Torque spec for OEM, caliper half, joining bolts?

[Steve_in_Florida]

...Very recently we lost our primary means of transportation...

Sorry to hear that. Some have more $$$ than time (or sense).

I'm with you, closer to the other end of the spectrum!

If I had a spare set of OEM calipers for your model bike laying around, I'd send them to you.

Steve

[The General]

I agree with you Rib, really I do, but these are not normal circumstances......
FJ Forever!  

JoBrCo

Haha, I have been called a lot of things here but never Rib

Shouldn`t that be "Bib"? (Cause Robert is called Bob!)...ummmm, oops, just realised that could stick! 

[JoBrCo]

...Very recently we lost our primary means of transportation...

Sorry to hear that. Some have more $$$ than time (or sense).

I'm with you, closer to the other end of the spectrum!

If I had a spare set of OEM calipers for your model bike laying around, I'd send them to you.

Steve

Already been there and done that, it didn't work out.  I have a little help, though temporary, my sibling's car.  But thanks for the moral support, it's always appreciated.

Have a good one, my friend!


FJ Forever! 

JoBrCo

[JoBrCo]

I agree with you Rib, really I do, but these are not normal circumstances......
FJ Forever!  

JoBrCo

Haha, I have been called a lot of things here but never Rib

Obviously just shortened ribbert to Rib, but that's not all bad; look at the bright side, a rib, according to Christians, is responsible for Shelia's, of course your mileage may vary; some have said they need to be pissed, to see that as a bright side.   Fair dinkum, mate!

It's just that most people who split their calipers do so by choice rather than out of necessity with the misguided notion (IMO) that perfectly serviceable hydraulic cylinders will benefit from being pulled apart, fiddled with and put back together, like some sort of preventative service item.

Yes I'm very familiar with, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and agree! There was evidence of paint bubbling up near seals.

In my opinion, disassembling a cylinder, scratching up the bore and re using the same seal will work but for no where near as long as if it had been left alone (you're excluded under the circumstances)

I agree that new seals are required, the old ones are temporary, as my current dilemma insists, and don't think I won't stress test the brakes before putting my wife on the rear, then driving conservatively, even avoiding the expressways, taking smaller streets instead, sure more stop and go, but at lower speeds, and I can finesse a stop if I feel the need.  

I'm sorry you're having a tough time of it at the moment, life deals us these shitty hands sometimes. There are plenty here that understand first hand what that feels like with money, health and employment woes taking their toll.

I'm sure.  Yeah, you know what they say, "you're born, shit happens, then you die!"    Good and bad times are a dichotomy, you can't have one without the other, as they define one another!  Boy, am I going to have some real happiness soon!

There is however a bright spot in your life, you own an FJ and you found the forum.

Exactly!  Just got to focus on that image of me, lean and mean, (been losing weight during this project), on a cherry '85 FJ1100 in top form, cruising through canyons, on sweepers, seeing nature at a 45° angle.   And of course, the guys of the forum have been great!

500 miles without the filler cap eh, I'm surprised you got another 20,000 out of it.

Tell me about it, the oil didn't even register on the dipstick, but check this out, believe it or not, the filler cap was nestled amongst the engines wires and what not, for his entire trip, I couldn't believe it. All I needed was copious amounts of oil, the cap just laying there. If I remember correctly, it was a little over 2 quarts low. The valve cover and engine was a mess. He's my son, what are you gonna do? I rubbed it in, quite a bit though, I don't think he'll make that mistake again.  

Best of luck with the repairs.

Noel (aka Rib)

Yep, thanks, gonna need it!


FJ Forever!  

JoBrCo

[racerrad8]

Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there; Randy?
JoBrCo

Well, I am not a "certified" Yamaha technician, but...

I torque all of my caliper rebuilds to 25 ft lb. I also use a ARP thread compound on all bolts that I am going to apply proper torque to with a calibrated torque wrench; http://arp-bolts.com/p/arpultratorque.php

I came to that number, because it is not listed in the GYSM, when I disassembled them via a torque wrench as long as the bolt is not seized, they break free at 25-30 ft lb.

FYI, there is no reason to "rebuild" anything without a complete disassembly. This is required for proper cleaning, inspection for issues and reassembly. Don't be afraid to split the calipers for proper inspecting and cleaning of the transfer port and the piston & seal bores.

That holds the same for calipers, carbs, master cylinders & engine.

Randy - RPM

[JoBrCo]

Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there; Randy?
JoBrCo

I came to that number, because it is not listed in the GYSM, when I disassembled them via a torque wrench as long as the bolt is not seized, they break free at 25-30 ft lb.

I was taught that one shouldn't use a torque wrench that way, but that's a good idea, and it shall specify an absolute max, surely closer than not knowing at all what they did on the assembly line in Japan.  I wish I'd thought of it.  Good tip Randy!  And I shall use it from now on.

Actually I have my eye on a dial torque wrench line, that's somewhat affordable, but it shall have to wait, for obvious reasons.  But once I get one, it shall be sent out at least yearly for proper calibration, just like I was taught in the USN, accept I believe they did it every 6 months, (lots of usage), it's the smart thing to do.

In AOCS (Aviation Officer Candidate School) I saw a plaque on the wall, with a quote that has stuck with me, "Flying isn't inherently dangerous, It's just terribly unforgiving."  I see that the same can be true of motorcycles in tip top shape and a well seasoned rider, so I torque.

FJ Forever! 

JoBrCo     

[racerrad8]

I was taught that one shouldn't use a torque wrench that way,

Actually I have my eye on a dial torque wrench line, that's somewhat affordable, but it shall have to wait, for obvious reasons.

JoBrCo     

Well, it depends on the type of wrench used...

I do not use any type of torque wrench that uses springs or dials. I grew up the son of an automotive mechanics, and later "technicians", teacher/instructor who constantly was involved in current training. One of the semi annual training locations also had a torque wrench calibration station and all instructors could bring their torque wrenches for inspection & calibration.

I only use beam type torque wrenches for several reasons.

"Clicker" style wrenches have springs and moving parts internally that need to be replaced and serviced. The springs change due to use, temperature and dirt/debris. The pivots within those wrenches also need to be lubed as the lube breaks down over time and the friction over the internal parts of the wrench change. When was the last time anyone on this or any forum disassembled their clicker for proper maintenance to ensure proper torque values.

Dial type wrenches are great and accurate, until...it gets dropped once. They also work on a torsion bar and internal pivots/gears that are affected by use/dirt/lube quality.

The beam wrenches that my dad took up during these training opportunities all came back within 1% of the pointer indicated measurement. The beam & dial wrenches could be odd as much as 20% prior to servicing.

Beam wrenches allow for the torque of left hand thread bolts and for use when disassembling parts, and that is what I do on a regular basis. The torque value is also consistent as the "length" of the wrench does not change.

The floating pivot handle, when kept centered during torquing means the torque applied to the bolt is the same no matter when is using the wrench. If you use a clicker/dial type wrench the torque value changes based on your hand position upon the wrench.

And finally, people torque the bolts "too fast" when using a clicker wrench. You can pull it hard & fast and the torque is much different than you think it really is. When using a beam wrench, you torque up slowly as you have to watch the needle to see where you are torquing too.

I bought a Snap-On digital torque wrench several years ago as it uses a strain gauge instead of pivots/spring and the torque applied by my beam wrench is the same as that high dollar digital wrench which stays in the plastic case since my beam wrench is what I am the most comfortable using.

Go down to Sears and you can buy a 1/2 drive beam style torque wrench for under $25.00 which will allow you do everything you need to do.

Randy - RPM

[JoBrCo]

I was taught that one shouldn't use a torque wrench that way,

Actually I have my eye on a dial torque wrench line, that's somewhat affordable, but it shall have to wait, for obvious reasons.

JoBrCo     

Well, it depends on the type of wrench used...

I do not use any type of torque wrench that uses springs or dials. I grew up the son of an automotive mechanics, and later "technicians", teacher/instructor who constantly was involved in current training. One of the semi annual training locations also had a torque wrench calibration station and all instructors could bring their torque wrenches for inspection & calibration.

I only use beam type torque wrenches for several reasons.

"Clicker" style wrenches have springs and moving parts internally that need to be replaced and serviced. The springs change due to use, temperature and dirt/debris. The pivots within those wrenches also need to be lubed as the lube breaks down over time and the friction over the internal parts of the wrench change. When was the last time anyone on this or any forum disassembled their clicker for proper maintenance to ensure proper torque values.

Dial type wrenches are great and accurate, until...it gets dropped once. They also work on a torsion bar and internal pivots/gears that are affected by use/dirt/lube quality.

The beam wrenches that my dad took up during these training opportunities all came back within 1% of the pointer indicated measurement. The beam & dial wrenches could be odd as much as 20% prior to servicing.

Beam wrenches allow for the torque of left hand thread bolts and for use when disassembling parts, and that is what I do on a regular basis. The torque value is also consistent as the "length" of the wrench does not change.

The floating pivot handle, when kept centered during torquing means the torque applied to the bolt is the same no matter when is using the wrench. If you use a clicker/dial type wrench the torque value changes based on your hand position upon the wrench.

And finally, people torque the bolts "too fast" when using a clicker wrench. You can pull it hard & fast and the torque is much different than you think it really is. When using a beam wrench, you torque up slowly as you have to watch the needle to see where you are torquing too.

I bought a Snap-On digital torque wrench several years ago as it uses a strain gauge instead of pivots/spring and the torque applied by my beam wrench is the same as that high dollar digital wrench which stays in the plastic case since my beam wrench is what I am the most comfortable using.

Go down to Sears and you can buy a 1/2 drive beam style torque wrench for under $25.00 which will allow you do everything you need to do.

Randy - RPM

I hear you Randy, I actually have two beams, one in foot and the other in inch pounds.  I'm having over torque problems with my, one and only, click ftlb wrench. I do like the beams for durability, and the reverse threads issue, though I myself, very seldom see them.  Pulling by that handle pivot point is how one maintains accuracy, as the length of the lever is how the torque is calculated.  I guess you know that to use extensions reduces accuracy as well, through torsion.

But honestly as of 1991 the USN used the dial type, exclusively, due to their extreme accuracy, on everything including jet engines.  And you're right, you can't drop them, or off to calibration labs they go.  They send them out to be calibrated at particular intervals, a sticker is placed across the back with the calibration and expiration date, such that they cannot be opened without breaking the seal.  They do in fact take jet engine maintenance seriously.

I bet NASA uses dials/digital's as well.  Today the Navy probably uses them too, digital's that is, but you can bet in both cases they are calibrated regularly.

Another note, back in the late 70's, early 80's, when I worked as a machinist, our most accurate gauges, dial bore gauges, and dial indicators, were accurate down to the half thousandths (.0005).  Some digital calipers that were Swiss made, (Swiss movements), were just starting to be seen, which were extremely accurate for that time.  I'm sure if they don't use lasers yet, they will some day. 

Proper torque is important though, so says the engineers that designed the FJ, and you gotta trust them, right? (With your life!)


FJ Forever! 

JoBrCo

[TexasDave]

Several years ago installing a large AMERICAN transformer the torque specs for the terminals were only given in nm's. Our torque wrench only had inch/ft lb calibration and I did not even know what a nm was. Found out Newton Meters is the metric unit of torque measurement. What the *&@#$ is this doing on an american manufactured transformer? Had to get a torque wrench that also had nm calibrations. I expect to see more and more of this. Dave

[ribbert]

I'm with Randy on the beam type torque wrenches. I have a couple of the type he favours and three of these.



I like these because of the four indicators, you can feel the pin release with your thumb, you can hear it, you can see it and you can roughly gauge how near you are. I nearly always rely on feeling it release when the tension is reached.
They keep their accuracy and I will never understand why so many tried to re invent the wheel with all these complicated, multi part wrenches, many of which are cheaply made.
The beam wrenches may not be up to scratch for jet engines with ft/lbs measured to 3 decimal places but they're just dandy for automotive work, and keep their accuracy.

But..... the accuracy of one over the other is lost if you don't know how to use one or understand the basics of bolt/nut tensioning, the effects of fluid vs dynamic friction and so on.

The sort of things we torque to spec on motorbikes and cars is fairly forgiving but if you're going to talk the accuracy of type A over type B wrench there's not much point unless you know how to use one.

Randy, I agree in theory with you saying there is nothing wrong with splitting calipers, master and slave cylinders, although I don't agree with the need to, but you have overlooked the reality of this practice, the things many people do to them when they're apart.

Noel

[JoBrCo]

I'm with Randy on the beam type torque wrenches. I have a couple of the type he favours and three of these.



I like these because of the four indicators, you can feel the pin release with your thumb, you can hear it, you can see it and you can roughly gauge how near you are. I nearly always rely on feeling it release when the tension is reached.
They keep their accuracy and I will never understand why so many tried to re invent the wheel with all these complicated, multi part wrenches, many of which are cheaply made.
The beam wrenches may not be up to scratch for jet engines with ft/lbs measured to 3 decimal places but they're just dandy for automotive work, and keep their accuracy.

But..... the accuracy of one over the other is lost if you don't know how to use one or understand the basics of bolt/nut tensioning, the effects of fluid vs dynamic friction and so on.

The sort of things we torque to spec on motorbikes and cars is fairly forgiving but if you're going to talk the accuracy of type A over type B wrench there's not much point unless you know how to use one.

Randy, I agree in theory with you saying there is nothing wrong with splitting calipers, master and slave cylinders, although I don't agree with the need to, but you have overlooked the reality of this practice, the things many people do to them when they're apart.

Noel

That's a real interesting looking torque wrench! An antique? Circa? Never seen anything quite like that before, it's a shame it's limited to 80 FtLb's or less. The rear axle is torqued at 110 FtLb's. Max for the FJ?

Actually Jet engines don't get torqued to any decimal places, it's not about that.  It's about being able to count on the accuracy of the torque wrench, that's all that matters.  You'd probably be surprised at the inaccuracy that can be found in various torque wrench's (TW).

Randy was correct when he said that he has his calibrated every so often.  One cannot rely on a TW's accuracy unless it's calibrated, because they do in fact loose their accuracy with use; things wear, beams bend, metal can actually become hardened with repeated bending, thus bending less, things become loose, etc.

Actually the beam type can only be calibrated for use in one direction, at least for any calibration technique I've ever seen. I've only ever seen the bending of the indicator arm to point to a position either below or above zero, to be used as zero, for the beam type TW.  And even then they are usually only made accurate to the mean value of it's full range.  That's why they're not good enough for use on Jet Engines.

In the past, the dial type TW has been the most consistently accurate, throughout it's entire torque range, as long as it's not dropped or otherwise damaged. Even then it should be calibrated at regular intervals to assure consistent accuracy for the long term.


FJ FOrever! 


JoBrCo

[ribbert]

That's a real interesting looking torque wrench! An antique? Circa? Never seen anything quite like that before, it's a shame it's limited to 80 FtLb's or less. The rear axle is torqued at 110 FtLb's. Max for the FJ?

That's why I have 3 of them, a 220 ft/lb one, the one pictured above and a tiny in/lb one that looks too small to be away from it's mother for doing automatic transmissions.

I'm surprised you have not seen one. They were all I ever saw in widespread use here. I google imaged torque wrenches a few minutes ago and found plenty on there, all though not as well represented as the other types. As you probably figured out, you push the pin in and when the bar touches the button, the pin pops out. I like them because it doesn't rely on having to see the wrench when using it which is probably more an advantage on cars than it is on bikes. even so it is very handy not having to look at it.

They are made by Warren & Brown who are major manufacturers of precision measuring equipment. While mine are probably 40 years old, no way are they antiques and they are still widely available and very popular. They are renowned for there accuracy.

One of the subjects in my apprenticeship was machine shop and we had to choose a project to complete the course, I made a 220 ft/lb one of these from scratch, every single part of it. I was very proud of that but it was stolen along with all my other tools many years ago.

Noel