Certainly this is an ICE forum, and slanted toward recips, but I really have no burning desire to see more of an aging technology that involves a piston (or anything) that goes one way, stops, goes the other way , stops, and repeats. Even with all of their flaws, I can admire the rotary piston engines (such as the WW-1 Le Rhone) where every piece of the engine moves in a perfect circle, and no part of the engine ever reverses direction. In this day, only the electric motors pursue that ideal of motive power now. To me, a two-stroke fuel-injected turbo Le Rhone rotary would be a very interesting piece of hardware - light, powerful, cheap to produce, and efficient on fuel, but I digress.
Exotic materials and machine work far beyond the financial resources of most riders are not things to be admired or duplicated by ordinary people. They are only pricey ideals to be envied. I take no issues with a strong mass-produced bike, available (attainable) to the workaday rider. To me, one-of-a-kind engines with astronomical price tags are very far from the spirit of this forum.
That's my rant, and I'm sticking to it. :biggrin:
Red - ought to get you in touch with Frank (Frank06 on suzukihayabusa.org) - he's been dabbling a "little" in electric conversions: https://www.dragbike.com/lta-electric-street-bike-breaks-200-mph/ (https://www.dragbike.com/lta-electric-street-bike-breaks-200-mph/)
I'm interested in the electrics too! Have two motors picked up on the cheap locally - but not really suitable for the speeds I was hoping to work up to - but would be an awesome replacement for the 250cc scooter motor in the little dune buggy....
Either way - I really appreciate the ingenuity and craftsmanship in all these endeavors!
But, I'm not sure I really want to try a fixed crankshaft/spinning engine case/cylinders in ANYTHING! The torque reaction is a bit too much to deal with! Except for maybe in a tractor ...
Yeah - the cost thing - that slowed my roll on the electrics too! Controllers and batteries (good ones) are pricey!
20 second peak: 335hp/443ft.lbs and continuous rated 134hp/184ft.lbs in a small 63 lb package.
(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/bc5cf8435a73e13c-org-1643642969.jpg?crop=1.00xw:1.00xh;0,0&resize=640:*)
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38940998/koenigsegg-quark-electric-motor/ (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38940998/koenigsegg-quark-electric-motor/)
Batteries just need to catch up.....the first one to 1kWh/kg specific density wins...
So far (2022) we are 1/2 the way there: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/01/220120140724.htm (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/01/220120140724.htm)
Pat - do you know where a few of these might have "fallen off a truck" or shipping container or boat ....
I wonder how many Harbor Freight Bauer tool batteries I'd have to disassemble to make a suitable battery pack .....!
Maybe it is narrow enough to build it into one side of the swingarm and directly drive the wheel hub - look Mom, no chain! (And no parasitic losses either!)
Quote from: fj1289 on March 05, 2022, 10:58:14 PM
Pat - do you know where a few of these might have "fallen off a truck" or shipping container or boat ....
I wonder how many Harbor Freight Bauer tool batteries I'd have to disassemble to make a suitable battery pack .....!
Maybe it is narrow enough to build it into one side of the swingarm and directly drive the wheel hub - look Mom, no chain! (And no parasitic losses either!)
For drag racing that would be great! 63lbs right on the rear wheel... would need one on each side for balance. Lol
Other wise 63lbs is a lot of unsprung weight.
For a car retrofit...Here's a pair of Quark motors with the inverter sandwiched in the middle to replace a complete rear or front drive ICE/trans assembly....670 hp and 811 lb-ft in a package that weighs just 187 pounds, with torque vectoring to boot.
(https://cleantechnica.com/files/2022/02/Terrier-electric-drivetrain.jpg)
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/02/koenigsegg-quark-terrier-bring-big-power-in-small-package-to-electric-cars/
Heck, go all in....use one on the front wheels...and one on the back, for 4 wheel drive....
We've had 120+ years to develop and fine tune ICE.
With EV's, I find it amazing how far we have come in such a short time.
(note to self: buy stock in Koenigsegg)
Crap. Maybe I should scrap the turbo sled motor for the race drivetrane for the smart. Lol. If I can just find one for a couple thousand dollars. :crazy:
Okay, I guess there is real interest in the topic of next-gen motive power. There is great research in progress, and serious players are stepping up.
So I'd like to start a separate topic here, for what can happen when we finally tire of pistons.
Quote from: ribbert on March 05, 2022, 04:35:04 AM
Problem is Red, the flaws were inherent in the design. You say only electric motors have achieved that, what about turbines?
Noel
Ribbert,
Turbines use a
LOT of air, and torque is fairly low. They need an extreme application of gear reduction to power a vehicle, and they wind up into the power band slowly. The exhaust is hot and noisy. Jay Leno has a turbine bike, using a helicopter APU turbine - I think his bike gets ten miles on a tankful of jet fuel. He once melted the front end of the car waiting behind his turbine bike at a traffic light. Ooops . . .
FJ1289,
The quark motor would probably work well enough if located where the transmission sprocket is located normally. Might take one bear of a drive chain, but there is not much power lost in chain drives.
Pat,
I could see that twin-Quark mover as replacing the differential in an ordinary car's solid rear axle, or replacing the transmission in a FWD car. A pair of Lynch motors could certainly move the average commuter smartly enough, in the same way.
Lest we forget, Yamaha now has an interesting candidate in the running. It may be a bit much in a bike, but it is intended for the super-car market. A slightly smaller version would really do the job on a bike. 469 HP:
https://www.rideapart.com/news/501067/yamaha-new-469-horsepower-electric-motor/ (https://www.rideapart.com/news/501067/yamaha-new-469-horsepower-electric-motor/)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 06, 2022, 05:40:09 PMHey Red, if you prefer, from Chris's (fj1289) original post (Interesting "use"of..) I can separate out all the posts about electrics and place them here.....your call.
Pat,
Okay by me, if nobody objects. Thanks. Didn't think my rant would stir so much interest, but interest is a good thing. :pardon:
Quote from: red on March 06, 2022, 03:28:30 PM
....Yamaha now has an interesting candidate in the running. It may be a bit much in a bike, but it is intended for the super-car market. A slightly smaller version would really do the job on a bike. 469 HP:
https://www.rideapart.com/news/501067/yamaha-new-469-horsepower-electric-motor/ (https://www.rideapart.com/news/501067/yamaha-new-469-horsepower-electric-motor/)
Red, do you know the weight of the Yamaha 350kW unit? I couldn't find it....
Yamaha vs Koenigsegg: The Yamaha will be first to market as it looks to be a complete design, for example how will Koenigsegg's motor be cooled? Although the fundamental motor design of the Koenigsegg looks to be superior.
Combining the Axial flux design with the conventional radial flux you get the best of both worlds, small compact light weight package (high rpm) coupled with high torque.
Direct drive means no need for step down gearing or the need for heavier larger rotors to get good torque numbers.
Here's a quote from Koenigsegg:
"This means, when using the Quark in applications such as marine, aircraft, or VTOL, there is no need for a step-down transmission. Instead direct drive can be achieved, as the RPM of the motor is right from the get-go. Small high revving motors can have higher peak power-to-weight ratio, but they need transmissions in most applications in order to get to the desired output rpm and torque, causing energy loss and adding weight and complexity to do the same job. So any benefit in size is lost."
Gotta love those torque and power curves that are not curves....more like a table.
(https://cleantechnica.com/files/2022/02/Quark-Specs.png)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 06, 2022, 06:33:44 PM
Combining the Axial flux design with the conventional radial flux you get the best of both worlds, small compact light weight package (high rpm) coupled with high torque.
For a real performance boost, to get the best energy storage from an either an Axial, or Radial design Pat, you need to include a capacitor.
With that technology, you could actually finish a 1/4 mile sprint before you started it :good2:
Quote from: Millietant on March 06, 2022, 07:58:13 PM
For a real performance boost, to get the best energy storage from an either an Axial, or Radial design Pat, you need to include a capacitor.
With that technology, you could actually finish a 1/4 mile sprint before you started it :good2:
A flux capacitor...hmmmmm, where have I heard that.....?
For top level drag race applications, I wonder how hard it is to consistently control the output at launch and early acceleration? How much does the actual output vary with battery temp, motor temp, charge level, etc?
I also assume these "new tech" motors are AC vice DC? How different are the controllers for AC vice DC? I'll have to dig a bit to find it again, but I was following a DIY controller group for a while. There was discussion of mods or changes for AC control - but don't remember details.
Quote from: fj1289 on March 06, 2022, 08:37:49 PMFor top level drag race applications, I wonder how hard it is to consistently control the output at launch and early acceleration? How much does the actual output vary with battery temp, motor temp, charge level, etc?
I also assume these "new tech" motors are AC vice DC? How different are the controllers for AC vice DC? I'll have to dig a bit to find it again, but I was following a DIY controller group for a while. There was discussion of mods or changes for AC control - but don't remember details.
FJ1289,
I can imagine a traction control set-up for the launch sequence that would give consistent results. With an accelerometer and wheel-spin detection, no human could perform better than the computer, on the launch. You may want wheelie bars, though.
No doubt, the manufacturers will know what you need for speed controllers, for each motor. Go with their recommendations for a start, until you know more about what is needed.
Quote from: red on March 06, 2022, 03:28:30 PM
Ribbert,
Turbines use a LOT of air, and torque is fairly low. They need an extreme application of gear reduction to power a vehicle, and they wind up into the power band slowly. The exhaust is hot and noisy. Jay Leno has a turbine bike, using a helicopter APU turbine - I think his bike gets ten miles on a tankful of jet fuel. He once melted the front end of the car waiting behind his turbine bike at a traffic light. Ooops . . .
Whoa Red! I only mentioned turbines in the context of your claim that
only the electric motor had succeeded in producing a non reciprocating engine. Never for a moment did I suggest they were a suitable candidate for automotive use.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 06, 2022, 08:01:37 PM
A flux capacitor...hmmmmm, where have I heard that.....?
Maybe given some time we'll find out.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on March 07, 2022, 06:11:46 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 06, 2022, 08:01:37 PM
A flux capacitor...hmmmmm, where have I heard that.....?
Maybe given some time we'll find out.
Noel
Yeah, Pat heard about it tomorrow :good2:
:sorry:
Quote from: red on March 06, 2022, 10:07:39 PM
Quote from: fj1289 on March 06, 2022, 08:37:49 PMFor top level drag race applications, I wonder how hard it is to consistently control the output at launch and early acceleration? How much does the actual output vary with battery temp, motor temp, charge level, etc?
I also assume these "new tech" motors are AC vice DC? How different are the controllers for AC vice DC? I'll have to dig a bit to find it again, but I was following a DIY controller group for a while. There was discussion of mods or changes for AC control - but don't remember details.
FJ1289,
I can imagine a traction control set-up for the launch sequence that would give consistent results. With an accelerometer and wheel-spin detection, no human could perform better than the computer, on the launch. You may want wheelie bars, though.
No doubt, the manufacturers will know what you need for speed controllers, for each motor. Go with their recommendations for a start, until you know more about what is needed.
Two issues for me - first is being "stuck" with a proprietary "system" where you have to buy the motor, the controller and their control strategy - a lot of $$$$ (much more than the unobtainium cylinder head that touched this discussion off!)
Second - goes into the control strategy - traction control for daily street use vs traction control for racetrack use (racetrack = turns and stuff) vs traction control for drag racing (or paved land speed stuff at .5, 1.0 or 1.5 miles) vs traction control for traditional land speed racing (on salt or dirt) are all very different - and that spread is just in cars and trucks! Motorcycles give another level of complexity.
I agree various manufacturers can (and some do) create some awesome systems of systems - but part of the long standing love affair with ICE is being able to get your hands dirty and build, tweak, customize and modify (full fledged modifiers anonymous member here - and not just the FJ's either!).
On the EV front all that is available on the DC side of the house - but I really hope for future generations this develops in the more advanced motor technologies too - that way you don't have to be a commercial manufacturer with venture capital resources to get to "build your own".
Quote from: fj1289 on March 07, 2022, 11:13:31 PM
:sorry:Quote from: red on March 06, 2022, 10:07:39 PM
Quote from: fj1289 on March 06, 2022, 08:37:49 PMFor top level drag race applications, I wonder how hard it is to consistently control the output at launch and early acceleration? How much does the actual output vary with battery temp, motor temp, charge level, etc?
I also assume these "new tech" motors are AC vice DC? How different are the controllers for AC vice DC? I'll have to dig a bit to find it again, but I was following a DIY controller group for a while. There was discussion of mods or changes for AC control - but don't remember details.
FJ1289,
I can imagine a traction control set-up for the launch sequence that would give consistent results. With an accelerometer and wheel-spin detection, no human could perform better than the computer, on the launch. You may want wheelie bars, though.
No doubt, the manufacturers will know what you need for speed controllers, for each motor. Go with their recommendations for a start, until you know more about what is needed.
Two issues for me - first is being "stuck" with a proprietary "system" where you have to buy the motor, the controller and their control strategy - a lot of $$$$ (much more than the unobtainium cylinder head that touched this discussion off!)
Second - goes into the control strategy - traction control for daily street use vs traction control for racetrack use (racetrack = turns and stuff) vs traction control for drag racing (or paved land speed stuff at .5, 1.0 or 1.5 miles) vs traction control for traditional land speed racing (on salt or dirt) are all very different - and that spread is just in cars and trucks! Motorcycles give another level of complexity.
I agree various manufacturers can (and some do) create some awesome systems of systems - but part of the long standing love affair with ICE is being able to get your hands dirty and build, tweak, customize and modify (full fledged modifiers anonymous member here - and not just the FJ's either!).
On the EV front all that is available on the DC side of the house - but I really hope for future generations this develops in the more advanced motor technologies too - that way you don't have to be a commercial manufacturer with venture capital resources to get to "build your own".
FJ1289,
It may be a mistake to presume that the manufacturers will charge too much for a controller, or that you are somehow "stuck" with their choices. I would accept their choices at first, just as a hot-rodder will accept OEM gear as delivered, until they clearly see what needs to be upgraded. As for ICE mods, most of "getting hands dirty" there consists of swapping in an intake manifold from X, headers from Y, and cams, heads, or injectors from Z. Can't say I like the (ICE) requirements to upgrade an oil pump or radiator to allow better engine internals, to the point of diminishing returns. Not happy either, when the stock vehicle computer balks at working with some upgraded gear.
I believe you will soon see the same "mod" choices available for the electrics, also priced by the quality of the engineering. If anybody finds better and cheaper solutions in the electric world, that more expensive hardware will be forgotten junk very quickly, because more people can install that good new stuff, compared to the number who can port or CC a cylinder head. I believe the Modifiers Anonymous crew will find soon be a larger share of the market than they are presently. The performance crew will soon have to recognize that stock Teslas can punch 'way above their class, right now.
Quote from: red on March 08, 2022, 08:37:37 AM
.....The performance crew will soon have to recognize that stock Teslas can punch 'way above their class, right now.
Boy, I'll say.... :wacko2:
An off the showroom floor sedan that weighs 4,760 lbs and runs 9.2's @ 150+...
....take the seats out and you're in the high 8's
Unbelievable
Wait 'till the new Tesla roadster comes out.....mid to low 8's all day long....
Tesla drives are very expensive. Right now. I found 057 tech? Their 400+hp version. With controller. $7,999. Sport + 686 hp must call for price. Only weighs 291lbs.
When it gets down to $3-4000. I'll have to put one in my smart. Should only weigh 1400lbs with 686hp.... :dance2:
You'll need to put rollers on the rear bumper!
Just put the battery needed for that motor in front that ought to keep the front wheels on the ground.
Quote from: T Legg on March 08, 2022, 06:45:53 PM
Just put the battery needed for that motor in front that ought to keep the front wheels on the ground.
Just don't hit the brakes hard, might be an ass over the front event.
Lost an earlier reply :bad:
Found some of the info I was digging into a few years ago for a DIY controller:
https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Open_ReVolt
https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/paul-sabrinas-cheap-diy-144v-motor-controller-6404.html
Not nearly the capacity of the Zilla 1000k and 2000K controllers, but should still be reasonably quick
Was looking to use a forklift hydraulic pump motor - 7.5" I think. Read about the endeavors of a gentleman trying to get one in a motorcycle to make 200mph in a mile. 180's was his best - multiple engine failures due to the amperage he was trying to force through the engine causing heat damage. Would be good in an 1/8 or 1/4 mile though.
Quote from: fj1289 on March 08, 2022, 05:57:14 PM
You'll need to put rollers on the rear bumper!
I do have a receiver hitch built onto the rear subframe but will have to reinforce it more for the wheely bars. If I can get a progressive enough acceleration. I wonder what kinda 1/4. Mile time I could get... I saw a video of a smart with a stock turbocharged sled motor 176 hp. That was running like crap. Turn a 10 second 1/4.
Quote from: giantkiller on March 08, 2022, 04:12:03 PM
Tesla drives are very expensive. Right now. I found 057 tech? Their 400+hp version. With controller. $7,999. Sport + 686 hp must call for price. Only weighs 291lbs.
When it gets down to $3-4000. I'll have to put one in my smart. Should only weigh 1400lbs with 686hp.... :dance2:
No one seems to be taking into account the cost and weight of the batteries to run them.
Noel
Quote from: fj1289 on March 08, 2022, 09:53:25 PMFound some of the info I was digging into a few years ago for a DIY controller:
https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Open_ReVolt
https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/paul-sabrinas-cheap-diy-144v-motor-controller-6404.html
Not nearly the capacity of the Zilla 1000k and 2000K controllers, but should still be reasonably quick
FJ1289,
As a long-time electronics tech, I just want to put in a plug for the industry of Electronics Manufacturing in the USA. I've lost count of the times I have needed a few certain parts, or needed alternatives to obsolete parts, and had the industry people involved providing excellent free help and expertise. In many cases, claiming my (mythical) Personal Inventor status, the needed parts that should have been available only in mass quantities or at high prices were donated to me, free of charge, as Industry Samples. They do this as a part of their business.
On one hand, some of these people really wanted to see me succeed. On the other hand, they saw my possible success as a new potential market-demand for their products. In either case, I was often able to get things done which few solo humans might accomplish, because of my unseen "team" of industry engineers and experts.
If you ask twenty people for their help, and nineteen flatly refuse, then hey,
YOU WON! :yahoo: Who cares about those who did not help?
Two bits of hard-won wisdom here: It never hurts to ask.
Never lose a battle that you have not joined yet.
Quote from: ribbert on March 09, 2022, 07:13:08 AM
Quote from: giantkiller on March 08, 2022, 04:12:03 PM
Tesla drives are very expensive. Right now. I found 057 tech? Their 400+hp version. With controller. $7,999. Sport + 686 hp must call for price. Only weighs 291lbs.
When it gets down to $3-4000. I'll have to put one in my smart. Should only weigh 1400lbs with 686hp.... :dance2:
No one seems to be taking into account the cost and weight of the batteries to run them.
Noel
5 years ago used EV batteries where fairly cheap. From crashed hybrids. But I'm sure now that everyone found out that EVs are fast. Those are probably not cheap anymore.
Quote from: giantkiller on March 09, 2022, 05:29:04 PM
Quote from: ribbert on March 09, 2022, 07:13:08 AM
Quote from: giantkiller on March 08, 2022, 04:12:03 PM
Tesla drives are very expensive. Right now. I found 057 tech? Their 400+hp version. With controller. $7,999. Sport + 686 hp must call for price. Only weighs 291lbs.
When it gets down to $3-4000. I'll have to put one in my smart. Should only weigh 1400lbs with 686hp.... :dance2:
No one seems to be taking into account the cost and weight of the batteries to run them.
Noel
5 years ago used EV batteries where fairly cheap. From crashed hybrids. But I'm sure now that everyone found out that EVs are fast. Those are probably not cheap anymore.
Tesla's came with an 8 year / 100,000 mile warranty on the battery so owner borne replacement costs are just becoming an issue now (2014 being when they started appearing in any sort of volume) there's not a lot of info on this yet but I have seen an invoice for a Tesla 3 battery replacement at $16,500 - ($13,500 for the battery and the balance for labour). A quote for a model 'S' was $22,500 (from a Tesla dealer) just for the battery and presumably the same labour cost on top of that. Then there's all the ancillary stuff. I don't quite think we're there yet but we are certainly on the way!
Building a powerful piston engine always came with a degree of pride, however just opening your wallet a bit further for a bigger off the shelf electric motor just doesn't have the same bragging rights.
While I'm excited for the future of motoring, I'm saddened that electric propulsion heralds the end of my trade, a lifetime of learning and experience consigned to the bin in less than a decade, but I consider myself lucky to have lived the golden era of mechanics, I reckon I was there when it peaked and experienced the best of it.
Although R&D has probably plateaued in IC engines, modern cars and bikes are basically sealed for life units. It is now a reasonable expectation that your entry level Hyundai will do 400,000 km without a major component failure, probably needing only an alternator and a water pump at some stage of it's life and servicing limited to no more than an oil and filter change every 15-20k.
Noel
No EV for me yet, may ever. Too quiet and I would miss the roar of a finely tuned ICE revving up.
Mods are another barrier, you practically need to be an EE to do anything but mix/match or plug-n-play existing components.
How many times have we seen talented folks cast their own parts to reman an obsolete part, 100's at least. Doubt a garage DIYer will be able to do much with EV tech. I don't see anyone being able to rewind a motor, redesign a charge/throttle controller or otherwise improve upon it.
I hope I'm wrong and probably am, but not optimistic about this electric future.
Add to all this the fact we are nearly at capacity to generate/distribute power in the US. Most existing neighborhood subdivisions currently could not handle more than 4-5 EV autos charging at the same time much less other types of rechargeable items too.
Accidents will become a serious problem too, once a battery pack ignites it is nearly impossible to extinguish. Many Tesla (and other EVs) accidents have resulted in serious fires that response crews can do nothing but let them burn out. Search youtube for hundreds of examples (and EVs are only 1% of the vehicles on the road now).
https://www.technocracy.news/electric-car-battery-fires-extremely-hard-to-extinguish/ (https://www.technocracy.news/electric-car-battery-fires-extremely-hard-to-extinguish/)
I'm not against this tech, but I am against it being forced on us before the tech, power supply, and the markets are ready.
The EV support markets will *never* be ready until the demand is there. That's just the way it works.
But the "demand" is being forced now, either by artificially increasing gas prices/taxes or other mandates. That's my biggest issue.
I don't follow....the "demand" for us to buy EV's is forced on us how?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 10, 2022, 02:47:08 PM
I don't follow....the "demand" for us to buy EV's is forced on us how?
https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/23/california-will-require-all-passenger-vehicles-sold-in-the-state-be-zero-emission-by-2035/ (https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/23/california-will-require-all-passenger-vehicles-sold-in-the-state-be-zero-emission-by-2035/)
QuoteCalifornia Governor Gavin Newsom issued an executive order on Wednesday requiring sales of all new passenger vehicles be zero-emission by 2035.
https://jalopnik.com/the-electric-car-is-being-forced-on-us-513761365 (https://jalopnik.com/the-electric-car-is-being-forced-on-us-513761365)
Quote4th Gear: Automakers Being Forced To Sell Electric Cars
States want people to buy electric cars, so they set regulations that say a certain percentage of cars sold must be zero emissions. The people that live in these states don't necessarily want to buy electric cars. Automakers don't necessarily want to spend the exorbitant funds to develop a car nobody will buy.
But too bad they have to.
https://electrek.co/2021/12/02/stellantis-ceo-complains-forced-to-make-evs-dont-know-how-to-profit/ (https://electrek.co/2021/12/02/stellantis-ceo-complains-forced-to-make-evs-dont-know-how-to-profit/)
QuoteStellantis CEO complains about being forced to make EVs and not knowing how to profit from them
https://spectator.org/electric-vehicle-battery/ (https://spectator.org/electric-vehicle-battery/)
QuoteYou are being sold on something you probably wouldn't buy, if you knew what you were buying. EV pushers want you to think you are buying something else — something that makes sense. But if that were the case, why don't they give you all the facts?
That they don't ought to give you a moment's pause.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/05/biden-pushes-for-evs-to-make-up-40percent-or-more-of-us-auto-sales-by-2030.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/05/biden-pushes-for-evs-to-make-up-40percent-or-more-of-us-auto-sales-by-2030.html)
QuotePresident Joe Biden's executive order for half of new vehicles sold in the country to be electric vehicles.
Other than in the state of Calif (starting 2035) I see a federal demand that automobile manufacturers make a certain amount of EV's....but I don't see a demand that consumers buy them.
IOW the consumer still has the option of buying a new ICE vehicle....if they wish.
Since this is not a political forum I will refrain from continuing this here.
I'll leave it at this:
The executive orders, coming gas tax and gas price hikes, non-approval/rejection of new oil drilling permits (not the 9000 leases Psaki claims are unused) all are effectively slowly removing our choice. It is a choice for now, but the folks behind the green new deal will make sure it isn't.
Ok, I see.... Yes, I agree with you...We've seen this happen before. Instead of government saying no, they do it a different way...they just Jack up the prices. e.g. Cigarettes, booze, .223 ammo, beef, etc, etc, and soon fuel.
In the future, when gas is $10 a gallon, EV's will become very attractive, especially when the battery range increases, the vehicle price is reduced and the option of free charging at home on your PV system becomes widespread.
However, I believe, there will still be ICE vehicles around for folks to drive....if they wish.
I hope I can still ride my FJ....
Cheers...
Quote from: indyblue on March 10, 2022, 02:35:52 PMMods are another barrier, you practically need to be an EE to do anything but mix/match or plug-n-play existing components.
Doubt a garage DIYer will be able to do much with EV tech. I don't see anyone being able to rewind a motor, redesign a charge/throttle controller or otherwise improve upon it.
Accidents will become a serious problem too, once a battery pack ignites it is nearly impossible to extinguish. Many Tesla (and other EVs) accidents have resulted in serious fires that response crews can do nothing but let them burn out. Search youtube for hundreds of examples (and EVs are only 1% of the vehicles on the road now).
I'm not against this tech, but I am against it being forced on us before the tech, power supply, and the markets are ready.
indyblue,
There is not much that the average guy can duplicate (let alone improve) in a modern car today. Mix'n'match is the strategy for most ICE mods today.
Lately, I don't see much future for the dangerous variety of lithium batteries.
Aluminum-air batteries do not get recharged by the grid, or anywhere else; they are assembled, run into the ground, and recycled. No grid updates are needed, for aluminum-air batteries. I can see having two in a vehicle, running on one, swapping to the other when the first is finished, and swapping the dead one out at the driver's convenience at the recycling station.
We have barely scratched the potentials of batteries which can out-perform the lithiums. Aluminum-based batteries will carry more power and charge faster than the lithiums today.
https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/industry-news/applications-design/ev-range-breakthrough-with-new-aluminum-ion-battery/ (https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/industry-news/applications-design/ev-range-breakthrough-with-new-aluminum-ion-battery/)
Quote from: red on March 10, 2022, 06:49:38 PM
Quote from: indyblue on March 10, 2022, 02:35:52 PMMods are another barrier, you practically need to be an EE to do anything but mix/match or plug-n-play existing components.
Doubt a garage DIYer will be able to do much with EV tech. I don't see anyone being able to rewind a motor, redesign a charge/throttle controller or otherwise improve upon it.
Accidents will become a serious problem too, once a battery pack ignites it is nearly impossible to extinguish. Many Tesla (and other EVs) accidents have resulted in serious fires that response crews can do nothing but let them burn out. Search youtube for hundreds of examples (and EVs are only 1% of the vehicles on the road now).
I'm not against this tech, but I am against it being forced on us before the tech, power supply, and the markets are ready.
indyblue,
There is not much that the average guy can duplicate (let alone improve) in a modern car today. Mix'n'match is the strategy for most ICE mods today.
Lately, I don't see much future for the dangerous variety of lithium batteries.
Aluminum-air batteries do not get recharged by the grid, or anywhere else; they are assembled, run into the ground, and recycled. No grid updates are needed, for aluminum-air batteries. I can see having two in a vehicle, running on one, swapping to the other when the first is finished, and swapping the dead one out at the driver's convenience at the recycling station.
We have barely scratched the potentials of batteries which can out-perform the lithiums. Aluminum-based batteries will carry more power and charge faster than the lithiums today.
https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/industry-news/applications-design/ev-range-breakthrough-with-new-aluminum-ion-battery/ (https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/industry-news/applications-design/ev-range-breakthrough-with-new-aluminum-ion-battery/)
Maybe. But I have read so many dozens of press releases about breakthrough battery technology in last few years where none have yet come to fruition commercially. Just like nuclear fusion has been just 50 years away for over 70 years now, I'll believe it when I can buy it.
Quote from: indyblue on March 10, 2022, 10:58:08 PMMaybe. But I have read so many dozens of press releases about breakthrough battery technology in last few years where none have yet come to fruition commercially. Just like nuclear fusion has been just 50 years away for over 70 years now, I'll believe it when I can buy it.
Indyblue,
Yeah, I'm still waiting for my flying car, as well. They promised me a
flying car! :biggrin: Maybe soon . . . or not. I did se a human-carrying drone-type creation that looks good to me, eight motors, eight blades, and self-landing if there is any problem in the redundant drive system.
In the USA, the "issue" with the FAA is licensing. Ultralight aircraft do not need licensing, but if it can exceed 55 mph in level flight, it does need licensing, no matter the weight. I saw an interview with an FAA guy who admitted the
real issue was the tailpipes and other car parts that you see strewn along the highway, as proof that most people will not maintain their machine as well as they should. Personally, I think those people will take themselves out of the game, one way or another, but nobody is asking me.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 10, 2022, 05:35:02 PM
Ok, I see.... Yes, I agree with you...We've seen this happen before. Instead of government saying no, they do it a different way...they just Jack up the prices. e.g. Cigarettes, booze, .223 ammo, beef, etc, etc, and soon fuel.
In the future, when gas is $10 a gallon, EV's will become very attractive, especially when the battery range increases, the vehicle price is reduced and the option of free charging at home on your PV system becomes widespread.
However, I believe, there will still be ICE vehicles around for folks to drive....if they wish.
I hope I can still ride my FJ....
Cheers...
Not here, not on 4 wheels Pat - ICE engines New cars are banned from sale from 2030.
Range isn't the issue with EV's, it's their recharging times. Nobody wants at 300 mile range when you need a long time to recharge the batteries. An EV that could do 200 miles and get recharged to 100% in 5-10 minutes, would get my money (if it was priced right) - it's coming, but the longer people allow "range" to be the issue, rather than stupidly long recharge times, the longer it will take until we get REALLY useful EV's.
New legislation coming through here and in the EU will mean that it's illegal to do anything to your EV unless it's done by the Original Manufacturer. In time, this will come to the USA too Pat - I think we'll both live long enough to see it.
Dean, yes I know that other countries have banned the sale of new ice cars....How about resale of used cars?
My point, was that ice vehicles will still be around for awhile.... It's the fuel that will be economically prohibitive.
I see it as a two-pronged attack to get rid of ICE's more quickly - ban the sale of new ones and make old ones so costly to use that people will trade them in, or scrap them.
Watch for the coming "incentives" (scrappage payments) to get you to hand over your ICE vehicle for demolition.
If you've ever watched Demolition Man, with Sly Stallone and Wesley Snipes, you will see that their comic take on future "ridiculousness" is rapidly becoming a more accurate depiction of the future than anything done by Astrologists, Fortune Teller's, See'ers, Nostradamus, the Mayans, or anyone else !!!!!
I'll admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but concerning battery range why can't they just fit high output alternators to each wheel to charge the battery while driving. You hear about battery regeneration while braking so what's so hard about doing the same while driving, that way theoretically you would have endless range.
Quote from: Bones on March 12, 2022, 03:28:45 AM
I'll admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but concerning battery range why can't they just fit high output alternators to each wheel to charge the battery while driving. You hear about battery regeneration while braking so what's so hard about doing the same while driving, that way theoretically you would have endless range.
I like the way you think!...... :crazy:
Quote from: Bones on March 12, 2022, 03:28:45 AMI'll admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but concerning battery range why can't they just fit high output alternators to each wheel to charge the battery while driving. You hear about battery regeneration while braking so what's so hard about doing the same while driving, that way theoretically you would have endless range.
Bones,
It takes power to move the vehicle forward. It takes power to turn an alternator. No alternator can produce as much power as it takes to turn it. You can put in ten Watts of rotational energy, but you can only get eight Watts out as electricity. (as an example). Your idea would be like putting an airplane engine on a square-rigged sailing ship, to blow wind into the sails. Net result, the ship goes nowhere.
Normal braking uses friction to convert forward motion into heat, which is then wasted - we have no way to capture and use that heat. In fact, we need that heat to go away (dissipate) quickly, so the brakes do not get too hot to be used again. When an EV needs to stop, we
can use the wheel motors as generators (alternators) to make the rotational energy at the wheels back into electricity, instead of wasted brake heat. That is regenerative braking. Now if it takes 100 Watts to make the vehicle go, you can only get maybe 80 Watts of electricity back in the stopping. This trick can help to
extend battery life, but you can never get out more power than you put in. If you could, everybody would have cars that ran forever without adding any gasoline or electricity.
I talked to a guy that had a Chevy Volt, he said growing up he had all the hot rods like camaro and mustang and such and he said this little Volt out accelerated all of them. This was a short conversation so maybe they were stock units from factory and not had any power mods but these EV's do get up and dance. My take is that the glory days of the ICE need to be rendered obsolete if your great grankids and they're off spring still want to breath O2. I know it sucks and I am a gear head and love the piston engine but one thing constant in the universe is CHANGE. We cant keep following the same course. Next the meat eaters will be the enemy. I like a dam good steak.
Quote from: red on March 06, 2022, 10:07:39 PM
Quote from: fj1289 on March 06, 2022, 08:37:49 PMFor top level drag race applications, I wonder how hard it is to consistently control the output at launch and early acceleration? How much does the actual output vary with battery temp, motor temp, charge level, etc?
I also assume these "new tech" motors are AC vice DC? How different are the controllers for AC vice DC? I'll have to dig a bit to find it again, but I was following a DIY controller group for a while. There was discussion of mods or changes for AC control - but don't remember details.
FJ1289,
I can imagine a traction control set-up for the launch sequence that would give consistent results. With an accelerometer and wheel-spin detection, no human could perform better than the computer, on the launch. You may want wheelie bars, though.
No doubt, the manufacturers will know what you need for speed controllers, for each motor. Go with their recommendations for a start, until you know more about what is needed.
At that point, why involve a human? Make it autonomous, watch it run at the strip, but, ride an FJ to the strip.
Ted