Splitting the cases

[Old Rider]

Old Rider...
1. WD40 is a lousy honing oil. Next time, try using ATF (any cheap brand will do.)
2. Those rigid stone hones are ok, but the Flex-Hone (bottle brush) style is much better. Expensive though.
3. Your crosshatch pattern looks pretty good. Honest, it's not all that critical; something close to 45-degrees is fine. There is a bit of a learned technique for honing a cylinder by hand; helps if you have seen someone do it. Having done 100's of cylinders, I've got a rhythm... balancing drill motor speed vs. stroking speed. And it's really a 2-man job; one runs the drill while the other squirts the ATF (I use a large pump type oil can.) You want to flood the cylinder while you're honing. Do this inside a cardboard box to catch the mess.
4. That's not a "groove" at the top of the cylinder; it's a ridge. That is the original bore where piston rings never go. There are special tools (ridge reamer) that cut away that ridge but it's really not needed in your case. Below that ridge where the true wear takes place. If there is a significant ridge, that means that the cylinder is worn.
5. As you have discovered, it's not a good idea to clean the cylinder with water. Use lacquer thinner (gasoline if you're broke) and white paper towels. Scrub out the cylinder and oil it.
6. To get the rust out of your cylinders, staple some maroon scotchbrite to a wooden dowel. Chuck up in your drill and scrub out the rust. Or just lightly hone it again. Clean with lacquer thinner/oil.
Bill

Hi Bill God to know there are more skilled people following my rebuild thread so i hopefully  dont make this rebuild a highway to hell  
1 i did read something about atf oil as honing oil i had a big can of wd40 so i used that.
2 i was surpriced how fast the stones was worned down they are now worn out after just about 3 minutes in each cylinder  About the flexhone bottlebrush: if the cylinder have
some ovalshape doesent the flexhone just follow that eggshape and not correct them like a rigid stone would?
3 ok but how to know if the surface is to rugh im thinking i mayby have to go over with finer grit ?
4 god to know also when i inserted new pistonrings in cylinders and measured endgap they all measure 0.20 mm wich is the smallest in spec opening .It shows that the cylinder is very little worn i think.
5 i read several places that it had to be washed with both solvent and then washed with soapywater and brush to be sure the abrasive is gone .I was surpriced how fast the cylinders rusted it was like i washed them then turned away for 2 minutes to clean the bucket i used then i turned back to take a look  they where brown with rust already
6 okat but doesent the scotch brite destroy the honepattern ? i think i just hone a little more mayby?

[racerrad8]

1 i did read something about atf oil as honing oil i had a big can of wd40 so i used that. Dont skimp now...
2 i was surpriced how fast the stones was worned down they are now worn out after just about 3 minutes in each cylinder.  About the flexhone bottlebrush: if the cylinder have
some ovalshape doesent the flexhone just follow that eggshape and not correct them like a rigid stone would? Yes, flex hones are great for breaking the glaze, but not for truing the bores.
3 ok but how to know if the surface is to rugh im thinking i mayby have to go over with finer grit ? Yes
4 god to know also when i inserted new pistonrings in cylinders and measured endgap they all measure 0.20 mm wich is the smallest in spec opening .It shows that the cylinder is very little worn i think.
5 i read several places that it had to be washed with both solvent and then washed with soapywater and brush to be sure the abrasive is gone .I was surpriced how fast the cylinders rusted it was like i washed them then turned away for 2 minutes to clean the bucket i used then i turned back to take a look  they where brown with rust already. Dry and clean the cylinder first, the bucket can wait (see below)
6 okat but doesent the scotch brite destroy the honepattern ? i think i just hone a little more mayby?

You have done everything up to this point very methodically and thoroughly, please don't stop now. I have noted many micrometers and gauges in your posts. You really need a dial bore gauge to ensure you have the proper bore diameter.

There are many cheap options that work great for light use, here is one example: 50-160mm Bore Gauge

As Bill already mentioned, the groove at the top of the cylinder you are seeing is the transition point for the top ring at the TDC rock of the piston. That really needs to be gone, but you cannot accomplish this properly with the flex hone you are using. You need to be honing with a rigid stone hone. In my experience there is not a ridge there that a ridge reamer can remove without making the upper cylinder excessively oversize.

The rigid hone does a couple of things when honing your cylinder.
1) It keeps the stones square and reduces cylinder taper compared to a center pivot hone you used.
2) The hone will remove material from the bore evenly to remove that upper groove and keep the same bore diameter during the honing process.
3) There is a wiper stone that cleans the hone grit away from the next stone as it rotates. That is important so the next stone doesn't run over the stone material and grind it into the bore causing an unwanted finish.

Again, here is cheap option of a rigid hone: 62 to 88mm Honing Machine + 4 Set of Honing

Now, once you get the upper grooves out of the bores, you need to finish hone. Yes, the 280 you used is too course, plus the hone was running over its own grit with the poorest choice for honing lubricant. So, your bore finish is going to have deep grooves making the finish even more course.

I use this honing oil: Cylinder Hone Oil

Now, onto washing cylinders that is almost like asking what oil to use....

I wash all of my cylinders in Hot, really hot water and heavy detergent soap. I use a series of brushes from course to fine and well as a couple of clothes. I was told by an old time engine builder more than 30 years ago, solvents, usually used cold will clean the surface but embed the hone oil/grit deep in the cross hatch. The second thing with solvent, if you are going to use it, it must be clean. If the solvent is contaminated with other oils, then you are not going to get everything clean.

When I get done washing the cylinders, they do have a light surface rust after blowing them dry. I then use ATF on lint free, white disposable towels to wipe the cylinders. I wipe them using new towels after every wipe through until I get no color other than the red of the ATF on the towel. I then put a heavy coat of ATF on the bores, put the cylinder in a plastic bag with desiccant packs to absorb moisture until the cylinder is ready to be installed.

Back to your cylinders, once you get them measured at the largest diameter (the groove) you will know if you are able to use the stock pistons or need to step up to over-sized pistons & rings.

Keep up the good work and the detailed posting of the build, you are doing great.

Randy - RPM

[X-Ray]

This is a fascinating work in progress that I am following with great interest. I won't ever be pulling down my FJ engines to do this sort of work, ( I'll leave that to the experts ), but watching the steps involved helps me understand the process a lot more,

[Old Rider]

 Randy thanks for helping with your professional advice
When i now understand a little better about the ridge on top of the cylinders i realice that there is more work to
do on them and get the cylinders more accurate measured .When i took a closer look at the ridge there is 2 of them from both
ring 1 and 2.I read some more about the ridge and if its deep it can brake the new piston ring and ringland when new
rings is installed
Im hoping that i get away with only a hone and reuse the old pistons ,but that's mayby too optimistic now.To bad i
already have bought new pistonrings..
Now im trying to decide  if i shall go to a engineworkshop to get them do the hone/bore job or if i buy more tools
and do it my self.
I have to find out how much the job is going to cost.First thing now im going to buy a dialbore gauge to get more
accurate
measurement of the piston to wall clearances and cylinders taper and oval shape.If the cylinders are totally out
of spec to big inside the ridgearea so i have to do a rebore and new pistons i think that is going to be so
expensive that its better to buy a finished
big block kit with pistons and pistonrings included.
Thanks for many good advice

[Old Rider]

This is a fascinating work in progress that I am following with great interest. I won't ever be pulling down my FJ engines to do this sort of work, ( I'll leave that to the experts ), but watching the steps involved helps me understand the process a lot more,

Hi X-Ray
Good to hear that you are interested in the tread.I guess the purpose of the tread is that i can get help and advice
from experts so the chances i dont screw up totally increases .At some point I was thinking the tread was boring
with no interests, but im sure someone can get something useful out of it.

[ribbert]

At this stage, I would recommend taking the barrels to an automotive machine shop, there is a special tool for removing the ridge. I would get them to do that and measure the cylinders while they're at it. They will not charge you much for the job and it saves you buying more tools you'll never use again. The measuring will only take a few minutes and you can take advantage of their experience to get an opinion on re using your pistons. It also eliminates the risk of doing some unintended damage while trying to selectively remove the ridge with the hone.
I know you like doing it all yourself but this one job I think is better sent out.

One of the hallmarks of a great tradesman is knowing at what point a job is better done by someone else, someone who is expert in that particular area and someone specifically tooled up for it.

I'll leave you with the forum experts for further commentary.

Noel

[Old Rider]

At this stage, I would recommend taking the barrels to an automotive machine shop, there is a special tool for removing the ridge. I would get them to do that and measure the cylinders while they're at it. They will not charge you much for the job and it saves you buying more tools you'll never use again. The measuring will only take a few minutes and you can take advantage of their experience to get an opinion on re using your pistons. It also eliminates the risk of doing some unintended damage while trying to selectively remove the ridge with the hone.
I know you like doing it all yourself but this one job I think is better sent out.

One of the hallmarks of a great tradesman is knowing at what point a job is better done by someone else, someone who is expert in that particular area and someone specifically tooled up for it.

I'll leave you with the forum experts for further commentary.

Noel

Noel thanks for your advice i know you are in the top leauge mechanic department so good to know you are watching.
and thanks for the tip you gave earlier about pouring the gasoline into the ports when checking valves for leaks.
If I had not tested that and only done it by testing with fluid into combustionchamber like i did first i would have
had leaky valves when reasebly the head
I guess your right about letting a professional automotive shop take care of the cylinders now,but
first im going to buy the boregauge tool since it is cheap  and check a little what the diameter  is inside the
ridge zone if its way out i know if i have to rebore

[Mark Olson]

+1 on checking your cylinder taper and out of round.. you have gone so far into this rebuild it would be a shame it ended up a oil burner.

[racerrad8]

At this stage, I would recommend taking the barrels to an automotive machine shop, there is a special tool for removing the ridge. I would get them to do that and measure the cylinders while they're at it. They will not charge you much for the job and it saves you buying more tools you'll never use again. The measuring will only take a few minutes and you can take advantage of their experience to get an opinion on re using your pistons. It also eliminates the risk of doing some unintended damage while trying to selectively remove the ridge with the hone.
I know you like doing it all yourself but this one job I think is better sent out.

One of the hallmarks of a great tradesman is knowing at what point a job is better done by someone else, someone who is expert in that particular area and someone specifically tooled up for it.

I'll leave you with the forum experts for further commentary.

Noel

+1

Frankly, I only hone single cylinder repairs anymore. For complete engine builds, the machine shop bores the cylinder prior to finish honing. They also deck the head gasket surface when doing the work.

The use of the boring bar, automatic cylinder hone and surfacing machine provide a more consistent job.

Randy - RPM

[Old Rider]

Update
Have not done much waiting on the boredial gauge i ordered . Have started benchsynking the valves  but not finished with that job because i needed some more halfsize  shims .I have ordered the shims from RPM they shipped them very fast as usual ,but the postage here i Norway is slow.

I have found one interesting thing about different brands of plastigauge tough that i want to share.
Earlier i replaced all bearingshells and measured all oilclearances on camshaftjournals- crankshaft journals and conectingrod journals. I have used  green plastigage The measurements showed that the oilclearances where close to the limit of worn out  especially the 4 connecting rod journals which was about 0.036mm to 0.038mm (spec is 0.017 to 0.040mm ) .
since the measurements was so close to worn out limit   i was thinking i had to buy another complete set bearingshells that was thicker (undersized )  to get more in the middle of the range of specs ,but then i knew there was another brand plastigauge  that i havent used and measured in the range i needed .It is red in color britishmade and measures in range from 0.025mm to 0.175mm .I have another set of red plastigauge named sealed power but that can not be used because the range of that is 0.051mm to 0.152mm
Anyway i tough i give it a try before buying a new set thicker bearingshells so I ordered the red Britishmade plastigauge 0.025-0.175mm and received it yesterday.
I measured the nr 4 connecting rod journal and was happy to see that the measurement was much better than with the green plastigauge (se pick) i used earlier.I think the measure now is more like 0.028 to 0.030mm instead of 0.037mm i got with green  plastigauge spec is 0.017mm to 0.40mm .
I think the latest red plastigauge i used is more accurate than the green because it gets a wider crushed area that is easier to measure with the paperruler.
I'm not going to remeasure the other journals as  they most likely is better in spec when measured with the latest red plastigauge than with the green plasigage i used earlier.

[Old Rider]

update on cylhead
i have now bench shimmed the valves. Thanks to Randy for the advice doing that.At first i did not see the point with
benchshimming thinking it was not so important  , but then i discovered that i needed 9 new shims even i had 8 shims
extra .If i had waited with the valveadjustment until i had the engine back in the bike i had to wait a couple of
weeks to get the shims and if there had been more serious stuff going on like running out of shim size the valves
would had to be taken out again including take the head off again and a new headgasket.. the valves would then had
to be  grinded shorter at a professional workshop.
Like Randy mentioned earlier when benchshimming the valves N E V E R  install both cams at the same time.If you do you
will very easy bend some valves!!.
I made a rig of 2 woodplanks dimension 2" x 3" i used long woodscrews in the outer cylinderstud holes and screwed
down into the wood.That is to protect the valves so they dont get bendt when rotating the cam and also protect the
headgasket surface.
I also have for first time used a valve shim bucket tool at first it was a little fiddely get it to work but after
some it worked okay.I have to confess that i earlier used a ziptie down the plughole to hold the valve open to get
the shim out.It works but i have always been a little worried that it may bend the valves.But none of my valves was
bendt when measuring them earlier.The bad thing using a ziptie is that it may srape off carbon deposits from the
valve edge and then that deposit may get jammed in the valve doing bad stuff so im not using the ziptie method any
more.
Also i have done some more with the starterclutch replaced the steelballs and the collar in idlergear.

[Old Rider]

Today i installed the pistonrings and new wristpin circlips on one side.
First i planned to install the rings just by hand by rolling them on .I found out that that is a bad idea and it will ruin the shape of the ring and make scoring marks in the edge of the ringland.The oil rings can be installed by rolling them on it is infact recomended to install oilrings that way,but not the compressionrings.
I had to buy a new pistonring plier from ebay I have one but that can not be used on this pistons.
It is not possible to fit the compression rings wrong as the nr 2 ring is to thick to mount in the number 1 ring grove. However it is possible to forget that the marking on the ring has to point uppwards.
The number 1 ring has no markings so it can be installed both ways.
I tested if i could make a pistonringcompressor to ease intallation of pistons into the barrels.I made it from
clear plastic from bottle and a big ziptie around it.The plan was that all four pistons was going to have the homemade ringcompressor on then just slide like a dream in to the cylinderbores.   that is not going to happend
i did a test on one cylinder se pics and it was no way i could get that piston to go inside the cylinder even it was oiled .I did not want to break anything so stopped trying.I then use a steel pistoncompressor tool and the piston did slide easy in.The problem with using the steel compressor is that it is to high When placed between crankcase and cylinders.
instead will try to install all four pistons one by one into cylinders with one wristpinclip and wristpin half way thru then let them stick out a little so that i can get the conectingrod inside piston and mount the wristpin on other side.
Or i try to cut some steelcompressor sheet into slimmer strips and use ziptie to compress the rings.
Now im waiting get some measuringtools in the post so i can measure the cylinderbores more accurate .
I spoke with a machine shoop yesterday and the price of honing wasent bad ,but he could not guarate that the bore
was going to be to big to use same pistons.I did not have the cylinders with me so he could measure.

[Old Rider]

Today i been fiddling a little with the starterclutch / alternator axle and bearings.
Replaced the oilseal new is brown and new O-ring on the bearing outside.The New O-ring seems thinner than the old.
I have ordered a bearing some time ago not from RPM but another place .When i recieved  the bearing it has wrong partnumber .Its the bearing that is embedded in upper crankcase at the end of the starterclutch axle.I dont know if i can use it have to find out.
I discovered some bad scratches and dent in the oiljetnozzle.It is the innside of the starterchain the toothed side that has hammered the nozzle.
I think that will explain  a little of the bad noises i had.

[Pat Conlon]

Oil jet damage from a starter chain? So that's the cause of that noise in our FJ's?
Starter chain noise is very very common.

Starter chains are gonna stretch...no getting around that, however, I wonder if that oil jet could be "modified" (love that word) to give better clearance ?

Question for Randy: Has Yamaha updated this part? Do the XJR engines use this same oil jet?

[Mark Olson]

on the piston rings I would suggest using a motorcycle specific ring compressor.. saw some on amazon lately.