FJ1346 from ashes to... Well, we'll see...

[FJ_Hooligan]

Hooligan, I have bone stock brakes.  ...  And yes, when that adrenalin spikes and turns you into "He-Man", it's fairly easy to lock up the front wheel.  And yeah, it wasn't the bike's fault just the idiot riding it.

Mike, I did not mean to imply that you or the brakes were at fault.  It was a panic situation and I don't think anyone really knows how they will react when that time comes along.  Ed hit it on the head.  The BEST brakes are the brakes that you're BEST with.

Noel, I am not advocating for "dumb" brakes or brakes that won't lock up.  I love sensitive and powerful brakes; when I'm totally in control and nothing goes wrong.  However, I seriously doubt that most riders are good enough to handle "one finger" braking power in a panic situation.  As Mike has unfortunately demonstrated, even the stock FJ front brakes have adequate power. 

[ribbert]

However, I seriously doubt that most riders are good enough to handle "one finger" braking power in a panic situation. 

It's not a matter of being "good enough" it is simply a matter of practice. You practice it often enough and it becomes the panic reaction.

Noel

[andyb]

Noel likes to argue as much as I do.  Because he's an asshole.

But in this case, he's right.  Practice what you want to do in an emergency until it's second nature... and it will be what you do in an emergency.

That said, shrieking like a little girl in a parking lot will eventually get the cops called on you.  And yet, I can do it in a panic situation without any trouble, thanks to my practice.

[skymasteres]

Firstly, brakes did cause the accident, he locked the front wheel up on a near vertical bike and it washed out from under him. The fact the forks fully compressed under brakes also suggests the tyre had tons of grip, that is, no sand.

Noel, I know. I need to work on my braking. But I don't know where the "nearly vertical" comment is coming from.  If I were 5-10 degrees from vertical, okay. But for the perspective impaired I'll attache this, which is a few frames before I grabbed the brakes.





In the slow motion you can see the way all of the forces interact as the tire grips the road. The front end dives dramatically because the for springs are really light, and the racetech valves I'm running go into bypass when they're loaded like that. You can also see the way the bike wants to "stand up" and how this tendency immediately disappears when the tire begins to slide and the bike falls back over. 

Guys, relax, you're not hurting my feelings over the braking thing. I know I screwed up. I have been and will continue practicing with the brakes to get to that second nature point. It's just that I am so dang nervous about locking them even in a controlled situation when the bike is upright.

I think an important point that most of you know, but don't necessarily understand, is that you have a "traction budget" for every tire on the vehicle. (It applies to cars too) A tire only has so much traction to offer you. This available traction changes continuously due to factors such as road surface, tire temperature, and weight being carried. The temperature and road surface are the less dynamic factors for my level of riding. The bigger one that played in this case was the loading. Your available traction goes up, to a point, when you put more weight on your contact patch. When you grab your brakes in a panic you can clearly see that there is a DRAMATIC shift of weight to the front wheel. This is fine when you are upright because the extra load is normal to the road surface and you are getting the maximum traction benefit. When you are not perfectly upright though this means you are asking your tire to absorb a cornering force as well as a braking force. Since the load is not normal to the road surface you get some increase in traction, but the lateral component adds to the traction requirement. This added to the fact that your braking is also using available traction means that you're going to go over budget pretty quick...

But still, understanding this and actually putting it into practice aren't even related. All you need to do is what has already been mentioned. Practice practice practice....

[FJ_Hooligan]

However, I seriously doubt that most riders are good enough to handle "one finger" braking power in a panic situation. 

It's not a matter of being "good enough" it is simply a matter of practice. You practice it often enough and it becomes the panic reaction.

Noel

Which I'm willing to bet no one does nearly frequent enough. 

If I had to summarize my thoughts on this it would be the better brakes you have, the better at using them you need to be.

[fintip]

I do random hard stops when coming up to neighborhood stop signs at times. I frequently surprise myself with how much before the stop sign I can stop.

Do them! I had several scary moments on this last trip (gravel at the apex coming in a little hot, curve was deceitful, etc.), and while I wasn't ever so hot that I couldn't recover, part of being able to recover was not grabbing a fistfull of brakes. I really did, even in a white knuckle moment, carefully grab only the appropriate amount.

However, worth noting, a smaller diameter master cylinder piston is technically a 'weaker' brake item, in that it pushes less fluid... Giving you a slower application. It's one finger because the power is spread out over a longer distance, pushing less fluid per distance traveled, thus less work per distance traveled. A 'harder' to pull lever would act *more* suddenly, and give you substantially less 'feel' in important moments.

Once you've felt that, you definitely feel its lack. Can't wait to put that radial master on my bike. I'm sure the blue spots will be nice, but it's the master cylinder that I will really feel. The brakes on the FJ are adequate, but an upgraded lever truly is an amazing feeling.

[ccsct203]

Radial Master, Stainless steel lines and Blue dots made a world of difference

[skymasteres]

I do random hard stops when coming up to neighborhood stop signs at times. I frequently surprise myself with how much before the stop sign I can stop.

Do them! I had several scary moments on this last trip (gravel at the apex coming in a little hot, curve was deceitful, etc.), and while I wasn't ever so hot that I couldn't recover, part of being able to recover was not grabbing a fistfull of brakes. I really did, even in a white knuckle moment, carefully grab only the appropriate amount.

However, worth noting, a smaller diameter master cylinder piston is technically a 'weaker' brake item, in that it pushes less fluid... Giving you a slower application. It's one finger because the power is spread out over a longer distance, pushing less fluid per distance traveled, thus less work per distance traveled. A 'harder' to pull lever would act *more* suddenly, and give you substantially less 'feel' in important moments.

Once you've felt that, you definitely feel its lack. Can't wait to put that radial master on my bike. I'm sure the blue spots will be nice, but it's the master cylinder that I will really feel. The brakes on the FJ are adequate, but an upgraded lever truly is an amazing feeling.

I have been doing quite a lot of practicing with the brakes. I can tell you a few things without spoiling my update. The FJ's brakes are good with the R1 calipers and pads, but the wave rotors need some help. I need to see if I can get a better set of stock style rotors because I think they provide more stopping power than the wave rotors.

[FJscott]

I agree with you mike regarding the wave rotors.when I first put them on my 92 at the same time I did blue dots and EBC HH sintered pads. Brake feel was woody, chunky with little feel. Since putting a Gixxer front wheel with stock rotor the chunky feel went away...same calipers and pads.

Scott

[skymasteres]

This changed the region of the "still" air behind the windscreen slightly, but I think I would have needed to make the slot bigger and install some ducting behind it to direct the airflow along the backside of the windscreen.

Which way did it move the air pocket?   

I've got a Targa +2 screen on my '89 that I've considered slotting and trimming in just that way for a long time now.

I've given thought to the same idea too but with something in front (standing off the screen a bit) of the slot to deflect the direct air flow through it. The BMW screens that work well seem to do so because (I think) they are not sealed at the bottom allowing air in to equalize the pressure behind it.
Like not a lib, I have thought much about this but never broken out the tools.

Mike, keep us informed of your progress and findings, this is an interesting project.

Noel

Okay, well I'm back. Almost a month of time has passed since I have given any meaningful updates so I'll try to bring you guys up to speed as quickly as I can. There was just SOOO much done before the rally.

The air pocket that I have not is very dependent on the speed that I am traveling at. At cruising speed on the highway the pocket of protected space covers my chest, but stops just short of the top of my shoulders leaving my helmet in undisturbed air.  I really like it this way because it gives me lots of airflow around my body at low speeds and, if I get going too fast, I have to start hanging on harder and slow it down.

There are upgrades galore going on with this poor Franken bike.  The funny thing is, I can't seem to do anything with it without finding something that needs to be "fixed" Case in point, the exhaust pipe header flanges. The dang things are made out of stamped steel and they bend something awful. 

The problem had been identified, now for the fix. The nice thing about having scrap around is you're almost always able to repurpose something to make it work.

In this case it was a piece of 1/2" x 1/8" steel that I cut a whole bunch of braces out of.



Then just put a bend in them and weld the on. Simple right? Well the pain in the rear problem that I had to solve first was how to unbend the flanges so I could weld the braces on. I ended up using a couple of impact sockets and a punch to accomplish the task.



After that was done it was a simple matter to weld them in place. And presto, no more bending of the flanges, EVER.

One set up to be tacked in place and another fully welded.  The really cool thing here is, with these things welded to the brackets, I don't have to worry about them bending when they get hot and allowing one of my precious allen head nuts to back off and get lost. Plus it makes for MUCH more accurate torque readings as the flanges no longer bend under the required torque.



Of course there is always fun with trying out new toys. I got my bearings for my tire balancer rod and I decided to see if it worked. Of course, since I wasn't changing my rear tire, I figured I'd just check the balance.  (And yes, that's a new set Bridgestone BT023GT's waiting to go on)



The cool thing is the paddock stand that I bought from harbor freight now doubles as my tire balancing rig. 

Of course I know that the tire was basically done at 3750 miles, but I figured I should be able to get one more run out of it. And that really didn't happen. I got the crest portion done, but I bailed out short of Mulholland because the cords were showing.



So after limping home I had 4000 miles on a continental motion tire. And it was well and truly shot.



Of course having a center stand on the bike makes things like changing tires infinitely easier.



I also had this notion that if I balanced the wheel and sprocket carrier alone that it would make the tire balancing job easier.  Well this is not an effective use of time. There really isn't that much imbalance caused by the carrier and sprocket mechanism. Plus the weight is so much closer to the hub

And balancing the wheel without the tire just causes more problems. I feel like the weight that I added to neutralize the wheel balance just removes the chance of it helping the rubber when I put the weights on. That and the fact that I ended up with three 1/4 oz weights almost 120 degrees apart on the rim.





If you are going to use tire spoons on the wheel I highly recommend motion pro rim protectors. They are SO much tougher than the knock offs and do a great job of protecting the rim. The dang things will take a heck of a pry load and not pinch through. (The one you see kind of wedged in there oddly is one of the knock offs. It didn't last one tire change)



With all of this rally prep it was time to get the brakes upgraded. I have had these Gold Dots FOREVER (over two years) just waiting for the right time to be put on the bike. It's kind of a good thing that I'm such a nut about making one change at a time and seeing what the result is. Keeps me from doing everything all at once and feeds the modittus fix at a reasonable pace.

With the Gold Dots, and sintered HH pads the amount of braking available from the front wheel is simply incredible. I'm still running the stock master with stainless steel lines and, while the lever is very firm, it has excellent feedback. I am actually to the point where I can apply the brakes progressively and control the rate at which the fork bottoms out in a sudden stop. (No more smacking the brake line splitter banjo bolt against the fork brace)



An interesting thing to note with the gold dots over the stock calipers is the weight difference. The stock calipers were coming in at 1195.2g with old pads that were paper thin.





The new ones were 907.9g with fresh pads. 




The cool thing about that is there's a 287.3g per side or 574.6g total weight reduction on the front end with the R-1 calipers. That's pretty huge and completely offsets the weight of the fork brace that I added.  (And yes, I drained the brake fluid from the stock caliper before I weighed it.)

Well that brings me a little further up to speed, but not nearly there yet. So, now I have the upgraded brakes. , and I'm telling you, the stopping power of the sintered pads is impressive.

[skymasteres]

I agree with you mike regarding the wave rotors.when I first put them on my 92 at the same time I did blue dots and EBC HH sintered pads. Brake feel was woody, chunky with little feel. Since putting a Gixxer front wheel with stock rotor the chunky feel went away...same calipers and pads.

Scott

Sometimes it's nice to get feedback too.  Makes me more confident in my observations.

[ribbert]

I have been doing quite a lot of practicing with the brakes. I can tell you a few things without spoiling my update. The FJ's brakes are good with the R1 calipers and pads, but the wave rotors need some help. I need to see if I can get a better set of stock style rotors because I think they provide more stopping power than the wave rotors.

Mike, whose wave rotors are they? (other than yours)

Noel

[skymasteres]

I have been doing quite a lot of practicing with the brakes. I can tell you a few things without spoiling my update. The FJ's brakes are good with the R1 calipers and pads, but the wave rotors need some help. I need to see if I can get a better set of stock style rotors because I think they provide more stopping power than the wave rotors.

Mike, whose wave rotors are they? (other than yours)

Noel

Noel I got them off of eBay. Not quite sure the make, but they are knock offs from china. I'll tell you this though, the FJ is too dang heavy to do max power max braking riding. I totally smoked a set of pads and blued the rotors before I wore out the front tire.  Riding with Mark "FJ Monkey" has been a great booni to my riding. (He has a very smooth style that works incredibly well for these heavy bikes. That and as long as you don't suddely load a tire, it's impresssive how much load they can take)

[ribbert]

I have been doing quite a lot of practicing with the brakes. I can tell you a few things without spoiling my update. The FJ's brakes are good with the R1 calipers and pads, but the wave rotors need some help. I need to see if I can get a better set of stock style rotors because I think they provide more stopping power than the wave rotors.

Mike, whose wave rotors are they? (other than yours)

Noel

Noel I got them off of eBay. Not quite sure the make, but they are knock offs from china. I'll tell you this though, the FJ is too dang heavy to do max power max braking riding. I totally smoked a set of pads and blued the rotors before I wore out the front tire.  Riding with Mark "FJ Monkey" has been a great booni to my riding. (He has a very smooth style that works incredibly well for these heavy bikes. That and as long as you don't suddely load a tire, it's impresssive how much load they can take)

Mike, the chances are high that your rotors are the same ones many of us use, Arashi, as they are the ones most commonly sold by vendors on eBay.

Are you using EBC HH pads? If not, you won't be getting the best possible braking. The pads are the grippiest out there and offer great braking and good feel.
Hard pads will discolour your rotors very quickly. I have the combination above and can only get them hot enough to discolour with a crash stop from max speed to stopped. I can't imagine getting them that hot cycling them between acceleration and braking on the road.

The exhilaration of rapid acceleration, the thrill and satisfaction of getting a corner just right at speed and the buzz of hard braking are part of what makes riding fun but emulating race track pace on the road is, in my opinion, not the holy grail of hard road riding for many reasons. 

MotoGP riders that overtake under brakes into a corner are frequently not the first one out of it, they wash off too much speed or fail to make the corner because even they find it difficult to judge.
Trying to arrive at the perfect entry point, at the perfect speed while under maximum brakes even eludes them sometimes and they are going through the same corners repeatedly and with braking markers and it's their day job.

IMO, the smooth, fast rider gets there first and has the most fun rather than the bloke grabbing gob fulls of brake and throttle and wrestling his bike all over the place.

I don't know why you have identified the rotors as the under performing component but the Arashi's and EBC HH pads should give you all the two finger braking you need for hard road riding with a reasonable life expectancy.

I must admit there are a few regular (ridden 500+ times) roads I ride at "race pace" in short bursts if the conditions and my mind are right but the pace is unsustainable for any length of time and I always feel I have used up a large chunk of my luck for the day getting away with it and promise myself I won't do it again, until the next time.

If, as you say, the goal Is to ride in a manner where you alternate between having the throttle cracked wide open and maximum braking, on public roads, you will fall off and run wide and one day you will run out of clear spaces to do it in. The pendulum increasingly swinging from skill to luck.

A well set up FJ can get throught the twisties at a surprisingly fast pace but it's not a race bike and the fun factor is relative to the bike you are riding.

Take a leaf from Marks book with the "smooth and fast" technique, you'll get there quicker and have more fun......and live to ride another day!

Noel

Usual disclaimer

[skymasteres]

Noel, you're probably right about the rotors being the Arashi's. As for pads, I started out with carbon pads on the front (R-1 pads as I'm running the Gold Dots).  Those lasted about 500 miles before I started to graze metal. I had a set of EBC HH+ waiting to go on and this is what I blued my rotors with. (Well when I took the pads off they the metal backing plates were all sorts of discolored as well.)

While I will say that the grip and performance of the brakes was PHENOMIAL with this setup, I feel that it was at the expense of longevity. You're right. The lever feel with this setup is amazing, and it's an awesome thing to have the ability to "drop out of warp" at the squeeze of a finger. Though you really do start to push the front tire when you start using that power in a turn and doing that scares me. I think that the standard cross drilled rotor would provide better brake life with its greater surface area available to the pad. That all being said, I feel that it's a moot point for the kind of riding that I'm doing. The difference between the braking performance of the Arashi and stock rotors would be insignificant in all but the most demanding circumstances.

I'm not sure what kind of riding you have been doing, and it's so damn to keep it from turning into a who rides harder pissing contest. All I can say is, I'm tired of it man. I don't care if you ride your bike harder than I do. I don't care if you "can't imagine getting them that hot cycling them  between acceleration and braking on the road" All I care about is enjoying my bike, honing my abilities, keeping an open mind so I can learn as much as possible, and helping other riders whenever I can.

But I digress. Back to the brakes. All I can say is that the parts don't lie. The metal backing plates for the pads and the rotors were totally discolored. The pads with that rainbow tempering that you get in hot metal and the rotors just blued. You can ask the Monkey, the suckers were fried. If it helps your disbelief I weigh 225#s before I put my gear on, so I'm on the heavier side for FJ riders. (Though velocity plays a bigger part in the energy equation) I think a bigger part of the brake heating issue was taking turns hard back to back to back on the crest when you are in third and four gear, hitting full throttle, and using the brakes hard enough that they don't have time to cool between turns.

Noel, when you wrote this,

"If, as you say, the goal Is to ride in a manner where you alternate between having the throttle cracked wide open and maximum braking, on public roads, you will fall off and run wide and one day you will run out of clear spaces to do it in. The pendulum increasingly swinging from skill to luck."

I'm not sure if you read my post, where I described riding with Mark being good for me.

Especially when you closed with this:

Take a leaf from Marks book with the "smooth and fast" technique, you'll get there quicker and have more fun......and live to ride another day!

I totally agree with your sentiment

"A well set up FJ can get through the twisties at a surprisingly fast pace but it's not a race bike and the fun factor is relative to the bike you are riding."

I would define a "Well set up FJ" as, the FJ that you are most comfortable with and has become an extension of your being while on the road. The one thing that switching back and forth between beauty and beast is teaching me is how much about riding is up to the rider. Yes, once you get into max performance the differences start opening up wide but, the majority of the performance envelope is shared.

I have been having a blast "taking it easy" on familiar roads using that very "smooth is fast" riding style that works so very well for the FJ. And like you said, you do sometimes come to that section of road that you have ridden 100+ times and decide to wrap the throttle around. But I find myself doing that a LOT LESS these days.

I'm still working things out with the riding bit. I hadn't really brought it up in the build thread because it wasn't a modd, but I went down with beast +1 pretty hard because I lost situation awareness. The experience has fundamentally altered my attitude toward riding. I'd be more than happy to talk about it with you offline, but I'm trying to keep the build thread more about the bike and what it does than the philosophy personal risk assessment. (Philosophy of oil, mechanical things, and tires I'm fine with)