FJ1346 from ashes to... Well, we'll see...

[The General]

Excellent Report. In at least two of the still shots the camera has captured the grit flying up from the front wheel which I too believe let go before the rear. I`ve done everything you did on a number of occasions and will be more alert in the future thanks to your post. I am surprised the grit was there considering the location. (Not an inside corner, no driveway entry and it would be even more rare that a vehicle had returned to the bitumen there, following a pullover for whatever).

I would sell the rights to your post to the Jeans manufacturer, seriously. I bet you get a new set of jeans (minimum) and certainly enough to cover parts. (note the shots of your knee grinding the bitumen. The reinforced knee section withstood the abrasion more than I thought it would.)...PM me the name of the manufacturer please.

[skymasteres]

WOW Mike ! I cringe at seeing that stuff.  Nice video record of the front wheel.  Surprised to see how much the front rotor flexed. You have used the shit out of the engine guards  . Glad you were not hurt and walked away. The bike is fixable.
George

Thanks George. The rotor didn't flex actually. A lot of the "flex" of the wheel and tire in the video is the distortion of the go pro's wide angle lens.

That's most unfortunate Mike. There is a bright side though, the bike's rideable, with only superficial damage, you are uninjured and you got a great video of it.
I too do the multi apex thing when I'm a bit bored to practice swerving and tightening up corners.

The irony is, practice is meant to stop you falling off.

Might be my eyes, but I reckon the front wheel starts to wash out first then the back hits the same stuff and lets go.

It's good to see the recurring theme through your posts in recent times of how much you are enjoying riding and improving your skills. It's a lot more fun than protracted engine builds (ha ha)

"Yer 'ain't rode til ya been throwed".  Plato?, Pyrro?,  Buffalo Bill? ..........

Noel

Yeah, I've definitely been riding the crap out of the bike. And yeah, the irony of going down practicing is not lost on me. But to be fair, I was accepting more risk as well.

[skymasteres]

Excellent Report. In at least two of the still shots the camera has captured the grit flying up from the front wheel which I too believe let go before the rear. I've done everything you did on a number of occasions and will be more alert in the future thanks to your post. I am surprised the grit was there considering the location. (Not an inside corner, no driveway entry and it would be even more rare that a vehicle had returned to the bitumen there, following a pullover for whatever).

I would sell the rights to your post to the Jeans manufacturer, seriously. I bet you get a new set of jeans (minimum) and certainly enough to cover parts. (note the shots of your knee grinding the bitumen. The reinforced knee section withstood the abrasion more than I thought it would.)...PM me the name of the manufacturer please.

Thanks. I think that most of the grit that you see coming up from the front is after the tire is skipping down the road. But yeah, the grit definitely got me.

I'll have to look into that. (Although I don't know if they'll bite.)

[andyoutandabout]

That was a thrilling video. Unlucky on the gravel. Looking at the footage suggests the front wheel was the origin, but you were on it, so if you felt the rear break away, then I'll believe that. At least you're not physically broke and those lovely engine bars made sure you're not going to be financially embarrassed either.
Hope you get all fixed up and ready for the WCR.
Andy

[FJmonkey]

Having been with Mike on some of his unscheduled dismounts I have seen the value of the Renntec bars from RPM. I now have a set, and like all of us wish to never need them. This guy can crash and keep riding like it was nothing, even Lilly cannot be thrown off for good.... The message here is use the best gear you can afford.... Nuff said....

[racerrad8]

                           
Although, on a side note. If all you have big socket wise are impact sockets, you'll need to thin the tip of it down slightly on the grinder to make it fit the recess around the retention bolt.

Mike, that is no longer a problem as it was addressed on the newest version of the RPM oil filter adapter.

Randy - RPM

RPM Spin-On Oil Filter Adapter

I have gone to a new manufacture and have changed the design slightly. The design change was done to address the only complaint people have ever had about the adapter; the hole for the socket wasn't large enough and some sockets had to be ground down to fit inside.

Randy - RPM

[racerrad8]

Mike, I notice at 51 seconds you make a very revealing comment on the video...

I wonder how the fuel pump knew it was time to shut off?

If the fuel pump did not have a means to shut off like Yamaha designed it to do, what would have happened if you were down on the roadway, injured and unable to get your bike upright.

Could there possibly be a fire due to the fuel just continually pumping itself through the carbs?

This revealing comment should be considered if anyone is thinking of converting their gravity feed FJ over to a fuel pump.

But, I still wonder how the fuel pump knew it was time to shut off by itself...

Randy - RPM

[ribbert]

Mike, I notice at 51 seconds you make a very revealing comment on the video...

I wonder how the fuel pump knew it was time to shut off?

If the fuel pump did not have a means to shut off like Yamaha designed it to do, what would have happened if you were down on the roadway, injured and unable to get your bike upright.

Could there possibly be a fire due to the fuel just continually pumping itself through the carbs?

This revealing comment should be considered if anyone is thinking of converting their gravity feed FJ over to a fuel pump.

But, I still wonder how the fuel pump knew it was time to shut off by itself...

Randy - RPM

Wouldn't that be because the motor had stopped running and it timed out like it does when you turn the ignition on but don't start the engine?

For anyone considering the changeover there are many ways to incorporate this safety feature, as recently discussed here. Rollover valves, mercury switches, intertia switches etc. Cheap and easy to install it you want to cover all bases.
Noel

[skymasteres]

The same way the stock pump knows how to shut off Randy.  If the ignitor boxe doesn't get a pulse signal from the crank trigger the fuel pump will time out and shut off. (There's a delay in the cut out circuit to allow for filling empty carburetor fuel bowls when the key is turned on)

[Pat Conlon]

Mike's '90 came with a fuel pump.

A simple solution I can think of in retrofitting a pump on my '84, is to convert the ignition pickup and run a '89+dci box to control the pump.

What do the Legend/Thunder  cars do?

[movenon]

Take a look at this. Electronic fuel pump controller. Might be able to come up with our own circuit.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12v-Electric-Fuel-Pump-Relay-On-Off-Controller-Safety-Switch-3-Sec-Key-On-Primer-/271450424268

George

[racerrad8]

Mike's '90 came with a fuel pump.

Exactly, and it worked as designed.

A simple solution I can think of in retrofitting a pump on my '84, is to convert the ignition pickup and run a '89+dci box to control the pump.

Might be more complicated than that, you will probably have to change over the complete wire loom as well, but hey I am just speculating here.

What do the Legend/Thunder  cars do?

We run a single ignition switch that powers four things, the CDI, coils, alternator & fuel pump. There are no sort of safety features associated with them in case of an accident.

Wouldn't that be because the motor had stopped running and it timed out like it does when you turn the ignition on but don't start the engine?

For anyone considering the changeover there are many ways to incorporate this safety feature, as recently discussed here. Rollover valves, mercury switches, intertia switches etc. Cheap and easy to install it you want to cover all bases.
Noel

Why Noel, yes it would be the reason the fuel pump shut off, it timed out. As Mike has also pointed out the fuel pump timed out because it did not see a signal from the CDI.

Oh wait; we just covered this didn't we...

Perhaps I am missing something. But it seems like that is the case. On more than one occasion I witnessed a FP bike being primed by turning the key on till the pump stops clicking, then doing that several more times. I have seen this more than once to fill up empty bowls. If that is not the case, then why does the pump keep clicking after the second and following attempts if the bowls are full? If that is not the case then the ignition switched power for the pump is not an issue for the conversion from GF to FP...

No, you are correct...

That is because the fuel pump circuit is part of the CDI which also controls the spark. That boils down to; no spark, fuel pump runs for preset time and then shuts off.

For anyone interested in converting the gravity feed FJ's over, according to Noel, there are many options that have been covered by incorporating a variety of switches to your FJ.

Noel, have you done this modification and found what works the best for you or are you just speculating that any or all of these switches combined will do what the CDI circuit Yamaha designed it to do, will be covered? We will come back to that question later...

Mike, do you think a rollover switch would have worked in your crash; by the video it looks like the bike just laid down and slid and did not rollover did it?

I wonder when does a "rollover" switch actually open to stop current flow?

The mercury switch might work, but at what angle do you set the mercury switch to shut off the fuel pump? If you do add a mercury switch to your FJ and you are in a corner with your knee down, I wonder if the gravity will cause the mercury to flow to the opposite side of the switch and shut down the fuel pump because we all know what happens when the fuel pump shuts off, the engine stumbles and you have to use your reserve switch to refill the bowls.

Can you use just one mercury switch or are two required for each opposite lean angle? How do you control the left and right switches independently?

Or maybe mercury switches were designed for slow speed movement, like a trunk opening to activate the light or a home thermostat spring adjusting to temperature changes and should not be used on a motorcycle that have heat, gravity & vibration concerns.

Then there is the fact mercury has been outlawed in the US for many years because it is toxic.

So, maybe the mercury switch is not the best answer for a form of fuel pump cut-off switch based on my limited experience with mercury switches back in the 70's.

Mike, here is another one I hope you can comment on, do you think an inertia switch would have worked?

Was the rear of the bike hit at a speed of 30 mph (48.2km/h)? Did the bike strike anything sliding backwards, like another vehicle or guardrail hard enough to trip an inertia switch or were you going slower than that? Oh wait the video shows it did not...
Here is the current NTHSA report on inertia switches and their required operation; http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/301nprm/index.html Direct rear impact is the required test. (Maybe things are different in Australia)

So, that makes me wonder, which way do you mount the inertia switch, or do you have to have several to compensate for the side that would be impacted?

There is also the option of the oil pressure switch which I believe is classified above as "etc." But, I personally have tried this option and based on my experience, I was never able to find a switch that could stand up to the heat & vibration plus the oil pressure is low enough at hot idle, the fuel pump could shut off while sitting at a stop light.

Speaking from experience, with all of the low oil pressure switches I tried for this application this happened to me regularly because they did not go low enough before they opened and broke the electrical circuit controlling the fuel pump. So, the oil pressure would drop below the 7-10 PSI rating and open the circuit shutting off the fuel pump, yet the engine would idle until the bowls ran dry and the engine would then die. Also one more thing, when the switch does fail from heat and vibration the fuel pump will not run, period.

Oh wait, that was covered too;

No, it is a safety feature Yamaha uses incorporating the CDI signal. If there is no CDI spark signal then the pump shuts down after 3-5 seconds.

This is the most important in case of a crash where the engine is no longer running but the ignition is still on to prevent fuel from being just pump through the carbs as the bike lays on its side.

So, if you want to convert a gravity bike to fuel pump the only other option would be to use a low oil pressure switch to shut the pump off when the bike is not running. There will need to be a bypass switch to prime the carbs when they are empty or if the bike has been sitting and the fuel could have evaporated.

The only problem we found with a low oil pressure switch is the FJ idle at around 3-5 lbs when warm. We tried to use them on the cars but with the engine warm & idling the oil pressure was not enough to keep the switch energized and the car would run out of fuel.

Randy - RPM

So, imagine this scenario. You are out for a ride on your recently converted FJ which is now sporting a fuel pump with a low oil pressure switch. You are stopped at a stop light, the engine is idling at full operating temperature around 3-5PSI. The fuel pump shuts off because the oil pressure is so low, yet the bike keeps idling while you wait for the light to change. The light turns green you twist the throttle and bawh-bawh it dies. You hit the starter button and it won't start because the fuel bowls are dry or darn near close and will not draw fuel. You now feel the pressure of other motorist behind you as they are yelling and honking their horns, but your FJ will not start.

What do you do, how do you prime the carbs again while sitting in the middle of the road?

Well, you might have wired in a "bypass switch" to prime the carbs when there is no oil pressure, so you hit that switch and after many seconds (usually 2-3 normal cycles on the stock CDI timer) the bowls fill and the bike starts. You twist the throttle and race out of the intersection, totally forgetting to deactivate the "bypass switch" you activated.

So, now what good is all of those "safety features" you "incorporated"; none, nada, zero, zilch...

Or better yet, you do remember to deactivate the "bypass switch" and it happens all over again at the next stop light, just like a repeat, repeat, repeat...

One option for this would be to sit at the stop lights and continually rev your engine like the harley riders always do, but your fuel mileage will definitely suffer.

So, back to my question from earlier...
    Noel, have you done this modification and found what works the best for you based on your experience or are you just speculating?

Noel, my questions are not offered before you to create innuendo, mock you, to be offered as any form of sarcasm, or as a means of dismissing your knowledge and I hope you do not feel my detailed reply to your statement is an over reaction to nothing; quite the contrary I hope you can answer all of the questions posed to you from your personal experiences.

Sure, I made some sarcastic comments above, but please do not be offended by them, they are made to lighten the tone. It is just that I want to finally be able to find the definitive answer to the questions.

I just wish I could have been able to get together and talk with you while I visited Australia for a month and the Australian Rally after I traveled half way around the world, but I was told by others in attendance that "something came up" on your end and you would not be attending this year, I think that would have been really good. Maybe someday you can make it over to the US and I can buy you a beer, or beverage of your choice if you don't drink alcohol.

I think Arnie & I came to a mutual place where we both understand each other and in the end there were no hard feelings over comments misunderstood by the typed instead of spoken word; face to face.

Heck, I think he even bought me a beer.

Noel, finally one more question I hope you can answer to maybe we'll be able to close this fuel pump/CDI/reserve switch topic for the final time and move on to the next...

How do you go about modifying the reserve function on the early FJ to not allow it not to run the tank dry since the late model reserve function only shuts off the fuel pump?

Randy - RPM

EDIT:
So, I inquire above and George does his homework, coming up with what looks like the best solution of all, an aftermarket electronic device that does everything the "switches" inquired about above are thought to do.

Fuel Pump Controller

Great find George, that module looks like it will do everything the factory late model CDI will do in regard to the fuel pump, with the exclusion of the reserve function of shutting down the fuel pump to keep it from running the tank dry; Noel, any ideas?

[skymasteres]

Well I totally missed the tongue in cheek nature of your fuel pump post Randy. But that controller certainly looks like a great solution to me.


All I know is for me, the best reason to run a fuel pump over a gravity feed is it gives you a good to the last drop fuel system.

[movenon]

There are a lot of benefits to convert from gravity to a fuel pump. Or at least enough to consider it. Getting rid of the gravity feed petcock system and to have a fuel filter IMO are the biggest plus's.  And you have nice fuel pressure down to the last drop. (as Mike recently experienced).

Some say the gravity feed is more reliable. I question that.  Ask someone with a bad gravity feed petcock, pinched line or pilot jets that keep plugging up.

Here's the deal, I have a 3' section of fuel line with straight barb fittings coiled up in my tail section storage area and if my pump ever fails I will just hook that hose from the input side of my fuel filter and to the fuel line feeding my carbs.  Now I have a gravity feed system that will get me down the road at 70-80mph until I replace the pump which is 50 -80.00 depending on where you buy it. Three feet of hose is more than you need but it is easy to make it shorter, not so easy to make it longer.

I am also running a Facet electronic cube fuel pump with a Fram fuel filter in my 1990. I am a supporter of a fuel pump conversion system into a 84-87 FJ's. There are issues to be sorted out but I see nothing that can't be done.  As stated by Randy you can get pretty close to the Yamaha system.  The reserve fuel issue is something to think about or just live with.  I am at a handy cap as I don't have an early FJ to work out the mod.  

I can't say what the reliability of the Facet pumps are yet. Guess time will tell.  But so far so good.  Ran her today for about 2 miles at 120mph wasn't lacking for fuel........ I think the rider was the weak link...
George

[ribbert]

Ha ha, I could feel the breath on my neck of someone waiting to pounce when I wrote that, I just wasn't sure who's it was. I made a mistake, in that context I shouldn't have offered any specific suggestions, it occurred to me at the time I should have deleted them.
I was just wanting to convey the idea that any of those issues can be easily overcome.
No, I haven't done this mod on a bike and until I do won't give it much thought, but I do understand the issues that need to be addressed and don't see it as a biggy.

When asked in principle if something can be done, my stock answer is yes, there is always a way, and in this case not a difficult one.

First thoughts on how it might be done though are rarely what you end up proceeding with when you devote some serious thought to it or set about doing the job.
Most "going where no man has gone before" type mods throw up a few hurdles that only present themselves as you're going along. But they are just that, hurdles to be overcome, not stumbling blocks that prevent you getting there. Concentrate on how to do it, not on all the reasons why you can't!

The answer probably lays in the "etc". If I was doing this job, or asked to advise on how one might go about it, I would do some research and come up with a specific solution. Make a list of the things that need to be addressed and I'm sure 5 minutes on the net would throw up a plethora of automotive or industrial solutions, such as the one George found.

The only thing I will address specifically is the fuel reserve/pump running dry issue. I would use the exact same system that cars use!

If you interpret my generalised, "in principal" reply as avoiding a technical discussion, you're right. 

Yes, I was looking forward to meeting Chandra and yourself (and all the others). I have only met Arnie and Doug (the General) in the flesh.
If I did make it to the US, that would be a drop of California's finest red. Alas, that seems like a case of "California Dreamin' "

Noel, any ideas?

Yes, it's a nice day, I'm going for a ride.

Noel