I have a Dream 2

[giantkiller]

I had figured out what I thought it would take to heat my house with geothermal. I figured about 3-4 ton.

So I got three different estimates for the Geo heating and cooling (well 4 If you count the Water furnace guy $60,000). All three had wildly different ideas for equipment. The first wo of them thought I needed "at least 6 ton for that building". They came back with $45,600 and $45,900.  No way I could even think about affording that. And if I don't do Geo it kinda defeats the purpose of building. So I don't have to worry about bills in the future. So I heard one of the most recommended conventional HVAC guys also does Geo. And he had been doing it for 30 years. I didn't think it had been around that long. I show him my plans. And the first thing he said "hell you can probably cool that whole thing with less than a ton, and  3 ton heating. You will need some kind of back up for when we have -20s". He said he would do a heat loss study and get back to me with the details. I left thinking it should be a lot cheaper since he knew what he was saying and was more in line with what I thought. Both smaller and less complicated than the other two. He called me back a few hours later and said he would use 4ton two stage water to water. Then I wouldn't have to have a backup system. Would run 3ton most of the time. And bump up to 4ton on -20 days. Even less complicated. Woohoo. He called and said he had the estimate all written up. He came back with $45,263. Guess that means I can't do Geo.

[giantkiller]

As a last ditch effort to keep my dream alive. I asked the guy who takes care of HVAC for the plant. 1,890,000 SQ ft. He does HVAC on the side. If he could help me out. He said sure that he had helped 3 others install there own Geo systems.

And so doing it myself. So far he's just got the equipment for me at cost. And once I get it all hooked up. He'll come and start it up. And I'll pay him for that. Had the one guy they all use install the loops for me. I'm at about $22,000. And will get 30% back on taxes.
The estimates for conventional came back from $26,000- 39,000 wtf.

[Tuned forks]

So my understanding of geothermal energy is pulling steam heat from wells.  What is your definition of geothermal energy for your home?

Joe

[FJmonkey]

I think it is more like using the stable thermal temps below to help maintain the same on the surface.

[giantkiller]

So my understanding of geothermal energy is pulling steam heat from wells.  What is your definition of geothermal energy for your home?

Joe

Hey Joe. Geothermal heating. Is different from the energy/ electricity production. From the heat/ steam. I know it's not technically correct calling it geothermal heating. For the residential stuff but that's what they call it.

It's basically a heat pump. That you use either a horizontal loop. Buried Bellow the frost line. 6' min for this area. Or a vertical loop. That carries water to transfer heat. From or to the house. Via the heat pump. But instead of sitting outside trying to pull heat out of the air when it's -20. Or trying to push heat out of the house into 90F outside.  Sits inside out of the elements. Pulling heat out of the average around here 56F ground temperature. To heat the house winter. And pushing the heat out of the house summer. It doesn't have to work as hard. Because difference is less with the constant 56ish ground temperature. So uses less power and lasts longer. The guy that has been installing Geo for 30 years. Said most of the first ones he installed are still using the original heat pumps.

Here's a picture of my loops being installed

[Pat Conlon]

Joe, that's what I also thought based on my region, geothermal = ground source hot water/steam.
We have a lot of geo thermal plants down at the Salton Sea.
The system Dan has,  is what we locally call "Ground Source Heat Pumps"

A quick google search showed me that the term geo thermal is also used for describing Dan's system, something I did not know.

Dan, I'm very proud of you, your planning, ambition, hard work and your tolerance to pain (both knees at the SAME time?)

Heal well amigo, don't push it.....your dream will still be waiting for you.

[Tuned forks]

Now I understand what you're doing.  I work with heat pumps all the time.

Joe

[giantkiller]

Joe, that's what I also thought based on my region, geothermal = ground source hot water/steam.
We have a lot of geo thermal plants down at the Salton Sea.
The system Dan has,  is what we locally call "Ground Source Heat Pumps"

A quick google search showed me that the term geo thermal is also used for describing Dan's system, something I did not know.

Dan, I'm very proud of you, your planning, ambition, hard work and your tolerance to pain (both knees at the SAME time?)

Heal well amigo, don't push it.....your dream will still be waiting for you.

Thanks Pat. I'm going nuts. Had to learn how to watch TV again. That lasted about 2 weeks. I have no idea how people can sit and watch that for more than a couple of hours. I've even run out of stuff to look at on the internet.

[giantkiller]

Well been in the negatives at night and teens(F) during the day. Yesterday was high of -2F so decided to go down and check on the house. And watch lunar eclipse last night. No heat except solar inverter, and small dorm sized refrigerator running. And was still 36F inside house. Just freaks me out. 38 degree minimum difference. From just those 2 sources of heat. Turned on the same mini heater. An hour or so later 48F in the house. -4F outside when I left.
Can't wait to see what it's like to have a house and shop kept at comfortable temps all the time. And not pay anything for heating, cooling, hot water, lights and all. Heck I'll probably leave my 2 stage 80 gallon compressor on all the time just cause I can.

[T Legg]

Get a thousand gallon tank and a compressed air powered generator and store all your excess power as compressed air instead of selling it to the utility

[Pat Conlon]

Get a thousand gallon tank and a compressed air powered generator and store all your excess power as compressed air instead of selling it to the utility

That's interesting Travis, are you aware of any residential systems?

Here's some folks over in Switzerland doing it: http://www.enairys.com/en/products/intro
Here's a write up in the UAE : https://www.thenational.ae/uae/compressed-air-the-battery-of-the-future-1.338460

As a believer in Murphy's Law, the compressed air system sounds to me like having a lot of moving parts to it.

PV system Batteries are getting better and less expensive, it seems like in a 3 year cycle.

[T Legg]

Get a thousand gallon tank and a compressed air powered generator and store all your excess power as compressed air instead of selling it to the utility

That's interesting Travis, are you aware of any residential systems?

As a believer in Murphy's Law, the compressed air system sounds to me like having a lot of moving parts to it.

Actually I was joking.It seems possible but I don't think it would be feasible on that small of scale.with the cost of equipment even if he could recapture enough electricity to be useful I doubt it would be cheaper than buying it.

[T Legg]

Thermal solar collectors are up to 80% efficient in converting the sun's energy to hot water.With an in floor hydronic heating system that could be a nice secondary heating scource.

[giantkiller]

When I get that far. I will look at EV batteries. You can get 16kwh batteries for $2000. Vrs $10,000 for Tesla powerwall 2 13.5kwh.(have to purchase from authorized installer)

[giantkiller]

Pat the enairys system looks quite large. They don't give dimensions.  But looking at the individual components. Would be minimum 10'x8'. Probably larger. For now going to stay with lith batteries. Looks like Toyota and Panasonic are working together on an even better EV battery.

Pat also looks like the geothermal companies in the Salton Sea. Are looking to extract lithium from the Geo wells. Said to be the largest lithium deposit in the world. I think it said $2.5 billion worth.