As soon as I bought my 85 FJ1100NC in 85 I ordered a genuine Yamaha service manual but I got a FJ1100L/LC instead of a FJ1100N/NC. The clerk assured me that there was no difference between the 1984 L/LC and 1985 N/NC so I accepted it, because he added that the N/NC was too new, that it's manual wasn't in print yet, or that Yamaha reserved the few available for authorized dealers/repair shops.
So I assume this manual does not show the torque value for the two bolts that hold the two halves of the caliper together, because it's of slightly different design, NO?
Anyway, does anyone know the proper torque spec for those two bolts?
TIA
JoBrCo
P.S. Randy, thanks for the speedy shipping on the pistons. :i_am_so_happy:
FJ Forever! :drinks:
Im of no help but i just tightened them as hard as i could while they were on the bench. Done 2500 km with no probs at all.
I think the Haynes or Clymer manual give it as 25 ft-lb. The GYSM does not recommend splitting the calipers. Yamaha doesn't offer a replacement seal for the halves.
BUT, I have seen a guy using a torque wrench strip one out because the long torque wrench had too much lever arm (repaired with Helicoils). Just use a standard 3/8th drive ratchet and tighten them until they feel tight enough.
There were minimal changes between the '84 and '85. Not enough to justify writing a whole new manual. The one update I specifically recall reading about was a slight change to the piston wrist pin location to reduce noise.
Quote from: Fj.itis on August 13, 2014, 04:50:35 PM
Im of no help but i just tightened them as hard as i could while they were on the bench. Done 2500 km with no probs at all.
Thanks Fj.itis, I appreciate your time and energy, though when working with aluminum, I fear one of us may be a Gorilla relative to the other, our built in torque wrench's measuring in different units. But that shall be my last resort!
So I take it everyone is in the same boat as me, in the dark, as to Yamaha's recommended torque value.
Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there; Randy?
I just love picking at his brain, it's so juicy! :pardon: ;)
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 13, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
Just use a standard 3/8th drive ratchet and tighten them until they feel tight enough.
Noel (Ribbert) is going to be all over you for that statement! :negative:
P.S., the shady tree garage torque procedure you've provided is exactly what I did on all 12 caliper bolts on two of my FJ's when I went through their calipers. No issues.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 13, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
I think the Haynes or Clymer manual give it as 25 ft-lb. The GYSM does not recommend splitting the calipers. Yamaha doesn't offer a replacement seal for the halves.
BUT, I have seen a guy using a torque wrench strip one out because the long torque wrench had too much lever arm (repaired with Helicoils). Just use a standard 3/8th drive ratchet and tighten them until they feel tight enough.
There were minimal changes between the '84 and '85. Not enough to justify writing a whole new manual. The one update I specifically recall reading about was a slight change to the piston wrist pin location to reduce noise.
Thanks Hooli,
I noticed that. Mine are still pliable, though stiff, no cracks, though there was a little glazing that I scraped off with an x-acto knife, not as if to slice, rather a backwards scraping motion. I did that so as to ensure a good rubber to aluminum seal, verified that their thickness was greater than the depth of their locating step, so as to be compressed. Covered them in clean fluid to ensure a vacuum seal and potentially make them more supple.
I noticed the torque wrench problem, earlier when I was torquing the banjos on the master cylinders, but I think it's a cheap (Harbor Freight) torque wrench design. It's one of those that clicks when value is reached. I think it's having a problem releasing after a previous torque at 60 ft lbs, far too great for banjos at 19 ft lbs, so I used an old metal rod flex pointer type wrench. Thank god my elbow torque wrench screamed, "TOO MUCH, TOO MUCH," It was indeed over-torqued, but not beyond no return. Maybe I should oil the inside of the wrench so it's more likely to release from previously set higher values, not a good situation!
Money is an issue, otherwise I'd own the dial type, and have them calibrated annually.
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on August 13, 2014, 05:30:53 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 13, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
Just use a standard 3/8th drive ratchet and tighten them until they feel tight enough.
Noel (Ribbert) is going to be all over you for that statement! :negative:
P.S., the shady tree garage torque procedure you've provided is exactly what I did on all 12 caliper bolts on two of my FJ's when I went through their calipers. No issues.
Thanks, FJ1100mjk, that resolve seems to be the popular consensus, because Yamaha decided we had no need to know. I'm thinking 25 ft lbs with the more reliable pointer torque wrench, because the bolts are much the same as the caliper mounting bolts.
For general guidelines on torque...where specs are not available, you can refer to any one of several bolt torque charts such as this one which specifically addresses aluminum:
(http://www.openbuilds.com/attachments/screw-torque-ratings-jpg.1228/)
There are a pile of them out there...this one addresses standard or fine thread pitch, plated or unplated and bolt grade as well:
(http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads14/Metric+Torque+Value+Chart1241792749.jpg)
There are even apps for your phone that let you plug in all the variables and will give you a recommended torque spec.
I'll add that if you are using a torque wrench that you can't trust to indicate when proper torque is reached, all bets are off and there's not much sense in even knowing the proper spec.
GYSM and Haynes both say to NOT split the calipers.
Although my Clymer is usually the last choice when needing to consult a manual, this time I agree with them about splitting the caliper when cleaning and service beyond simply replacing pads is necessary.
Torque is 25 ft-lb. On my last caliper rebuild, I hand tightened the assembly bolts then bolted the calipers back to their mounts on the forks (much better than clamping them in a vise) and hand torqued them with my ratchet.
I have several torque wrenches from Craftsman and Harbor Freight in both clicker and beam styles. For small stuff, I trust my hand. The long lever arm of a typical torque wrench can sometimes reduce the feel too much for my liking. The T wrench comes out for wheel axles, swingarm pivots and critical engine assemblies/ head and case bolts.
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on August 13, 2014, 05:30:53 PM
Noel (Ribbert) is going to be all over you for that statement! :negative:
There's always the old racer's rule of thumb:
"Tighten it until you feel the threads give, then back off 1/8th turn"
Quote from: Capn Ron on August 13, 2014, 06:21:14 PM
For general guidelines on torque...where specs are not available, you can refer to any one of several bolt torque charts such as this one which specifically addresses aluminum:
Capn Ron, thanks for the great generic torque charts. Great stuff.
Quote from: Capn Ron on August 13, 2014, 06:21:14 PMI'll add that if you are using a torque wrench that you can't trust to indicate when proper torque is reached, all bets are off and there's not much sense in even knowing the proper spec.
With this line, sarcasm or humor?
I have two FtLb torque wrench's, a click and a beam type, but want to get a dial type (expensive but very accurate) The click type is the one I was relying upon, but proved it could not be trusted at a lower value, after previously setting a higher value. The beam variety couldn't possibly have that type problem, there is no setting, just reading, though they're less accurate. In this case I'd rather use it so as to not over torque, because it's better to under torque, yes?
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 13, 2014, 07:07:36 PM
GYSM and Haynes both say to NOT split the calipers.
Although my Clymer is usually the last choice when needing to consult a manual, this time I agree with them about splitting the caliper when cleaning and service beyond simply replacing pads is necessary.
Torque is 25 ft-lb. On my last caliper rebuild, I hand tightened the assembly bolts then bolted the calipers back to their mounts on the forks (much better than clamping them in a vise) and hand torqued them with my ratchet.
I have several torque wrenches from Craftsman and Harbor Freight in both clicker and beam styles. For small stuff, I trust my hand. The long lever arm of a typical torque wrench can sometimes reduce the feel too much for my liking. The T wrench comes out for wheel axles, swingarm pivots and critical engine assemblies/ head and case bolts.
I agree Hooli! I'm rebuilding them, replacing both pistons and seals, so separating the two halves is the only way to truly inspect and clean them thoroughly. If need be, the seals between the two halves could be manufactured in several ways, but I won't need to.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 13, 2014, 07:11:31 PM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on August 13, 2014, 05:30:53 PM
Noel (Ribbert) is going to be all over you for that statement! :negative:
There's always the old racer's rule of thumb:
"Tighten it until you feel the threads give, then back off 1/8th turn"
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 13, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
BUT, I have seen a guy using a torque wrench strip one out because the long torque wrench had too much lever arm (repaired with Helicoils). Just use a standard 3/8th drive ratchet and tighten them until they feel tight enough.
Quote from: Fj.itis on August 13, 2014, 04:50:35 PM
Im of no help but i just tightened them as hard as i could while they were on the bench.
:dash2: :dash2: :dash2:
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on August 15, 2014, 09:24:45 AM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 13, 2014, 07:11:31 PM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on August 13, 2014, 05:30:53 PM
Noel (Ribbert) is going to be all over you for that statement! :negative:
There's always the old racer's rule of thumb:
"Tighten it until you feel the threads give, then back off 1/8th turn"
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 13, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
BUT, I have seen a guy using a torque wrench strip one out because the long torque wrench had too much lever arm (repaired with Helicoils). Just use a standard 3/8th drive ratchet and tighten them until they feel tight enough.
Quote from: Fj.itis on August 13, 2014, 04:50:35 PM
Im of no help but i just tightened them as hard as i could while they were on the bench.
:dash2: :dash2: :dash2:
Noel
I spot torque the fasteners...torque until you see spots.
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 13, 2014, 05:19:18 PM
So I take it everyone is in the same boat as me, in the dark, as to Yamaha's recommended torque value.
Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there.....
JoBrCo
For Goodness sake, it's just a bolt in a hole!
Noel
Ever wonder why the GYSM, Clymer and Haynes manuals all recommend not splitting the calipers?
Why are you splitting them anyway?
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on August 15, 2014, 11:00:44 AM
Why are you splitting them anyway?
Noel
I split uthem because they hadn't been serviced in decades. And it showed, once apart (some pistons were stubborn in their removals, what does that indicate?). Corrosion in the bores, residue. Cleaned everything up good (won't go into my method of cleaning up the bores, and pistons, and reuse of all seals, due to fears of backlash), and went with silicone fluid as the system fluid of choice. Results in braking feel and stopping were very noticeable. Also removed the rotors and cleaned them up with a Rotor Hone. All work including the install of EBC HH pads were worthwhile, and made a big difference in braking from the previous, neglected system. Surely not Blue or Gold Pots' performance, but like I said, very worthwhile for the efforts.
Quote from: FJscott on August 15, 2014, 09:57:54 AM
Quote from: ribbert on August 15, 2014, 09:24:45 AM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 13, 2014, 07:11:31 PM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on August 13, 2014, 05:30:53 PM
Noel (Ribbert) is going to be all over you for that statement! :negative:
There's always the old racer's rule of thumb:
"Tighten it until you feel the threads give, then back off 1/8th turn"
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 13, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
BUT, I have seen a guy using a torque wrench strip one out because the long torque wrench had too much lever arm (repaired with Helicoils). Just use a standard 3/8th drive ratchet and tighten them until they feel tight enough.
Quote from: Fj.itis on August 13, 2014, 04:50:35 PM
Im of no help but i just tightened them as hard as i could while they were on the bench.
:dash2: :dash2: :dash2:
Noel
I spot torque the fasteners...torque until you see spots.
I`m not sure why it happens so spontaneous with me sometimes, (the delivery, my mood or the content), but I got a real giggle outa this one. :rofl: :good2:
Thats why helicoils were invented for weekend hacks like me, not one to follow many rules.
Quote from: ribbert on August 15, 2014, 10:06:11 AM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 13, 2014, 05:19:18 PM
So I take it everyone is in the same boat as me, in the dark, as to Yamaha's recommended torque value.
Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there.....
JoBrCo
For Goodness sake, it's just a bolt in a hole!
Noel
Sorry Rib, but the front brake bolts and holes are the most important ones on the entire bike, IMHO! Especially since I'll have my wife as passenger a lot of the time. Each to their own though!
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: ribbert on August 15, 2014, 11:00:44 AM
Ever wonder why the GYSM, Clymer and Haynes manuals all recommend not splitting the calipers?
Why are you splitting them anyway?
Noel
I really don't care what they say as to splitting the calipers, Yamaha engineered split calipers, and if they go together they should be capable of splitting without problem, unless a voodoo priest or witch doctor put them together with some mojo I'm incapable of recreating, luckily I don't believe in that mystical stuff.
Like I've already stated, I've split them so I can easily and completely visually inspect and clean them, It's much easier than monkeying around with an inspection mirror in one hand, a pick in the other, and the caliper in the... ...well it seems I've run out of hands, what do you know?
Sorry about the sarcasm, but I really don't see what the problem is, as what can be done, can be undone, and redone, as long as one knows what was originally done.
Rib, honestly, what do you think is so special about that seal, as opposed to all the others, or is it just because Yamaha said so?
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 16, 2014, 08:26:29 PM
Quote from: ribbert on August 15, 2014, 10:06:11 AM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 13, 2014, 05:19:18 PM
So I take it everyone is in the same boat as me, in the dark, as to Yamaha's recommended torque value.
Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there.....
JoBrCo
For Goodness sake, it's just a bolt in a hole!
Noel
Sorry Rib, but the front brake bolts and holes are the most important ones on the entire bike, IMHO! Especially since I'll have my wife as passenger a lot of the time. Each to their own though!
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
JoBroCo, my apology if you misunderstood the point I was making. No way was I diminishing the importance of the bolt, you are absolutely correct, but like many here I have bug bears and one of them is attributing general automotive (or even non automotive) principles to being Yamaha/FJ/motorbike specific, such as tensioning a bolt in a hole. That, and the fact I don't generally agree with the "servicing" of calipers for the very reason you mention, the importance of them.
My reference was to the "Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there....." not to the importance of the bolts function.
Ignore me (just this once)
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on August 16, 2014, 09:00:06 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 16, 2014, 08:26:29 PM
Quote from: ribbert on August 15, 2014, 10:06:11 AM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 13, 2014, 05:19:18 PM
So I take it everyone is in the same boat as me, in the dark, as to Yamaha's recommended torque value.
Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there.....
JoBrCo
For Goodness sake, it's just a bolt in a hole!
Noel
Sorry Rib, but the front brake bolts and holes are the most important ones on the entire bike, IMHO! Especially since I'll have my wife as passenger a lot of the time. Each to their own though!
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
JoBroCo, my apology if you misunderstood the point I was making. No way was I diminishing the importance of the bolt, you are absolutely correct, but like many here I have bug bears and one of them is attributing general automotive (or even non automotive) principles to being Yamaha/FJ/motorbike specific, such as tensioning a bolt in a hole. That, and the fact I don't generally agree with the "servicing" of calipers for the very reason you mention, the importance of them.
My reference was to the "Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there....." not to the importance of the bolts function.
Ignore me (just this once)
Noel
No worries Rib, no need to apologize my friend, as two people understanding one another is in fact a two way street, where hopefully they meet exactly in the middle, each accountable for exactly half the misunderstanding; we only believe we speak the same language, dialect is everything.
Actually my being anal as to torque specs, has to do with my being a maintenance technician on multimillion dollar USN aircraft. I was in the USN for 16 years and believe it or not, had 4 different jobs, 3 of which were preventative maintenance related. As a civilian I was a machinist for a time, and an electronics technician, plus, yes you're correct, an automotive technician, though I was self taught, got to love work shop/service manuals, thanks to the USN, i.e., you couldn't perform a maintenance task without the technical pub handy. I'm a real jack of all trades, master of none! Just enough to get me in trouble! :dash2: Not to mention that my age is catching up with me, i.e., slow and forgetful! :cray:
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
I have stock calipers on my `92 ABS bike. My `90 has the blue-dot upgrade.
Night and day difference between the two, with the blue-dots (solid caliper) being WAY superior.
Why would one _EVEN BOTHER_ servicing stock calipers when such an improvement is readily, and CHEAPLY available?
Oops, I just realized that the subject bike has the wrong (earlier) forks for this mod.
Well, for the ultimate peace-of-mind of superior braking, those are some of the very first mods I would look into (later model forks/fork lowers and XXX-dot calipers).
Now that I've actually EXPERIENCED the difference, I HAVE to make this recommendation.
Ignore this advice at your own peril. Brakes can save your life. (Think of the CHILDREN, forgodsake!)
Steve
Quote from: Steve_in_Florida on August 16, 2014, 10:25:06 PM
I have stock calipers on my `92 ABS bike. My `90 has the blue-dot upgrade.
Night and day difference between the two, with the blue-dots (solid caliper) being WAY superior.
Why would one _EVEN BOTHER_ servicing stock calipers when such an improvement is readily, and CHEAPLY available?
Oops, I just realized that the subject bike has the wrong (earlier) forks for this mod.
Well, for the ultimate peace-of-mind of superior braking, those are some of the very first mods I would look into (later model forks/fork lowers and XXX-dot calipers).
Now that I've actually EXPERIENCED the difference, I HAVE to make this recommendation.
Ignore this advice at your own peril. Brakes can save your life. (Think of the CHILDREN, forgodsake!)
Steve
I'm with you buddy, now all I need is the money!
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 16, 2014, 10:35:28 PM
I'm with you buddy, now all I need is the money!
Think of the $$$ you saved by NOT buying a new bike from a dealer. There's your justification.
See, creative accounting principles can (might) fool the most discriminating wife!
Steve
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 16, 2014, 08:44:57 PM
I really don't care what they say as to splitting the calipers, Yamaha engineered split calipers, and if they go together they should be capable of splitting without problem, unless a voodoo priest or witch doctor put them together with some mojo I'm incapable of recreating, luckily I don't believe in that mystical stuff.
Like I've already stated, I've split them so I can easily and completely visually inspect and clean them, It's much easier than monkeying around with an inspection mirror in one hand, a pick in the other, and the caliper in the... ...well it seems I've run out of hands, what do you know?
Sorry about the sarcasm, but I really don't see what the problem is, as what can be done, can be undone, and redone, as long as one knows what was originally done.
Rib, honestly, what do you think is so special about that seal, as opposed to all the others, or is it just because Yamaha said so?
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
JoBoCo, you are right again, there is absolutely no problem splitting the calipers and rejoining them, theoretically!
The problem though is what many people do to them in the process and the methods they employ in "reconditioning" them.
Given I see it as an unnecessary service procedure I believe it is better left alone while it is working.
If they work and they don't leak, leave them. In the rare event that your caliper does require work, it will let you know, calipers don't just "let go" and suddenly leave you with no brakes.
Yamaha I suspect recommended not splitting them because with regular fluid changes they quite reasonably expected them to outlast the bike. Many of you probably own or have owned cars that have done hundreds of thousands of miles without touching the calipers (fed by rubber hoses that haven't split) with probably as much again left in them.
Does anyone here "service" their Blue Dots ?
Unlike M/C's or clutch slave cylinders, caliper piston seals don't move up and down the bore when the brakes are applied so there is virtually no wear.
For me, if they are working they do not need to be inspected and cleaned, but do change the fluid regularly.
Noel
All of the above is of course only my op ionion and I have absolutely no data to back up any of it.
Quote from: Steve_in_Florida on August 16, 2014, 10:51:34 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 16, 2014, 10:35:28 PM
I'm with you buddy, now all I need is the money!
Think of the $$$ you saved by NOT buying a new bike from a dealer. There's your justification.
See, creative accounting principles can (might) fool the most discriminating wife!
Steve
You don't understand I REALLY don't have enough money to do that right now, I wish I did. Very recently we lost our primary means of transportation, and I must complete this task of getting it running immediately, or we loose everything, meaning a job and then the house. We're really sweating bullets right now.
Quote from: ribbert on August 16, 2014, 11:28:04 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 16, 2014, 08:44:57 PM
I really don't care what they say as to splitting the calipers, Yamaha engineered split calipers, and if they go together they should be capable of splitting without problem, unless a voodoo priest or witch doctor put them together with some mojo I'm incapable of recreating, luckily I don't believe in that mystical stuff.
Like I've already stated, I've split them so I can easily and completely visually inspect and clean them, It's much easier than monkeying around with an inspection mirror in one hand, a pick in the other, and the caliper in the... ...well it seems I've run out of hands, what do you know?
Sorry about the sarcasm, but I really don't see what the problem is, as what can be done, can be undone, and redone, as long as one knows what was originally done.
Rib, honestly, what do you think is so special about that seal, as opposed to all the others, or is it just because Yamaha said so?
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
JoBoCo, you are right again, there is absolutely no problem splitting the calipers and rejoining them, theoretically!
The problem though is what many people do to them in the process and the methods they employ in "reconditioning" them.
Given I see it as an unnecessary service procedure I believe it is better left alone while it is working.
If they work and they don't leak, leave them. In the rare event that your caliper does require work, it will let you know, calipers don't just "let go" and suddenly leave you with no brakes.
Yamaha I suspect recommended not splitting them because with regular fluid changes they quite reasonably expected them to outlast the bike. Many of you probably own or have owned cars that have done hundreds of thousands of miles without touching the calipers (fed by rubber hoses that haven't split) with probably as much again left in them.
Does anyone here "service" their Blue Dots ?
Unlike M/C's or clutch slave cylinders, caliper piston seals don't move up and down the bore when the brakes are applied so there is virtually no wear.
For me, if they are working they do not need to be inspected and cleaned, but do change the fluid regularly.
Noel
All of the above is of course only my op ionion and I have absolutely no data to back up any of it.
I agree with you Rib, really I do, but these are not normal circumstances. These are the original brakes of a 1985 FJ1100. The only thing ever done was the changing of pads, and the flushing of hydraulic fluid, nothing else. The bike has sat for 19 years, 9 of those 19 outside under plastic tarps, under a soffit in the high humidity mid west, then the last 10 in a garage, that gets a little wet when it rains really hard and the drain, just outside the door, can't handle the flow.
Anyway the front brake pads were so thin when I parked her, 19 years ago that I can't believe it myself, you guys would shoot me if you saw them, that was me then, I don't know how I got so distracted, but I did. So the most piston that can be exposed, was exposed, to both moisture and dirt for 19 years, such that the base metal, steel, rusted through the pitting in the chrome. If I were to use those pistons, with new pads, they would have to be pressed all the way in to make room for the additional pad thickness, placing the exfoliated iron oxide, or the pits left after I smoothed them out, certainly beyond the first, dirt seal, and probably at least by some percentage past the front edge of the second, fluid seal, causing a machining action of those seals, and then you know what would happen; brake failure. Pistons, in this particular design, should be as smooth as a baby's skin, while the cylinders can be pitted. The clutch slave and all the masters are the other way around, the cylinders must be a smooth as a baby's skin, and the pistons can be pitted. On top of that, there was corrosion (aluminum -white and grey powder) and crystallized hydraulic fluid built up in the cylinders, even in the grooves for the seals. It's good I got all that crap out of there, and it really could not have been done as effectively, without separating the two halves. I actually inspected the grooves with a 10x coddington magnifying glass, try doing that 360 degrees around, with the two halves connected. And yes it was required. You would have to have seen them.
I seriously don't have the money to do the blue dot/fork lowers/etc conversion right now. And my need to get this bike running changed from being a hobby to a necessity, just 2 Fridays ago, 8 Aug 14, I believe either the head gasket blew, valves are burnt/bent or the engine is shot in our 2001 Honda Civic LX, i.e. major misfiring, running on 2 of 4, removed plugs major ash buildup, changed plugs, now runs on 3 of 4. No 1 not firing, fuel soaked plug, absolutely no compression whatsoever, the other 3 build up with each compression stroke to a higher than normal value, the two inner cylinders exactly the same @ 210 lbs, no 4 @ 208, no 1 @ 0. Has at least 150,000 miles on it. My son drove it over 500 miles with the oil filler cap off, that was about 20,000 miles ago, which started the valves tapping. I've got so much money in the bike now, that I can only make it my primary transportation until we can save up to fix the Civic. Hopefully before winter. Yeah we're dancing alright, our "brains are squirming like a toad." And no type of holiday will fix it.
I'm getting two new piston kits tomorrow, for the left caliper. Randy unfortunately only had 2 of them, which he sent me lickety-split several days ago, so the right is done. I wish everyone else had his speed at shipping.
Today I worked on the rear brake, master and caliper, the master was in really sad shape, it was so corroded just inside the e-clip/washer that the piston was pushed all the way in, and would not return, the corrosion mightier than the return spring. I honed it with aluminum-oxide abrasive on a dowel stick by hand, as I did all the masters. But the front brake master is the only one that I did a complete rebuild on, as well as the slaves, (calipers). The clutch and rear masters I just inspected, cleaned, honed, and reassembled, for now. The rear calipers had much thicker pads, so much more of the pistons were protected from the elements by the dirt seal. One had no pitting at all, the other had a slight bit, that I polished for now. I am worried about the clutch slave. I got a rebuild kit from RPM, (the 2 seals), but the cylinder is marred a bit, I polished it some but a couple scratches are pretty deep, I just feathered them out a bit, to lessen the machining action, for now. The steel piston was also pretty rusted, so I cleaned up the spots with some 400 grit wet/dry, and on the outer part, (where the dirt seal attaches), I used a Dremel with a wire brush attachment. Of course now the black anodized coating had been removed in spots, but I think it shall do for now.
Sorry Rib, I seemed to have been caught up in a rant, such is life @ well over 50, just under 60, at least for me.
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 17, 2014, 03:25:12 AM
I agree with you Rib, really I do, but these are not normal circumstances......
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Haha, I have been called a lot of things here but never
RibYou are right, these are not normal circumstances and in your case I understand the need to split them.
It's just that most people who split their calipers do so by choice rather than out of necessity with the misguided notion (IMO) that perfectly serviceable hydraulic cylinders will benefit from being pulled apart, fiddled with and put back together, like some sort of preventative service item. In my opinion, disassembling a cylinder, scratching up the bore and re using the same seal will work but for no where near as long as if it had been left alone (you're excluded under the circumstances)
I'm sorry you're having a tough time of it at the moment, life deals us these shitty hands sometimes. There are plenty here that understand first hand what that feels like with money, health and employment woes taking their toll.
There is however a bright spot in your life, you own an FJ and you found the forum.
500 miles without the filler cap eh, I'm surprised you got another 20,000 out of it.
Best of luck with the repairs.
Noel (aka Rib)
All of the above is of course only my opinion and I have absolutely no data, photos or video to back up any of it.
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 17, 2014, 01:43:51 AM
...Very recently we lost our primary means of transportation...
Sorry to hear that. Some have more $$$ than time (or sense).
I'm with you, closer to the other end of the spectrum!
If I had a spare set of OEM calipers for your model bike laying around, I'd send them to you.
Steve
Quote from: ribbert on August 17, 2014, 05:30:50 AM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 17, 2014, 03:25:12 AM
I agree with you Rib, really I do, but these are not normal circumstances......
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Haha, I have been called a lot of things here but never Rib
Shouldn`t that be "Bib"? (Cause Robert is called Bob!)...ummmm, oops, just realised that could stick! :pardon:
Quote from: Steve_in_Florida on August 17, 2014, 08:04:51 AM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 17, 2014, 01:43:51 AM
...Very recently we lost our primary means of transportation...
Sorry to hear that. Some have more $$$ than time (or sense).
I'm with you, closer to the other end of the spectrum!
If I had a spare set of OEM calipers for your model bike laying around, I'd send them to you.
Steve
Already been there and done that, it didn't work out. I have a little help, though temporary, my sibling's car. But thanks for the moral support, it's always appreciated.
Have a good one, my friend!
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: ribbert on August 17, 2014, 05:30:50 AM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 17, 2014, 03:25:12 AM
I agree with you Rib, really I do, but these are not normal circumstances......
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Haha, I have been called a lot of things here but never Rib
Obviously just shortened ribbert to Rib, but that's not all bad; look at the bright side, a rib, according to Christians, is responsible for Shelia's, of course your mileage may vary; some have said they need to be pissed, to see that as a bright side. ;) Fair dinkum, mate!
Quote from: ribbert on August 17, 2014, 05:30:50 AMIt's just that most people who split their calipers do so by choice rather than out of necessity with the misguided notion (IMO) that perfectly serviceable hydraulic cylinders will benefit from being pulled apart, fiddled with and put back together, like some sort of preventative service item.
Yes I'm very familiar with, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and agree! There was evidence of paint bubbling up near seals.
Quote from: ribbert on August 17, 2014, 05:30:50 AMIn my opinion, disassembling a cylinder, scratching up the bore and re using the same seal will work but for no where near as long as if it had been left alone (you're excluded under the circumstances)
I agree that new seals are required, the old ones are temporary, as my current dilemma insists, and don't think I won't stress test the brakes before putting my wife on the rear, then driving conservatively, even avoiding the expressways, taking smaller streets instead, sure more stop and go, but at lower speeds, and I can finesse a stop if I feel the need.
Quote from: ribbert on August 17, 2014, 05:30:50 AMI'm sorry you're having a tough time of it at the moment, life deals us these shitty hands sometimes. There are plenty here that understand first hand what that feels like with money, health and employment woes taking their toll.
I'm sure. Yeah, you know what they say, "you're born, shit happens, then you die!" :hang1: Good and bad times are a dichotomy, you can't have one without the other, as they define one another! Boy, am I going to have some real happiness soon! ;)
Quote from: ribbert on August 17, 2014, 05:30:50 AMThere is however a bright spot in your life, you own an FJ and you found the forum.
Exactly! Just got to focus on that image of me, lean and mean, (been losing weight during this project), on a cherry '85 FJ1100 in top form, cruising through canyons, on sweepers, seeing nature at a 45° angle. :yahoo: And of course, the guys of the forum have been great!
Quote from: ribbert on August 17, 2014, 05:30:50 AM500 miles without the filler cap eh, I'm surprised you got another 20,000 out of it.
Tell me about it, the oil didn't even register on the dipstick, but check this out, believe it or not, the filler cap was nestled amongst the engines wires and what not, for his entire trip, I couldn't believe it. All I needed was copious amounts of oil, the cap just laying there. If I remember correctly, it was a little over 2 quarts low. The valve cover and engine was a mess. :( He's my son, what are you gonna do? I rubbed it in, quite a bit though, I don't think he'll make that mistake again.
Quote from: ribbert on August 17, 2014, 05:30:50 AMBest of luck with the repairs.
Noel (aka Rib)
Yep, thanks, gonna need it!
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 13, 2014, 05:19:18 PM
Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there; Randy?
JoBrCo
Well, I am not a "certified" Yamaha technician, but...
I torque all of my caliper rebuilds to 25 ft lb. I also use a ARP thread compound on all bolts that I am going to apply proper torque to with a calibrated torque wrench; http://arp-bolts.com/p/arpultratorque.php (http://arp-bolts.com/p/arpultratorque.php)
I came to that number, because it is not listed in the GYSM, when I disassembled them via a torque wrench as long as the bolt is not seized, they break free at 25-30 ft lb.
FYI, there is no reason to "rebuild" anything without a complete disassembly. This is required for proper cleaning, inspection for issues and reassembly. Don't be afraid to split the calipers for proper inspecting and cleaning of the transfer port and the piston & seal bores.
That holds the same for calipers, carbs, master cylinders & engine.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on August 17, 2014, 01:22:07 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 13, 2014, 05:19:18 PM
Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there; Randy?
JoBrCo
I came to that number, because it is not listed in the GYSM, when I disassembled them via a torque wrench as long as the bolt is not seized, they break free at 25-30 ft lb.
I was taught that one shouldn't use a torque wrench that way, but that's a good idea, and it shall specify an absolute max, surely closer than not knowing at all what they did on the assembly line in Japan. I wish I'd thought of it. Good tip Randy! And I shall use it from now on.
Actually I have my eye on a dial torque wrench line, that's somewhat affordable, but it shall have to wait, for obvious reasons. But once I get one, it shall be sent out at least yearly for proper calibration, just like I was taught in the USN, accept I believe they did it every 6 months, (lots of usage), it's the smart thing to do.
In AOCS (Aviation Officer Candidate School) I saw a plaque on the wall, with a quote that has stuck with me, "Flying isn't inherently dangerous, It's just terribly unforgiving." I see that the same can be true of motorcycles in tip top shape and a well seasoned rider, so I torque.
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 17, 2014, 02:15:50 PM
I was taught that one shouldn't use a torque wrench that way,
Actually I have my eye on a dial torque wrench line, that's somewhat affordable, but it shall have to wait, for obvious reasons.
JoBrCo
Well, it depends on the type of wrench used...
I do not use any type of torque wrench that uses springs or dials. I grew up the son of an automotive mechanics, and later "technicians", teacher/instructor who constantly was involved in current training. One of the semi annual training locations also had a torque wrench calibration station and all instructors could bring their torque wrenches for inspection & calibration.
I only use beam type torque wrenches for several reasons.
"Clicker" style wrenches have springs and moving parts internally that need to be replaced and serviced. The springs change due to use, temperature and dirt/debris. The pivots within those wrenches also need to be lubed as the lube breaks down over time and the friction over the internal parts of the wrench change. When was the last time anyone on this or any forum disassembled their clicker for proper maintenance to ensure proper torque values.
Dial type wrenches are great and accurate, until...it gets dropped once. They also work on a torsion bar and internal pivots/gears that are affected by use/dirt/lube quality.
The beam wrenches that my dad took up during these training opportunities all came back within 1% of the pointer indicated measurement. The beam & dial wrenches could be odd as much as 20% prior to servicing.
Beam wrenches allow for the torque of left hand thread bolts and for use when
disassembling parts, and that is what I do on a regular basis. The torque value is also consistent as the "length" of the wrench does not change.
The floating pivot handle, when kept centered during torquing means the torque applied to the bolt is the same no matter when is using the wrench. If you use a clicker/dial type wrench the torque value changes based on your hand position upon the wrench.
And finally, people torque the bolts "too fast" when using a clicker wrench. You can pull it hard & fast and the torque is much different than you think it really is. When using a beam wrench, you torque up slowly as you have to watch the needle to see where you are torquing too.
I bought a Snap-On digital torque wrench several years ago as it uses a strain gauge instead of pivots/spring and the torque applied by my beam wrench is the same as that high dollar digital wrench which stays in the plastic case since my beam wrench is what I am the most comfortable using.
Go down to Sears and you can buy a 1/2 drive beam style torque wrench for under $25.00 which will allow you do everything you need to do.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on August 17, 2014, 03:02:04 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 17, 2014, 02:15:50 PM
I was taught that one shouldn't use a torque wrench that way,
Actually I have my eye on a dial torque wrench line, that's somewhat affordable, but it shall have to wait, for obvious reasons.
JoBrCo
Well, it depends on the type of wrench used...
I do not use any type of torque wrench that uses springs or dials. I grew up the son of an automotive mechanics, and later "technicians", teacher/instructor who constantly was involved in current training. One of the semi annual training locations also had a torque wrench calibration station and all instructors could bring their torque wrenches for inspection & calibration.
I only use beam type torque wrenches for several reasons.
"Clicker" style wrenches have springs and moving parts internally that need to be replaced and serviced. The springs change due to use, temperature and dirt/debris. The pivots within those wrenches also need to be lubed as the lube breaks down over time and the friction over the internal parts of the wrench change. When was the last time anyone on this or any forum disassembled their clicker for proper maintenance to ensure proper torque values.
Dial type wrenches are great and accurate, until...it gets dropped once. They also work on a torsion bar and internal pivots/gears that are affected by use/dirt/lube quality.
The beam wrenches that my dad took up during these training opportunities all came back within 1% of the pointer indicated measurement. The beam & dial wrenches could be odd as much as 20% prior to servicing.
Beam wrenches allow for the torque of left hand thread bolts and for use when disassembling parts, and that is what I do on a regular basis. The torque value is also consistent as the "length" of the wrench does not change.
The floating pivot handle, when kept centered during torquing means the torque applied to the bolt is the same no matter when is using the wrench. If you use a clicker/dial type wrench the torque value changes based on your hand position upon the wrench.
And finally, people torque the bolts "too fast" when using a clicker wrench. You can pull it hard & fast and the torque is much different than you think it really is. When using a beam wrench, you torque up slowly as you have to watch the needle to see where you are torquing too.
I bought a Snap-On digital torque wrench several years ago as it uses a strain gauge instead of pivots/spring and the torque applied by my beam wrench is the same as that high dollar digital wrench which stays in the plastic case since my beam wrench is what I am the most comfortable using.
Go down to Sears and you can buy a 1/2 drive beam style torque wrench for under $25.00 which will allow you do everything you need to do.
Randy - RPM
I hear you Randy, I actually have two beams, one in foot and the other in inch pounds. I'm having over torque problems with my, one and only, click ftlb wrench. I do like the beams for durability, and the reverse threads issue, though I myself, very seldom see them. Pulling by that handle pivot point is how one maintains accuracy, as the length of the lever is how the torque is calculated. I guess you know that to use extensions reduces accuracy as well, through torsion.
But honestly as of 1991 the USN used the dial type, exclusively, due to their extreme accuracy, on everything including jet engines. And you're right, you can't drop them, or off to calibration labs they go. They send them out to be calibrated at particular intervals, a sticker is placed across the back with the calibration and expiration date, such that they cannot be opened without breaking the seal. They do in fact take jet engine maintenance seriously.
I bet NASA uses dials/digital's as well. Today the Navy probably uses them too, digital's that is, but you can bet in both cases they are calibrated regularly.
Another note, back in the late 70's, early 80's, when I worked as a machinist, our most accurate gauges, dial bore gauges, and dial indicators, were accurate down to the half thousandths (.0005). Some digital calipers that were Swiss made, (Swiss movements), were just starting to be seen, which were extremely accurate for that time. I'm sure if they don't use lasers yet, they will some day.
Proper torque is important though, so says the engineers that designed the FJ, and you gotta trust them, right? ;) (With your life!)
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Several years ago installing a large AMERICAN transformer the torque specs for the terminals were only given in nm's. Our torque wrench only had inch/ft lb calibration and I did not even know what a nm was. Found out Newton Meters is the metric unit of torque measurement. What the *&@#$ is this doing on an american manufactured transformer? Had to get a torque wrench that also had nm calibrations. I expect to see more and more of this. Dave
I'm with Randy on the beam type torque wrenches. I have a couple of the type he favours and three of these.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5580/14955548445_c411a756cf_c.jpg)
I like these because of the four indicators, you can feel the pin release with your thumb, you can hear it, you can see it and you can roughly gauge how near you are. I nearly always rely on feeling it release when the tension is reached.
They keep their accuracy and I will never understand why so many tried to re invent the wheel with all these complicated, multi part wrenches, many of which are cheaply made.
The beam wrenches may not be up to scratch for jet engines with ft/lbs measured to 3 decimal places but they're just dandy for automotive work, and keep their accuracy.
But..... the accuracy of one over the other is lost if you don't know how to use one or understand the basics of bolt/nut tensioning, the effects of fluid vs dynamic friction and so on.
The sort of things we torque to spec on motorbikes and cars is fairly forgiving but if you're going to talk the accuracy of type A over type B wrench there's not much point unless you know how to use one.
Randy, I agree in theory with you saying there is nothing wrong with splitting calipers, master and slave cylinders, although I don't agree with the need to, but you have overlooked the reality of this practice, the things many people do to them when they're apart.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on August 18, 2014, 09:26:49 AM
I'm with Randy on the beam type torque wrenches. I have a couple of the type he favours and three of these.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5580/14955548445_c411a756cf_c.jpg)
I like these because of the four indicators, you can feel the pin release with your thumb, you can hear it, you can see it and you can roughly gauge how near you are. I nearly always rely on feeling it release when the tension is reached.
They keep their accuracy and I will never understand why so many tried to re invent the wheel with all these complicated, multi part wrenches, many of which are cheaply made.
The beam wrenches may not be up to scratch for jet engines with ft/lbs measured to 3 decimal places but they're just dandy for automotive work, and keep their accuracy.
But..... the accuracy of one over the other is lost if you don't know how to use one or understand the basics of bolt/nut tensioning, the effects of fluid vs dynamic friction and so on.
The sort of things we torque to spec on motorbikes and cars is fairly forgiving but if you're going to talk the accuracy of type A over type B wrench there's not much point unless you know how to use one.
Randy, I agree in theory with you saying there is nothing wrong with splitting calipers, master and slave cylinders, although I don't agree with the need to, but you have overlooked the reality of this practice, the things many people do to them when they're apart.
Noel
That's a real interesting looking torque wrench! An antique? Circa? Never seen anything quite like that before, it's a shame it's limited to 80 FtLb's or less. The rear axle is torqued at 110 FtLb's. Max for the FJ?
Actually Jet engines don't get torqued to any decimal places, it's not about that. It's about being able to count on the accuracy of the torque wrench, that's all that matters. You'd probably be surprised at the inaccuracy that can be found in various torque wrench's (TW).
Randy was correct when he said that he has his calibrated every so often. One cannot rely on a TW's accuracy unless it's calibrated, because they do in fact loose their accuracy with use; things wear, beams bend, metal can actually become hardened with repeated bending, thus bending less, things become loose, etc.
Actually the beam type can only be calibrated for use in one direction, at least for any calibration technique I've ever seen. I've only ever seen the bending of the indicator arm to point to a position either below or above zero, to be used as zero, for the beam type TW. And even then they are usually only made accurate to the mean value of it's full range. That's why they're not good enough for use on Jet Engines.
In the past, the dial type TW has been the most consistently accurate, throughout it's entire torque range, as long as it's not dropped or otherwise damaged. Even then it should be calibrated at regular intervals to assure consistent accuracy for the long term.
FJ FOrever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: JoBrCo on August 21, 2014, 03:25:29 PM
Quote from: ribbert on August 18, 2014, 09:26:49 AM
That's a real interesting looking torque wrench! An antique? Circa? Never seen anything quite like that before, it's a shame it's limited to 80 FtLb's or less. The rear axle is torqued at 110 FtLb's. Max for the FJ?
That's why I have 3 of them, a 220 ft/lb one, the one pictured above and a tiny in/lb one that looks too small to be away from it's mother for doing automatic transmissions.
I'm surprised you have not seen one. They were all I ever saw in widespread use here. I google imaged torque wrenches a few minutes ago and found plenty on there, all though not as well represented as the other types. As you probably figured out, you push the pin in and when the bar touches the button, the pin pops out. I like them because it doesn't rely on having to see the wrench when using it which is probably more an advantage on cars than it is on bikes. even so it is very handy not having to look at it.
They are made by Warren & Brown who are major manufacturers of precision measuring equipment. While mine are probably 40 years old, no way are they antiques and they are still widely available and very popular. They are renowned for there accuracy.
One of the subjects in my apprenticeship was machine shop and we had to choose a project to complete the course, I made a 220 ft/lb one of these from scratch, every single part of it. I was very proud of that but it was stolen along with all my other tools many years ago.
Noel