Engine alternatives

[ribbert]

Tesla drives are very expensive. Right now. I found 057 tech? Their 400+hp version. With controller. $7,999. Sport + 686 hp  must call for price. Only weighs 291lbs.
When it gets down to $3-4000. I'll have to put one in my smart. Should  only weigh 1400lbs with 686hp....

No one seems to be taking into account the cost and weight of the batteries to run them.

Noel

5 years ago used EV batteries where fairly cheap. From crashed hybrids.  But I'm sure now that everyone found out that EVs are fast. Those are probably not cheap anymore.

Tesla's came with an 8 year / 100,000 mile warranty on the battery so owner borne replacement costs are just becoming an issue now (2014 being when they started appearing in any sort of volume) there's not a lot of info on this yet but I have seen an invoice for a Tesla 3 battery replacement at $16,500 - ($13,500 for the battery and the balance for labour). A quote for a model 'S' was $22,500 (from a Tesla dealer) just for the battery and presumably the same labour cost on top of that. Then there's all the ancillary stuff. I don't quite think we're there yet but we are certainly on the way!

Building a powerful piston engine always came with a degree of pride, however just opening your wallet a bit further for a bigger off the shelf electric motor just doesn't have the same bragging rights.

While I'm excited for the future of motoring, I'm saddened that electric propulsion heralds the end of my trade, a lifetime of learning and experience consigned to the bin in less than a decade, but I consider myself lucky to have lived the golden era of mechanics, I reckon I was there when it peaked and experienced the best of it.

Although R&D has probably plateaued in IC engines, modern cars and bikes are basically sealed for life units. It is now a reasonable expectation that your entry level Hyundai will do 400,000 km without a major component failure, probably needing only an alternator and a water pump at some stage of it's life and servicing limited to no more than an oil and filter change every 15-20k.

Noel

[indyblue]

No EV for me yet, may ever.  Too quiet and I would miss the roar of a finely tuned ICE revving up.

Mods are another barrier, you practically need to be an EE to do anything but mix/match or plug-n-play existing components.

How many times have we seen talented folks cast their own parts to reman an obsolete part, 100's at least.  Doubt a garage DIYer will be able to do much with EV tech.  I don't see anyone being able to rewind a motor, redesign a charge/throttle controller or otherwise improve upon it.

I hope I'm wrong and probably am, but not optimistic about this electric future.

Add to all this the fact we are nearly at capacity to generate/distribute power in the US.  Most existing neighborhood subdivisions currently could not handle more than 4-5 EV autos charging at the same time much less other types of rechargeable items too.

Accidents will become a serious problem too, once a battery pack ignites it is nearly impossible to extinguish.  Many Tesla (and other EVs) accidents have resulted in serious fires that response crews can do nothing but let them burn out.  Search youtube for hundreds of examples (and EVs are only 1% of the vehicles on the road now).
https://www.technocracy.news/electric-car-battery-fires-extremely-hard-to-extinguish/

I'm not against this tech, but I am against it being forced on us before the tech, power supply, and the markets are ready.

[Pat Conlon]

The EV support markets will *never* be ready until the demand is there. That's just the way it works.

[indyblue]

But the "demand" is being forced now, either by artificially increasing gas prices/taxes or other mandates.  That's my biggest issue.

[Pat Conlon]

I don't follow....the "demand" for us to buy EV's is forced on us how?

[indyblue]

I don't follow....the "demand" for us to buy EV's is forced on us how?

https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/23/california-will-require-all-passenger-vehicles-sold-in-the-state-be-zero-emission-by-2035/

California Governor Gavin Newsom issued an executive order on Wednesday requiring sales of all new passenger vehicles be zero-emission by 2035.

https://jalopnik.com/the-electric-car-is-being-forced-on-us-513761365

4th Gear: Automakers Being Forced To Sell Electric Cars

States want people to buy electric cars, so they set regulations that say a certain percentage of cars sold must be zero emissions. The people that live in these states don't necessarily want to buy electric cars. Automakers don't necessarily want to spend the exorbitant funds to develop a car nobody will buy.

But too bad they have to.

https://electrek.co/2021/12/02/stellantis-ceo-complains-forced-to-make-evs-dont-know-how-to-profit/

Stellantis CEO complains about being forced to make EVs and not knowing how to profit from them

https://spectator.org/electric-vehicle-battery/

You are being sold on something you probably wouldn't buy, if you knew what you were buying. EV pushers want you to think you are buying something else — something that makes sense. But if that were the case, why don't they give you all the facts?

That they don't ought to give you a moment's pause.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/05/biden-pushes-for-evs-to-make-up-40percent-or-more-of-us-auto-sales-by-2030.html

President Joe Biden's executive order for half of new vehicles sold in the country to be electric vehicles.

[Pat Conlon]

Other than in the state of Calif (starting 2035) I see a federal demand that automobile manufacturers make a certain amount of EV's....but I don't see a demand that consumers buy them.

IOW the consumer still has the option of buying a new ICE vehicle....if they wish.

[indyblue]

Since this is not a political forum I will refrain from continuing this here.

I'll leave it at this:

The executive orders, coming gas tax and gas price hikes, non-approval/rejection of new oil drilling permits (not the 9000 leases Psaki claims are unused) all are effectively slowly removing our choice.  It is a choice for now, but the folks behind the green new deal will make sure it isn't.

[Pat Conlon]

Ok, I see.... Yes, I agree with you...We've seen this happen before. Instead of government saying no, they do it a different way...they just Jack up the prices.  e.g.  Cigarettes, booze, .223 ammo, beef, etc, etc, and soon fuel.

In the future, when gas is $10 a gallon, EV's will become very attractive, especially when the battery range increases, the vehicle price is reduced and the option of free charging at home on your PV system becomes widespread.

However, I believe, there will still be ICE vehicles around for folks to drive....if they wish.

I hope I can still ride my FJ....

Cheers...

[red]

Mods are another barrier, you practically need to be an EE to do anything but mix/match or plug-n-play existing components.
Doubt a garage DIYer will be able to do much with EV tech.  I don't see anyone being able to rewind a motor, redesign a charge/throttle controller or otherwise improve upon it.
Accidents will become a serious problem too, once a battery pack ignites it is nearly impossible to extinguish.  Many Tesla (and other EVs) accidents have resulted in serious fires that response crews can do nothing but let them burn out.  Search youtube for hundreds of examples (and EVs are only 1% of the vehicles on the road now).
I'm not against this tech, but I am against it being forced on us before the tech, power supply, and the markets are ready.

indyblue,

There is not much that the average guy can duplicate (let alone improve) in a modern car today.  Mix'n'match is the strategy for most ICE mods today.

Lately, I don't see much future for the dangerous variety of lithium batteries. 

Aluminum-air batteries do not get recharged by the grid, or anywhere else; they are assembled, run into the ground, and recycled.  No grid updates are needed, for aluminum-air batteries.  I can see having two in a vehicle, running on one, swapping to the other when the first is finished, and swapping the dead one out at the driver's convenience at the recycling station. 

We have barely scratched the potentials of batteries which can out-perform the lithiums.  Aluminum-based batteries will carry more power and charge faster than the lithiums today.

https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/industry-news/applications-design/ev-range-breakthrough-with-new-aluminum-ion-battery/

[indyblue]

Mods are another barrier, you practically need to be an EE to do anything but mix/match or plug-n-play existing components.
Doubt a garage DIYer will be able to do much with EV tech.  I don't see anyone being able to rewind a motor, redesign a charge/throttle controller or otherwise improve upon it.
Accidents will become a serious problem too, once a battery pack ignites it is nearly impossible to extinguish.  Many Tesla (and other EVs) accidents have resulted in serious fires that response crews can do nothing but let them burn out.  Search youtube for hundreds of examples (and EVs are only 1% of the vehicles on the road now).
I'm not against this tech, but I am against it being forced on us before the tech, power supply, and the markets are ready.

indyblue,

There is not much that the average guy can duplicate (let alone improve) in a modern car today.  Mix'n'match is the strategy for most ICE mods today.

Lately, I don't see much future for the dangerous variety of lithium batteries. 

Aluminum-air batteries do not get recharged by the grid, or anywhere else; they are assembled, run into the ground, and recycled.  No grid updates are needed, for aluminum-air batteries.  I can see having two in a vehicle, running on one, swapping to the other when the first is finished, and swapping the dead one out at the driver's convenience at the recycling station. 

We have barely scratched the potentials of batteries which can out-perform the lithiums.  Aluminum-based batteries will carry more power and charge faster than the lithiums today.

https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/industry-news/applications-design/ev-range-breakthrough-with-new-aluminum-ion-battery/

Maybe.  But I have read so many dozens of press releases about breakthrough battery technology in last few years where none have yet come to fruition commercially.  Just like nuclear fusion has been just 50 years away for over 70 years now, I'll believe it when I can buy it.

[red]

Maybe.  But I have read so many dozens of press releases about breakthrough battery technology in last few years where none have yet come to fruition commercially.  Just like nuclear fusion has been just 50 years away for over 70 years now, I'll believe it when I can buy it.

Indyblue,
Yeah, I'm still waiting for my flying car, as well.  They promised me a flying car!      Maybe soon . . . or not.  I did se a human-carrying drone-type creation that looks good to me, eight motors, eight blades, and self-landing if there is any problem in the redundant drive system. 

In the USA, the "issue" with the FAA is licensing.  Ultralight aircraft do not need licensing, but if it can exceed 55 mph in level flight, it does need licensing, no matter the weight.  I saw an interview with an FAA guy who admitted the real issue was the tailpipes and other car parts that you see strewn along the highway, as proof that most people will not maintain their machine as well as they should.  Personally, I think those people will take themselves out of the game, one way or another, but nobody is asking me.

[Millietant]

Ok, I see.... Yes, I agree with you...We've seen this happen before. Instead of government saying no, they do it a different way...they just Jack up the prices.  e.g.  Cigarettes, booze, .223 ammo, beef, etc, etc, and soon fuel.

In the future, when gas is $10 a gallon, EV's will become very attractive, especially when the battery range increases, the vehicle price is reduced and the option of free charging at home on your PV system becomes widespread.

However, I believe, there will still be ICE vehicles around for folks to drive....if they wish.

I hope I can still ride my FJ....

Cheers...

Not here, not on 4 wheels Pat - ICE engines New cars are banned from sale from 2030.

Range isn't the issue with EV's, it's their recharging times. Nobody wants at 300 mile range when you need a long time to recharge the batteries. An EV that could do 200 miles and get recharged to 100% in 5-10 minutes, would get my money (if it was priced right) - it's coming, but the longer people allow "range" to be the issue, rather than stupidly long recharge times, the longer it will take until we get REALLY useful EV's.

New legislation coming through here and in the EU will mean that it's illegal to do anything to your EV unless it's done by the Original Manufacturer. In time, this will come to the USA too Pat - I think we'll both live long enough to see it.

[Pat Conlon]

Dean, yes I know that other countries have banned the sale of new ice cars....How about resale of used cars?

My point, was that ice vehicles will still be around for awhile.... It's the fuel that will be economically prohibitive.

[Millietant]

I see it as a two-pronged attack to get rid of ICE's more quickly - ban the sale of new ones and make old ones so costly to use that people will trade them in, or scrap them.

Watch for the coming "incentives" (scrappage payments) to get you to hand over your ICE vehicle for demolition.

If you've ever watched Demolition Man, with Sly Stallone and Wesley Snipes, you will see that their comic take on future "ridiculousness" is rapidly becoming a more accurate depiction of the future than anything done by Astrologists, Fortune Teller's, See'ers, Nostradamus, the Mayans, or anyone else !!!!!