Older versus newer street bikes

[rktmanfj]

Two words - EAR PLUGS. Unless I'm going for a 10 minute ride in town, I always ride with ear plugs. Hearing loss is a gradual process. Riding for extended periods at freeway speeds WILL result in hearing loss. I just got fitted for a custom set of ear plugs/buds that I'm going to use on the trek to Alaska. http://www.protectear.com/all-sport/ Will post my thoughts / feedback once I've gotten some miles on them.

Zwartie

+1

I have both the custom-made plugs and earbuds, though in my case it may be too little, too late.

[ribbert]

I just got fitted for a custom set of ear plugs/buds that I'm going to use on the trek to Alaska.

Zwartie

Zwartie, I have custom earplugs and love them. At the time they suggested getting different colours to make identifying L&R easy. I opted for bright orange (with a coloured wick in the R one) in case I dropped one. Well I can tell you now, a couple of years later, that had it not been for that bright colour, I would be on about my fourth set by now. You would not believe where I have managed to find them.
At $170 a pair I treat them like gold, but things happen.

Noel

[racerman_27410]

I'm a big fan of molded earplugs.... i have a very shallow ear canal which causes issues with over the counter plugs.

My audiologist said inside a person's ear is as unique to them as fingerprints.


on topic we fixed a waterpump from a FJR at a FJ rally... poor design if you ask me.... the good news is this particluar failure turned out to be field repairable (by a group of FJ owners no less) but a bad failure point to be trusting in the middle of a long trip nonetheless.

I wonder if Chris P is still running that repaired pump?

KOokaloo!

[fintip]

How efficient is Randy's oil coiler? Does stop and go traffic become a non-issue?

[baldy3853]

How efficient is Randy's oil coiler? Does stop and go traffic become a non-issue?

Certainly helps

[sean91fj]

ok thanks !  I guess i need to invest in some ear plugs asap !

I cant say that ive ever had that issue before, is it the design of the screen or that fact that the fj is so good on the freeway that you ride more of them ?

Still older bikes for me !   

[Dan Filetti]

Dunno, I wouldn't necessarily say that water cooling is a sign of modernity.

Water cooling is indeed a indicator or modernity.  Water cooling allows for the creation of higher engine temps.  Any engine builder will tell you heat is the enemy.  Too much heat will kill any motor.  Water cooling allows for higher internal temps, allowing for greater performance while still providing reliability. 

While it is (I guess) possible to get the same performance out of a air cooled motor that can be had with an otherwise similar water cooled motor, I contend doing so will result in the loss of reliability for that air cooled motor.  Frank M's Brutus (a truly amazing motor) has struggled with Carb issues, and is currently being torn down to suss out an oil leak, by way of example.

Dan   

[racerman_27410]

While it is (I guess) possible to get the same performance out of a air cooled motor that can be had with an otherwise similar water cooled motor, I contend doing so will result in the loss of reliability for that air cooled motor.  Frank M's Brutus (a truly amazing motor) has struggled with Carb issues, and is currently being torn down to suss out an oil leak, by way of example.

Dan   

I've never had carb issues with Brutus after the initial tuning phase but it is true i am still fighting a oil loss issue.... hopefully this go round with hank Scott will recitify the situation. 

I sitll dont believe my money would have been better spent on a new motorcycle.

KOokaloo!

[JPaganel]

While it is (I guess) possible to get the same performance out of a air cooled motor that can be had with an otherwise similar water cooled motor, I contend doing so will result in the loss of reliability for that air cooled motor. 

Water cooling adds radiator, hoses, water pump - multiple points of potential failure. I'd say reliability is a wash.

I don't know for sure about performance, you may be right there, although Porsche has been running air cooled for decades and there haven't been that many complaints about their performance.

The one thing water cooling has on air cooling is the ability to adapt to a wider range of ambient temperatures.

[ribbert]

Water cooling is indeed a indicator or modernity.  Water cooling allows for the creation of higher engine temps.  Any engine builder will tell you heat is the enemy.  Too much heat will kill any motor.  Water cooling allows for higher internal temps, allowing for greater performance while still providing reliability. 

While it is (I guess) possible to get the same performance out of a air cooled motor that can be had with an otherwise similar water cooled motor, I contend doing so will result in the loss of reliability for that air cooled motor.  Frank M's Brutus (a truly amazing motor) has struggled with Carb issues, and is currently being torn down to suss out an oil leak, by way of example.

Dan   

An interesting subject Dan
There have been production water cooled bikes for over 100 years, I had two in the early 70's. The most popular and reliable high mileage motor ever, the BMW boxer twin, was (until  just recently) air cooled. Piston aircraft engines are air cooled without compromising reliability, Volkswagen, Porsche.
There have been many vehicles built over the years with poorly designed cooling systems that are prone to overheating which effects reliability. Loose your coolant any one of a dozen ways and don't catch it quick enough and your reliability ends right there.
On the other hand, there are many advantages to water cooling also. Not having to expose the engine to the airflow allows for all sorts of design flexability for one.
The FJ is not a very good example of efficient air cooling, but designed right, I don't think you could suggest that air cooled motors won't go the distance or are less reliable.
The most common reason for modern bikes changing over to water cooling is emissions. This is the only reason BMW changed.

I've never had an air cooled motor dump its cooling fins on the road and seize.

You could draw up a list of pros and cons for both but I don't think there's a clear winner.

Noel

[Dan Filetti]

I've never had carb issues with Brutus after the initial tuning phase.

Forgive me Frank, I though you had to abandon the big Flat Sides because you could not make them work -no?

Dan

[Dan Filetti]

Fun.  OK, so if performance (and the related design principles of: weight and compactness/ aerodynamics) are factors, then water cooling is the way the big boys go.  F1, WSB, Nascar, Top Fuel, Prostock, the list does goes on.  When was the last time an air cooled motor finished anywhere near the top 10 in the: Daytona 500, Jarez, Isle of Man?   

Saying that "The most common reason for modern bikes changing over to water cooling is emissions." I believe, illustrated my point -correct me if you disagree please.  UN-burned hydrocarbons in one motor, versus fewer in another, indicates at least the real potential for greater performance. 

That said, if the question is: do us mere mortals need water cooling?  A case could be made that the answer is 'no', depending on what you want, expect and need from your machine. Water cooling is more expensive to make and maintain, more complex (greater entropy), and yes heavier.  Nor is it 'new', but it is what the world's motor manufactures have moved to in spades, which does represent modernity, and, unless you buy into engineered planned obsolescence, it represents the very state of reliability. 

Dan

[Dan Filetti]

I just read this:   

"The more heat generated, the more difficult it becomes to get rid of that heat. As you raise compression ratios and run the engine at higher rpm's, at some point with an air-cooled engine, you just can't make the cooling fins any larger, can't fit any more on, and you can't blow enough air over those fins to get rid of the heat faster than it is being produced. This is when the dreaded "piston seizure" usually takes place."

Thought this was as good as any point on the performance comparison point.

Dan

[ribbert]

I just read this:   

"The more heat generated, the more difficult it becomes to get rid of that heat. As you raise compression ratios and run the engine at higher rpm's, at some point with an air-cooled engine, you just can't make the cooling fins any larger, can't fit any more on, and you can't blow enough air over those fins to get rid of the heat faster than it is being produced. This is when the dreaded "piston seizure" usually takes place."

Thought this was as good as any point on the performance comparison point.

Dan

Dan, I'm not making a case for one system over the other. Merely refuting the idea that air cooled motors are less reliable.

Horses for courses, different applications suit different systems. Bringing cars into it is mostly irrelevant because their design doesn't allow for airflow. Racing engines can be tuned better when the operating temperature can be limited to a narrow range and independent of ambient temperature. Same applies to achieving emissions targets.

Racing engines of any type have entirely different goals to road bike engines and I don't think can be used in any sort of comparison. Longevity for example is not one of their targets nor is economy.

Top fuel dragsters don't use either!

It is interesting that VW's and BMW boxer engines have probably done more miles in hostile environments over the last 50 years than any other engines ever built to this day.

As far as that quote goes, all he is saying is that a cooling system needs to be matched to the engine, nothing new there. If you can't cool it with air, cool it with water. That's what the manufacturers decide when they design it.

"This is when the dreaded "piston seizure" usually takes place." This is not the sort of terminology used by someone with any sort of technical background.

Aircooled engines don't rely entirely on airflow, there is also radiated heat dissipation. There are millions of stationary motors around the word that have been chugging away for years being efficiently cooled by cooling fins with no air flow.

The call on which is best depends entirely on the end use. Neither one is universally better than the other.

Just so my position on this is clear, I repeat:

I'm not making a case for one system over the other. Merely refuting the idea that air cooled motors are less reliable.

Noel

[fintip]