FJ1346 from ashes to... Well, we'll see...

[skymasteres]

Here is another one for you. Without riding the motorcycle, does anyone know of an objective way to measure the wear on the gear "dogs" to see if you are at risk of having the "2nd gear issue"? The reason I am asking is, I didn't get to ride this motorcycle much due to its suspension being completely shot and with the burnt valve and poor ring seal it was WAY down on power. The point is, riding it to test is out. So now I'm left with measuring it.

Here are some pictures to show what I'm concerned about.


Closer view of one of the dogs:

Well bummer, hows how much I know. That's a picture of the wear on the third gear dogs...
I don't think RPMs gear undercutting will do anything for the input shaft...
Does anyone have a low milage transmission sitting around?

[andyb]

You can undercut any/all gear pairs, and yes, it'll restore their function to better than new.  It does get expensive when you're talking about doing the entire trans though, and there are the upshift side and the downshift side also (though usually only roadracers spend the money to do the entire trans on both sides).

[skymasteres]

You can undercut any/all gear pairs, and yes, it'll restore their function to better than new.  It does get expensive when you're talking about doing the entire trans though, and there are the upshift side and the downshift side also (though usually only roadracers spend the money to do the entire trans on both sides).

I have been mulling that over as I am researching getting gears cut. I do intent to track the machine, at Willow Springs here in Rosamond, periodically to better familiarize myself with riding a high performance motorcycle. That being said I have a tendency to pick up skills fairly quickly. ( Soloed in 10 hours, learned to snowboard in a day, kept up with a guy on a CBR990 using a VFR700 etc.) (Well the guy on the CBR would sprint away from me in the straights...) The point is I do see myself learning to get a lot more out of this motorcycle than my manga, but I don't know where the line is for "Road Racing" operation.

As it stands now I have been running down my options for getting my gears undercut. Here is what I have so far:

RC's Performance: $125 for second both sides, $225 for two gears both sides, and $250-275 for three both sides. (The variance is if I have a gear on a different shaft)

Spears Racing: Will do all five both sides with hard welding if required for $700-800

Fast By Gast:$375 all five gears both sides and maybe some extra if welding is required.

APE Racing: $306 for 4 out of 5 gears, one sided. (They don't include first) Extra if welding is required.

[andyb]

Have Paul at FBG do it.  Highly recommended, great work.  And first NEEDS to be done IMO.

I had FBG do 1st and 2nd for my FJ, may regret not getting them all done.

[racerrad8]

By looking at those prices, there is only one price listed that is probably close to being correct.

I have FBG do the transmissions I sell and I can tell you the price they quoted is cheaper than I pay as a FBG dealer and I have only one shaft done.

Plus, get ready to wait. I send in upwards of 15 transmissions a year and the fastest turn around I have ever had was 4 weeks. I also have multiple units done at one time since they are set up to cut and can cut three at once instead of one at a time.

If you are building a big engine, the low gears should be done and that includes 1st.

I also got your email and I will reply when i get back to the shop on Friday.

Randy - RPM

[fj1289]

Have Paul at FBG do it.  Highly recommended, great work.  And first NEEDS to be done IMO.

I had FBG do 1st and 2nd for my FJ, may regret not getting them all done.

X2!!!

[fj1289]

Have Paul at FBG do it.  Highly recommended, great work.  And first NEEDS to be done IMO.

I had FBG do 1st and 2nd for my FJ, may regret not getting them all done.

X2!!!
I've had a bit of work done at FBG - always been happy with the service work and price. I've never been disappointed with the turn around time, but realize work like this normally takes time.

Don't hit the quote bottom when trying to modify your post 

[skymasteres]

If you are building a big engine, the low gears should be done and that includes 1st.

Randy - RPM

Thanks Randy. Does going out to 82mm (1346cc) count as a "big engine" or is that more of a 1500cc thing? If so I'll get 1st done.

To everybody that rides these beasts and maybe pushese them here and there.

Do you guys really ever experince your FJ poping out of gear on a hard downshift when using the engine to brake? I don't really picture myself really whaleing on the downshifts that hard but if it happens in normal "spirited" riding it might be good to get the downshift sides cut... (Really on the fence about this one)

[andyb]

Thanks Randy. Does going out to 82mm (1346cc) count as a "big engine" or is that more of a 1500cc thing? If so I'll get 1st done.

With the engine relatively stock in my 90, a hard launch from a dead stop could cause first to jump teeth.  Admittedly I was pushing it rather harder than almost any street rider would, but there you go (it was on a dragstrip, and only did it occasionally).

[racerman_27410]

To everybody that rides these beasts and maybe pushese them here and there.

Do you guys really ever experince your FJ poping out of gear on a hard downshift when using the engine to brake? I don't really picture myself really whaleing on the downshifts that hard but if it happens in normal "spirited" riding it might be good to get the downshift sides cut... (Really on the fence about this one)

i think i qualify to answer and yes my transmission is undercut both upshift and downshift..... the much larger displacement is capable of putting quite a load on the transmission.... i would do first, second and third.

my stock engine had the second gear problem and when i took it apart to repair i was totally surprised to find there really wasnt that much wear on either the dogs or windows as compared to the brand new gearset i had already purchased to have on hand for the repair......  the stock gearset was completely serviceable after undercutting.

I never had a problem with it popping out of gear on deceleration but i guess it really depends on how you downshift as to whether this could be a problem or not.   Simple fact is the problem isnt caused so much by the gears themselves but the shift forks bending from bodged shifts.... from the point the shift fork gets bent the dogs and windows dont fully interface and its a downhill slide towards popping out of gear.   The late models have improved shift forks but careless shifting can bend any shift fork to the point it will cause problems.

Once the gears are undercut properly they actually pull together instead of just being held together by the shift fork ... makes for a much stronger interface and IMO well worth the money to have done..... i mean why invest so much money into something and intentionally leave a known failure point intact?

KOokaloo!

[skymasteres]

i think i qualify to answer and yes my transmission is undercut both upshift and downshift..... the much larger displacement is capable of putting quite a load on the transmission.... i would do first, second and third.

my stock engine had the second gear problem and when i took it apart to repair i was totally surprised to find there really wasnt that much wear on either the dogs or windows as compared to the brand new gearset i had already purchased to have on hand for the repair......  the stock gearset was completely serviceable after undercutting.

I never had a problem with it popping out of gear on deceleration but i guess it really depends on how you downshift as to whether this could be a problem or not.   Simple fact is the problem isnt caused so much by the gears themselves but the shift forks bending from bodged shifts.... from the point the shift fork gets bent the dogs and windows dont fully interface and its a downhill slide towards popping out of gear.   The late models have improved shift forks but careless shifting can bend any shift fork to the point it will cause problems.

Once the gears are undercut properly they actually pull together instead of just being held together by the shift fork ... makes for a much stronger interface and IMO well worth the money to have done..... i mean why invest so much money into something and intentionally leave a known failure point intact?

KOokaloo!

Thank you all for your feedback with respect to the gear undercutting. As much as I feel like I would like to send the transmission out to FBG and get the full service done on it, after talking with Randy, I think I am better off just using the local guys and having just the upshift sides of the dogs cut. Plus they'll give me the unassembled gears back so that I can coat them before final assembly.

Here's some more gear pron showing the condition of the dogs.



Here are the transmission shafts ready to be cut.


And since I am getting first cut as well I had to get that into the shop too. (Of course I had already coated it, but that won't be a problem)




An update of sorts, I finally have all of the bearings I need so guess what?.... That's right, back to the garage for yet MORE coatings.
(This is turning into an obsession. I ended up buying a quart of this ceramic lubricant and boy does it go a long way...)
I have definitely reached the point of insanity because all of the little in consequential things are getting slathered in dry film lubricants and I'll maybe see a 1% benefit for all the trouble. Of course it gives me a way to convince myself that I'm making some sort of progress while I wait for the gears (Got told that it'll be a month)


My goodness, I almost forgot. (And you thought I was going to spare you yet more boring details of this build) I finally got my blast cabinet under control with respect to the ESD issue.
The dang thing kept shocking me every time I would try to blast bearings. At first I thought it was a grounding issue. I had just rewired my outlet box to provide 240v and 120v AC on a three connector cable so that eliminated the ground. Figured using the frame of the box which was grounded was enough. (Apparently not) Went out to Lowes and picked up an 8' copper clad grounding spike and drive that into the ground. (The hard packed caliche clay out here in the desert made that a real trip) STILL didn't solve the problem. Turned out it was a heck of a lot more simple than I thought.



I had the cabinet grounded. I had the gun grounded. But I didn't have the PART grounded. When I was holding it in my hand I was getting shocked.



After I attached a ground wire to the bearings I stopped getting shocked.

Here are the bearings ready to be coated:



Having the coating applied:



And ready for curing:



Thanks again for the help and stay tuned for the next episode of "What's getting coated"...

[racerrad8]

Thank you all for your feedback with respect to the gear undercutting. As much as I feel like I would like to send the transmission out to FBG and get the full service done on it, after talking with Randy, I think I am better off just using the local guys and having just the upshift sides of the dogs cut.

I just want to clarify the above quote.

I did not recommend the use of any specific transmission cutting company. Just as I stated below, I believe there is only one true price there that is all inclusive for doing the complete transmission, all five speeds with both sides of the cogs listed in this thread. The decision to use the "local" shop was solely a personal one, and not recommended by me.

By looking at those prices, there is only one price listed that is probably close to being correct.

I have FBG undercut the transmissions I sell and I can tell you the price they quoted is cheaper than I pay as a FBG dealer and I have only one shaft done. Also based on all but one price welding is extra. Well every trans I have ever sent in had to be welded, so the quoted prices are based on getting the product in the door.

Plus, get ready to wait. I send in upwards of 15 transmissions a year and the fastest turn around I have ever had was 4 weeks. I also have multiple units done at one time since they are set up to cut and can cut three at once instead of one at a time.

If you are building a big engine, the low gears should be done and that includes 1st.

I also got your email and I will reply when i get back to the shop on Friday.

Randy - RPM

I am a FBG dealer and inquired with the owner Paul Gast about the pricing noted in this thread and it was confirmed that dealer pricing would be extended based on "active" military service proof. The price quote by FBG is strictly for undercutting of the gears only. No welding which I also addressed in the above quote.

I stock the undercut FJ transmission with both sides of 1st, 2nd & 3rd gears completed. This includes the welding of the cogs before the under cutting. The reason I send in multiple shafts at a time is so they do not have to set-up for just one and can cut three shafts without having to set-up for a different version.

The reason I stock this item is because of the long turn around times. In the response I received back from Paul he said, they were 6-8 weeks out on trans cutting which I have found to be the "normal" turn around time when I send in my transmissions for stock.

I just wanted to clarify that I am a Fast by Gast authorized dealer, supplying undercut transmissions for the Yamaha FJ and have not recommended any other vendor.

Randy - RPM

[skymasteres]

Good grief. That should keep the lawyers happy. 

Yeah, Randy didn't steer me away from FBG. That's for sure. Patrick and Paul were both extremely professional and knowledgeable. I just decided that since I am doing something well outside of the norm to go with the local guys so that I can get the transmission put back together. (That and I'd save myself a lot of shipping both ways) It's not that I didn't want to use FBG, it's just that I felt I was better off staying local. APE is right down the street from me and it's not like there are numbers for them to grind off on the transmission...

[skymasteres]

And we're back! I know it's getting old and everyone is getting tired of seeing the parts... But just in case you aren't, there's more.  Up for coating today are the camshafts, cam gears, piston pin bores, and shift drum. I missed doing the piston pin bores the first time around and figured it would be a good idea since it's an aluminum bore with a tool steel pin riding in it.
Here are the cam shafts. I got these used so there is minor scoring on the journal bearings but, since I am adding the ceramic lubricant, I am not worried about it.
Here are the cam gears


And the camshafts themselves


The thing that I found pretty neat is just how much material is added when they change the stock profile of the cam lobes.

All masked and ready for blasting


Here is everything getting etched. Interesting note, the camshafts are hollow with oil holes drilled in some of the bearing surfaces. You'll want to make sure that you seal these off before doing any type of blasting so that you don't end up with grit where you don't want it. (Like inside a grand new engine...) I used a candle to drip wax into these holes to seal them. It keeps the grit out, and disappears when I bake the coating on.


Here are the pistons all masked up to get the pin bores coated. The dang things there a pain in the rear to get all taped up to that I didn't blast or spray where I didn't want to...

Another round of curing in the oven


So, I pursued the suggestion that I lighten my shift drum. After looking it over and hypothesizing a little I made a guess that using a ¼" drill bit would provide the largest practical hole size to use in lightening the drum. This would allow for two rows of holes depending on where they are.

Here is a shot of the almost initial weight of the drum. (I got carried away and drilled a hole before weighing it)


About halfway through this process I ended up burning out the motor in my drill press. It's never a good thing when it suddenly slows down, "pops", then bursts into flames. Funny thing is it was listed as a 1/3 HP motor but I doubt it.  Since it was getting warm when I used it to hone out the air compressor's cylinders I added a fan to blow air across the motor. This apparently wasn't enough.

(You can just barely see the residual smoke in this picture after I extinguished the flames using compressed air)

After I ordered and new motor and it showed up I was shocked to see the size difference between this made in china 1/3hp 9 amp motor, and it's 1/3hp 11 amp replacement. I think it might have to do with the fact that I made sure to get a motor with a 1.25 service factor to handle more abusive treatment...(Pic later)
So, back in business and working on drilling the crap out of this thing. I started out with a center punch and laid out divots where I figured I wanted the holes to be. Many of the spots are pinged twice because I didn't get it right with the first stroke.


Here you can see the progress. It is becoming increasingly obvious that I was a little optimistic on my hole spacing and backed off in favor of structural integrity. (i.e. I chickened out)


The finished product. Well nearly finished anyway. I want to go back and chamfer the edges of the holes. The cool thing is I managed an almost exactly 2oz weight reduction (56.4g). I know it doesn't sound like much, but it felt significant as I held the drum by its bearing and spun it with my fingers during various stages of the lightening process. (It went from being somewhat balanced, to horrible imbalanced, to balanced pretty darn well...)


I'm still eagerly awaiting getting my gears back from APE, but in the mean time I still have plenty to do. 

[racerrad8]

Interesting note, the camshafts are hollow with oil holes drilled in some of the bearing surfaces. You'll want to make sure that you seal these off before doing any type of blasting so that you don't end up with grit where you don't want it. (Like inside a grand new engine...)

You really should remove the plugs and clean the internal portion of the cams. When I receive back the cams I have Mega-Cycle grind for me, they remove the plugs and replace them with allen head plugs.

You can find the stock plugs here; Camshaft Plug

If they did not remove the plugs when the cams were welded and ground, they need to be cleaned. Well, they need to be cleaned even if they weren't ground. I remove all the plugs from cams I put into a rebuild engine and clean them with a barrel brush.

Randy - RPM

PS. - You probably should have coated the cam thrust flange as well as the journals.