My Fuel Pump Crapped Out in South Dakota!!!

[movenon]

This is a great and safe mod to do ...with a clear filter mounted in a easy  safe place it will show us if we have contaminants

I have not been able to locate a clear filter that will filter up to at least 60 microns. I THINK the stock Yamaha filter is good to 61 microns. Don't hold me to tight to that. Information on that is hard for me to come by. The Facet / Purolator filter is at 71 microns. That is recommended by Facet due to tight clearances.  I would not hesitate to use a factory Yamaha filter either. They just cost more. It is difficult to find a high micron level of a fuel filter at a reasonable price. If you want to spend a lot of money there are 100 micron filters out there.

I also think the Facet/Purolator filter is a  Purolator F10131. Unproven and untested.. Yet....  Facet - Purolator same , same.... A court action split the product lines up.

The cheap clear filters are down around 2 -10 microns, some are worse. The Facet/Purolator filter at less than 10.00 (more like 5-8.00) are a good value. You can change them out easy and cheaply. They screw right into the pump inlet. One side is 1/8 pipe thread and the other I think is for 5/16 hose.

The next nice thing to have is a fuel pressure gage   Then you would know when to think about a new filter....
As a note I have one in my diesel truck,  indicates fuel restriction (plugged filter) or possable impending lift pump failure. To bulky for a bike but something to think about.....

George

[Klavdy]

George,
you are a living treasure, mate.
You really are and there's a few other blokes on this site with a similar depth of technical knowledge.
It's a disappearing thing, men with real world mechanical smarts that can back it up with more than impressive qualifications and deep technical knowledge.
We've got Aircraft guys, Submarine guys, engine guys, motor guys and it's continually impressive to see you posting stuff.

What do you reckon about writing a few guides for the less savvy?

[ribbert]

Fuel pump failure is not a regular event. It might happen once to most of us but of course never anywhere convenient.
I used to carry a bit of hose for such an event.

Now, I have a $25 Facet 2-4psi knock off pump with the electrical connectors and plumbing changed over fitted to a mounting bracket so it is literally a 5 min job to replace requiring no more than removing the side cover. It lives in my bike bag.

On long trips or rides to remote locations, ie no mobile coverage and no passing traffic, I take a spare coil and ignition unit. These are not things that can be jerry rigged on the side of the road.

Noel

[movenon]

George,
you are a living treasure, mate.
You really are and there's a few other blokes on this site with a similar depth of technical knowledge.
It's a disappearing thing, men with real world mechanical smarts that can back it up with more than impressive qualifications and deep technical knowledge.
We've got Aircraft guys, Submarine guys, engine guys, motor guys and it's continually impressive to see you posting stuff.

What do you reckon about writing a few guides for the less savvy?

Thanks for the complement but it is shear poverty that forces me learn more. One day an old man tells his idiot son that "life will teach you boy".... Lot of truth in that statement.

I was thinking about writing a "Quick Look FJ booklet". It would have to be small enough that you could pack it with you. My thoughts here are scattered at this moment because it is just an idea rattling around in my loose head.

You would want to know some routine torques, part numbers for on the road survival (alternate fuel pumps, plugs, filters that kind of stuff. Some basic how to / save some time information (like removing the carbs the easy way), systematic trouble shooting check list for a no start condition, always a pain on the road when you are not thinking the clearest and pissed because your bike is broke, how to limp home without a fuel pump, some electrical tests, WEB address for parts (RPM and others from around the world that fit that bill), Phone numbers etc, etc etc...

The trick is to triage the information and just focus on the basic FJ survival information.

If you could cram that kind information in a small notebook that would fit in the tail section of the FJ then it might be of value to someone.

Yes the group as a whole is very talented and full of ideas, information and friendship. I like the motorcycle but I will say it is members here not the bike....

Thanks and Cheers,  George

[movenon]

Fuel pump failure is not a regular event. It might happen once to most of us but of course never anywhere convenient.
I used to carry a bit of hose for such an event.

Now, I have a $25 Facet 2-4psi knock off pump with the electrical connectors and plumbing changed over fitted to a mounting bracket so it is literally a 5 min job to replace requiring no more than removing the side cover. It lives in my bike bag.

On long trips or rides to remote locations, ie no mobile coverage and no passing traffic, I take a spare coil and ignition unit. These are not things that can be jerry rigged on the side of the road.

Noel

+ 1 
George

[FJ_Hooligan]

1/8" inlet/outlet seems rather small....? I know they are rated on flow...but still...

I wonder how much flow area there is between the needle and seat.  The seat diameter is fairly small.  I think a 1/8th inch diameter tube under a few lbs pressure would be capable of pushing quite a bit of fuel through the needle seats. And I'll bet the check valve is a positive shutoff function.  The whole thing looks cheaper than buying another Yamaha vacuum petcock. 

Hooligan

[FJscott]

George,
you are a living treasure, mate.
You really are and there's a few other blokes on this site with a similar depth of technical knowledge.
It's a disappearing thing, men with real world mechanical smarts that can back it up with more than impressive qualifications and deep technical knowledge.
We've got Aircraft guys, Submarine guys, engine guys, motor guys and it's continually impressive to see you posting stuff.

What do you reckon about writing a few guides for the less savvy?

I,m ex Submarine sailor. The Navy loves their acronyms and the first rule of troubleshooting was K.I.S.S.
Keep it simple, sailor.
Scott

Thanks for the complement but it is shear poverty that forces me learn more. One day an old man tells his idiot son that "life will teach you boy".... Lot of truth in that statement.

I was thinking about writing a "Quick Look FJ booklet". It would have to be small enough that you could pack it with you. My thoughts here are scattered at this moment because it is just an idea rattling around in my loose head.

You would want to know some routine torques, part numbers for on the road survival (alternate fuel pumps, plugs, filters that kind of stuff. Some basic how to / save some time information (like removing the carbs the easy way), systematic trouble shooting check list for a no start condition, always a pain on the road when you are not thinking the clearest and pissed because your bike is broke, how to limp home without a fuel pump, some electrical tests, WEB address for parts (RPM and others from around the world that fit that bill), Phone numbers etc, etc etc...

The trick is to triage the information and just focus on the basic FJ survival information.

If you could cram that kind information in a small notebook that would fit in the tail section of the FJ then it might be of value to someone.

Yes the group as a whole is very talented and full of ideas, information and friendship. I like the motorcycle but I will say it is members here not the bike....

Thanks and Cheers,  George

[movenon]

1/8" inlet/outlet seems rather small....? I know they are rated on flow...but still...

I wonder how much flow area there is between the needle and seat.  The seat diameter is fairly small.  I think a 1/8th inch diameter tube under a few lbs pressure would be capable of pushing quite a bit of fuel through the needle seats. And I'll bet the check valve is a positive shutoff function.  The whole thing looks cheaper than buying another Yamaha vacuum petcock. 

Hooligan

The 1/8 inch referrers to pipe thread. The drill size would be 11/32 or close to it. That would be roughly 8.7 mm ?  So the finished hole would be slightly smaller. Plenty to feed 15 gal per hour continuous.

You would have convert the needle and seats in the carbs to post 88 FJ's (fuel pump models). They are just smaller in diameter to restrict the fuel.

http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3AFloatValveP&cat=24

These are 1.5 mm in diameter.

The gravity feed check valves are 2.3 mm in diameter. That's only difference as I can tell between the 2 needles and seats. There is no added spring tension or anything like that.

That and because the fuel pump models have a fuel filter is the reason when a fuel pump model go's to a graivity feed with a bypass hose in an emergency get home situation the fuel going into the carb is a bit restricted. 2.3 vs 1.5 mm hole plus the filter if you didn't bypass it also. Which I would recommend  in an emergency.

A question that I had that Zwartie found the answer for was how fast for an extend time can we travel when our fuel pump fails and we bypass it with a hose and convert to gravity feed through those smaller 1.5mm diameter holes. Fast enough to be on a freeway and get home or to a service point.

In this bypass condition there are saftey concerns. The ONLY thing stopping the fuel flow will be your needle and seats... So you need a manual fuel shut off valve (which Zwartie did) if you leave it parked for any length of time which would be about every time you stopped for fuel or food etc..

As for the check valve design in the Facet fuel pump. I don't have a clue... I will try to contact the manufacture and ask. Not all Facet fuel pump models have the power off check valve. Or the anti sipon which we as FJ owners don't care about.

Don't mean to bore you with the small crap, just wanted to explain about the 1/8 pipe thread and the 2 different needle and seats.  
George

[FJ_Hooligan]

The 1/8 inch referrers to pipe thread. The drill size would be 11/32 or close to it. That would be roughly 8.7 mm ?  So the finished hole would be slightly smaller. Plenty to feed 15 gal per hour continuous.

11/32 = 0.34.  Isn't that the drill size for the tapped fitting?  The hose/tube ID size would be smaller.

1/8 = 0.125

The 1/8th pipe fitting appears to be more than enough to supply the fuel flow needed.  Can anyone run through 3 tanks in an hour?  I recall someone (slowoldguy?) running a set of the later model carbs on his '85 FJ and not having any problems with fuel flow.

Hooligan

[ribbert]

Further to the discussion on roadside fuel pump repairs.
I always carry these:

This will tell you if you've got power.
It will tell you how much power.
The very sharp pointy end will fit inside connectors without undoing them.
The same pointy end will penetrate insulation. Although not common, my last electrical headache was an internal break.
It will also put a very nasty hole in your finger that bleeds profusely.

I also carry one of these, a metre of wire with small alligator clips either end. Really handy.



It can be used to check earths.
It can be used to bypass powered wires to check continuity.
Can be used as emergency circuit to provide power to a dead component.
Can hot wire the bike (if you can get under the seat)

These two items will help you find pretty much 99% of electrical problems on the side of the road, or in the garage for that matter.

Noel

[movenon]

I use that same type trouble shooting test light myself quiet often for tracing down wiring problems quickly in trailers and auto's. The point is nice because you can just punch into a wire and sample it.

Now if we could reduce the size in half, put in a audible continuity checker that would be nice for a motorcycle or ATV. Any tool designers out there  .

A few years ago a friend gave me a cheap digital volt meter that was approximately  1 1/4 " X 2" long. It is real small and cheap but find it handy to pack along.

George

[movenon]

The 1/8 inch referrers to pipe thread. The drill size would be 11/32 or close to it. That would be roughly 8.7 mm ?  So the finished hole would be slightly smaller. Plenty to feed 15 gal per hour continuous.

11/32 = 0.34.  Isn't that the drill size for the tapped fitting?  The hose/tube ID size would be smaller.

1/8 = 0.125

The 1/8th pipe fitting appears to be more than enough to supply the fuel flow needed.  Can anyone run through 3 tanks in an hour?  I recall someone (slowoldguy?) running a set of the later model carbs on his '85 FJ and not having any problems with fuel flow.

Hooligan

Yes the fitting hole would be smaller. The Facet filter that they recommend to screw into the pump has a 5/16" hose input. As a note the output of the filter into the pump is smaller and the output from the pump to the carbs is the same size.

Here I have to rely on the Facet claims that the output of the 40171 pump with there filter for example is 15 gal per hour.  The same style of pump / same fittings from Facet in other pumps can deliver more than 15 gal per hour. Getting into fluid dynamics on an engineering level which is beyond me. At some point a poor guy like me has to lean on factory claims.

It will be nice to get the exact model of Posi-Flo pump that Zawarti is using. At this point all we know is that it is a 60100 series which includes 12 different pump models. Eight that have check valves. A shot in the dark it looks like the Posi-Flo 60300 would be one to look at ? It flows 20 gal per hour.

In the Facet Cube solid state model the 40171 has been used on other bikes and seems to be a proven pump. Also note the current draw is only 1.6 amps.

What would be nice is to come up with a complete conversion option for the pre 1988 models of FJ's. There are some small details that need to be worked out and I do not own a pre 88 model so it is in theory only for me.

First is dealing with the pre 88 fuel tank vacuum tap.
Disconnect the vacuum line and use it ?  Replace it with a cleaner/safer design ?

Hose size going from the fuel tap to a filter and into the pump. Use a stock Yamaha filter and feed into the pump?  Use the Facet/Purolator filter (remember it has a 5/16" fuel line input to it. I like the idea of moving the filter out to an easier location to change out.

Mounting the pump. Looks like a no brainier.. Requires a 12 volt ignition switched tap. Do the pre 88's have that unused 12 volt ignition switched plug in that area? My 1990 has one there that is unused (was anyhow, now it feeds a relay to control another device).

Feeding / routing the fuel line into the carbs. Of course it is easy, just nice to have a "standard" way to do it so if there are future problems it can be corrected.. Just like the factory. In the design looking for any abrasion or rubbing lines, heat concerns etc.

Converting the carb needle and seats. It would be easy to say just use the existing larger needle and seat diameters. But the factory went with the smaller diameter needle and seats for a good reason. Whats reason ? Beats me... BUT until I know, if it was mine I would just convert the needle and seats.

In the redesign of the fuel system it might also be nice to have an external fuel shut off valve before the filter making for easier access than doing the under tank thing.

Down side is one more thing to leak or break. Kind of a personal decision.

These are just random thoughts thrown into the "digital campfire". So please don't take it as hard facts. One of the best things about this group is being able to bounce ideas and share information. In the end we might end up with another semi standard option for the gravity feed FJ's.

George

[Pat Conlon]

Ok, here's my wish list for my '84.
To be able to replace the filter, or pump, or bypass both, without taking the tank off, just the seat and side cover.

1) Fuel petcock: No problem there, just use the oem petcock, disconnect the vacuum line, cap it off at the #1 intake, and turn the petcock lever to prime (P)
84/85's can do this, however the '86/87s can not. *I think* they would need a petcock change.
2) Shut off: Route the fuel line from the oem petcock to a fuel shut valve, access able from the top (under seat) or right side. This is needed to shut off the gas for removing/replacement of the filter or pump, or bypass.
3) Fuel line length: From the outlet side of the shutoff, have a long enough line where you can connect to the outlet side of the pump in case you need to bypass.
4) Connections: For ease of roadside service, use 'quick connect' fittings in 3 locations
    a) on the inlet side of the fuel filter
    b) on the outlet side of the filter (between the filter and pump) makes for easy filter changes.
    c) on the outlet side of the pump. (For bypass)
Install the quick connect fittings so that the fitting on the filter inlet, will mate up to the fitting on the pump outlet for quick and painless roadside pump bypass.
5) A high capacity fuel filter with the appropriate micron filtering ability. A steel case would be nice for abrasion resistance.
6) the appropriate fuel pump with internal shut off when deactivated.
7) Retain the use the oem double fuel inlets that all the gravity flow bikes use.
Change out the float needles and needle seats accordingly.

[FJ_Hooligan]

I believe Colder (company name) makes the quick connect fittings in stainless steel that have an automatic shutoff feature when they are disconnected.

[Pat Conlon]

Thanks Hooligan, that's a great tip. They have some nice connectors.
A shutoff feature is nice but not needed with the added inline shutoff valve.

My thinking was that you still needed the inline shutoff valve (accessable under the seat) if you do the bypass.

Until you get a new pump, you gotta keep all that gas in the tank.