Torque spec for OEM, caliper half, joining bolts?

[ribbert]

Ever wonder why the GYSM, Clymer and Haynes manuals all recommend not splitting the calipers?

Why are you splitting them anyway?

Noel

[FJ1100mjk]

Why are you splitting them anyway?

Noel

I split uthem because they hadn't been serviced in decades. And it showed, once apart (some pistons were stubborn in their removals, what does that indicate?). Corrosion in the bores, residue. Cleaned everything up good (won't go into my method of cleaning up the bores, and pistons, and reuse of all seals, due to fears of backlash), and went with silicone fluid as the system fluid of choice. Results in braking feel and stopping were very noticeable. Also removed the rotors and cleaned them up with a Rotor Hone. All work including the install of EBC HH pads were worthwhile, and made a big difference in braking from the previous, neglected system. Surely not Blue or Gold Pots' performance, but like I said, very worthwhile for the efforts.

[The General]

Noel (Ribbert) is going to be all over you for that statement! 

There's always the old racer's rule of thumb:

"Tighten it until you feel the threads give, then back off 1/8th turn"

BUT, I have seen a guy using a torque wrench strip one out because the long torque wrench had too much lever arm (repaired with Helicoils).  Just use a standard 3/8th drive ratchet and tighten them until they feel tight enough.

Im of no help but i just tightened them as hard as i could while they were on the bench.

Noel

I spot torque the fasteners...torque until you see spots.

I`m not sure why it happens so spontaneous with me sometimes, (the delivery, my mood or the content), but I got a real giggle outa this one. 

[Fj.itis]

Thats why helicoils were invented for weekend hacks like me, not one to follow many rules.

[JoBrCo]

So I take it everyone is in the same boat as me, in the dark, as to Yamaha's recommended torque value.

Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there.....
JoBrCo

For Goodness sake, it's just a bolt in a hole!

Noel

Sorry Rib, but the front brake bolts and holes are the most important ones on the entire bike, IMHO!  Especially since I'll have my wife as passenger a lot of the time.  Each to their own though!

FJ Forever! 

JoBrCo

[JoBrCo]

Ever wonder why the GYSM, Clymer and Haynes manuals all recommend not splitting the calipers?

Why are you splitting them anyway?

Noel

I really don't care what they say as to splitting the calipers, Yamaha engineered split calipers, and if they go together they should be capable of splitting without problem, unless a voodoo priest or witch doctor put them together with some mojo I'm incapable of recreating, luckily I don't believe in that mystical stuff.

Like I've already stated, I've split them so I can easily and completely visually inspect and clean them, It's much easier than monkeying around with an inspection mirror in one hand, a pick in the other, and the caliper in the... ...well it seems I've run out of hands, what do you know?

Sorry about the sarcasm, but I really don't see what the problem is, as what can be done, can be undone, and redone, as long as one knows what was originally done.

Rib, honestly, what do you think is so special about that seal, as opposed to all the others, or is it just because Yamaha said so?


FJ Forever! 

JoBrCo

[ribbert]

So I take it everyone is in the same boat as me, in the dark, as to Yamaha's recommended torque value.

Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there.....
JoBrCo

For Goodness sake, it's just a bolt in a hole!

Noel

Sorry Rib, but the front brake bolts and holes are the most important ones on the entire bike, IMHO!  Especially since I'll have my wife as passenger a lot of the time.  Each to their own though!

FJ Forever! 

JoBrCo

JoBroCo, my apology if you misunderstood the point I was making.  No way was I diminishing the importance of the bolt, you are absolutely correct, but like many here I have bug bears and one of them is attributing general automotive (or even non automotive) principles to being Yamaha/FJ/motorbike specific, such as tensioning a bolt in a hole. That, and the fact I don't generally agree with the "servicing" of calipers for the very reason you mention, the importance of them.

My reference was to the "Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there....." not to the importance of the bolts function.

Ignore me (just this once)

Noel

[JoBrCo]

So I take it everyone is in the same boat as me, in the dark, as to Yamaha's recommended torque value.

Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there.....
JoBrCo

For Goodness sake, it's just a bolt in a hole!

Noel

Sorry Rib, but the front brake bolts and holes are the most important ones on the entire bike, IMHO!  Especially since I'll have my wife as passenger a lot of the time.  Each to their own though!

FJ Forever!  

JoBrCo

JoBroCo, my apology if you misunderstood the point I was making.  No way was I diminishing the importance of the bolt, you are absolutely correct, but like many here I have bug bears and one of them is attributing general automotive (or even non automotive) principles to being Yamaha/FJ/motorbike specific, such as tensioning a bolt in a hole. That, and the fact I don't generally agree with the "servicing" of calipers for the very reason you mention, the importance of them.

My reference was to the "Any qualified Yamaha service technicians out there....." not to the importance of the bolts function.

Ignore me (just this once)

Noel

No worries Rib, no need to apologize my friend, as two people understanding one another is in fact a two way street, where hopefully they meet exactly in the middle, each accountable for exactly half the misunderstanding; we only believe we speak the same language, dialect is everything.

Actually my being anal as to torque specs, has to do with my being a maintenance technician on multimillion dollar USN aircraft.  I was in the USN for 16 years and believe it or not, had 4 different jobs, 3 of which were preventative maintenance related. As a civilian I was a machinist for a time, and an electronics technician, plus, yes you're correct, an automotive technician, though I was self taught, got to love work shop/service manuals, thanks to the USN, i.e., you couldn't perform a maintenance task without the technical pub handy.  I'm a real jack of all trades, master of none!  Just enough to get me in trouble!    Not to mention that my age is catching up with me, i.e., slow and forgetful!  


FJ Forever!  

JoBrCo

[Steve_in_Florida]

I have stock calipers on my `92 ABS bike. My `90 has the blue-dot upgrade.

Night and day difference between the two, with the blue-dots (solid caliper) being WAY superior.

Why would one _EVEN BOTHER_ servicing stock calipers when such an improvement is readily, and CHEAPLY available?

Oops, I just realized that the subject bike has the wrong (earlier) forks for this mod.

Well, for the ultimate peace-of-mind of superior braking, those are some of the very first mods I would look into (later model forks/fork lowers and XXX-dot calipers).

Now that I've actually EXPERIENCED the difference, I HAVE to make this recommendation.

Ignore this advice at your own peril. Brakes can save your life. (Think of the CHILDREN, forgodsake!)

Steve

[JoBrCo]

I have stock calipers on my `92 ABS bike. My `90 has the blue-dot upgrade.

Night and day difference between the two, with the blue-dots (solid caliper) being WAY superior.

Why would one _EVEN BOTHER_ servicing stock calipers when such an improvement is readily, and CHEAPLY available?

Oops, I just realized that the subject bike has the wrong (earlier) forks for this mod.

Well, for the ultimate peace-of-mind of superior braking, those are some of the very first mods I would look into (later model forks/fork lowers and XXX-dot calipers).

Now that I've actually EXPERIENCED the difference, I HAVE to make this recommendation.

Ignore this advice at your own peril. Brakes can save your life. (Think of the CHILDREN, forgodsake!)

Steve

I'm with you buddy, now all I need is the money!


FJ Forever! 

JoBrCo

[Steve_in_Florida]

I'm with you buddy, now all I need is the money!

Think of the $$$ you saved by NOT buying a new bike from a dealer. There's your justification.

See, creative accounting principles can (might) fool the most discriminating wife!

Steve

[ribbert]

I really don't care what they say as to splitting the calipers, Yamaha engineered split calipers, and if they go together they should be capable of splitting without problem, unless a voodoo priest or witch doctor put them together with some mojo I'm incapable of recreating, luckily I don't believe in that mystical stuff.

Like I've already stated, I've split them so I can easily and completely visually inspect and clean them, It's much easier than monkeying around with an inspection mirror in one hand, a pick in the other, and the caliper in the... ...well it seems I've run out of hands, what do you know?

Sorry about the sarcasm, but I really don't see what the problem is, as what can be done, can be undone, and redone, as long as one knows what was originally done.

Rib, honestly, what do you think is so special about that seal, as opposed to all the others, or is it just because Yamaha said so?


FJ Forever! 

JoBrCo

JoBoCo, you are right again, there is absolutely no problem splitting the calipers and rejoining them, theoretically!

The problem though is what many people do to them in the process and the methods they employ in "reconditioning" them.
Given I see it as an unnecessary service procedure I believe it is better left alone while it is working.
If they work and they don't leak, leave them. In the rare event that your caliper does require work, it will let you know, calipers don't just "let go" and suddenly leave you with no brakes.

Yamaha I suspect recommended not splitting them because with regular fluid changes they quite reasonably expected them to outlast the bike. Many of you probably own or have owned cars that have done hundreds of thousands of miles without touching the calipers (fed by rubber hoses that haven't split) with probably as much again left in them.

Does anyone here "service" their Blue Dots ?

Unlike M/C's or clutch slave cylinders, caliper piston seals don't move up and down the bore when the brakes are applied so there is virtually no wear.

For me, if they are working they do not need to be inspected and cleaned, but do change the fluid regularly.

Noel

All of the above is of course only my op ionion and I have absolutely no data to back up any of it.

[JoBrCo]

I'm with you buddy, now all I need is the money!

Think of the $$$ you saved by NOT buying a new bike from a dealer. There's your justification.

See, creative accounting principles can (might) fool the most discriminating wife!

Steve

You don't understand I REALLY don't have enough money to do that right now, I wish I did. Very recently we lost our primary means of transportation, and I must complete this task of getting it running immediately, or we loose everything, meaning a job and then the house.  We're really sweating bullets right now.

[JoBrCo]

I really don't care what they say as to splitting the calipers, Yamaha engineered split calipers, and if they go together they should be capable of splitting without problem, unless a voodoo priest or witch doctor put them together with some mojo I'm incapable of recreating, luckily I don't believe in that mystical stuff.

Like I've already stated, I've split them so I can easily and completely visually inspect and clean them, It's much easier than monkeying around with an inspection mirror in one hand, a pick in the other, and the caliper in the... ...well it seems I've run out of hands, what do you know?

Sorry about the sarcasm, but I really don't see what the problem is, as what can be done, can be undone, and redone, as long as one knows what was originally done.

Rib, honestly, what do you think is so special about that seal, as opposed to all the others, or is it just because Yamaha said so?


FJ Forever!  

JoBrCo

JoBoCo, you are right again, there is absolutely no problem splitting the calipers and rejoining them, theoretically!

The problem though is what many people do to them in the process and the methods they employ in "reconditioning" them.
Given I see it as an unnecessary service procedure I believe it is better left alone while it is working.
If they work and they don't leak, leave them. In the rare event that your caliper does require work, it will let you know, calipers don't just "let go" and suddenly leave you with no brakes.

Yamaha I suspect recommended not splitting them because with regular fluid changes they quite reasonably expected them to outlast the bike. Many of you probably own or have owned cars that have done hundreds of thousands of miles without touching the calipers (fed by rubber hoses that haven't split) with probably as much again left in them.

Does anyone here "service" their Blue Dots ?

Unlike M/C's or clutch slave cylinders, caliper piston seals don't move up and down the bore when the brakes are applied so there is virtually no wear.

For me, if they are working they do not need to be inspected and cleaned, but do change the fluid regularly.

Noel

All of the above is of course only my op ionion and I have absolutely no data to back up any of it.

I agree with you Rib, really I do, but these are not normal circumstances.  These are the original brakes of a 1985 FJ1100. The only thing ever done was the changing of pads, and the flushing of hydraulic fluid, nothing else.  The bike has sat for 19 years, 9 of those 19 outside under plastic tarps, under a soffit in the high humidity mid west, then the last 10 in a garage, that gets a little wet when it rains really hard and the drain, just outside the door, can't handle the flow.

Anyway the front brake pads were so thin when I parked her, 19 years ago that I can't believe it myself, you guys would shoot me if you saw them, that was me then, I don't know how I got so distracted, but I did.  So the most piston that can be exposed, was exposed, to both moisture and dirt for 19 years, such that the base metal, steel, rusted through the pitting in the chrome.  If I were to use those pistons, with new pads, they would have to be pressed all the way in to make room for the additional pad thickness, placing the exfoliated iron oxide, or the pits left after I smoothed them out, certainly beyond the first, dirt seal, and probably at least by some percentage past the front edge of the second, fluid seal, causing a machining action of those seals, and then you know what would happen; brake failure.  Pistons, in this particular design, should be as smooth as a baby's skin, while the cylinders can be pitted.  The clutch slave and all the masters are the other way around, the cylinders must be a smooth as a baby's skin, and the pistons can be pitted.  On top of that, there was corrosion (aluminum -white and grey powder) and crystallized hydraulic fluid built up in the cylinders, even in the grooves for the seals. It's good I got all that crap out of there, and it really could not have been done as effectively, without separating the two halves. I actually inspected the grooves with a 10x coddington magnifying glass, try doing that 360 degrees around, with the two halves connected.  And yes it was required. You would have to have seen them.

I seriously don't have the money to do the blue dot/fork lowers/etc conversion right now.  And my need to get this bike running changed from being a hobby to a necessity, just 2 Fridays ago, 8 Aug 14, I believe either the head gasket blew, valves are burnt/bent or the engine is shot in our 2001 Honda Civic LX, i.e. major misfiring, running on 2 of 4, removed plugs major ash buildup, changed plugs, now runs on 3 of 4. No 1 not firing, fuel soaked plug, absolutely no compression whatsoever, the other 3 build up with each compression stroke to a higher than normal value, the two inner cylinders exactly the same @ 210 lbs, no 4 @ 208, no 1 @ 0.  Has at least 150,000 miles on it.  My son drove it over 500 miles with the oil filler cap off, that was about 20,000 miles ago, which started the valves tapping.  I've got so much money in the bike now, that I can only make it my primary transportation until we can save up to fix the Civic.  Hopefully before winter.  Yeah we're dancing alright, our "brains are squirming like a toad."  And no type of holiday will fix it.

I'm getting two new piston kits tomorrow, for the left caliper.  Randy unfortunately only had 2 of them, which he sent me lickety-split several days ago, so the right is done.  I wish everyone else had his speed at shipping.

Today I worked on the rear brake, master and caliper, the master was in really sad shape, it was so corroded just inside the e-clip/washer that the piston was pushed all the way in, and would not return, the corrosion mightier than the return spring.  I honed it with aluminum-oxide abrasive on a dowel stick by hand, as I did all the masters.  But the front brake master is the only one that I did a complete rebuild on, as well as the slaves, (calipers).  The clutch and rear masters I just inspected, cleaned, honed, and reassembled, for now.  The rear calipers had much thicker pads, so much more of the pistons were protected from the elements by the dirt seal.  One had no pitting at all, the other had a slight bit, that I polished for now. I am worried about the clutch slave.  I got a rebuild kit from RPM, (the 2 seals), but the cylinder is marred a bit, I polished it some but a couple scratches are pretty deep, I just feathered them out a bit, to lessen the machining action, for now.  The steel piston was also pretty rusted, so I cleaned up the spots with some 400 grit wet/dry, and on the outer part, (where the dirt seal attaches), I used a Dremel with a wire brush attachment.  Of course now the black anodized coating had been removed in spots, but I think it shall do for now.  

Sorry Rib, I seemed to have been caught up in a rant, such is life @ well over 50, just under 60, at least for me.


FJ Forever!  

JoBrCo

[ribbert]

I agree with you Rib, really I do, but these are not normal circumstances......
FJ Forever!  

JoBrCo

Haha, I have been called a lot of things here but never Rib

You are right, these are not normal circumstances and in your case I understand the need to split them.

It's just that most people who split their calipers do so by choice rather than out of necessity with the misguided notion (IMO) that perfectly serviceable hydraulic cylinders will benefit from being pulled apart, fiddled with and put back together, like some sort of preventative service item. In my opinion, disassembling a cylinder, scratching up the bore and re using the same seal will work but for no where near as long as if it had been left alone (you're excluded under the circumstances)

I'm sorry you're having a tough time of it at the moment, life deals us these shitty hands sometimes. There are plenty here that understand first hand what that feels like with money, health and employment woes taking their toll.

There is however a bright spot in your life, you own an FJ and you found the forum.

500 miles without the filler cap eh, I'm surprised you got another 20,000 out of it.

Best of luck with the repairs.

Noel (aka Rib)


All of the above is of course only my opinion and I have absolutely no data, photos or video to back up any of it.