FJ1346 from ashes to... Well, we'll see...

[FJscott]

Gasp!   I was given a free boat one time, the motor looked just like that one on the inside.
That "free" boat was the most expensive project I ever took on.
Feel your pain brother.

[skymasteres]

It is not an option for this engine. If you were to remove material from either half of the case to close up the bores prior to align honing, it would also affect the transmission shaft bores. Cutting only from the upper case will affect the camshaft to crankshaft center-line distance by shortening it. If you cut the bottom half of the case only, then the shift forks engagement would be affected.

Then there are the covers that must fit on each side of the engine; clutch timing & crankshaft cover that have to line up for gasket sealing & bolt fitment.

Randy - RPM

And just like that I'm back to "babe in the woods" status.

You know until you said something about removing material from the mating surfaces I was convinced that any type of "align boring" resulted in perfectly straight bore, with clearances that were opened up... Now that you add the bit about removing material from the mating surfaces and it all makes sense.

Now, I was just figuring you'd have to make up whatever material you removed via the bearings. Wouldn't it be possible just to get some material of appropriate thinness to put under the bearings to make up the difference? The caveat would be that it would have to seal fairly tightly between the bearing and the block to prevent oil from getting in there. (I'm thinking something like tinfoil...)

[racerrad8]

Now, I was just figuring you'd have to make up whatever material you removed via the bearings. Wouldn't it be possible just to get some material of appropriate thinness to put under the bearings to make up the difference? The caveat would be that it would have to seal fairly tightly between the bearing and the block to prevent oil from getting in there. (I'm thinking something like tinfoil...)

Tin foil...?

I would never even would have had that thought and now that you thought of it, I would never even think about trying it.

Tin foil...

Clean what you have up, drop on your original cylinders & pistons with a new set of rings, clean up the valve seats and enjoy the ride. I am not sure I would even pull the bottom end apart to inspect.

BTW, that head looks like it might have oversize S/S valves in it. I can't really tell as the pictures are not large enough for me to see clearly.

Randy - RPM

[ribbert]

Clean what you have up, drop on your original cylinders & pistons with a new set of rings, clean up the valve seats and enjoy the ride. I am not sure I would even pull the bottom end apart to inspect.

Randy - RPM

Perhaps now Randy has spoken you might see some wisdom in this advice.

Line boring and crankshaft grinding used to be standard practice on an engine rebuild of the family car. This was such a common practice a range of undersize bearings were always available  from the manufacturer or after market manufacturers. This was because bottom ends wore out with oil pressure barely registering hot and you could hear them banging around at fairly modest mileages. The need for these repairs has all but disappeared on modern engines for general rebuilds. As I have said before, the bottom end is going to be the last thing that wears out in the FJ, or most other modern motors. The FJ motor may be 30 yo but in the time line of development of internal combustion engines, it is a modern motor.

Every industry has it's favourite sayings. One in the mechanics world is "Don't over think it".  Focus on what needs to be done and leave the rest alone. From you post blow up posts you seem to be adding to the areas to address and delving even deeper for solutions rather than simplifying the process. The fact you even mentioned line boring and packing the shells with tin foil is scary. This line of thinking does not bode well for FJ 2.0.

Step back and start the thinking process afresh. What is on this motor that has shown itself to be inadequate and what is the simplest way to improve it.'

All that information on oil today. Oil is fascination stuff but how critical is your choice of what to use? not very.

There is a guy in the US about to clock over 3,000,000 miles in his Volvo P1800. He bought the car new in 1966. By today's standards, the oil available in the '60's and '70's over his first million miles was rubbish and even today's cheapest oils are probably far superior to what he ran.

You said in your post today, " I won't know what to do with myself when it's over". I suspect you are enjoying the process as much if not more than the prospect of just riding.

Randy has given the most common sense advice to date on this, take it.

Noel

[JMR]

Align boring can work for cam caps in bike engines....that's about it. Like I said earlier...when you start pulling valves out of the guides because the buckets are stuck etc etc etc you have problems. If you have that much ferrous on the magnet imagine how much non-ferrous was running around.
I certainly don't mean to be a dick but....with all humility....have built large displacement motorcycle engines (as well as small units for road racing)...that work well.

[1tinindian]

Here is some food for thought... the 183,000 mile FJ that came from Minnesota had the oil changed at 3000 mile intervals with the most basic, non synthetic oil available from a farm and fleet store...and it's still running strong!

No rocket science there!

If only this engine was in need of a teardown (which, at this time, it is NOT), it would be very interesting to see the state of wear that has (or hasn't) gone on in this many miles.

I would tend to offer the same advice as Randy, in not over thinking your next engine build, and enjoy your Kookaloo!

As interesting as this has been to follow, I know you'd really rather like to be riding your FJ.
Best of luck to you!
Leon

[skymasteres]

Noel. You're probably right about over thinking it. But then again, it's hard not to when everything I've done
here is under such a giant f*cking microscope that every little thing gets hyper analysed.

Take the issue with the coating on the valve spring caps. I would have had an assembly issue even if I hadn't
done that coating. The issue was the leftover wax that was still in the valve cap cover bores. It wasn't the
coating.  It wasn't some sort of grit. IT WAS JUST LEFTOVER WAX

And my comment about not knowing what to do with myself after I get it all figured out was supposed to be a grand scheme of things joke. (Hence the, and I'll keep working on the project thing)  

I'd rather be riding and enjoying this thing. But I have to rebuilt it first. Well that's not true.
I have to get this other motor put in it. I'm just going to take my time with figuring out what to do with the rebuild.

I thought the nice thing about doing it with all the documentation and on the open forum would be to be able to present ideas, even hair brained ones and get feedback. like the foil thing. I wouldn't actually put tin foil under bearings. I was just spit balling with how to handle the clearance issue if the main journals were bored but the mating surfaces of the case were left alone. It was an idea for an avenue of investigation if thicker bearings aren't available.

I mean, I really didn't think that the main bearing bores were even an issue, I was just keying off a new piece of information.

As for this "new" engine, I'm not going into the bottom end of it unless I have to. When I talked to Randy yesterday we came to the conclusion that my best course is to just re-ring it and build it.

I effectively have two projects now. Get the bike back on the road with the second engine; and figure out what the failure was and fix it on the first engine.

I'm going to keep slinging my "hair brained" ideas about theory and principle and try to sift through the comments I receive for the little nuggets of truth.

As for my ludicrously long posts I'm sorry guys. I've been going through MOUNTAINS of data and researching my but off to be able to verify the ideas that I am posting here. If I actually posted all of the data that I have been through to verify things then I might as well be writing a doctoral thesis.

But there's a lot to be said for not "over thinking" it. Just because you "can" use the data to fully model the operation of all of the parts working together doesn't mean it's a good use of time. I mean, even if I do figure it all out here, model it, verify the model, compile all the data, and create a plan.... What's the point. It's not like I could afford the machine work or custom parts all for gains that would probably be immeasurable.  

There's another saying that I think more aptly describes the point I have reached with this.
The point of diminishing returns.
I have reached it, and completely BLOWN past it....

Thanks for the help guys.  

Oh, and the "new" head has stock valves.

[ribbert]

When I talked to Randy yesterday we came to the conclusion that my best course is to just re-ring it and build it.
I effectively have two projects now. Get the bike back on the road with the second engine; and figure out what the failure was and fix it on the first engine.

Good call. The advice you need isn't always the advice you want to hear. This gives you a bike to ride and an engine to tinker with without any pressure.
Having now made that choice, I'm sure the wisdom of it will become increasingly obvious.
So, you end up with a version of having your cake and eating it too anyway.

You need a project bike, or at least an engine, AND a daily rider.

A week or so back I suggested the above while promoting the virtues of a standard motor.
My posts on the benefits of this drew flack from all over. I was called a crotchety old man, a contrarian, a naysayer, spoilsport, a Monday morning quarterback, it was suggested you ignore me,  my experience was summarily dismissed and more.

Fair enough, we are all entitled to our opinions.

What amuses me is, a week of campaigning from me with you fighting me right up to the last, then one call with Randy and suddenly that's exactly what's happening.

Man, I've REALLY got to work on my credibility, or start using deodorant, or.........

Noel

[FJscott]

I appreciate the longwinded posts, Ive learned more about the inside of the FJ from your well documented build than from reading the repair manual ever could. that's what I believe the forum is for.
throw an Idea out there, sift thru the comments and cherry pick the good stuff. don't get discouraged.
sounds like you are on the right track with FJ 2.0 and don't stop asking "what if" if we never experimented with new ideas, good and bad we would all still be driving model A fords.

keep up the good work.

Scott

[racerrad8]

Oh, and the "new" head has stock valves.

Oh well, like I said the picture is small and I cannot zoom it in. Looking a the dish of the valves through the liquids & gunk makes it look like they are smooth face S/S intake valves.

Randy - RPM

[skymasteres]

Good call. The advice you need isn't always the advice you want to hear. This gives you a bike to ride and an engine to tinker with without any pressure.
Having now made that choice, I'm sure the wisdom of it will become increasingly obvious.
So, you end up with a version of having your cake and eating it too anyway.

You need a project bike, or at least an engine, AND a daily rider.

A week or so back I suggested the above while promoting the virtues of a standard motor.
My posts on the benefits of this drew flack from all over. I was called a crotchety old man, a contrarian, a naysayer, spoilsport, a Monday morning quarterback, it was suggested you ignore me,  my experience was summarily dismissed and more.

Fair enough, we are all entitled to our opinions.

What amuses me is, a week of campaigning from me with you fighting me right up to the last, then one call with Randy and suddenly that's exactly what's happening.

Man, I've REALLY got to work on my credibility, or start using deodorant, or.........

Noel

Noel, what you may not realize is that there is a delay from what I have done, and what I have time to post
about.  I can't tell you how frustrating it is to get the old "Well this is what I would do" when you're already
doing it behind the scenes...  Then to get the "I told you so" is just infuriating.  Of course you didn't know
you were coming off as a crotchety old bastard because I just tried to handle it in "real time"

Not a credibility issue. Just a personably one.   And in spite of all of my personal feelings about your manner
of address on this forum, I haven't "ignored you". (Though it's been tempting...) I get that you have all kinds
of practical experience. It's just not the same sort of thing I'm trying to do here. I'm not trying to have a
downrated engine putting out 75% of its original power so it'll last forever. I'm trying to get 50% more power
out of the thing while keeping the original service life or even improving on it slightly. I know that's a lofty goal
and, with all of the practical constraints of building on a budget, may be impossible.

I feel that if I'm more careful about my clearances and assembly this time around I may have a better
chance.  Little details like assembling it with plastigauges, disassembling it, swapping bearings, and rechecking.
I'll have to do some thinking on the comment to break the engine in, then tear it down to coat the bearings.
(I am leaning towards it being unnecessary if the tolerances are right to start with but we'll see.)

Calling Randy wasn't an issue with the credibility of the responses I've been getting here. It's just that I have
his number and I was trying to answer a specific question about the cylinder service limit and if being slightly
over factory out of round limits was really going to be an issue with reusing my original 1200 cylinder block.
(I didn't use it or the pistons in the first build because I got that great deal on the XJR1250 block that was
already pre-sleeved for the 82mm pistons)

Heck, I chat with many people offline in my never-ending quest for information. Randy has a LOT of practical
experience and empirical data that I can draw on. Sometimes we agree to disagree. I try and keep an open
mind and listen to informed opinions even if they are contrary to what my line of reasoning has led me to.

As hard as it may be to believe, you can't find everything on the internet. Well, at least not on
Yahoo answers or something ... I read a few really interesting papers on tribology and synthetic polymer
lubricants yesterday. Most of it wasn't really applicable, but it was still neat learning what all of the testing
methodologies was.  (It took me forever to find out what exactly what a "cycle" of the Orbahn Shere Stability
Test  entailed. Everyone referenced the test, but I had to REALLY did to figure out what it was actually doing
to the oil.)

I appreciate the longwinded posts, Ive learned more about the inside of the FJ from your well documented build than from reading the repair manual ever could. that's what I believe the forum is for.
throw an Idea out there, sift thru the comments and cherry pick the good stuff. don't get discouraged.
sounds like you are on the right track with FJ 2.0 and don't stop asking "what if" if we never experimented with new ideas, good and bad we would all still be driving model A fords.

keep up the good work.

Scott

Thanks Scott. But to be fair, the tinfoil idea was a doosey.  I mean, it's not uniform in thickness, the surface
is polished, and it's probably too thick for the application anyway...

I have a little new information to share on the carnage. I was talking with my brother about the incident and
as I was reviewing the pictures I realized that the sleeve for the engine mount bolt was shrapnel damaged as
well.  So, I figured I'd crack open the shell and take a look. (I've been keeping her hidden away to deal with
the anxiety of wanting to tear into finding my answers on the failure.)





And of course a half cover to try and keep the dust at bay...




Here you can get a slightly better view of the sleeve for the engine mount bolt.






The only reason I really went in there was, I figured if the engine mount sleeve got damage, what else up
there got hit... Of course I was really surprised when I looked closer and realized that what I originally was
the side of the cylinder that got nicked was actually the piston skirt.





You can just see where the connecting rod passed through the part of the skirt that is hanging below the
bottom of the cylinder. You can also see that yes, the cylinder wall fractured as well since there is a piece
missing.  (I just wonder if it damaged the block as well...) The back side of number three and four header
pipes got dinged pretty good as well. (that's probably what caught the connecting rod and let it land in the
chin fairing actually)

[skymasteres]

Oh well, like I said the picture is small and I cannot zoom it in. Looking a the dish of the valves through the liquids & gunk makes it look like they are smooth face S/S intake valves.

Randy - RPM

Yeah, I got all excited so I checked last night. (Thought maybe I'd gotten lucky twice or something...)
They all have "36Y" cast into them. 

Lol

[jscgdunn]

 

[skymasteres]

Hey Frank, if you had to do it over again...would you lighten the crank?

Pat,

yes i would do it again .... it was quite a learning curve with this engine ( in more ways than one ) but after getting about 20K miles on it i have my right hand calibrated better......smooth is the key word.

what the lightened crank provides when you really want to get on it is priceless.... especilly with flatslides.

snap the flatslides open at 3 grand and it hits like a very big and pissed off two stroke coming up on the pipe
instant go literally..... its got so much torque i take off from stops in second gear most times using no more throttle than i used to use in first with the stock engine. (and i'm talking "taking off" in second)

with stock carbs ....  snap the throttle open at 3 grand and the revs still build much quicker than with a stock crank... but you have to wait about a half a second while the slides open... .then the kookaloo comes.

the stock carbs help smooth out ham fisted throttle applications (deceleration especially )  and to be honest they do really well and pull to about 9200 RPM (and plenty fast) before they cant flow any more and it falls on its face.... the FCR's will pull all the way to 10500 with much more on the big end.

IE more speed gained vs.time........ hypothetically speaking 

.Kookaloo!

I was cruising around looking for the answer to an exhaust question and came across the above post.
That's about my exact experience with the lightened crank and the flat slides.  Well, minus the spinning the wheel and lifting the front end bit. (I was deliberate about being very smooth with the throttle from the get go.) Definitely envious of the longevity, seeing as he had 20k on the motor. I wonder what it's up to now...

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=2607.60

So yeah, definitely not pioneering here as the above post is almost three years old...

[fintip]

Oh, a lightened/balanced crank on an FJ is definitely not an innovation. I assume you surely have, but you have gone through the FJracer site, right? He lightens/balances the crank as well. That machine is a BEAST. And his wear reports indicated really good things when he reported, almost no wear at all (riding really hard, taking it apart just to refresh it post-season).