Recent Front Braking Observances

[aviationfred]

I had the opportunity to test ride a basically stock 1987 FJ1200 recently. The bike had 47,000 miles on the clock. This is my observation of the OEM front brakes.

I can not verify the brand or specific material make up of the brake pads that were installed.

Also to put things into perspective..... My 1989 FJ1200 has a 100% complete front brake system upgrade. 300MM rotors, R1 Blue Dot calipers, Braided racing dual line hoses, and a Honda RC51 master cylinder.

The 1987 FJ that I rode is in very good condition with the only flaws being a few small cracks in the plastics and a fuel gauge that has had the needle wrap around the wrong way.

I rode for about 10 miles and was absolutely amazed at the lack of front braking power. It truly felt as if there were pieces of wood installed for brake pads. I do not attribute this to anything mechanically wrong with the brakes. I attribute the lack of braking power on the 30 year old technology of, 282mm vented rotors, single pot calipers, OEM rubber brake lines and the OEM master cylinder.

There is a saying.....The best there is, is only the best that you know, applies here.  I know there are owners who are dead set at keeping their FJ1100 and first gen FJ1200's all original. This post is for those that have been on the fence about upgrading their front brakes. Replacing/upgrading any one item will result in an improvement. Doing all of the upgrades is a night and day difference. Technology has advanced greatly over 30 years. Here is my take on each component. the easiest improvements first

Brake lines.... Stainless Steel brake lines hold pressure at a better constant.
Brake Pads....EBC HH pads, Modern brake pad material is much better than what is available from the OEM pads.
Master Cylinder.... sourced from FZ1, FJR, Honda VFR or RC51 create higher pressure.
Brake rotors.... Solid slotted/drilled rotors will give an improvement.
Vmax Blue Dot adaptors. Allows the use of Blue Dot calipers while keeping the 282mm rotors and OEM anti-dive forks.

To get the real benefits of modern 21st century braking require replacing the forks at minimum with 1988 or later FJ1200 forks. This also requires the use of the 17" FJ1200 wheel

Blue/Gold/Silver Dot Calipers.... 4 pistons, with progressive braking characteristics (two different sizes of pistons) and direct bolt on to the 1988 and later FJ1200 forks.
298mm/300mm rotors.... Round or wave pattern, slotted or drilled. Larger diameter equals larger surface area.

IMO this is also a huge safety issue. At 40-50-60MPH, the panic stopping distance difference of 5 feet can have a disastrous result.

Fred

[Urban_Legend]

Great write up Fred.

I would agree 100% with upgrading all brake components. My 84 FJ1100 has had all the brake and suspension bits done, except the Blue Dots, and is a much better bike for it.
I was watching one of those car shows (like Overhaulin' and pimp my ride things) and head a good quote. "If you are going to make it go fast, you have to make it stop fast too." This holds especially true with bikes.

For anyone undecided as to whether or not do the upgrade. Spend the few hundred dollars. It comes down to how much is your life worth.

Mark

[Flynt]

"If you are going to make it go fast, you have to make it stop fast too."

ITS racer buddy said "Not enough power won't kill you, not enough brakes might...  you decide"

Kind of a Clint Eastwood version of the same wisdom...

Frank

[Flynt]

I respect the analysis Fred, but I have a different experience.  My '84 now has the AD defeated and stock brakes other than SS lines, EBC HH pads and RPM's Braking(?) rotors.  They are 1 finger strong and very nice, progressive engagement.  The '92 has blue spots and 320mm Brembo rotors (YZF750R front end) with FJR MC.  That setup is seriously powerful (kinda matches the throttle), but I don't notice a big disadvantage on the '84...

I think some component upgrades along with AD defeat* will get you a reasonable braking system on 16" wheels...  just another option.

Frank

* I know...  I advocated for AD working ok initially.  The dead zone it created in applying the brakes is what killed it for me.  The lever moves the AD piston for a bit, then engages the brakes.  This short but variable delay killed any AD value for me.

[4everFJ]

I had the original brake system on my FJ1100, but with HH sintered pads.

I then upgraded to FZR400RR 4-pot calipers, still with HH pads, braided brake lines and FZ6 brake master.

I now have a better brake feel, but I wouldn't say brake performance is like night and day. I think the biggest factor here is the brake pads and since I used similar pads on both systems, the difference isn't that big.

(and my anti-dive works fine  )

[yamaha fj rider]

Brakes are so important on a motorcycle. I want the best brakes available. Just a few feet could make the difference between, going home or to the hospital. I am planning on improving the brakes on my 2015.

The factory tires were bias. So why do we change to radial tires? Bias tires are fine 90% plus of the time. So why change? Tires have improved, so have the brakes. Would you want, a thirty year old tire design? Why do you want twenty plus year old brake design? Makes no sense to me. This is just one mans opinion.

Kurt

[FJ_Hooligan]

There is one thing to be aware of with the old 2-piston calipers.  If you only install Blue Dot calipers and keep the stock 5/8" master cylinder, you will actually LOSE brake rotor clamping power.  The 2-piston calipers have more piston surface area than the combined area of the 4-piston Blue Dots.

That means for a given line pressure, the older calipers will generate more clamping force.  I made the swap to Blue Dots, while keeping the stock master cylinder and could immediately tell the new calipers were not as good as the old ones, even with HH pads.  I had Ferodo HH pads in the old calipers and they were amazing.  I would probably have switched back but I was doing the 17 inch wheel upgrade.

The Blue Dots aren't really bad, they have good power, and I got used to them quickly.  I may eventually install the FZ1 master cylinder that I bought for it but I'm not really a big fan of really powerful (and touchy) brakes.  My FZ1 front brakes are fine and the 14mm master does give more modulation and control, but that system is not heads and shoulders above the FJ.  The brakes on my BMW will throw me over the handlebar.  But they have the safety net of incredible ABS behind them.

I have 2 points and an opinion:
1: The stock FJ braking system will work just fine with good components (pads and lines) installed.
2: If you consider upgrading brakes, do it in a logical manner.  Don't just throw parts at it.
Opinion:  If you're out there running around on 30 year old rubber brake lines, you're a fool.

[FJmonkey]

I have Blue dot slaves and original size master with HH pads for my front brakes. Before the pads bedded in to the Arashi rotors they had really good grab/feel when braking. After about 5k miles of bedding in I noticed less grab, less than stock. But in spite of the change of feel I can still get all my braking with two fingers. I personally like the harder feel at the lever. I feel like I am less likely to grab a hand full of brake during a panic stop and loose the front end. If you practice hard braking then this is not likely your best set up.

I recently changed to two clutch springs and a 14MM master. Having dealt with two springs and the stock master I can see why many like the 14MM master with the 4 pot calipers. Much easier pull at the lever to get the job done. I guess if I ever go 14MM for the front I will need to use only one finger and spend some time practicing to deal with the new lever feel...

[Pat Conlon]

Hey Hooli, when you do try the 14mm m/c on your front brakes (with the R-1 mono blocks) let us know what you find.

Personally, I don't consider them touchy. The smaller diameter 14mm piston has to travel a longer stroke to equal the line pressure of the 5/8" (16mm) piston, thus better modulation at threshold.
Yes, you can get in trouble grabbing a handful, but then again you can do the same with the stock brakes.

What I consider touchy is the oem FJ back brake. The DOT 5 fluid helps (softens) as well as the smaller diameter rotor used on my Thunder Ace rear wheel.
Even still, with all my practice, I can still modulate the front better (two fingers) than my size 12 boot on the back brake.

Practice, practice, practice....then practice some more.

[fjbiker84]

I have original road test/comparison test for the 84 FJ in digital format and researched stopping distances from a few of these.  Hear are the results:  Cycle 60-0 126.5 ft, Cycle Guide 30-0 30 ft & 60-0 121 ft, Cycle World 30-0 33 ft & 60-0 127 ft.  Those are pretty competitive numbers even against current generation bikes.  I my experience, of the modifications I've made (steel braided lines and new modern material disks/pads), the biggest improvement came after rebuilding the calipers.  So my two cents would be that the original brakes, on even the older models, are very good if in proper working order.

[FJ_Hooligan]

Hey Hooli, when you do try the 14mm m/c on your front brakes (with the R-1 mono blocks) let us know what you find.

Pat,
I have that system on my '02 FZ1.  It's nice, good power and modulation, but I wouldn't consider it night and day better than the Blue Dots and stock master on the FJ.  It's better, but I would actually prefer the old calipers and the Ferodo pads.  But I'm not going back.  It's not 1-finger braking, but I don't want that.  I would love to have the BMW brakes on the FJ, but that would have to include the ABS and that's not happening.  I had a friend ride the FJ a few months ago and he commented on how powerful the front brakes were.  I told him that they basically sucked but they were adequate but somewhat wooden feeling.  I have 3 bikes that have drastically different front brakes, but it's not that hard to adapt.

[krusty]

I upgraded my '84 with 88 or later 1200 forks mainly because the 1100 forks had too much rust, the anti-dive needed overhauling and needed caliper pistons which were expensive when you need 4 of them. The 1200 forks cost me $70, the 4 pot calipers were given to me. The only non stock item I needed to complete the picture was a pair of early Vmax discs to fit the 16" wheel as they had the extra diameter needed for the fork/caliper set up. Added braided lines and kept stock MC. Braking is excellent.

BTW, as a side note, its ok to make comparisons using 1 finger/2 finger expressions but in real life emergency braking one should be using all fingers progessively. There's no point braking with, say, 2 fingers then finding you need even more pressure only to have a couple of spare fingers jammed between the lever and the grip.

[ribbert]

BTW, as a side note, its ok to make comparisons using 1 finger/2 finger expressions but in real life emergency braking one should be using all fingers progessively. There's no point braking with, say, 2 fingers then finding you need even more pressure only to have a couple of spare fingers jammed between the lever and the grip.

Krusty, I don't know how far you go back but what you describe takes me back 45 years to cable operated drum brakes, I can remember doing just that. Hydraulic disc brakes don't behave like that.

Noel

[giantkiller]

My brakes work great   

[Country Joe]

  I have no doubt about that!!