Won't start (Intermittant) and I'm OUT of ideas

[Capn Ron]

Hi all...I've read every starting problem post to try and get some more ideas, but I'm stumped.

Some background:

Full ground-up rebuild of my 1992 FJ1200 ABS.  Started up just fine after the engine rebuild so I packed up the Givis and left on an 11,000 mile trip from LA.  Had a couple of passing starting issues at about the 3500 mile mark.  Had them again at 5000 miles and I'm now at 6000 miles and at a friend's house in South Carolina with tools!!  

The symptoms

When the bike starts, it's running perfect.  NO hesitation at all...heaps of smooth power...and it will idle at a rock-solid 900
RPM
At the mileage marks mentioned above, the bike just won't start...  It will crank like nobody's business, but just won't fire.  No attempt at firing/running...just cranking.

Sometimes letting it sit overnight would mean an instant startup in the morning.

Letting the bike cool off for a couple of hours wouldn't make any difference...and would occasionally backfire in attempting to start.

Then out of the blue, it will jsut fire right up.

Push starting the bike (twice) always started it right up even in the middle of the problem.

What i've done:

Fully charged the battery AND jumped it to a car battery - No difference.  Still cranks fast without firing.

Checked the voltage drop between the battery and the coils...Found it to be .8V (and more when cranking)...performed the coil relay mod (now getting 0V drop to the coils)...Still no starting.

verified fuel pump is filling carb bowls just fine and fuel is getting into the cylinders (plugs smell like gas)

Whenever I've checked for spark, I had it...

Just put a timing light on a plug wire and now it doesn't seem to be sparking at all.

What gives?  Intermittent perfect starting...then hours of no starting...then on some random attempt it'll fire right up...shut it off...fires right up again.  Turn it off...then it won't start...for many hours.

ANY thought would be appreciated...I'm on the road and would like to ride back to California...rather than fly..

Cap'n Ron

[SlowOldGuy]

If you're losing spark to all the cylinders, then it's an ignition problem (as if that's not obvious, duh).

Check wires/connectors associated with the ignition and clean every connector you can get your hands on.  Start eliminating the "safety" switches; kickstand, clutch and kill switch.  The kickstand switch can definitely cause something like this since it kills everything. 

DavidR.

[Capn Ron]

If you're losing spark to all the cylinders, then it's an ignition problem (as if that's not obvious, duh).

Check wires/connectors associated with the ignition and clean every connector you can get your hands on.  Start eliminating the "safety" switches; kickstand, clutch and kill switch.  The kickstand switch can definitely cause something like this since it kills everything. 

DavidR.

David...No trouble in stating things that may seem obvious...Sometimes we get tunnel vision when thinking about an issue...

Based on your suggestion, I'm planning on removing all the fairing bits in the morning and giving every connector and switch a going over. 

I have been ignoring the kickstand switch because the bike *is* turning over, but I'll check it anyway.  The clutch switch?  I hadn't even thought about that, but may explain why it would push start. 

What about the ignitor itself?  Would they fail intermittantly before failing completely?


Thanks!

Cap'n Ron...

[Mark Olson]

that sounds like the kill switch on the right hand side throttle.

take it apart and clean it with wd-40.

[Capn Ron]

Okay, so we're getting a little farther along...

The problem is intermittent...We took the side cover off to get at the timing puck and the pickup and put a timing light on it.

When the bike starts, the timing is dead-on.  When the bike just cranks, the timing is 180 degrees off.

What would cause the timing to shift by 180 degrees intermittently?

Still stuck in South Carolina...

Cap'n Ron

[FJ111200]

When the bike starts, the timing is dead-on.  When the bike just cranks, the timing is 180 degrees off.

What would cause the timing to shift by 180 degrees intermittently?

Just my 2 penneth worth but, is the rotor slipping every now and then due to either the bolt not fully tightened or the stud/dowel/wotsit worn on the crank?

[Capn Ron]

Just my 2 penneth worth but, is the rotor slipping every now and then due to either the bolt not fully tightened or the stud/dowel/wotsit worn on the crank?

Glad to see you're thinking in the area where we're thinking...  We pulled the cover to take a look at the rotor suspecting some issue in there...It 's rock solid and hunky-dory.  With that exposed, we thought of throwing a timing light on it and that's when we noticed the timing being off every once in a while causing the starting trouble.

We've eliminated low voltage and high voltage along with hot or cold...No correlation to any of those.  All the "wotsit" switches are performing their functions properly...kickstand, clutch, kill...

Is this a digital ignitor that can't make a timing decision properly at the moment of startup?  Again, when it starts, runs like a champ.

There is a long pier nearby that I could drive it off if it comes to that...

Cap'n Ron. . .

[fj1289]

When it gives the 180 out, try checking the spark timing for the 2/3 coil - if at the "correct" timing for the 1/4 coil.  Wracking my brain t try to figure out how the ignition would intermittantly go 180 out -- only thing I can come up with is the ignition box is on its way out.  That, or you have really great "friends" that sneak out and reverse your coil wires....

just read your last post
Are you absolutely sure your battery is in good condition - take and have it tested.  These ignitions are notorious for acting up with a bad battery - or a battery that is on it's way out - like one cell beginning to short. 
If the battery is good, an upgrade to a dyna 2000 wouldn't be a bad thing...

[racerman_27410]

check the ground wire at the coils.

[SlowOldGuy]

an upgrade to a dyna 2000 wouldn't be a bad thing...

Not necessarily.  I have a full up Dyna 2K system (ignition, coils, wires) and have been chasing a chronic loss of 2 cylinders for about a year now.  Sometimes runs all day without a problem, other times it won't make it to the corner before dropping 2 and 3.  Turn it off for a few minutes and everything comes back.

DavidR.

[Harvy]

an upgrade to a dyna 2000 wouldn't be a bad thing...

Not necessarily.  I have a full up Dyna 2K system (ignition, coils, wires) and have been chasing a chronic loss of 2 cylinders for about a year now.  Sometimes runs all day without a problem, other times it won't make it to the corner before dropping 2 and 3.  Turn it off for a few minutes and everything comes back.

DavidR.

David, I have the same setup - from interest, where did you put the D2000 brain box?

Harvy

[Signaller]

Good day,
       I'm certainly not one of the guru's here. Could there be a leak in the vacuum line to the ignitor box?


Dan

[SlowOldGuy]

Harvy,
It's on my '85 in the stock location under the left side cover attached to the battery box.

This weekend, I'm going to start swapping out parts with the other Dyna setup that I have.  I intended to install the 2nd set on my '93, but I'm starting to think twice about it.

I put the system on the '85 out of fear that the stock ignition would fail.  It's been on there about 6 years.  A few weeks after installation, it stranded me on the side of the road when a coil went bad and the whole unit shut down.  This is different, at least I can limp home on 2 cylinders.  But I can't get it to do it long enough to figure out what's causing it.

DavidR.

[Pat Conlon]

David, some of my locals were having the same issue with their Dyna 2k's.

The best they figured out was that something was going wonky with the timing plate and stray/intermittent grounding current...?

It was giving then fits. Same symptoms as yours....

They threw away their old D2000 trigger plate and converted over to the Dyna 4000 trigger assembly and their problems were solved.
http://www.dynaonline.com/skins/products/sportbikes/dyna_2000_crank_trigger/

Hope this helps... Pat

[Pat Conlon]

Here's my WAG:
Double check your engine ground wire connections (both ends)...Put your multimeter on and wiggle the connections and check the ohms.
Goofy things happen when you have a intermittent connection.... Pat