Earth........a giant space ship racing arond the sun at light speed

[CanDman]

 Sounds like a must read on my way over there...........I am a Creationist....wasn't always...but I have become one over the course of my life. The debate between the 2 schools has been going on for hundreds of years. I guess ones belief is really one made by choice....we humans believe what we want to believe......with or without all the facts. We drive our cars, board our planes and get on the elevators not really knowing if they're safe or not (we believe its safe because someone told us it was safe). I tossed away the notion of a Big Bang Theory a long time ago after reading the 2nd law of Thermal Dynamics

*    The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems spontaneously evolve toward thermodynamic equilibrium—the state of maximum entropy. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the second kind are impossible.

The second law is an empirically validated postulate of thermodynamics, but it can be understood and explained using the underlying quantum statistical mechanics. In the language of statistical mechanics, entropy is a measure of the number of microscopic configurations corresponding to a macroscopic state. Because thermodynamic equilibrium corresponds to a vastly greater number of microscopic configurations than any non-equilibrium state, it has the maximum entropy, and the second law follows because random chance alone practically guarantees that the system will evolve towards such thermodynamic equilibrium.

It is an expression of the fact that over time, differences in temperature, pressure, and chemical potential decrease in an isolated non-gravitational physical system, leading eventually to a state of thermodynamic equilibrium.  

.........someone described it to me like this one time.......If I was to take a Hydrogen Bomb and detonate it in the middle of the dessert what do you suppose you would find? Well......a lot of burnt sand I said.... then he asked me.....any chance of returning and finding Las Vegas?   .......not based on what I know about explosions !!!

Of all the movies I have ever watched, I never knew the story until the movie was over....... the interesting thing, is that everyone who will have watched that same movie will all have a different perspective of what they saw and understood based on their own lives and personal experiences...... . Someone may lean over and ask what you think.....they may or may not agree....

[CanDman]

....I use the reference of 10,000 years because it is the only point of which creationists and evolutionists agree upon when dating modern man...."

Ah yes, the classic Old Earth vs Young Earth argument...... Kev, you missed the point.

Don't get tunnel vision on the minutia....mankind's 15 minutes of fame....or was it 45 minutes?

Step back, try to get a feeling of the big picture and blink your eyes...

It's 65* clear and sunny!  I'll think I'll go for a ride and watch the sunset over the desert. Life is good.

Sounds perfect !!!! wish I could join ya....

[Klavdy]

Thermal Dynamics?

Lets take it that you've made a typo and not just dribbling out some more alcohol fuelled pseudo intellectual bullshit.

Or lets not.

Kevin, if you're going to spout quotes from Wikipedia at least acknowledge them as such and their source,not try to pass them off as your own knowledge.
Being so disingenuous is intellectually dishonest and wouldn't you agree that it is not a very Christian thing to do?

[CanDman]

Thermal Dynamics?

Lets take it that you've made a typo and not just dribbling out some more alcohol fuelled pseudo intellectual bullshit.

Or lets not.

Kevin, if you're going to spout quotes from Wikipedia at least acknowledge them as such and their source,not try to pass them off as your own knowledge.
Being so disingenuous is intellectually dishonest and wouldn't you agree that it is not a very Christian thing to do?

I did make the notation (*) prior to the quote...I didn't realize I needed to name the source........here is a better explanation of I was trying to say...and I have left the source for your reference...


The First Law of Thermodynamics:Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.


The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy.

Click here for another page (developed by Dr. John Pratte, Clayton State Univ., GA) covering thermodynamics.


 I hope this explains it better......  

[Flynt]

I hope this explains it better......  

The explanation that entropy proves there is a God goes something like "we're a very complex species in a very organized world with too many grand things that could't have developed on their own".  The big error in that thinking is that the least entropy in the universe was just after the big bang and inflation dispersed all matter/energy uniformly (almost) throughout the cosmos.  Since that moment the universe has been taking every path toward higher entropy that is available, including clumping the near perfect dispersion into chunks...  all the while reducing the potential of that uniformly distributed matter/energy to do any useful work.  Life itself is the winding down of the potential to convert the initial matter/energy into work.

I'll never argue that there isn't a higher being or grand purpose or ??, even though I have the science background to understand there does't need to be one as far as we can tell.  I have a fundamental faith that we're not just here killing time (whatever time is...), but really don't understand when someone tries to convince me or anyone else that they understand this whole reality better than I do.  You can have your opinion, but it is in effect the same as your asshole and I've got one too.  Let's just keep them to ourselves where religion is concerned (and maybe politics).

Besides if you really want to question the nature of what we are all experiencing, read up on the Quantum Multiverse (current leading theory of everything - ref: Brian Greene) and then tell me how God fits in...

Frank

[CanDman]

....you know......I have said some things on this forum that I have regretted...... and I have apologized for some things I have written......but this post is not one of them! I will not  be made to feel ashamed or embarrassed for what I believe......This site is still under the freedom of speech is it not ?...isn't there some mention of God in the Declaration of Independence ?  

*..........in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.



...... maybe the men who wrote this were living in the Dark ages and didn't know any better.....

......I have not promoted Christ.....or religion.... or meditation...or any sort of institution of any kind. This thread was about this planet and the beauty and the wonder within it. I am not telling anyone how to live or what to believe.......I am merely expressing my awe and wonder at what I believe to be the beauty of Creation. I have not slandered anyone...or mocked anyone....or ridiculed anyone...or called anyone a blind fool.....nor have I been verbally abusive ......I started a simple thread about something I truly appreciate and believe in. I am only sorry that this thread has turned ugly....... .....it was not my intention at all !!!!  
   

....hmmmm and I was going to start another thread about the End of the World.......but forget it now.........too many angry people with their fingers on the trigger as it is.......

[Flynt]

...it was not my intention at all !!!!  

cool then... I was reading your story differently and mostly wanted to dust off my thermo.   

Frank

[Klavdy]

O.K, you quote Wikipedia as gospel, and don't have any issue with it's veracity.
Hmmm.
Best you don't look at Wikipedia any more, it says the earth is some 4.5 billion years old and that sort of cognitive dissonance will surely make your head explode

Might be beneficial to read up on radioactive decay ,"Half life" and radiometric dating methods though.
I'm sure there's a nuclear scientist or two on the forum that can steer you to an easily understood primer on the subjects.



"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
     ...Stephen F Roberts

[Capn Ron]

....you know......I have said some things on this forum that I have regretted...... and I have apologized for some things I have written......but this post is not one of them! I will not  be made to feel ashamed or embarrassed for what I believe......This site is still under the freedom of speech is it not ?...

Kev...I mostly, (but not always) agree with you on what you say, but as some great person once said, "I will defend to the death your right to say it..."  I, personally like that you will often just "put it all out there"...  In doing so, I get the impression that you're a good egg...a genuine person...and a hellava good roofer!  

Science...or Christianity...or Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Hinduism...or Judaism...or a person's belief in Allah, Poseidon, Apu, Supay, Athena,  Nanshe (goddess of social justice, prophecy, fertility and fishing...I particularly like this one!!), the great spaghetti monster or one of a thousand other gods are not in opposition to one another.  They are all an individual's way of explaining the phenomena we observe in the world.  It's what gets us through our day...It's what makes us personally feel comfotable with uncomfortable subjects like death...or the meaning of life...or what/who else is out there...or why lightening happens.

I'm an Athiest...or what we often joke of as a "worm-foodist"...An existentialist in the Nietzsche sense...I simply exist.  Any meaning of my life or purpose of my being here, I must generate on my own.  I have the power within me to be a good person...to be kind to others...to help out those in need the best way I can and to resist evil whenever it presents itself.  This is a good fit for me...just as Christianity is a good fit for you...or Buddhism is a good fit for my sister...Or Hinduism is a good fit for my friend Saeed.  No one should be made to feel ashamed or embarrased for what they believe.  If it gets you through your day...just as being an Athiest gets me through mine...and the end result is that we're all good humans...then what's to debate?

Cap'n Ron. . .

[Capn Ron]

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
     ...Stephen F Roberts

Klav,

A most excellent quote and I may use that sometime in the future!  I've always liked this one:

"Religion is sort of like a lift in your shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don't ask me to wear your shoes."  -George Carlin quoting an unnamed source-

Cap'n Ron. . .

[andyoutandabout]

Couldn't resist a weigh-in on this one.
For all my students out there....take it away Bill:

Bill Nye: Creationism Is Not Appropriate For Children

Andy

[CanDman]

quote author=Capn Ron link=topic=10959.msg107537#msg107537 date=1391593556]

....you know......I have said some things on this forum that I have regretted...... and I have apologized for some things I have written......but this post is not one of them! I will not  be made to feel ashamed or embarrassed for what I believe......This site is still under the freedom of speech is it not ?...

Kev...I mostly, (but not always) agree with you on what you say, but as some great person once said, "I will defend to the death your right to say it..."  I, personally like that you will often just "put it all out there"...  In doing so, I get the impression that you're a good egg...a genuine person...and a hellava good roofer!  

[/quote]


....hellava good Framer (not roofer... ) !!!    Thanks Ron.....I appreciate the kind words.....I have also respected your adventurous nature......to me it is the mark of a hungry soul....I also believe that you are a good man... and I hope to have the pleasure of your company one day....We can hit the high seas one day and at night....have a few pops and watch Moby Dick (1956 with Gregory Peck) and discuss the hidden and deeper meaning of the Story...... .........lol . I like the fact that you respect an individuals prerogative to believe what he choses.


  I know that some individuals can't help but criticize others... they don't have (what you call) lifts in life....... so they have to put others down in order to elevate themselves. It's a very real guise to help mask a deep sense of inadequacy. A real sad and lonely prison !!!!!   I truly feel sorry for those people.....no joy...no love....no class.....nothing but contempt and criticism  for anything and everyone who disagrees with them ...... and they spend all their energy searching for one target after another hoping find portals to spew their malice and disdain for life...for people and ultimately...themselves !!!   ......... They are loud and vile on the internet....but get them in a group with real people and become invisible..like a ghost.........I call these people cowards !!!! ....just way too afraid to be real....
 
CanDman.......

PS.......I won't expect any apology's from   Klavdy......I realize he has an image to keep.......      
       

[CanDman]

Couldn't resist a weigh-in on this one.
For all my students out there....take it away Bill:

Bill Nye: Creationism Is Not Appropriate For Children

Andy

A bit audacious to tell hard working Parents not to teach their children what they believe.......I seem to remember a movement in the 2nd world war called Hitlerjugend or Hitler youth....they and their parents were forced to help try and eradicate everyone who opposed them !!!
That's what I love about the scientific community...... don't seem to pay much attention to History ...... .....and I suppose that's what happens when you are too busy trying to prove

     A THEORY !!!!!!!

[Country Joe]

Couldn't resist a weigh-in on this one.
For all my students out there....take it away Bill:

Bill Nye: Creationism Is Not Appropriate For Children

Andy

I can't resist a weigh-in on Bill Nye's little video. That has got to be the dumbest set of statements that I have seen linked together in a very long time. For him to say that there is no possibility of us continuing to innovate or discover new advances in the sciences if creationism is allowed to exist is stupidity of the highest order. Bill has no specific examples that he pointed  to, just general statements intended to paint creationists as a hinderance or even a threat to this country.  Does he think that there are no doctors, engineers or scientists that believe the Biblical view of creation? Do you think Bill Nye has  ever heard of Sir Francis Bacon, Nicholas Copernicus, Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, or Michael Faraday, just to name a few? Does he think that creationism just showed up on the scene in the last few decades and now all of a sudden scientific progress is threatened with extinction?
I personally know a retired engineer who worked for the Army Corp of Engineers, he was involved with the design and construction of several Corp of  Engineers dams around the United States during the 1960s through the 1980s. This man has an intellect and education that  is equalled by very few people that  I  have ever met. He has accomplishments behind him that will live far beyond his mortal existance. Yet he believes every word of the Old and New Testament and has been studying and teaching the Bible for over 50 years. His studies have given him a wonder and an awe of the universe that is remarkable. It has not made him uninformed or dull, but truly one of the most genuinely interesting and humble men that I have ever known. And I can assure anyone that has even the least little bit of an open mind, if they dared to give him a fair hearing,they would find his explanations of how the  evidences we can observe in geology and astronomy fit the Biblical model remarkably well.
I know I have not likely changed a single mind on this board, that I fully know well. It is not a matter of the mind, but rather a matter of the heart and will. If one wishes to live in rebellion against God, we will attempt to find a way to explain him away.

[Zwartie]

What a great topic. It must be the extra cold winter that's making everyone just a little nutty. Soon spring will come and we'll turn our focus back to what matters – motorcycling!
In the meantime, I may as well add my 2 cents. I've gone through a bit of a personal "journey" over the past 12 years and I'll spare you the details but it started with me being (or claiming to be) a Christian and now as more of an agnostic at best.
Religion vs. Science: Where the Christian Conservatives are suspicious of the scientific community, I find myself more suspicious of the Christian Conservatives these days. I was raised in a conservative Christian family and do appreciate the values that I've been taught. That being said, I just watched that Bill Nye clip and I think he's spot on. I think that at the root of it, science and religion are really trying to answer the same fundamental question – why are we here? At one time I nicely compartmentalized the two where I figured science asked the question of how and religion the question of why. But that was just my way of dealing with the differences in the two. I also used to think of religion (not spirituality, for that is something else) as having an element of humility whereas science carried a certain arrogance with it. Now I see it as being completely the opposite. Think of it this way – Science looks at the world, universe or whatever by taking in information, analyzing it and coming up with a theory on how something works and then testing against that theory. It is always a theory and always based on what we know at the time. Even the super-smart physicists like Stephen Hawking will say "this is what we believe to be true because it hasn't been disproven...yet". They never claim it to be absolute truth. When new information is presented that disproves a particular theory, then a new theory must be made. So Science does not claim to be right, it just says it hasn't been proven wrong yet. Religion on the other hand, and I am speaking of most organized religion looks at it the other way: "this is what we believe because this is what was written x-thousand years ago and what our fathers and their fathers before them told us so therefore it is right". When new information is provided that is contrary to a religion's belief system the first response is immediate resistance. You don't agree? Check the history books. Some may think that the simple line "...for the Bible tells me so" is a beautiful thing; especially when sung or recited by children but "for the Bible (or Koran, or whatever religious book) tells me so" may also be one of the most dangerous things anyone can say. I don't claim to be a scholar in religious studies (my sister is a pastor and has her M.Div.), but what some of the most prominent scholars tend to agree on these days is that the four Gospels of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were not written by eyewitnesses at all, the earliest one was written some 70 years after Christ. Then you add the error in translations over the years, the politics involved in deciding which books were in and which books were out of the Bible and it's really hard to take it as "gospel". Funny how a word that means "good news" has somehow morphed to be understood by many as "absolute truth". Read up on the book of Revelation for instance and you'll find that for many years it was considered to be heresy by the Church. It was written during the time when Nero was emperor and again is thought by many scholars to have been more of a commentary of the known world at that time and the readers of the day understood what it meant. Talk about something taken out of context.
At the end of the day I find it really hard to believe (because it makes no sense to me) that an Almighty being would create a world, universe or whatever and that from the moment we take our first breath we are doomed to eternal damnation unless we believe that someone was nailed to a cross 2,000 years ago – and of course the earth being 4,000 years old at that time. Again, all the current evidence points to a universe that is something like 14.7 billion years old and that humankind has been on this planet much, much longer than what we may interpret from Genesis.
Again, this is just what I believe and just at this time in my life. If I am presented with new information then I will have to consider it and adjust my beliefs accordingly. Does that make me "weak" because I don't have the unwavering "faith of our fathers"? I certainly hope not.