Engine alternatives

[ribbert]

A flux capacitor...hmmmmm, where have I heard that.....? 

Maybe given some time we'll find out.

Noel

[Millietant]

A flux capacitor...hmmmmm, where have I heard that.....? 

Maybe given some time we'll find out.

Noel

Yeah, Pat heard about it tomorrow 

[fj1289]

 

For top level drag race applications, I wonder how hard it is to consistently control the output at launch and early acceleration?  How much does the actual output vary with battery temp, motor temp, charge level, etc?   
I also assume these "new tech" motors are AC vice DC?  How different are the controllers for AC vice DC?  I'll have to dig a bit to find it again, but I was following a DIY controller group for a while.  There was discussion of mods or changes for AC control - but don't remember details.

FJ1289,

I can imagine a traction control set-up for the launch sequence that would give consistent results.  With an accelerometer and wheel-spin detection, no human could perform better than the computer, on the launch.  You may want wheelie bars, though.
No doubt, the manufacturers will know what you need for speed controllers, for each motor.  Go with their recommendations for a start, until you know more about what is needed.

Two issues for me - first is being "stuck" with a proprietary "system" where you have to buy the motor, the controller and their control strategy - a lot of $$$$ (much more than the unobtainium cylinder head that touched this discussion off!)

Second - goes into the control strategy - traction control for daily street use vs traction control for racetrack use (racetrack = turns and stuff) vs traction control for drag racing (or paved land speed stuff at .5, 1.0 or 1.5 miles) vs traction control for traditional land speed racing (on salt or dirt) are all very different - and that spread is just in cars and trucks!  Motorcycles give another level of complexity. 

I agree various manufacturers can (and some do) create some awesome systems of systems - but part of the long standing love affair with ICE is being able to get your hands dirty and build, tweak, customize and modify (full fledged modifiers anonymous member here - and not just the FJ's either!). 

On the EV front all that is available on the DC side of the house - but I really hope for future generations this develops in the more advanced motor technologies too - that way you don't have to be a commercial manufacturer with venture capital resources to get to "build your own". 

[ribbert]

A flux capacitor...hmmmmm, where have I heard that.....? 

Maybe given some time we'll find out.

Noel

Yeah, Pat heard about it tomorrow 

[red]

For top level drag race applications, I wonder how hard it is to consistently control the output at launch and early acceleration?  How much does the actual output vary with battery temp, motor temp, charge level, etc?   
I also assume these "new tech" motors are AC vice DC?  How different are the controllers for AC vice DC?  I'll have to dig a bit to find it again, but I was following a DIY controller group for a while.  There was discussion of mods or changes for AC control - but don't remember details.

FJ1289,
I can imagine a traction control set-up for the launch sequence that would give consistent results.  With an accelerometer and wheel-spin detection, no human could perform better than the computer, on the launch.  You may want wheelie bars, though.
No doubt, the manufacturers will know what you need for speed controllers, for each motor.  Go with their recommendations for a start, until you know more about what is needed.

Two issues for me - first is being "stuck" with a proprietary "system" where you have to buy the motor, the controller and their control strategy - a lot of $$$$ (much more than the unobtainium cylinder head that touched this discussion off!)
Second - goes into the control strategy - traction control for daily street use vs traction control for racetrack use (racetrack = turns and stuff) vs traction control for drag racing (or paved land speed stuff at .5, 1.0 or 1.5 miles) vs traction control for traditional land speed racing (on salt or dirt) are all very different - and that spread is just in cars and trucks!  Motorcycles give another level of complexity. 
I agree various manufacturers can (and some do) create some awesome systems of systems - but part of the long standing love affair with ICE is being able to get your hands dirty and build, tweak, customize and modify (full fledged modifiers anonymous member here - and not just the FJ's either!). 
On the EV front all that is available on the DC side of the house - but I really hope for future generations this develops in the more advanced motor technologies too - that way you don't have to be a commercial manufacturer with venture capital resources to get to "build your own".

FJ1289,

It may be a mistake to presume that the manufacturers will charge too much for a controller, or that you are somehow "stuck" with their choices.  I would accept their choices at first, just as a hot-rodder will accept OEM gear as delivered, until they clearly see what needs to be upgraded.  As for ICE mods, most of "getting hands dirty" there consists of swapping in an intake manifold from X, headers from Y, and cams, heads, or injectors from Z.  Can't say I like the (ICE) requirements to upgrade an oil pump or radiator to allow better engine internals, to the point of diminishing returns.  Not happy either, when the stock vehicle computer balks at working with some upgraded gear.

I believe you will soon see the same "mod" choices available for the electrics, also priced by the quality of the engineering.  If anybody finds better and cheaper solutions in the electric world, that more expensive hardware will be forgotten junk very quickly, because more people can install that good new stuff, compared to the number who can port or CC a cylinder head.    I believe the Modifiers Anonymous crew will find soon be a larger share of the market than they are presently.  The performance crew will soon have to recognize that stock Teslas can punch 'way above their class, right now.

[Pat Conlon]

.....The performance crew will soon have to recognize that stock Teslas can punch 'way above their class, right now.

Boy, I'll say....

An off the showroom floor sedan that weighs 4,760 lbs and runs 9.2's @ 150+...
....take the seats out and you're in the high 8's

Unbelievable  

Wait 'till the new Tesla roadster comes out.....mid to low 8's all day long....

[giantkiller]

Tesla drives are very expensive. Right now. I found 057 tech? Their 400+hp version. With controller. $7,999. Sport + 686 hp  must call for price. Only weighs 291lbs.
When it gets down to $3-4000. I'll have to put one in my smart. Should  only weigh 1400lbs with 686hp....

[fj1289]

You'll need to put rollers on the rear bumper!

[T Legg]

Just put the battery needed for that motor in front     that ought to keep the front wheels on the ground.

[FJmonkey]

Just put the battery needed for that motor in front     that ought to keep the front wheels on the ground.

Just don't hit the brakes hard, might be an ass over the front event.

[fj1289]

Lost an earlier reply 

Found some of the info I was digging into a few years ago for a DIY controller:

https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Open_ReVolt

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/paul-sabrinas-cheap-diy-144v-motor-controller-6404.html

Not nearly the capacity of the Zilla 1000k and 2000K controllers, but should still be reasonably quick



Was looking to use a forklift hydraulic pump motor - 7.5" I think.  Read about the endeavors of a gentleman trying to get one in a motorcycle to make 200mph in a mile.  180's was his best - multiple engine failures due to the amperage he was trying to force through the engine causing heat damage.  Would be good in an 1/8 or 1/4 mile though. 

[giantkiller]

You'll need to put rollers on the rear bumper!

I do have a receiver hitch built onto the rear subframe but will have to reinforce it more for the wheely bars. If I can get a progressive enough acceleration. I wonder what kinda 1/4. Mile time I could get... I saw a video of a smart with a stock turbocharged sled motor 176 hp. That was running like crap. Turn a 10 second 1/4.

[ribbert]

Tesla drives are very expensive. Right now. I found 057 tech? Their 400+hp version. With controller. $7,999. Sport + 686 hp  must call for price. Only weighs 291lbs.
When it gets down to $3-4000. I'll have to put one in my smart. Should  only weigh 1400lbs with 686hp....

No one seems to be taking into account the cost and weight of the batteries to run them.

Noel

[red]

Found some of the info I was digging into a few years ago for a DIY controller:
https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Open_ReVolt
https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/paul-sabrinas-cheap-diy-144v-motor-controller-6404.html
Not nearly the capacity of the Zilla 1000k and 2000K controllers, but should still be reasonably quick

FJ1289,

As a long-time electronics tech, I just want to put in a plug for the industry of Electronics Manufacturing in the USA.  I've lost count of the times I have needed a few certain parts, or needed alternatives to obsolete parts, and had the industry people involved providing excellent free help and expertise.  In many cases, claiming my (mythical) Personal Inventor status, the needed parts that should have been available only in mass quantities or at high prices were donated to me, free of charge, as Industry Samples.  They do this as a part of their business.

On one hand, some of these people really wanted to see me succeed.  On the other hand, they saw my possible success as a new potential market-demand for their products.  In either case, I was often able to get things done which few solo humans might accomplish, because of my unseen "team" of industry engineers and experts.
If you ask twenty people for their help, and nineteen flatly refuse, then hey, YOU WON!        Who cares about those who did not help?
Two bits of hard-won wisdom here: It never hurts to ask.  Never lose a battle that you have not joined yet.

[giantkiller]

Tesla drives are very expensive. Right now. I found 057 tech? Their 400+hp version. With controller. $7,999. Sport + 686 hp  must call for price. Only weighs 291lbs.
When it gets down to $3-4000. I'll have to put one in my smart. Should  only weigh 1400lbs with 686hp....

No one seems to be taking into account the cost and weight of the batteries to run them.

Noel

5 years ago used EV batteries where fairly cheap. From crashed hybrids.  But I'm sure now that everyone found out that EVs are fast. Those are probably not cheap anymore.