Engine alternatives

[red]

Certainly this  is an ICE forum, and slanted toward recips, but I really have no burning desire to see more of an aging technology that involves a piston  (or anything) that goes one way, stops, goes the other way , stops, and repeats.  Even with all of their flaws, I can admire the rotary piston engines (such as the WW-1 Le Rhone) where every piece of the engine moves in a perfect circle, and no part of the engine ever reverses direction.  In this day, only the electric motors pursue that ideal of motive power now.  To me, a two-stroke fuel-injected turbo Le Rhone rotary would be a very interesting piece of hardware - light, powerful, cheap to produce, and efficient on fuel, but I digress.
Exotic materials and machine work far beyond the financial resources of most riders are not things to be admired or duplicated by ordinary people.  They are only pricey ideals to be envied.  I take no issues with a strong mass-produced bike, available (attainable) to the workaday rider.  To me, one-of-a-kind engines with astronomical price tags are very far from the spirit of this forum.
That's my rant, and I'm sticking to it.   

[fj1289]

Red - ought to get you in touch with Frank (Frank06 on suzukihayabusa.org) - he's been dabbling a "little" in electric conversions: https://www.dragbike.com/lta-electric-street-bike-breaks-200-mph/

I'm interested in the electrics too!  Have two motors picked up on the cheap locally - but not really suitable for the speeds I was hoping to work up to - but would be an awesome replacement for the 250cc scooter motor in the little dune buggy....

Either way - I really appreciate the ingenuity and craftsmanship in all these endeavors!

But, I'm not sure I really want to try a fixed crankshaft/spinning engine case/cylinders in ANYTHING!  The torque reaction is a bit too much to deal with!  Except for maybe in a tractor ...

Yeah - the cost thing - that slowed my roll on the electrics too!  Controllers and batteries (good ones) are pricey!

[Pat Conlon]

20 second peak: 335hp/443ft.lbs and continuous rated 134hp/184ft.lbs in a small 63 lb package.



https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38940998/koenigsegg-quark-electric-motor/

Batteries just need to catch up.....the first one to 1kWh/kg specific density wins...
So far (2022) we are 1/2 the way there: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/01/220120140724.htm

[fj1289]

Pat - do you know where a few of these might have "fallen off a truck" or shipping container or boat ....

I wonder how many Harbor Freight Bauer tool batteries I'd have to disassemble to make a suitable battery pack .....!


Maybe it is narrow enough to build it into one side of the swingarm and directly drive the wheel hub - look Mom, no chain!  (And no parasitic losses either!) 

[giantkiller]

Pat - do you know where a few of these might have "fallen off a truck" or shipping container or boat ....

I wonder how many Harbor Freight Bauer tool batteries I'd have to disassemble to make a suitable battery pack .....!


Maybe it is narrow enough to build it into one side of the swingarm and directly drive the wheel hub - look Mom, no chain!  (And no parasitic losses either!)  

For drag racing that would be great! 63lbs right on the rear wheel... would need one on each side for balance. Lol
Other wise 63lbs is a lot of unsprung weight.

[Pat Conlon]

For a car retrofit...Here's a pair of Quark motors with the inverter sandwiched in the middle to replace a complete rear or front drive ICE/trans assembly....670 hp and 811 lb-ft in a package that weighs just 187 pounds, with torque vectoring to boot.


https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/02/koenigsegg-quark-terrier-bring-big-power-in-small-package-to-electric-cars/

Heck, go all in....use one on the front wheels...and one on the back, for 4 wheel drive....

We've had 120+ years to develop and fine tune ICE.
With EV's, I find it amazing how far we have come in such a short time.

(note to self: buy stock in Koenigsegg)

[giantkiller]

Crap. Maybe I should scrap the turbo sled motor for the race drivetrane for the smart. Lol. If I can just find one for a couple thousand dollars. 

[red]

Okay, I guess there is real interest in the topic of next-gen motive power.  There is great research in progress, and serious players are stepping up.

So I'd like to start a separate topic here, for what can happen when we finally tire of pistons.

Problem is Red, the flaws were inherent in the design. You say only electric motors have achieved that, what about turbines?

Noel

Ribbert,
Turbines use a LOT of air, and torque is fairly low.  They need an extreme application of gear reduction to power a vehicle, and they wind up into the power band slowly.  The exhaust is hot and noisy.  Jay Leno has a turbine bike, using a helicopter APU turbine - I think his bike gets ten miles on a tankful of jet fuel.  He once melted the front end of the car waiting behind his turbine bike at a traffic light.  Ooops . . .

FJ1289,
The quark motor would probably work well enough if located where the transmission sprocket is located normally.  Might take one bear of a drive chain, but there is not much power lost in chain drives.

Pat,
I could see that twin-Quark mover as replacing the differential in an ordinary car's solid rear axle, or replacing the transmission in a FWD car.  A pair of Lynch motors could certainly move the average commuter smartly enough, in the same way.

Lest we forget, Yamaha now has an interesting candidate in the running.  It may be a bit much in a bike, but it is intended for the super-car market.  A slightly smaller version would really do the job on a bike.  469 HP:
https://www.rideapart.com/news/501067/yamaha-new-469-horsepower-electric-motor/

[red]

Hey Red, if you prefer, from Chris's (fj1289) original post (Interesting "use"of..)  I can separate out all the posts about electrics and place them here.....your call.

Pat,

Okay by me, if nobody objects.  Thanks.  Didn't think my rant would stir so much interest, but interest is a good thing.   

[Pat Conlon]

....Yamaha now has an interesting candidate in the running.  It may be a bit much in a bike, but it is intended for the super-car market.  A slightly smaller version would really do the job on a bike.  469 HP:
https://www.rideapart.com/news/501067/yamaha-new-469-horsepower-electric-motor/

Red, do you know the weight of the Yamaha 350kW unit? I couldn't find it....

Yamaha vs Koenigsegg: The Yamaha will be first to market as it looks to be a complete design, for example how will Koenigsegg's motor be cooled? Although the fundamental motor design of the Koenigsegg looks to be superior.
Combining the Axial flux design with the conventional radial flux you get the best of both worlds, small compact light weight package (high rpm) coupled with high torque.
Direct drive means no need for step down gearing or the need for heavier larger rotors to get good torque numbers.

Here's a quote from Koenigsegg:
"This means, when using the Quark in applications such as marine, aircraft, or VTOL, there is no need for a step-down transmission. Instead direct drive can be achieved, as the RPM of the motor is right from the get-go. Small high revving motors can have higher peak power-to-weight ratio, but they need transmissions in most applications in order to get to the desired output rpm and torque, causing energy loss and adding weight and complexity to do the same job. So any benefit in size is lost."

Gotta love those torque and power curves that are not curves....more like a table.

[Millietant]

Combining the Axial flux design with the conventional radial flux you get the best of both worlds, small compact light weight package (high rpm) coupled with high torque.

For a real performance boost, to get the best energy storage from an either an Axial, or Radial design Pat, you need to include a capacitor.

With that technology, you could actually finish a 1/4 mile sprint before you started it  

[Pat Conlon]

For a real performance boost, to get the best energy storage from an either an Axial, or Radial design Pat, you need to include a capacitor.

With that technology, you could actually finish a 1/4 mile sprint before you started it  

A flux capacitor...hmmmmm, where have I heard that.....? 

[fj1289]

For top level drag race applications, I wonder how hard it is to consistently control the output at launch and early acceleration?  How much does the actual output vary with battery temp, motor temp, charge level, etc?   


I also assume these "new tech" motors are AC vice DC?  How different are the controllers for AC vice DC?  I'll have to dig a bit to find it again, but I was following a DIY controller group for a while.  There was discussion of mods or changes for AC control - but don't remember details. 

[red]

For top level drag race applications, I wonder how hard it is to consistently control the output at launch and early acceleration?  How much does the actual output vary with battery temp, motor temp, charge level, etc?   
I also assume these "new tech" motors are AC vice DC?  How different are the controllers for AC vice DC?  I'll have to dig a bit to find it again, but I was following a DIY controller group for a while.  There was discussion of mods or changes for AC control - but don't remember details.

FJ1289,

I can imagine a traction control set-up for the launch sequence that would give consistent results.  With an accelerometer and wheel-spin detection, no human could perform better than the computer, on the launch.  You may want wheelie bars, though.
No doubt, the manufacturers will know what you need for speed controllers, for each motor.  Go with their recommendations for a start, until you know more about what is needed.

[ribbert]

Ribbert,
Turbines use a LOT of air, and torque is fairly low.  They need an extreme application of gear reduction to power a vehicle, and they wind up into the power band slowly.  The exhaust is hot and noisy.  Jay Leno has a turbine bike, using a helicopter APU turbine - I think his bike gets ten miles on a tankful of jet fuel.  He once melted the front end of the car waiting behind his turbine bike at a traffic light.  Ooops . . .

Whoa Red! I only mentioned turbines in the context of your claim that only the electric motor had succeeded in producing a non reciprocating engine. Never for a moment did I suggest they were a suitable candidate for automotive use.