Recent Front Braking Observances

[krusty]

BTW, as a side note, its ok to make comparisons using 1 finger/2 finger expressions but in real life emergency braking one should be using all fingers progessively. There's no point braking with, say, 2 fingers then finding you need even more pressure only to have a couple of spare fingers jammed between the lever and the grip.

Krusty, I don't know how far you go back but what you describe takes me back 45 years to cable operated drum brakes, I can remember doing just that. Hydraulic disc brakes don't behave like that.

Noel

Yes I go way back but this was something I learned more recently as a riding instructor and still applies today. 

[PaulG]

Yes I go way back but this was something I learned more recently as a riding instructor and still applies today. 

Interesting to know that they still teach that in rider training programs today.  When I first got my license in '85 they were adamant in teaching us to use all four fingers - all the time.  Most stock street bikes were still single pots back then, so I can understand why coupled with the tire technology of that era.

Now even the most basic of bikes has braking technology far superior to back then, with much grippier tires.  So other than being good practice, is that something they still stress everywhere?   

[krusty]

Yes I go way back but this was something I learned more recently as a riding instructor and still applies today. 

Interesting to know that they still teach that in rider training programs today.  When I first got my license in '85 they were adamant in teaching us to use all four fingers - all the time.  Most stock street bikes were still single pots back then, so I can understand why coupled with the tire technology of that era.

Now even the most basic of bikes has braking technology far superior to back then, with much grippier tires.  So other than being good practice, is that something they still stress everywhere?   

The technique was not to use all four fingers at once but to progessively apply pressure starting with the tip of the index finger then progressively bring the others into play around the lever as more pressure is required. We taught it this way so that novices would not be grabbing a handful of brake when only slight pressure is required. In this respect, yes braking may only require a couple of fingers but the others are there if needed.

[Zwartie]

In the Canada Safety Council (CSC) Gearing Up program we teach 4-fingers for the application of the clutch and front brake. When the levers are not being applied the hands are to be on the grips, not hovering the levers. Keep in mind that the course is designed for new riders. In the Slow Speed Maneuvers lesson the students are taught to "ride the clutch" while revving the engine above idle and applying a bit of rear brake. This makes for nice smooth control of the motorcycle at slow speeds. If they were to hover the front brake lever during a slow speed turn and accidentally apply the front brake the bike will go down in a hurry. In the Emergency Swerving lesson the students are taught to use push-steering to steer the motorcycle around an obstacle in an emergency situation. If they are in the habit of hovering the front brake and a real emergency (in the real world) happens they will more than likely inadvertently apply the front brake while trying to swerve around the obstacle. It may not be the best combination. Again, this is for new riders. Experienced riders may decide that they have the best reaction time by hovering their fingers over the levers but we teach what we consider to be best practices for new riders. We still teach using all four fingers to apply the front brake and the brakes must be applied smoothly and progressively with maximum squeeze on the front brake just before coming to a complete stop. I'm sure that there are plenty of experienced riders who use various methods for braking - 1 or 2 fingers, trail braking in curves, etc. but for the purpose of our course we need to keep it simple and as fail-safe as possible.

Zwartie

Yes I go way back but this was something I learned more recently as a riding instructor and still applies today. 

Interesting to know that they still teach that in rider training programs today.  When I first got my license in '85 they were adamant in teaching us to use all four fingers - all the time.  Most stock street bikes were still single pots back then, so I can understand why coupled with the tire technology of that era.

Now even the most basic of bikes has braking technology far superior to back then, with much grippier tires.  So other than being good practice, is that something they still stress everywhere?   

The technique was not to use all four fingers at once but to progessively apply pressure starting with the tip of the index finger then progressively bring the others into play around the lever as more pressure is required. We taught it this way so that novices would not be grabbing a handful of brake when only slight pressure is required. In this respect, yes braking may only require a couple of fingers but the others are there if needed.

[PaulG]

That was a good refresher course.  And I got it for free!     It's just as I would have remembered it ...

[ribbert]

My brakes have only ever started me twice, the day I installed EBC HH pads and got a lot more brake than I was expecting and the day I installed the blue dots and got a lot less brake than I was expecting.
I had to wait a week for HH pads for the blue dots and and was running standard Toyo pads in them, they were as Fred described, wooden blocks. I got quite a shock because I discovered this when I actually needed them.

Lots of good opinions and experience of brake upgrades from everyone and good to see a softening of the widely held view that the blue dot calipers alone are the silver bullet for brake improvement.

I fitted my upgraded components (m/c, lines, pads and calipers) one at a time and it was interesting to note the impact each had on brake performance and feel.

I have ridden a number of modern bikes recently and as Hooli and Frank noted, the brakes are better but not in another league. The FJ's stablemate is a BMW with current generation brakes, they're better and the harder you use them the more noticeable the difference, but swapping from one to the other I'm not consciously aware of the difference.

I rode this from Harrietville to the summit of Mt Hotham and back recently. Now, these are brakes! but once again not night and day difference from the FJ. (BTW, having had my fun, I was happy to hand it back, unlike the RT)



I (IMO) think many riders have no idea just how quickly their bike is capable of stopping. I have seen riders scared of their front brakes even with ABS, reluctant to grab a handful even when it's needed.

The Govt's accident investigation unit here say that in all motorbike accidents where the bike has hit an object (car, tree, pole, curb etc) 80% of them had the braking capacity to stop short of impact, some by huge margins. They also noted that many ABS equipped bikes were not braking heavily either.

As Monkey said, practice, practice, practice, it could save your life one day.

Just out of interest today I tried the four fingers on the levers to see if I could manage throttle blips (which I could). The thing that struck me immediately though was how uneasy I felt not having a grip on the bars.

My son, who has never ridden a bike in his life, recently did his 2 day licence course. Listening to him explain it I

Noel

[mr blackstock]

G'day,
I am running a 85' 1100 with stock wheels and braided lines.  I can remember riding bikes with drum brakes, and the early years with disc brakes, up to the more modern brake systems.  Initially I never intended on upgrading the FJ's brake lines as I preferred the feel of rubber hose with disc brakes.  Now before everyone starts throwing emoticons... here me out.

I used to ride an XJ650 RJ sports model, well the rubber lines were flexing too much so I replaced them with new rubber.  They were greatly improved and had great feel.  Other bikes I rode at the time appeared to me to have "too hard" brakes, they were multi pots with braided lines, and i swear the damn things locked up at any oppurtunity if I grabbed too much brakes.  You see riding the older bikes I was used to grabbing a big handful of front brake, or stomping the rear brake, and I still found that they were not locked up, enabling me to feel more in control.  Compared to modern brakes, where even a gentle touch will lock up the rear, I almost preferred the older rubber lines.

When I ride with other guys, I notice they never apply brakes during cornering, even at quite gentle angles when it used to be o.k to grab some brake, these days I wonder if the damn things are so touchy that it makes guys nervous of lock up's?

Concerning my own FJ, well I did buy some second hand braided lines awhile ago and installed them, the price was really good and I thought "better stay modern", well I found that the brakes were greatly improved in regards touchiness, but now my rear locks up pretty easily.. I will just have to adjust to it.  I do not think I will modify the forks to get the "blue dots", as I am pretty satisfied with how quickly the bike stops, and as an aside,

in how many instances of bikes stopping in a hurry has "instant stopping" played an important feature?  In other words, how many bike accidents have been worse due to poor brake design or old brake?  Most accidents I have known details about could not have had an altered outcome if the rider had been able to stop quicker, ie: coming off on corners, being bumped from behind, being T boned without warning or general poor handling accidents.

I reckon the few instances where full lock up braking would save your skin, would be stopping in a straight line either coming up to stopped traffic or someone pulling in front of you, or avoiding livestock, and are these types of accidents more common that coming off in corners?

Just some thoughts...

cheers, Gareth

[FJmonkey]

Gareth, I had a tiny air bubble in my rear brake line after switching over to a braided line. I liked the softer feel on the rear as well. Not braking in the corners for me is my goal. Pick an entry speed, follow my line, power out and judge the next corner. I am not racing, no need to pass if the rider in front has a good pace and clean lines. 

[mr blackstock]

G'day,
I hear what you are saying about braking while cornering.  While hard braking, either front or rear is best avoided mid corner, I have been finding that when I apply the rear gently throughout the early part of the corner, the bike feels "keener" through the corner.  Not sure how to describe it. 

I always followed the concept of doing all your braking prior to leaning into the corner, then rolling through before powering out, etc.  worked great for me.  A fellow rider suggested one day applying the rear gently throughout the corner, and I found the cornering was actually better.

While riding straight and around the "burbs", I usually always use the front brake more.  I read on a google search that one rider under adjusts his rear pedal so that it requires a great amount of force to lock up the rear.  I guess that was his method of managing his reflex to lock up when startled.

Each to their own I guess...

[yamaha fj rider]

The point of this thread was how much better the brakes could be made on a stock FJ. Better pads and braided lines will help any bike seems to be the consensus. Your master cylinder and calipers need to be matched. Using blue dot calipers with the stock master cylinder, may reduce braking force. Change both or keep them stock. Installing a master cylinder that was designed to be used with the blue dot calipers will make a noticeable improvement. Hope this helps someone.

Kurt

[mr blackstock]

Kurt,
I think the "point" of the thread was offering an observation in the difference in braking power between a modern and original system, and some handy tips on modernising your brakes if one chose to do so.  I don't think anyone is suggesting that improving your braking system will not have a positive effect such as increased braking power, however, I think there were opinions also offered regarding methodology of braking, and in many cases, the method used to brake can have an equal if not greater influence on the outcome of an accident as top notch brakes. 

If avoiding an accident was as simple as grabbing a handful of modern brakes, then I will commence the upgrade tomorrow.  Braking methods on a motorcycle are entirely different to those needed to stop a car.  Car drivers can securely stomp their brakes and come to a stop, whereas a rider has to chose when and where to apply the brakes, and how hard to apply them.  Poor riding skills often lead to accidents, grabbing brakes, even brilliant brakes, will not change the outcome of some situations. 

I have ridden my FJ on gravel/dirt roads at speeds up 50mph, and gone around corners, at lesser speeds of course, and I did not use my brakes with anywhere near the amount of frequency or force that I would use for asphalt riding.  Of course if an object jumps in front of me, I know I have no stopping power, and thats when I drop the bike, slide and hope for a merciful stop.  I know I could have driven that road with my car that day, and been safer, and possibly stopped in time and made it to work no worries.  But thats not the point, and it's not the reason we continue to ride bikes.

Gareth

[yambutt]

I have blue dots, braided brake lines and original master cylinder on my 92 and for me its a big difference, way more stopping power than stock

[fj johnnie]

 YZF 600 front end with stock rotors, blue dots, braided lines and an FZ1 master. Testing my braking ability the other day I managed to do hoppies. With an FJ. I also managed to lock up the front end. 4 foot skid mark from a lock up on the front. It is about knowing what they are capable of. Knowing what kind of stopping power whatever system you have has. Practice.
I spent a day with my son teaching him the coefficient of friction difference between asphalt, gravel, dirt and grass, by measuring stopping distances. Front brake only, back brake only and both. ( ATV , much safer ). It was a school project. The teacher had no idea the front brake was the one that did most of the braking. Many of the things most of us know escape millions.

[Pat Conlon]

Good for you Johnnie! What a great way to learn (and teach)
Your son is lucky to have a dad like you

[vengi]

My brakes work great   

Hali !

good image, good engine....

I'm interested in the whole entire process of conversion.

Front - rear.
What engine?
What year ?

.... in detail.....

gyorifelo@gmail. com