is just for the horn, accessory, and ignition relays.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMG_2076Small_zps1bd913d8.jpg)



Here I have the fairing mounted to the frame with everything hooked up. I had to unhook the power wires for the ignition
coils because the headlights would stay on when the key was turned on. (again, back feeding though the circuit and keeping
the relays energized) 


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMG_2078Small_zpsbb1364fe.jpg)

Here is a shot of the aux panel from underneath showing another way to get to it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/IMG_2083Small_zpsaf40a46d.jpg)

Nice, neat, tidy electricals.
I might have to actually remove my fairing to clean up my act.

Arnie

Wrap a piece of safety wire around your clip link.  It makes for a very easy thing to see on visual inspection.

If you have the option, a gold/chrome/colored master link is very easy to spot if the rest of the chain is a different finish, as well.

 You need to use more zip ties. :biggrin:

Bloody nice work mate, glad you found that chain issue, they damage enough going slow  :cray:  ,, kind of glad I have a fibrerglass fairing

Quote from: andyb on July 11, 2013, 08:17:30 AM
Wrap a piece of safety wire around your clip link.  It makes for a very easy thing to see on visual inspection.

If you have the option, a gold/chrome/colored master link is very easy to spot if the rest of the chain is a different finish, as well.

Yep... A good friend has an old Husky, every time he'd back it up, the clip would get pushed off. He finally did the safety wire trick and it never happened again.....

Quote from: andyb on July 11, 2013, 08:17:30 AM
Wrap a piece of safety wire around your clip link.  It makes for a very easy thing to see on visual inspection.

If you have the option, a gold/chrome/colored master link is very easy to spot if the rest of the chain is a different finish, as well.

Quote from: RichBaker on July 11, 2013, 07:54:40 PM
Yep... A good friend has an old Husky, every time he'd back it up, the clip would get pushed off. He finally did the safety wire trick and it never happened again.....

You know FJMonkey had the same comment as well. I'm going to have to get myself some safety wire.
(Sure beats the alternative)

Quote from: JMR on July 11, 2013, 01:20:34 PM
You need to use more zip ties. :biggrin:

You know, I normally don't use that many zip ties. But, if you look at the way instrumentation harnesses are
all trussed up... then yeah, I didn't use nearly enough.   :sarcastic:

Actually, all kidding aside, I used silicone insulated wire. This stuff is commonly referred to as "Noodle Wire"
because of its flexibility. The positive with this is it has an extremely high current capacity for it's size. The
down side is it doesn't hold its position at all without help. But, when you tie it together in bundles it starts
behaving wonderfully and you can put it exactly where you want it. It also has excellent fatigue characteristics
when bundled this way, so even after extended periods of being bent and straightened it doesn't break.

On a side note. These are a really REALLY BAD on a less than quarter turn throttle. (A few scary moments of
getting on the throttle when moving it around in the yard and it came right off)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13732669527000_zpsa303f092.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/skymasteres/media/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13732669527000_zpsa303f092.jpg.html)

+1 on the silicone coated wire, I use it on rc stuff, , I have one of those throttle  control thingo's , never had it come off, you must have different handgrips , as the need friction to stay secure

Quote from: fj11.5 on July 12, 2013, 06:27:16 PM
+1 on the silicone coated wire, I use it on rc stuff, , I have one of those throttle  control thingo's , never had it come off, you must have different handgrips , as the need friction to stay secure

Silicone insulated. Although on the jets they sometimes use Pam and spray the wires down so they can fish then through tight spaces.   And I think you misunderstood.  The crampbuster didn't "fall off" I removed it with extreme predgedigice because I almost dumped the bike in the front yard. (I was on the clutch quick enough to avoid disaster)



Okay, so now I have a real problem that I'm trying to get to the bottom of. After pulling the exhaust off and properly torquing all of the oil pan bolts. I don't think I'm leaking oil from engine case anymore, but I'm smoking more now.

I thought I was using more oil because I would get the oil light coming on under heavy acceleration.  But it would also flicker up at 5000 rpm plus in sustained cruising.  Another thing that's bothering me is I have about 6 quarts of oil in the crankcase right now. When it's been sitting on the center stand overnight the oil level is completely above the sight window in the clutch cover. Once I start the engine the oil level drops to below the bottom of the sight window after about two minutes. 

There is also a sort of sharp sounding clackclackclack (really fast repetition) that appears to be coming from number four under the valve cover when I rev from idle to 6k.

The last symptom is that has happened on my last few rides is that the clutch starts to slip at full throttle in top gear at about 8500 rpm. I of course backed off, and I was getting the flickering oil light.  When I got home I checked the oil and it was low, until I shut the motor off and it started to drain back into the case. The oil fill cap was so hot it was just about burning my fingers when I took it off. And there was smoke comming out of the fill port for a while. (I think the clutch was probably REALLY HOT) The oil drain back issue has me really concerned.  That and the new noise.

I don't know what's going on,  but I want to  find out before I ride it again.

The dropping of the oil level when the engine is running is standard. The low oil level upon immediate shutdown is also standard. Your instinct is correct, the oil needs time to drain back to the crankcase before you get a correct reading. Check your oil in the morning with a cold engine.
Use the correct amount of oil as specified in the manual, unless you have a spin on filter conversion which will hold just a bit more oil (depending on the filter) Overfilling the crankcase with oil causes all kinds of problems along with loss of power.
I can't say why you are using so much oil...a compression test would be a start....perhaps it's just the symptom of normal break in? Dunno.

I know on my 1350, it appears that I had a fuel washdown issue with #1 and #3 causing a lack of critical cylinder wall lubrication which in turn, caused the new unseated rings to gouge the cylinder wall....the oil consumption never got better. I knew something bad had happened at my first oil change when I saw large slivers of steel in my oil.
Randy is fixing it as we speak.

Sigh.....isn't this fun?

Sorry mate, I missread it , noticed that when I fitted my own, very touchy throttle with it fited

Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 13, 2013, 04:39:22 PM
The dropping of the oil level when the engine is running is standard. The low oil level upon immediate shutdown is also standard. Your instinct is correct, the oil needs time to drain back to the crankcase before you get a correct reading. Check your oil in the morning with a cold engine.
Use the correct amount of oil as specified in the manual, unless you have a spin on filter conversion which will hold just a bit more oil (depending on the filter) Overfilling the crankcase with oil causes all kinds of problems along with loss of power.
I can't say why you are using so much oil...a compression test would be a start....perhaps it's just the symptom of normal break in? Dunno.

I know on my 1350, it appears that I had a fuel washdown issue with #1 and #3 causing a lack of critical cylinder wall lubrication which in turn, caused the new unseated rings to gouge the cylinder wall....the oil consumption never got better. I knew something bad had happened at my first oil change when I saw large slivers of steel in my oil.
Randy is fixing it as we speak.

Sigh.....isn't this fun?

What caused the washdown Pat? Overly rich mixture, bad float needles etc? Were you using the stock 36 carbs?

Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 13, 2013, 04:39:22 PM
I can't say why you are using so much oil...a compression test would be a start....perhaps it's just the symptom of normal break in? Dunno.

I know on my 1350, it appears that I had a fuel washdown issue with #1 and #3 causing a lack of critical cylinder wall lubrication which in turn, caused the new unseated rings to gouge the cylinder wall....the oil consumption never got better. I knew something bad had happened at my first oil change when I saw large slivers of steel in my oil.
Randy is fixing it as we speak.

Sigh.....isn't this fun?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13738248515434_zps64007b75.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/skymasteres/media/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13738248515434_zps64007b75.jpg.html)

Well I got the compression test done and this is what I can out with:

#1 188 PSI then up to 225 PSI with 6ml of oil down in the cylinder
#2 149 PSI then up to 200 PSI with 6ml  "  "      "     "  "        "
#3 180 PSI then up to 220 PSI with 6ml  "  "      "     "  "        "
#4 175 PSI then up to 235 PSI with 6ml  "  "      "     "  "        "

Here are pictures of the plugs while I'm at it.

Number one looks pretty good.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13738248506950_zps1780d88e.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/skymasteres/media/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13738248506950_zps1780d88e.jpg.html)

Number two looks bloody awful.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/7e796140-7d17-45f6-8b9c-58adfdbc4a2a_zps0d0c6947.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/skymasteres/media/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/7e796140-7d17-45f6-8b9c-58adfdbc4a2a_zps0d0c6947.jpg.html)

Number three looks good as well.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13738248515905_zps0b95fd0e.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/skymasteres/media/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13738248515905_zps0b95fd0e.jpg.html)

Number four is unbelievably clean.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13738248515153_zpsb65a3d88.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/skymasteres/media/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13738248515153_zpsb65a3d88.jpg.html)

The thing that really kills me is the change in the intake valve clearance on number 4.
It went from 12 thousandths to 8 for no apparent reason.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13738266404266_zps97f3c7ff.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/skymasteres/media/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13738266404266_zps97f3c7ff.jpg.html)

So now I'm wondering if that noise is the intake valve tapping the piston...

Well that's all terrifying. Rebuilding an engine is an intimidating prospect. For so many people, it seems to be hit-or-miss. Very hard to hit perfection, very tight tolerances.

Good thing you checked your valve clearances again. Any chance of a wrong reading before? Could it be valve spring wear?

Loosing valve clearance means that the valve is receding into the valve seat. Time to get a shim and tool from Randy. The Yamaha maintenance specifications say to check your valves at the first 500 mile mark for just such a reason.
The valve is moving further away from the piston crown when the clearance tightens...
The sequence of the tapping, is it 1/2 the crank speed? The cams rotate at 1/2 the crank speed.

Can you get access to a bore scope? Take a look at the cylinder walls of #2.
Perhaps you just need to rehone and reseat your rings but, doubtful with that amount of oil consumption.

Quote from: skymasteres on July 13, 2013, 03:58:39 PM

I don't think I'm leaking oil from engine case anymore, but I'm smoking more now.

I have about 6 quarts of oil in the crankcase right now.

The oil fill cap was so hot it was just about burning my fingers when I took it off. And there was smoke comming out of the fill port for a while. (I think the clutch was probably REALLY HOT)

A couple of suggestions. In case you missed this in the body of Pat's text or failed to attach sufficient importance to it, 6 qts is way too much oil and overfilling engines is one way to bring on leaks.
Once you fill it above the sight glass, you have no idea how much is in there.

The clutch shouldn't get hot unless it's slipping and even then should return to oil temperature pretty quickly. Are you sure it's not the oil that's hot? If the heat source was the clutch there should be a very distinctive smell with cap off.

Is there any chance the oil ring expander was not fitted correctly (butted not overlapped) or the gaps sufficiently staggered? I know, it's a depressing thought, but do you remember addressing this when installing the rings?

Noel

Quote from: ribbert on July 14, 2013, 09:21:48 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on July 13, 2013, 03:58:39 PM

I don't think I'm leaking oil from engine case anymore, but I'm smoking more now.

I have about 6 quarts of oil in the crankcase right now.

The oil fill cap was so hot it was just about burning my fingers when I took it off. And there was smoke comming out of the fill port for a while. (I think the clutch was probably REALLY HOT)

running that much oil in the crankcase you risk the crank webs aerating the oil by contact. this aeration
of the oil results in decreased lubrication in the bearings because the oil loses its ability for hydrostatic lift. it also loses enthalpy, its ability to transfer heat. removing heat from the engine and rejecting heat in the cooler.I hope this hasnt happened, more oil isnt better.
Scott

A couple of suggestions. In case you missed this in the body of Pat's text or failed to attach sufficient importance to it, 6 qts is way too much oil and overfilling engines is one way to bring on leaks.
Once you fill it above the sight glass, you have no idea how much is in there.

The clutch shouldn't get hot unless it's slipping and even then should return to oil temperature pretty quickly. Are you sure it's not the oil that's hot? If the heat source was the clutch there should be a very distinctive smell with cap off.

Is there any chance the oil ring expander was not fitted correctly (butted not overlapped) or the gaps sufficiently staggered? I know, it's a depressing thought, but do you remember addressing this when installing the rings?

Noel

Quote from: FJscott on July 14, 2013, 09:52:43 PM

Quote from: ribbert on July 14, 2013, 09:21:48 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on July 13, 2013, 03:58:39 PM

I don't think I'm leaking oil from engine case anymore, but I'm smoking more now.

I have about 6 quarts of oil in the crankcase right now.

The oil fill cap was so hot it was just about burning my fingers when I took it off. And there was smoke comming out of the fill port for a while. (I think the clutch was probably REALLY HOT)

running that much oil in the crankcase you risk the crank webs aerating the oil by contact. this aeration
of the oil results in decreased lubrication in the bearings because the oil loses its ability for hydrostatic lift. it also loses enthalpy, its ability to transfer heat. removing heat from the engine and rejecting heat in the cooler.I hope this hasnt happened, more oil isnt better.
Scott

A couple of suggestions. In case you missed this in the body of Pat's text or failed to attach sufficient importance to it, 6 qts is way too much oil and overfilling engines is one way to bring on leaks.
Once you fill it above the sight glass, you have no idea how much is in there.

The clutch shouldn't get hot unless it's slipping and even then should return to oil temperature pretty quickly. Are you sure it's not the oil that's hot? If the heat source was the clutch there should be a very distinctive smell with cap off.

Is there any chance the oil ring expander was not fitted correctly (butted not overlapped) or the gaps sufficiently staggered? I know, it's a depressing thought, but do you remember addressing this when installing the rings?

Noel

Just making Scott's contribution more readable. He added the bolded part in his comment, but didn't handle the 'quote' code properly.

Quote from: skymasteres on July 12, 2013, 04:22:02 PM
You know, I normally don't use that many zip ties. But, if you look at the way instrumentation harnesses are
all trussed up... then yeah, I didn't use nearly enough.   :sarcastic:

We use this stuff (http://www.newark.com/alpha-wire/802534b-bk032/lacing-cord-nyl-1-52mm-w-0-3mm/dp/37F2214?in_merch=Popular%20Cable%20Accessories) a lot...

Here's how http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/ (http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/)

It makes for a much smaller bundle, and saves a LOT on zip ties.

I've always liked spiral wrap myself, but I have one of these (http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?sku=70044278&mkwid=LPXgbbGD&pcrid=18584062579&gclid=CPff8fCRtLgCFctcMgodvV0Axw) and ain't afraid to use it!  :good2:

Quote from: andyb on July 16, 2013, 08:41:04 AM
I've always liked spiral wrap myself, but I have one of these (http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?sku=70044278&mkwid=LPXgbbGD&pcrid=18584062579&gclid=CPff8fCRtLgCFctcMgodvV0Axw) and ain't afraid to use it!  :good2:   

or maybe this, ~US$28
http://www.cableorganizer.com/cable-tie-installation-tool/ (http://www.cableorganizer.com/cable-tie-installation-tool/)

Cheers,
Red

Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 14, 2013, 08:33:21 PM
Loosing valve clearance means that the valve is receding into the valve seat. Time to get a shim and tool from Randy. The Yamaha maintenance specifications say to check your valves at the first 500 mile mark for just such a reason.
The valve is moving further away from the piston crown when the clearance tightens...
The sequence of the tapping, is it 1/2 the crank speed? The cams rotate at 1/2 the crank speed.

Can you get access to a bore scope? Take a look at the cylinder walls of #2.
Perhaps you just need to rehone and reseat your rings but, doubtful with that amount of oil consumption.

I think the majority of my "changes" in clearance are due to differences in the oil film on top of the shim
buckets. I am slightly concerned with the tightening up on the number 4 intake valve, but I'll re-shim it
today or tomorrow.  (Maybe I completely spaced out and put the wrong shim in.)

Not sure about the frequency of the tapping. (I never have been good a telling if it's half speed or not.)
It's kind of a rattle more than a tap I suppose. Hard to say. I'll see if it goes away when I re-shim the valve.
(Fingers crossed)

Unfortunately no, I don't have access to a bore scope. That would be a great tool to have for peace of
mind and being able to inspect things without having to tear them completely down.  As it stands now,
I have taken a step back and decided to chill out with all of the panicking. The engine only has 1500 miles
on it. It's got carbs that are not evenly fueling the cylinders. (Some are rich some are lean) I haven't been
really getting on it like I should at this point so it's up in the air as to whether or not I've really done a
nything terrible yet, or if I just haven't been getting enough pressure in number two to load up the rings...

Quote from: FJscott on July 14, 2013, 09:52:43 PM
running that much oil in the crankcase you risk the crank webs aerating the oil by contact. this aeration
of the oil results in decreased lubrication in the bearings because the oil loses its ability for hydrostatic lift. it also loses enthalpy, its ability to transfer heat. removing heat from the engine and rejecting heat in the cooler.I hope this hasnt happened, more oil isnt better.
Scott

You're definitely right about the 6 quarts being too much. When I pulled the oil out it was more like 4.
So I was definitely way over filled, and probably encountered some of those issues. We'll see when I
get it filled back up and running again.  The only thing that really has me concerned is the increased
amount of metal on the oil plug magnet this time around.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13739458027972_zpsdd2874b0.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Break%20in/13739458026971_zpsfd98d17a.jpg)

Quote from: ribbert on July 14, 2013, 09:21:48 PM
A couple of suggestions. In case you missed this in the body of Pat's text or failed to attach sufficient importance to it, 6 qts is way too much oil and overfilling engines is one way to bring on leaks.
Once you fill it above the sight glass, you have no idea how much is in there.

The clutch shouldn't get hot unless it's slipping and even then should return to oil temperature pretty quickly. Are you sure it's not the oil that's hot? If the heat source was the clutch there should be a very distinctive smell with cap off.

Is there any chance the oil ring expander was not fitted correctly (butted not overlapped) or the gaps sufficiently staggered? I know, it's a depressing thought, but do you remember addressing this when installing the rings?

Noel

Noel, I appreciate the insight. I'll smell it next time to make sure about the clutch, but now that you mention
it I know the smell that you're talking about.  I'm 99.99% sure that I had the oil rings installed correctly.
The ends of the expander where it comes together are both bent away from the piston at a 90* angle making
over lapping it impossible. Then the two thin rings that ride above and below it hold it in place. And yes my
ring gaps are staggered.

Quote from: RichBaker on July 15, 2013, 11:40:28 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on July 12, 2013, 04:22:02 PM
You know, I normally don't use that many zip ties. But, if you look at the way instrumentation harnesses are
all trussed up... then yeah, I didn't use nearly enough.   :sarcastic:

We use this stuff (http://www.newark.com/alpha-wire/802534b-bk032/lacing-cord-nyl-1-52mm-w-0-3mm/dp/37F2214?in_merch=Popular%20Cable%20Accessories) a lot...

Here's how http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/ (http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/)

It makes for a much smaller bundle, and saves a LOT on zip ties.

You are correct. That IS the proper way to do it. It was just quicker and MUCH easier for me to just use
the zip ties. (It's not like I have to protect the wiring from +9gs -5gs.)  Those properly trussed harnesses
are nearly indestructible. Of course they're also using shielded Teflon insulated wire.

Okay, so last night I pulled the carbs off and dumped them in the ultrasonic cleaner for 90 minutes.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Carburators/13739858868511_zpsbf24f6c6.jpg)


Holy crap do they come out clean when you do that.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Carburators/13739858886250_zps059c6a4b.jpg)

Spent another 20 minutes blowing them out with air then put them back on the engine and cranked her
up to see if it ran any better. (Also discovered that my bowl plug o-rings are shot so those are getting replaced tonight)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Carburators/13739858876425_zps72d90383.jpg)

Of course it started puking fuel from that center vent 'T' fitting in time with the fuel pump so I think I have
a stuck float or something. It was coming out at fairly high pressure. When I unplugged the fuel pump it
stopped puking. I shut it off and figured I'd deal with it tomorrow.  (And poll the collective consciousness for
something I may have missed or not know)

Speaking of things missed. If you've been reading along you'll probably have noticed that I missed something
else kind of important as well. I little detail like starting the engine with NO OIL IN THE CRANKCASE!   :dash2:

Well, I guess I've just put these coatings to the test. I'll fill it back up tonight and see if I did anything terrible.
(I maybe ran the engine for 45 seconds) Fingers crossed. (Guess I won't ever leave the crankcase empty again)
The sad thing is it sounded great...

Crap, now that I realized that I'm really torqued.
I mean, I still had the oil from the filter in the system, but that's not enough to be picked up and pumped.
It was really fresh 10W-40 oil, so the film should be pretty good, but I don't know how long it would last
with the engine running. (and here I was thinking that whaterver is happening on the top end with the
cylinder and rings, at least the bottom end is still good...) :dash2:

Yes, the proper amount of oil in the crankcase is a must... :bomb:

You really need to get those TMR carbs sorted before you run them on your new motor.
Even if you have to put a set of oem CV36's back on for break in...
If you are dumping gas out the float vents, you can bet gas is washing down your cylinder bores.

You have been warned.

Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 16, 2013, 11:28:05 AM
Yes, the proper amount of oil in the crankcase is a must... :bomb:

You really need to get those TMR carbs sorted before you run them on your new motor.
Even if you have to put a set of oem CV36's back on for break in...
If you are dumping gas out the float vents, you can bet gas is washing down your cylinder bores.

You have been warned.

Well, the dumping fuel out of the vent was a new symptom. It did that for about 10 seconds before I
yanked the fuel pump plug. Then it stopped and everything sounded great. I shut it down and went in
for the night figuring it was a stuck float or something.

As for sorting these out, I'm doing my best. I'm a lot more familiar with these things than the stock carbs
right now. The devil I know vs. the one I don't. (In a sense they're simpler and there's less to go wrong)

I cleaned them out in an attempt to eliminate gunk as a reason for uneven fueling.  As for getting them
"sorted" I'm running out of ideas. I mean, if they're clean, jetted properly to provide adequate fuel, and
balanced between each other what else is there that makes them "sorted" I'm really asking here. They're
simpler than the CV carbs in the sense that there is only one idle screw you can adjust per carb. Syncing
them is accomplished by popping the top covers off and turning an allen bolt then tightening a jam nut.
(It's an eccentric bolt that gives you an adjustment range)

Here is an awesome blow-apart animation of the carbs I have.

http://youtu.be/XYvgUlszW4g (http://youtu.be/XYvgUlszW4g)

I finally found a German manual for these things and I translated the parts identification page.
(Google translator works pretty well here)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Carburators/TMR36-D9Parts_zpsf5c54430.jpg)

If I understand what's going on here I have one air adjustment screw, a main jet, and a needle jet that I
can mess with. With the carbs cleaned out and all of the same main and needle jets, the only reason they
should meter differently is if the air screws or sync settings are different. Right?

On the FCRs at least, the float height is also a critical tuning parameter.  You might want to get a dyno and some help...  it is harder than you'd think to get it right, but the benefits should be huge.

And good luck with the "no oil" incident.  The bearings rely on oil pressure to function properly, so don't be too optimistic.  On the other hand, I had a '65 Ranchero with a 289 (legendarily tough like an FJ) and loud stereo in high school.  One night I was out with a buddy partying and rocking down the road.  At one point we came to a stop sign and the music went silent... I heard the valves clattering (hydraulic lifters), looked down at the oil pressure (aftermarket I had added) only to see ZERO, then shut down immediately.  Towed the car home and found the hex shaped rod that drove the oil pump had rounded off and wasn't engaging the oil pump drive at all.  I have no idea how long I was without oil pressure, but I changed the rod and poured oil in the damned thing and it ran another 80,000 miles before I sold it. 

Frank

Quote from: Flynt on July 16, 2013, 09:48:33 PM
On the FCRs at least, the float height is also a critical tuning parameter.  You might want to get a dyno and some help...  it is harder than you'd think to get it right, but the benefits should be huge.

And good luck with the "no oil" incident.  The bearings rely on oil pressure to function properly, so don't be too optimistic.  On the other hand, I had a '65 Ranchero with a 289 (legendarily tough like an FJ) and loud stereo in high school.  One night I was out with a buddy partying and rocking down the road.  At one point we came to a stop sign and the music went silent... I heard the valves clattering (hydraulic lifters), looked down at the oil pressure (aftermarket I had added) only to see ZERO, then shut down immediately.  Towed the car home and found the hex shaped rod that drove the oil pump had rounded off and wasn't engaging the oil pump drive at all.  I have no idea how long I was without oil pressure, but I changed the rod and poured oil in the damned thing and it ran another 80,000 miles before I sold it. 

Frank

Ahh, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of the float height. I'll have to keep digging to see if I can find
some sort of reference for where to set it on these? As it stands I have to hook my fuel air meter back up
to see where the engine is fuel wise the carbs all squeaky clean.

While on the carb front, I actually have the thing locked up tight now. (At least it doesn't run the fuel pump
till it times out three or four times when I turn it on)  Turns out that the plastic 'T' fitting that I cracked
before going to the rally was in worse shape than I thought.  I started to see fuel dripping off of the fuel
line coming from the pump and ran it back to the really "wet" looking fitting that I had JB Welded before. 
The JB Weld was holding just fine, it was the damage from snapping off the bottom part of the 'T' that did
me in. The crack extended up into the horizontal section and I didn't see it. (Or it grew, not sure which)

Since I already had the carbs off the engine, fixing it was by default easier than it could have been. I had
all of these ideas about how I was going to re-JB Weld the part, or solder it, or do something unique. The
solution ended up being delightfully simple. Just take a brass 1/4" 'T', cut the two ears shorter, and put
the original seals over it. (Well after smoothing the cuts)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Carburators/13740725382083_zps186f37dc.jpg)

I put it back together with the new piece and it works like a charm. No leaks and when I come out to the
garage in the morning and turn the key on the fuel pump clicks twice and stops. If I have to replace the
other fitting this is exactly how I will do it. (I still can't believe they used plastic fittings on the carbs for
the fuel anyway)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Carburators/a94c1d1e-0a78-4743-86ed-e7614efb8a6a_zps903df019.jpg)

As for my bearings and the bottom end, I'm going to be shamelessly optimistic.  :yahoo: I mean, heck, it's not like
I'm going to split the cases unless I absolutely have to. I'm going to assume that I basically used up my
get out of jail free card that these coatings I have on all the moving parts gave me. (That and any oil left
in the lower galleys and filter) I know the oil pressure was zero for its little run (Less than 60 seconds) I
think I'm okay, but I know for sure when my shim comes in today and I can get it out on the road... I mean,
the bearings are designed to handle a little operation with zero oil pressure at start up anyway. I just
inadvertently extended that from like 0.5 seconds to just shy of 60...

I too have experience with engines that have been run without oil Dad's 78 Towncar (Big Block 460) that
had a valve job done. They forgot to refill the case before they started it. Then there was the time the oil
pump failed and sheared the hex drive shaft that went up into the distributor. He ended up driving it the
whole 10 miles home, then to the shop with the oil light on not knowing that there was no oil pressure.
He ran that car for many years after that and the bottom end was never torn down. Engine had around
260,000 miles on it when he sold it. (Of course it got about 12 miles to the gallon so it wasn't tuned
particularly well.)

Well, there's good news and bad news. We'll start with the good since the bad is just too depressing.

I got my 15 amp diodes in so I went out to the garage and started adding them to the harness to quell
the little issues like the accessory switch lighting up all the time and not being able to hook up the stock
ignition because it would keep the lights on.

This one took care of the LED issue. Now when the bike is running the switch doesn't light up and when it's off it does.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13741700904005_zps171ac47a.jpg)


This little setup lets me keep the stock ignition hooked up so it'll start if I have the front panel unhooked
(Like if I'm jumpstarting it) Otherwise because of the voltage drop from the diode it'll feed off the relay circuit.
(And yes, I did heatshrink the diodes before I put the tank back into place)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13741700904316_zpsa389855f.jpg)

Now with everything in place up top I have everything I need to see what's going on. (The temp gauge issue
turned out to be the signal wire grounding to the frame.) That and I added one of those little voltmeters to my
"intrument panel" More good news is that my voltage regulator is just fine as the voltage never goes above
14.3v reguardless of RPM.  :good2:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13741700872672_zps694cf971.jpg)


And then there's this nifty little temperature sensor that is wrapped around sparkplug wire number 1 and
gives me a cylinder head temperature reading.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13741700898042_zps8f15edfb.jpg)


I fired her up with oil in the case this time and everything was normal except that my garage started smelling
like cotton candy. Don't know why. Couldn't figure it out. She seemed okay so I was going with the "everything
will work out" theory. I warmed it up a little and all of the temps and sounds were in line with what they should
be. (Or at least the baseline I have)  Turns out I only dropped a half shim instead of a whole one when I did
that valve on cylinder number 4. With that fixed the strange noise went away.

All in all, pretty good for a couple hours in the garage.

Thank you all for your help comments and for being along for the ride with me.  :hi:  
This is such a great community and I doubt I could fully list all of the little nooks and crannies of this site
from which I have found little golden nuggets of information. I hope that my little adventure here has been
even half as helpful to you guys as it has been for me.  

I don't have enough answers for all of my own questions and I won't know until I take the time to fully
investigate what happened. I am just WAY to emotionally wrapped up in this project and I think I need to
just stop for now because I have reached the limit of what I can handle.

I suppose on the bright side I have a nifty new paperweight that means a lot to me.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/th_13741735024068_zpsc673b714.jpg)

Quote from: skymasteres on July 18, 2013, 02:09:35 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/th_13741735024068_zpsc673b714.jpg)

Damn....which hole is that from?

Randy - RPM

Quote from: skymasteres on July 18, 2013, 02:09:35 PM
Thank you all for your help comments and for being along for the ride with me.  :hi:  
This is such a great community and I doubt I could fully list all of the little nooks and crannies of this site
from which I have found little golden nuggets of information. I hope that my little adventure here has been
even half as helpful to you guys as it has been for me.  

I don't have enough answers for all of my own questions and I won't know until I take the time to fully
investigate what happened. I am just WAY to emotionally wrapped up in this project and I think I need to
just stop for now because I have reached the limit of what I can handle.

I suppose on the bright side I have a nifty new paperweight that means a lot to me.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/th_13741735024068_zpsc673b714.jpg)

WAIT!  WHAT DID I MISS? 
Looks like time for XJR rods...or Carrillos...

Quote from: fj1289 on July 18, 2013, 05:47:12 PM
WAIT!  WHAT DID I MISS? 
Looks like time for XJR rods...or Carrillos...

It was an XJR rod...

Randy - RPM

What the hell happened (besides it broke).....????

Nice work mate, really like the dash panel you've made  :good2:,, is that an rc car temp sensor, have a few of those here, never thought to use them on a real bike :biggrin:

SHIT!  You've done so much good work, and documented it all so well to help all of us.

Please tell us that was a "spare" that you were practicing your superman talents on (since phone books are becoming rare).
I hate those kind of paperweights.  But I have a few :-(

Arnie

Quote from: fj11.5 on July 18, 2013, 05:56:10 PM
Nice work mate, really like the dash panel you've made  :good2:,, is that an rc car temp sensor, have a few of those here, never thought to use them on a real bike :biggrin:

It's a Duratrax digital engine temperature gauge. It's designed for those little 0.49-2.5cc engines that people use on their gas buggies. Nice and small with a short wire to go around the cylinder head. It doesn't care that I have it wrapped around the spark plug instead. The reason for it's placement is the sensor wire is too chart to reach anywhere else. I didn't lengthen the wire because I wasn't sure if it was a thermistor based sensor, or a real thermal couple. If it's a resistor you can just lengthen the wire. If it's a thermal couple you need to make a new wire to the length you want then attach it. (Otherwise you create new junctions and the calibration will be off)

Quote from: skymasteres on July 18, 2013, 02:09:35 PM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/th_13741735024068_zpsc673b714.jpg)

Well, that sucks big time. I guess the source of the metal that kept appearing has now been revealed.

You can't leave us hanging after all this time. Please report when you find the gremlin that caused it.

In the meantime, pick up a cheap motor somewhere and at least keep riding the bike, it might dull some of the pain.

Noel

Cool, thought it may have been,, easier  than using  an infra red temp gauge everytime you check

Okay guys, I'll have to dig for answers but for now I feel like an old stage actor muttering
"The show must go on..."

Quote from: fj1289 on July 18, 2013, 05:47:12 PM

WAIT!  WHAT DID I MISS?  
Looks like time for XJR rods...or Carrillos...

I am still trying to figure that out. Unless you mean literally to which the answer is I had a
catastrophic engine failure. And Randy is correct, they are XJR rods.

Quote from: FJmonkey on July 18, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
What the hell happened (besides it broke).....????

Well, I won't know for sure what happened until I do an autopsy. I can offer a hypothesis based
on the connecting rod that got spit out though.  Looking at the way it bent, and the type of failure
at the broken end I can say with some amount of certainty that the rod bent under a MAJOR compression
load, then failed in tension. If I had to guess I'd say that one or both of the connecting rod bolts
partially stripped allowing there to be play on the big end. Considering the failure happened at 6000rpm
that broken rod would have had plenty of energy with which to blow the hole in the block when it came
loose.

Quote from: Arnie on July 18, 2013, 10:24:48 PM
SHIT!  You've done so much good work, and documented it all so well to help all of us.

Please tell us that was a "spare" that you were practicing your superman talents on (since phone books are becoming rare).
I hate those kind of paperweights.  But I have a few :-(

Arnie

Thanks for the kind words Arnie. No, it wasn't the "practice" engine. One of my whole goals with this
thing was to do it once and do it right. After this last oil change I was figuring I'd go another thousand
miles and switch over to synthetic. Everything about this build was geared towards building a high
output engine that would stand up to another hundred thousand miles.

Quote from: ribbert on July 19, 2013, 08:10:06 AM

Well, that sucks big time. I guess the source of the metal that kept appearing has now been revealed.

You can't leave us hanging after all this time. Please report when you find the gremlin that caused it.

In the meantime, pick up a cheap motor somewhere and at least keep riding the bike, it might dull some of the pain.

Noel

I know that the excess metal was prior to the oil incident, but I don't know what part it came off of
that would have contributed to this failure. (I do have a sample of the oil from the last change. Maybe
I'll have it analyzed for metal content)   As for picking up a cheap motor, it'd have to be. I pretty much
put everything I didn't need into this project. I would like to get back on a bike. But I have too many
projects going right now.

I'll post when I know exactly what happened.


I suppose going back the scene of the crime is appropriate. (Sort of a NTSB interview)
So, morning of, I got the bike loaded up with my tank bag and set up the fuel air ratio meter.
It's funny, with all of the stuff I have up front it's turning into a cockpit.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Modifications/13741700884386_zps0edd0ec1.jpg)


Startup was perfectly normal, got on it and headed out. Before long I was cruising along at 6K with an oil
temp of 165. The temp was coming up so I started to sweep the RPM from about 3000-7000 rpm using
engine braking to get back down and then repeating. The fuel air ratio was doing better on the heavy
load end with the ratio only richening up to 10.5 to 1 vs 9 to 1 like it had been doing before. The interesting
thing though is that in the middle part of the load range the fuel air ratio was richer than it was before,
trending more towards 12.0 than 13.0 like it had before.  I started to knock it off because there was a weird
behavior between 7000-8000 rpm where the power would fall off then come back. I figured it was due to the
carbs but I can't tell exactly what the fuel air ratios were doing because it was changing too much for me to
catch. Hence I stuck with the lower RPMs where it was behaving.


The tragic thing was I was done with my "sweeps" and just settled back into droning along as I glanced
at the fuel air ratio it was at 14.2 at 6K with just a cruising load. Everything appeared normal when I felt
the bike jerk suddenly and simultaneously saw black chunks, that I thought were pieces of the tire, shoot
out to the front and left of me, bouncing along the road, and the rear end stepped way out.  After I got
the bike under control and had the clutch pulled in I realized that it couldn't be the rear tire because it
was rolling way too smoothly for it to be a flat. Then it was the realization that the engine wasn't running
anymore and the concern about what could have possibly come off the bike that would have looked like
chunks of black rubber. There was a little smoke visible as I looked over my shoulder while coasting so I
didn't hit the brakes. I just let it coast to a stop by the side of the road. (Took a whole mile to stop)

I'm glad I did because there was oil all over both tires.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/13741700878654_zps46551ca5.jpg)


Here is the oil trail from the last hundred feet or so.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/13741700900324_zps13ab0591.jpg)


I'm actually kind of suspicious that all of my oil was in the top end when the engine blew because it
was still dripping while I was loading it into the trailer 45 minutes later.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/13741700891640_zpsfe6b0bae.jpg)


As for the carnage that everyone wants to see here it is.

Here's the connecting rod and bolt I found sitting in the chin fairing. (It's just amazing to me that it
was completely ejected from the engine)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/13741700871751_zpsd62fdca8.jpg)


So, my oil temp sensor is still hooked up and the oil cooler lines look okay.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/13741700899653_zps0f2ef7b2.jpg)


There is the main drive gear. You can barely see it, but the cylinder sleeve is also damaged.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/13741700878233_zps2f91bc20.jpg)

Quote from: racerrad8 on July 18, 2013, 02:56:58 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on July 18, 2013, 02:09:35 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/th_13741735024068_zpsc673b714.jpg)

Damn....which hole is that from?

Randy - RPM

This one. It's a MAJOR hole. Both cases taken right out.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/13741700884797_zps2ec62b18.jpg)


The tragic thing is that I had 1605 miles on this engine when it exploded. About 1 100th of the service
life I had hoped to get out of it...


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/13741700885338_zps081ae449.jpg)

Quote from: fj11.5 on July 19, 2013, 08:42:40 AM
Cool, thought it may have been,, easier  than using  an infra red temp gauge everytime you check

Certainly easier than trying to check it with the IR gun while on the move that's for sure.  :wacko2:

Wow. That's pretty heartbreaking.

I have to say, this build almost seemed cursed. I have never heard of so many issues. What's odd is that you seem like such a methodical guy. I just don't know how to reconcile that.

Sorry for your loss. I know I'd be pretty heartbroken right now.

Thanks for all the documentation; I learned a ton, and this thread is still a great resource to others.

Looking forward to the autopsy, hoping for some closure.

Give it a while and then get a spare beater engine, toss it in. Laugh at the irony. Sometimes it's all you can do.

This'll make for one hell of a bar story, though, at least, eh?

First off, you must feel completely gutted at this point.  Sucks big time.

Guess it's a good thing you did great work on all the rest of the bike too -- it's definitely worth holding on to and putting it back on the road!

I'm still "making due" with a stock engine in the FJ1200 after the trailer theft over three years ago - and losing all the parts I had gotten back from the machine shop.  I can feel at least part of your pain...


The circumstances of the failure reminds me of the Pashnit FJ1200 engine failure:  http://www.pashnit.com/fj1200.htm (http://www.pashnit.com/fj1200.htm)

But, I almost spit a mouthful of water all over the screen when I read your response to Randy's question -- funny as hell

Quote from: skymasteres on July 19, 2013, 01:31:32 PM

Quote from: racerrad8 on July 18, 2013, 02:56:58 PM

Quote from: skymasteres on July 18, 2013, 02:09:35 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/FJ1200%20Rebuild/Engine%20Explosion/th_13741735024068_zpsc673b714.jpg)

Damn....which hole is that from?

Randy - RPM

This one. It's a MAJOR hole. Both cases taken right out.

In a few years this will be great story to tell when someone is getting frustrated and ready to give up on their FJ ... until then it will sure hurt for a while

When you get into the autopsy well and figure what can be reused, post up what you need -- I'm sure folks here have some spares they'll be willing to come off of to help out.  I know I've got a few parts I'm not interested in selling, but would be willing to part with to help out with this situation.

Chris

Here you go fella!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-yamaha-fj1200-cases-/130951228131?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e7d4d2ae3&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-yamaha-fj1200-cases-/130951228131?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e7d4d2ae3&vxp=mtr)
Swap over some parts and you are back on the road to recovery!

Leon

Quote from: 1tinindian on July 19, 2013, 09:20:53 PM
Here you go fella!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-yamaha-fj1200-cases-/130951228131?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e7d4d2ae3&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-yamaha-fj1200-cases-/130951228131?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e7d4d2ae3&vxp=mtr)
Swap over some parts and you are back on the road to recovery!

Leon

Awesome. As much as I don't like jumping into things, I figure that's a great deal considering it'll
probably be a long while before I come across another usable set for that price...

Hell mate, that's deverstating  :cray:,, you didn't have to break yours worse than mine just to show me up  :biggrin:  ,,really hope you get her back on the road soon ,,,


Rod

If I had enough money to even donate to my bike, I would donate some to yours because of how well you documented this thread! I hope you can get that eBay block for cheap

Quote from: skymasteres on July 20, 2013, 01:28:42 AM

Quote from: 1tinindian on July 19, 2013, 09:20:53 PM
Here you go fella!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-yamaha-fj1200-cases-/130951228131?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e7d4d2ae3&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-yamaha-fj1200-cases-/130951228131?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e7d4d2ae3&vxp=mtr)
Swap over some parts and you are back on the road to recovery!

Leon

Awesome. As much as I don't like jumping into things, I figure that's a great deal considering it'll
probably be a long while before I come across another usable set for that price...

I see that it sold.
I hope you were the one that got it!

Leon

Wow, majorly depressing. :-(  Not sure what else to say about the failure.

However, one question that I've been wanting to ask.  I thought I saw a picture where the bearing surface was masked off so it wouldn't be coated.  You didn't coat any of the bearing surfaces did you?

 

Quote from: 1tinindian on July 19, 2013, 09:20:53 PM
I see that it sold.
I hope you were the one that got it!

Leon

Yeah, I got it Leon. I figure I can nickel and dime myself to death for a while. Thanks for the link.

Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on July 21, 2013, 05:54:08 PM
Wow, majorly depressing. :-(  Not sure what else to say about the failure.

However, one question that I've been wanting to ask.  I thought I saw a picture where the bearing surface was masked off so it wouldn't be coated.  You didn't coat any of the bearing surfaces did you?

Actually I pretty much coated ALL of the bearing surfaces that had any sort of motion.
About the only sliding surface that wasn't coated were the camshaft journals.  This
includes the bearings themselves.  Well at least the load bearing parts. The back sides
of the bearings, the main bearing supports in the cases, the big ends of the rods
themselves, and the lifter bucket bores were not coated. 

Pretty much everything else got an oil retaining coating. 

So how did you compensate for the clearance that the coating took up in the bearings?

Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on July 22, 2013, 01:34:41 PM
So how did you compensate for the clearance that the coating took up in the bearings?

I've been meaning to ask that same question from the start.

Also ,how do you control the thickness and the uniformity of it in a backyard environment?
Did the motor turn over easily by hand after assembly?
Did you check the main and big end clearance bolted up?

Noel

Quote from: skymasteres on July 21, 2013, 11:36:10 PM

Quote from: 1tinindian on July 19, 2013, 09:20:53 PM
I see that it sold.
I hope you were the one that got it!

Leon

Yeah, I got it Leon. I figure I can nickel and dime myself to death for a while. Thanks for the link.

I've done nothing special,(just cruising ebay for parts) and I just hate to see this project come to an end and I though you couldn't beat the price of those case halves.

Makes me wonder though about the coatings and sand blasting, what are the chances that there was some contamination from those processes that may have lead to the extra hole in the motor??

I guess I fail at understanding what is to be gained verses what you have already lost.

Good luck with the new build! I hope this next one will be the charm!

Leon

Not exactly apples to apples (but it is an air cooled Yamaha!) - a great article on engine development and the advantages of some very early engine coatings

http://justyamahard350.com/articles/dale_1.htm (http://justyamahard350.com/articles/dale_1.htm)

Quote from: ribbert on July 22, 2013, 07:33:34 PM

Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on July 22, 2013, 01:34:41 PM
So how did you compensate for the clearance that the coating took up in the bearings?

I've been meaning to ask that same question from the start.

Also ,how do you control the thickness and the uniformity of it in a backyard environment?
Did the motor turn over easily by hand after assembly?
Did you check the main and big end clearance bolted up?

Noel

Okay, I thought I addressed this back when I started doing the coatings, but I'll go a little deeper.
Here is the commercial for the coating that I used on the bearings, crankshaft, and rod small ends.


CermaLube is a ceramic coating, designed to be used, on any rigid or semi rigid surface experiencing sliding, rotating or oscillating friction. CermaLube is designed to carry loads in excess of 350,000 PSI as well as lubricate at temperatures in excess of 1600F. CermaLube is a combination of a unique water based ceramic resin and lubricating solids including, a ceramic lubricating frit. CermaLube combines the durability of a ceramic resin with the lubricity of the ceramic lubricant. CermaLube works well in light duty applications as well as in applications where high temperatures, high loads and high speeds are experienced. When higher temperatures, than most other types of coatings can provide protection at, are experienced, CermaLube is fully capable of carrying the load. CermaLube is gray in color and acquires a glass like finish in use. CermaLube is formulated to provide a cured film thickness of ".001" or less.

It's not so much that the coating is compensated for than it is prepared in such a way that it's addition
is insignificant. This stuff "burnishes" when it is loaded. The final preparation step is to take scotchbright
pads and polish the coating down to its minimum thickness. It behaves kind of like graphite in this regard
with the bits that might be thicker or high spots breaking off and turning to powder. The scotchbright is
not abrasive enough to fully remove the coating from the base metal, just the excess thickness.

Yes, the motor turned over quite easily with the bottom end assembled. I really don't think I had a
clearance issue.

No, I did not plastigauge the crank. I did however move from blue to brown bearings on reassembly.

Quote from: 1tinindian on July 22, 2013, 10:17:57 PM
Makes me wonder though about the coatings and sand blasting, what are the chances that there was some contamination from those processes that may have lead to the extra hole in the motor??

I would characterize the chances of contaminants from the case preparation process being the root
cause of the failure as remote.  I was soooooo paranoid about making sure that I got all of the abrasive
out of the cases that I spent a considerable amount of time with a rifle cleaning set going through all
of the passages cleaning them out. I also flushed everything multiple times and fished bore cleaning
snakes through them.  The cases were clean.

Quote from: 1tinindian on July 22, 2013, 10:17:57 PM
I guess I fail at understanding what is to be gained verses what you have already lost.

That's not really a fair statement Leon. It wasn't a question of doing these coatings KNOWING that
there was an increased risk of grenading the motor. In fact, coatings of this sort have been used long
enough in industry that their benefits and characteristics are well understood. My goal was reduced
friction and increased longevity. I didn't think of it as a trade off between reliability and performance.

The main benefit of going all crazy with the coatings was to take advantage of the oil retaining nature
of the coating to all but eliminate startup wear from the motor.  That and provide additional protection
from the event that there was metal to metal contact of the bearings. 

One thing to note about this build, 10W-40 oil was too heavy. I noticed that on particularly hot days
(105F+ air temp 210F-220F oil temp) the engine would have much more power and behave "freer" than
on cool days where the temperature was below 80F (190F oil temp)  I was planning on switching to a
10W-30 oil on my next oil change when I went over to synthetic. The main advantage there being that
the lighter oil will incur lower pumping and friction penalties thus improving overall efficiency.

Okay, now you've done it. Now I'm going to have to go back to my Tribology book to show you guys
what is going on behind the curtain...

Imagine that you have a 3 quart bowl of water, and a mixer with a single beater on it running in the
center. After a finite amount of time this "system" will reach equilibrium. There will be a whirlpool with
the lowest point being around the beater and the highest point being the edges. The initial instinct is
that the fluid is just "flung" out away from the beater, that's part of it, but it also demonstrates
Bernoulli's principle. (For you other engineers out there allow me to profusely apologize for this over
simplification. I know the error here for a incompressible working fluid here would be HUGE) The higher
speed of the fluid at the center contributes to a drop in local pressure.

So, that's a 3D example. For journal bearings (pretty much everything in the FJ engine with no balls
in it) let's use a simpler 2D model. (There isn't going to be much difference at the edges anyway.)

Let's look at the flow of a working fluid over a flat plate.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Engine%20Theory/FlowGradient_zps4524a06b.gif)

There is a LOT of information here, but first look at the velocity gradient on the right hand side. 
Consider that the plate is the stationary part of the bearing (like the engine case) and imagine
that you are looking at a cross section of the oil that flows over it that is so thin that it doesn't
reach the part rotating above it. The important thing here is that you note that the oil is NOT
moving where it is in CONTACT with the "plate" and the velocity increases as you rise above the
plate. This is the single greatest reason for the importance of the "clearances" in the engine with
respect to the bearings.  The pressure gradient is the invers of the velocity gradient with the
maximum pressure being at the stationary part of the fluid film.  We are not concerned with the
turbulent boundary layer as the oil is "contained" by the part rotating in it so we never have a
"free streem" on the other side to get fully developed flow.  Since the bearing is fixed, and the
part being supported is moving you end up with a velocity profile that looks more like an "S"
because the parts are "moving" in different directions. 

How about another picture?
(I'm trying not to be too wordy here and failing miserably. It's a lot to try and explain)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Engine%20Theory/Bearings_zps28a6e71f.jpg)

This image shows a three step sequence of the supported shaft from a stop to running state. 
The important concept to grasp here is that the pressure is maximized where the oil film has the
greatest "static" area. This is not necessarily where the film is at its thinnest (due to the increased
velocity) The balance between clearance and oil viscosity is where you determine what the
behavior of the bearing is.  Too light an oil with too great a clearance and you will get cavitation
in the film and your load capacity is destroyed. Too heavy an oil with too little clearance and you
create excess drag and shearing forces.


Now let's look at the surface of the bearings themselves. In spite of how smooth they look, they're
really not.  There are all kinds of little surface imperfections that provide pockets that need to be
filled.  The virtual "surface" of the bearing starts at the tips of the peaks.

This image shows the lubricated bearing surface as it starts to move before there is a full oil film
supporting the bearing. It's just enough to reduce friction, but not enough to prevent metal on
metal contact.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Engine%20Theory/MixedLubrication_zps19c52b10.png)



Here you can see the fully developed oil film and how it supports the bearing surfaces. 
There are pressure and velocity gradients within this layer.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Engine%20Theory/FullLubrication_zps76d166eb.jpg)


Remember that boundary layer? Well here is where it really comes into play. It basically smoothes 
out the flow around all of these imperfections and creates a stabilized layer between the two
surfaces.  The biggest part the oil retaining coatings serve is to create this state right from startup
and eliminate the metal on metal contact.  It also creates a larger static boundary layer which
allows for more favorable pressure distribution on the bearings. This reduces film shear and drag.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/skymasteres/Motorcycles/Engine%20Theory/Boundarylayer_zpsae817067.jpg)


Now let's talk about oil retaining vs. oil shedding. (Basically a non-polar vs. Polar example) Imagine a
waxed hood on a car. What happens when you pour water on it? It flows over the surface until you
run out of water and it beads up. The water doesn't stick to the wax coating and its surface tension
causes it to bead. If you were to pour water on an un-waxed hood with an acrylic finish it wouldn't
bead because it would stick to the finish. Then it slowly evaporates off leaving minerals and what
not behind.

With the oil retaining coating you are basically creating a surface the attracts the oil and creates a
strong film even when the oil isn't "flowing"


Ultimately the whole point of the coating is to reduce losses due to friction and shearing forces.
I hope I've been able to help illustrate the mechanics behind how that is accomplished.