Just the other day, I noticed that one of my favorite vendors had an outstanding price on flip-front helmets (in this case HJC CL-Max), but nagging safety concerns kept me from ordering.
Then, over the weekend, a good friend of mine was seriously injured while wearing one (a Fulmer model).
Details of the accident vary, but no one disputes that the 18 year old female failed to yield right-of-way, and pulled out in front of him. He t-boned her car, and flew some 150 feet, landing on the pavement. He was wearing a Teknic jacket, which did it's job well. I doubt if he was wearing any lower body armor, and his left leg is broken in three places (two pins). He also got a dislocated finger.
What really concerns me is the head injuries... broken jaw and orbit. It appears that the entire front of the helmet came off upon impact with the car,leaving him partially unprotected for the subsequent impact with the pavement. It also appears that his facial injuries occurred upon initial impact with the car. While it no doubt saved his life, I have to wonder if a conventional full face helmet would have performed better.
Randy T
Indy
What type of construction does the Fulmar flip helmet have? The HJC Symax has a metal reinforcement across the chinbar front of the helmet and twin metal latches. I'd be surprised if that was less sturdy than a fibreglass or thermoplastic chinbar, but ???? pretty hard to determine. You'd also have to wonder how much of the force of the impact was absorbed by ripping the front off the helmet. Better idea - watch out for 18 yr old felmales - they are rarely paying attention to where they're going.
Sorry to hear that your friend is paying for her stupidity.
Cheers,
Arnie
Been thinking about a new flip-face helmet myself. My old Arai is getting some years on it.
Go on advrider and search on flip helmets. It seems not uncommon that the jaw-piece rips off upon face plant. Seen some bad looking pictures of those helmets fubared with the jaw/flip part broken and it's always at the hinge. Not sure if it's particular brand(s) or is it just the hinge design.
Don't think I've ever seen a full face break like that, have you?
Flip up helmets are convenient, but I would never trust one.
It seems all too common that they come apart in a crash. Don't know if I've ever seen any full face helmets come apart like that in a crash. I would guess the amount of force needed to to that would be quite a lot.
I broke the chinbar on an older ARAI several years ago. I have also broken, and witnessed others breaking the chinbars on offroad helmets.
IMO I consider most of my safety equipment to be disposable. It hits the ground hard once and its over. I find it very doubtful that the energy it takes to break the chinbar off of a flip front helmet would be fully disipated by a standard full faced helmet, much less that floppy hinge we call a spine.
With any safety equipment you are forced to make compromises for comfort or convenience, Otherwise we would all be riding in full leather and steel plate. Personally I will take my chances with nicely perfed leather or textile and a comfortable, well ventilated helmet. A flip front offers quite a bit more protection than a skull cap or bandana.....
so, randy, you're really trying to f*ck with me now, aren't you? or have you taken on a second job at newenough.com? i bought my flip-up from them, and since have seen on their site a conventional full-face helmet at a super discounted price that i really like the colors. but i keep saying "i have a perfectly good, new helmet in my garage". grrr...
( :
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 03, 2009, 06:38:53 PM
so, randy, you're really trying to f*ck with me now, aren't you? or have you taken on a second job at newenough.com? i bought my flip-up from them, and since have seen on their site a conventional full-face helmet at a super discounted price that i really like the colors. but i keep saying "i have a perfectly good, new helmet in my garage". grrr...
( :
Well, if I'd known that you'd actually followed through and bought one, I definitely would have fcuked with you... :rofl2:
I was watching the HJCs at NE for a while, and was about to pull the trigger one of the CL-15s then they went and put the CL-Max on closeout, too... and I have ordered neither, duh.
I didn't think they had any of them in plain white, though. :blum2:
Maybe they'll even discount more if we buy two CL-15s :nea: They're pretty darned cheap as it is...
Randy T
Indy
PS: Rick's jaw is wired shut now. The orbital fracture they are leaving as is for now, as it is providing a natural relief for the swelling from his concussion. Ended up being two fractures to the femur, and one each, tib/fib.
randy,
i got the cl-max at N/E. i had it at the spring rally, didn't you notice? oh, wait, you probably had trouble seeing it thru the dust i was leaving you behind in. at. to. ( :
after wearing the modulars for many years i finally got paranoid and went back to full face helmets. Figured i had rolled the dice enough times.
i have had several flip fronts and the only one that i couldnt get to open (by twisting the helmet in my hands) was the schuberth.... damn shame its the most uncomfortable hemet i have ever put on my head.
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 03, 2009, 08:25:27 PM
randy,
i got the cl-max at N/E. i had it at the spring rally, didn't you notice? oh, wait, you probably had trouble seeing it thru the dust i was leaving you behind in. at. to. ( :
Had we been in the same riding group even once this year, I have no doubt that you would have... but then, I never claimed to be fast. :bye:
Randy T
Indy
Quote from: racerman_27410 on August 03, 2009, 09:01:44 PM
after wearing the modulars for many years i finally got paranoid and went back to full face helmets. Figured i had rolled the dice enough times.
i have had several flip fronts and the only one that i couldnt get to open (by twisting the helmet in my hands) was the schuberth.... damn shame its the most uncomfortable hemet i have ever put on my head.
Hey the shuberth is one featured in the pictures with the chin bar broke all to shit in the aforementioned advrider thread.
I'd still consider a flip for the convenience if I could find one that fit well. The only thing I can say about my next helmet is no more Arai til they fix the piece of crap "super adsis" visor system.
Simple way to view things....
Do racers use flipfront hats?
Quote from: andyb on August 04, 2009, 09:56:27 AM
Simple way to view things....
Do racers use flipfront hats?
And they ride with full race leathers.
I would not wear my 'stich on a race track, nor would I wear my Nolan flip up helmet. But I think both are good choices for street riding.
hah, you know i'm just joshing you, we've been in the same riding group for years it seems. i think you're a really good rider, despite having so much more extra weight.
<ducks>
( :
Quote from: rktmanfj on August 03, 2009, 09:06:57 PM
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 03, 2009, 08:25:27 PM
randy,
i got the cl-max at N/E. i had it at the spring rally, didn't you notice? oh, wait, you probably had trouble seeing it thru the dust i was leaving you behind in. at. to. ( :
Had we been in the same riding group even once this year, I have no doubt that you would have... but then, I never claimed to be fast. :bye:
Randy T
Indy
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 04, 2009, 08:15:34 PM
hah, you know i'm just joshing you, we've been in the same riding group for years it seems. i think you're a really good rider, despite having so much more extra weight.
<ducks>
( :
Quote from: rktmanfj on August 03, 2009, 09:06:57 PM
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 03, 2009, 08:25:27 PM
randy,
i got the cl-max at N/E. i had it at the spring rally, didn't you notice? oh, wait, you probably had trouble seeing it thru the dust i was leaving you behind in. at. to. ( :
Had we been in the same riding group even once this year, I have no doubt that you would have... but then, I never claimed to be fast. :bye:
Randy T
Indy
Can you tell my internet has been down for a week?
Damned top posters, anyway... :unknown:
Randy T
Indy
i never know where to put my reply when i'm quoting someone.
Quote from: rktmanfj on August 11, 2009, 09:53:09 AM
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 04, 2009, 08:15:34 PM
hah, you know i'm just joshing you, we've been in the same riding group for years it seems. i think you're a really good rider, despite having so much more extra weight.
<ducks>
( :
Quote from: rktmanfj on August 03, 2009, 09:06:57 PM
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 03, 2009, 08:25:27 PM
randy,
i got the cl-max at N/E. i had it at the spring rally, didn't you notice? oh, wait, you probably had trouble seeing it thru the dust i was leaving you behind in. at. to. ( :
Had we been in the same riding group even once this year, I have no doubt that you would have... but then, I never claimed to be fast. :bye:
Randy T
Indy
Can you tell my internet has been down for a week?
Damned top posters, anyway... :unknown:
Randy T
Indy
i kinda thought on top, since you'd see it and it's the most recent. who knows...
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 11, 2009, 07:44:42 PM
i never know where to put my reply when i'm quoting someone. Quote from: rktmanfj on August 11, 2009, 09:53:09 AM
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 04, 2009, 08:15:34 PM
hah, you know i'm just joshing you, we've been in the same riding group for years it seems. i think you're a really good rider, despite having so much more extra weight.
<ducks>
( :
Its more fun if you have to look for it :sarcastic:
Quote from: rktmanfj on August 03, 2009, 09:06:57 PM
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 03, 2009, 08:25:27 PM
randy,
i got the cl-max at N/E. i had it at the spring rally, didn't you notice? oh, wait, you probably had trouble seeing it thru the dust i was leaving you behind in. at. to. ( :
Had we been in the same riding group even once this year, I have no doubt that you would have... but then, I never claimed to be fast. :bye:
Randy T
Indy
Can you tell my internet has been down for a week?
Damned top posters, anyway... :unknown:
Randy T
Indy
i kinda thought on top, since you'd see it and it's the most recent. who knows...
It's been tough to see anything posted for about a week, since the only access I've had was tiny text on my phone.
And you can't do the smilies on the phone either. :nea:
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 11, 2009, 07:44:42 PM
i kinda thought on top, since you'd see it and it's the most recent. who knows...
If I didn't need bifocals before, I do now. :nyam2:
Randy T
Indy
Quote from: rktmanfj on August 03, 2009, 08:19:58 AM
Just the other day, I noticed that one of my favorite vendors had an outstanding price on flip-front helmets (in this case HJC CL-Max), but nagging safety concerns kept me from ordering.
Then, over the weekend, a good friend of mine was seriously injured while wearing one (a Fulmer model).
Details of the accident vary, but no one disputes that the 18 year old female failed to yield right-of-way, and pulled out in front of him. He t-boned her car, and flew some 150 feet, landing on the pavement. He was wearing a Teknic jacket, which did it's job well. I doubt if he was wearing any lower body armor, and his left leg is broken in three places (two pins). He also got a dislocated finger.
What really concerns me is the head injuries... broken jaw and orbit. It appears that the entire front of the helmet came off upon impact with the car,leaving him partially unprotected for the subsequent impact with the pavement. It also appears that his facial injuries occurred upon initial impact with the car. While it no doubt saved his life, I have to wonder if a conventional full face helmet would have performed better.
Randy T
Indy
Update: My friend finally was able to email me, with a little bit of news, and a pic of his helmet. As you can see, the reports of the condition of his helmet turned out to be very inaccurate. Although the
faceshield pivots broke away, the chinbar pivots and latch are quite intact. Also erroneous were reports that said the helmet struck the car. Given that the impact with the pavement was hard enough to cause a broken jaw and orbit, I'd have to give this one a pretty high rating.
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/rktmanfj/stuff/PICT1245.jpg)
Probably all we'll know about this one, since he was out cold after hitting the deck, and does not remember anything prior.
Randy T
Indy
Flip fronts are a great idea for comfort and convenience. But, they have a reputation for failure in a crash. Until they produce a testing standard to ensure independent verification of crash worthiness then I will stick to safer and more tried ground. SNELL 2010 is the way to go for me, personally.
TerryK -
You've every right to your opinion, and equally every right to state it, but don't you think we've been able to determine that YOU think Snell 2010 is the way to go?
Your message has been delivered 3 times now. Time to take a break.
What "reputation for failure" do flip front helmets have?
I'll agree that none have a Snell 2010 rating, but that does not mean that they have failed, or would. Nor does it mean that in normal street riding that they would be any less protective than your Snell 2010 helmet.
I've owned many helmets in the last 45 years I've ridden. I've only once touched a helmet to the pavement, and it happened to have been a Snell rated hat. Does that mean They are the only ones to hit the ground? Or, that they are the only ones that you can hit the ground with and live? Of course not!
Either you're a Snell stockholder, or you've been brainwashed into believing that there is only one right answer no matter what the question.
Arnie
Arnie, usually your posts make sense, not in this case. SNELL is the golden standard for helmet safety for many reasons. DOT and their standard is 28 years old and with inferior testing requirements. Every credible racing organization requires a SNELL rating. I have ridden with SNELL helmets for 32 years on the street. Flip face helmets, 1) First responders may not know how to operate in a rescue 2) The mechanisms can and do get actuated in a crash. 3) Solid and integrated shell is stronger. 4) They are almost always noiser and heavier than a full face comparable helmet. I share this information for others who are curious and not biased. I have no affiliation wiuth SNELL and will not be censoired because this subject gets you twisted in a bunch. Safety equipment is important inm this hobby and newbies need info not grumpy and illogical run ons. Now if you have a fact about SNELL or flip face helmets that add to the discussion please do respond. If you want to be grumpy, many will just ROFL at your posts. If my posts seem poorly constructed to you and others so be it, do not read it. So, once again, SNELL rocks and is the best choice out there for many logical reasons. Flip and DOT, not so much.
Uh, don't be a dumbass, stop.
Snell isn't the golden standard. Not even fucking close.
Go ahead and read up on some modern research that's been done on crash helmets. In fact, shockingly, with some searching you can find the study that I'm thinking of on this very site. Give you a quick hint though, the best helmet was a relatively cheap Z1R in the tests done.
I have said before and I will say again, the numbers and specs on a helmet don't mean shit to me, other than if I'm racing and require them to meet a specification. The reality is that there aren't any bad full faced helmets today, and wearing any of them is better than wearing none of them in an accident. Mind you I do wear a retardedly expensive Shoei RF1100 with a retardedly expensive mirrored shield, but that's because I find it comfortable and pretty (and I got one hell of a deal on it).
The best helmet is the one that is comfortable enough that you aren't fatigued and avoid the accident you were going to get into.
Quote from: andyb on August 09, 2011, 12:03:31 PM
Uh, don't be a dumbass, stop.
Snell isn't the golden standard. Not even fucking close.
Go ahead and read up on some modern research that's been done on crash helmets. In fact, shockingly, with some searching you can find the study that I'm thinking of on this very site.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=984.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=984.0)
Uh, usually I don't call others a dumbass or feel free to do so. It really does not help to make an argument bud.
But, I have and do read a lot of reports and the SNELL helmets are the way to go. 1) SNELL consistently updates their standards and conducts a ton of research on force distribution, force dwell time and peak force protection. So, physics and bioengineering principles do mean something. 2) The DOT does not do anywhere near the testing and verification of helmet quality as does SNELL, this is just a fact. 3) If SNELL was not on their game and respected why would so many racing organizations and insurance companies insist on the SNELL rating, in a word integrity of testing and excellence in test engineering. So one dumbass test that claims to shows a DOT rated helmet is better or as good as a SNELL rating is not very compelling. It is tempting for some folks to poo poo research and quality standards or wish that cheap construction and materials are as good as expensive materials, research and engineering. This is simply wishful thinking. If you can not pass a SNELL test then your product is not designed to the strictest quality and safety standards, this is why they are the accepted golden standard and defacto requirment for racing. The best and unfortunately the almost always most expensive helmets are SNELL rated and tested. I will pay for a SNELL rating, you do not need to do so but this is gambling with your brain bucket, not a good idea and not something any responsible rider will endorse. My AGV K3 helmet is ECE and DOT rated and a good lid, and stays on the shelf when going for a ride above casual cruise.
Quote from: terryk on August 09, 2011, 12:30:48 PM
Uh, usually I don't call others a dumbass or feel free to do so. It really does not help to make an argument bud.
But, I have and do read a lot of reports and the SNELL helmets are the way to go. 1) SNELL consistently updates their standards and conducts a ton of research on force distribution, force dwell time and peak force protection. So, physics and bioengineering principles do mean something. 2) The DOT does not do anywhere near the testing and verification of helmet quality as does SNELL, this is just a fact. 3) If SNELL was not on their game and respected why would so many racing organizations and insurance companies insist on the SNELL rating, in a word integrity of testing and excellence in test engineering. So one dumbass test that claims to shows a DOT rated helmet is better or as good as a SNELL rating is not very compelling. It is tempting for some folks to poo poo research and quality standards or wish that cheap construction and materials are as good as expensive materials, research and engineering. This is simply wishful thinking. If you can not pass a SNELL test then your product is not designed to the strictest quality and safety standards, this is why they are the accepted golden standard and defacto requirment for racing. The best and unfortunately the almost always most expensive helmets are SNELL rated and tested. I will pay for a SNELL rating, you do not need to do so but this is gambling with your brain bucket, not a good idea and not something any responsible rider will endorse. My AGV K3 helmet is ECE and DOT rated and a good lid, and stays on the shelf when going for a ride above casual cruise.
This post paid for by the Snell Foundation.
Fixed that for ya... :good:
:dash2: Cute retag of my post. But you nor anyone lese has yet to refute that the SNELL 2010 helmet is a superset of both ECE and DOT meaning that all SNELL 2010 helmets pass both ECE and DOT standards. This includes peak force and dwell, softening up the SNELL 2010 force profile. Racing organization choose SNELL. Cheap is cheap in helmets. To each his own but SNELL is the gold standard, like it or not.
Quote from: terryk on August 09, 2011, 01:23:15 PM
:dash2: Cute retag of my post. But you nor anyone lese has yet to refute that the SNELL 2010 helmet is a superset of both ECE and DOT meaning that all SNELL 2010 helmets pass both ECE and DOT standards. This includes peak force and dwell, softening up the SNELL 2010 force profile. Racing organization choose SNELL. Cheap is cheap in helmets. To each his own but SNELL is the gold standard, like it or not.
If you weren't so closed minded, and would actually read the fucking article, you just might change your thinking.
Stop drinking the Kool-Aid and think for yourself. It might be a new concept to you, but you'll catch on to it in time... :good:
Quote from: terryk on August 09, 2011, 01:23:15 PM
SNELL is the gold standard, like it or not.
You seem like a 'black and white' kind of guy, this or that, yin or yang -no middle ground; like one that adheres to the strictures of the scientific method. So riddle me this?
I assume we can agree that that the fundamental purpose of a helmet is to reduce g-force transmission to the head/ brain. The test that Motorcyclist did (had commissioned really) was to measure that g-force to skull transmission with the same precise test, meant to specifically simulate an impact at various speeds, on different helmets. How then did they come up with LESS g's on some of the non-SNELL helmets over the SNELL helmets?
Are you calling them liars? Is their science faulty? Or is it that you cannot/ refuse to see that there *may* be advantages to non-SNELL helmets?
Dan
Quote from: terryk on August 09, 2011, 12:30:48 PM
My AGV K3 helmet is ECE and DOT rated and a good lid, and stays on the shelf when going for a ride above casual cruise.
what I don't understand is if you are so sold on Snell only, how can you say the above and EVEN CONSIDER leaving your driveway with anything BUT a Snell on your head?...a "casual cruise" can getcha knocked plumb silly as easy as any other ride will
Rktman,
I did read this article on motorcycle helmet safety when it was published. I am thinking for myself, SNELL 2010 meets all ECE and DOT standards. The article was written when the SNELL 2005, I believe, standard was in place. So, it is now completely irrelevant as the helmets tested were not built , tested or certified to the current standard by SNELL M2010. So, you need to look for a new argument and new evidence. And frankly, I am unimprssed by one study and do not believe the DOT standard in particular is current or well enough controlled in quality, honor systems are not great for certifcation.
Dan,
same thing I am afraid. The M2010 meets or exceeds the ECE and DOT requirements for force distribution. The article in question really spent more time pn dwell time and force distribution with peak force at impact being secondary. The argument was that the DOT helmet spread the force out more broadly and over a greater length of time, dampening the impact. SNELL bowed to this and smoothed out the dwell and force distribition curve for the new M2010 standard. This combined with certification and riguorous independent testing and random sampling of production seals the deal, SNELL is the way to go and the gold standard of the racing industry.
Now if either of you want to go racing then you will not get on many tracks without a SNELL rated helmet. Track days, perhaps, racing not so much. And, untill someone turns up a few credible studies concerning M2010 versus ECE vs DOT, we lack real facts except that most professional organizations who require motorsport helmets require a SNELL rating for safety. BTW - do you really think Chinese engineers building to a price point and selling to marketing companies really put their best safety engineering into the mix for the sub $100 helmet. How about the sub $200 helmet, not likely as well. Helmet safety is purchased in this case, Arai, Shoei, Bell perhaps AGV and their better products.
Quote from: terryk on August 09, 2011, 03:27:45 PM
Rktman,
I did read this article on motorcycle helmet safety when it was published. I am thinking for myself, SNELL 2010 meets all ECE and DOT standards. The article was written when the SNELL 2005, I believe, standard was in place. So, it is now completely irrelevant as the helmets tested were not built , tested or certified to the current standard by SNELL M2010. So, you need to look for a new argument and new evidence. And frankly, I am unimprssed by one study and do not believe the DOT standard in particular is current or well enough controlled in quality, honor systems are not great for certifcation.
Dan,
same thing I am afraid. The M2010 meets or exceeds the ECE and DOT requirements for force distribution. The article in question really spent more time pn dwell time and force distribution with peak force at impact being secondary. The argument was that the DOT helmet spread the force out more broadly and over a greater length of time, dampening the impact. SNELL bowed to this and smoothed out the dwell and force distribition curve for the new M2010 standard. This combined with certification and riguorous independent testing and random sampling of production seals the deal, SNELL is the way to go and the gold standard of the racing industry.
Now if either of you want to go racing then you will not get on many tracks without a SNELL rated helmet. Track days, perhaps, racing not so much. And, untill someone turns up a few credible studies concerning M2010 versus ECE vs DOT, we lack real facts except that most professional organizations who require motorsport helmets require a SNELL rating for safety. BTW - do you really think Chinese engineers building to a price point and selling to marketing companies really put their best safety engineering into the mix for the sub $100 helmet. How about the sub $200 helmet, not likely as well. Helmet safety is purchased in this case, Arai, Shoei, Bell perhaps AGV and their better products.
Go ahead and believe and do whatever you want... this thread, which I started, about a STREET accident (and vast majority of the posts on this forum, for that matter) are for and about STREET riding, in the real world. I ride on the street, and am not, as a matter of course, going to subject myself to the same velocity-related level of risks that racers do.
Whatever you think of the engineering behind the lower priced helmets in the test, their performance against the 'big boys' in the testing says it all.
Keep on drinking the Kool-Aid... :empathy2:
How many buy or don't buy a helmet based on rating? Every 5 years or so I just go with a high-ish quality brand that fits my head well and comfortably. Last few have been Arai and Shoei and that means I get Snell but really I could give a crap.
If I were so worried about slight safety nuances between DOT/ECE/Snell ratings, probably wouldn't catch me riding a bike at all. I hear those frickin things'll kill ya.
Quote from: terryk on August 09, 2011, 12:30:48 PM
3) If SNELL was not on their game and respected why would so many racing organizations and insurance companies insist on the SNELL rating, in a word integrity of testing and excellence in test engineering. So one dumbass test that claims to shows a DOT rated helmet is better or as good as a SNELL rating is not very compelling. It is tempting for some folks to poo poo research and quality standards or wish that cheap construction and materials are as good as expensive materials, research and engineering. This is simply wishful thinking. If you can not pass a SNELL test then your product is not designed to the strictest quality and safety standards, this is why they are the accepted golden standard and defacto requirment for racing. The best and unfortunately the almost always most expensive helmets are SNELL rated and tested. I will pay for a SNELL rating, you do not need to do so but this is gambling with your brain bucket, not a good idea and not something any responsible rider will endorse. My AGV K3 helmet is ECE and DOT rated and a good lid, and stays on the shelf when going for a ride above casual cruise.
I have been riding for years and I update my helmet about every 3-5 years. My head shape is best fitted by the Long Oval Arai helmets which are SNELL rated. But, when you recognize that SNELL was requiring a "two impact test" and that those circumstances barely ever happen and you recognize that the SNELL 2005 standard (with the two impacts) resulted in a helmet that is too hard to prevent significant G transfer on impact, then you must admit that for
some reason SNELL changed it's standards to align with what DOT and ECE have by asserting; a softer helmet is safer.
Now think about your last comment regarding cost. The SNELL 2010 standard was devised and announced in 2009. If the new standard is better (as agreed by SNELL) then why would they not implement it immediately? Your comment regarding cost is why. SNELL works with the manufacturers and there is a give and take there. They will sell 2005 Standard helmets until 2012 because the manufactures that participate and validate SNELL would lose a ton of cash if they did not have time to adjust manufacturing and burn through existing inventory. If you continue to follow the money, like most things associated with insurance, nothing is happening by chance- it is all tied to saving or making money.
As consumers, we should be instantly protected from inferior standards as soon as they are recognized as inferior....that is what a safety rating standard is for right? SNELL is in business and they have relationships that get them endorsed and authenticated as "the standard" by manufacturers and racing organizations... each with their own motivations and reasons for doing so.
By SNELL's own actions the 2005 Standard is clearly NOT the gold standard. I am sure when the time comes we will see there are issues with the 2010 SNELL standards too.
tim
when i bit it on the dragon doing my most spectacular high side last fall, i was wearing a flip-up hjc. the flip-up chinbar worked perfectly--it stayed in the upright position during my entire flight and landing. ( : luckily, i landed on my back and/or side, or at least i did not land on my face. and the skid marks on the center lower back section of the helmet saved my skull.
I had to lay 'er down and scratched up my black Shoei pretty good on one side.
I'm still wearing it coz it looks all cool and stuntah.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-K0YHNuUjc-U/TSaBz_5xHtI/AAAAAAAAFXo/9on4w8WoMRM/s800/153_6118.JPG)
Nasty fall and slide, glad you are OK, Shoei seemed to do the job. Was your shield locked at the time?
Dean,
When you had your high side, was the chinbar in the upright position before you got tossed off, or did it open on its own?
Arnie
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 09, 2011, 10:51:22 PM
when i bit it on the dragon doing my most spectacular high side last fall, i was wearing a flip-up hjc. the flip-up chinbar worked perfectly--it stayed in the upright position during my entire flight and landing. ( : luckily, i landed on my back and/or side, or at least i did not land on my face. and the skid marks on the center lower back section of the helmet saved my skull.
Quote from: Arnie on August 10, 2011, 11:17:50 AMQuote from: mst3kguy on August 09, 2011, 10:51:22 PM
when i bit it on the dragon doing my most spectacular high side last fall, i was wearing a flip-up hjc. the flip-up chinbar worked perfectly--it stayed in the upright position during my entire flight and landing. ( : luckily, i landed on my back and/or side, or at least i did not land on my face. and the skid marks on the center lower back section of the helmet saved my skull.
Dean,
When you had your high side, was the chinbar in the upright position before you got tossed off, or did it open on its own?
Arnie
Looks to have been open...
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/rktmanfj/Deansliding.jpg)
That's one hell of a picture.
Quote from: andyb on August 10, 2011, 01:13:39 PM
That's one hell of a picture.
I'm just a reposter... no part in it whatsoever.
tRoy gets props for the mods to the pic
it was in the upright position before, during, and after the most spectacular highside. i was actually "taking it easy" and things got a little out of control, apparently. if you look closely, you can see "i believe" by rem playing on the mp3 player of the gps screen. whenever that song pops up when i'm on the bike, it reminds me of that corner. ( :
Quote from: Arnie on August 10, 2011, 11:17:50 AM
Dean,
When you had your high side, was the chinbar in the upright position before you got tossed off, or did it open on its own?
Arnie
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 09, 2011, 10:51:22 PM
when i bit it on the dragon doing my most spectacular high side last fall, i was wearing a flip-up hjc. the flip-up chinbar worked perfectly--it stayed in the upright position during my entire flight and landing. ( : luckily, i landed on my back and/or side, or at least i did not land on my face. and the skid marks on the center lower back section of the helmet saved my skull.
Still blows me away every time I see it.....
I've been considering a modular (aka flip front) helmet - and am glad to see the opinions and data being discussed here - especially since I live in Pennsylvania where wearing a helmet is OPTIONAL - so many don the serious protection of a crew cut or doo-rag before they hit the pavement (odd, the number of MC related deaths has gone through the roof since they let people ride lid-less - anyone who doubts Darwin need only check the stats in PA).
Having walked away from a few nasty crashes (car makes left in front of rider .... rider on 750 2 stroke kawasaki goes off pavement ... rider on Seca 550 drops it at Pocono at 130MPH ... plus a couple "watch this" moments) wearing a full face (non articulated) I believe I'll stick with the inconvenience and relative discomfort and replace the old Bell with another substantial lump - thanks for the conversation!
Cheers
Steve
Quote from: StatDoc on August 10, 2011, 08:44:32 PM
I live in Pennsylvania
Steve, I'm in Thornton, PA -south of West Chester (outside of Philly). Where you at?
Dan
Quote from: StatDoc on August 10, 2011, 08:44:32 PM
I've been considering a modular (aka flip front) helmet - and am glad to see the opinions and data being discussed here - especially since I live in Pennsylvania where wearing a helmet is OPTIONAL - so many don the serious protection of a crew cut or doo-rag before they hit the pavement (odd, the number of MC related deaths has gone through the roof since they let people ride lid-less - anyone who doubts Darwin need only check the stats in PA).
Having walked away from a few nasty crashes (car makes left in front of rider .... rider on 750 2 stroke kawasaki goes off pavement ... rider on Seca 550 drops it at Pocono at 130MPH ... plus a couple "watch this" moments) wearing a full face (non articulated) I believe I'll stick with the inconvenience and relative discomfort and replace the old Bell with another substantial lump - thanks for the conversation!
Cheers
Steve
Snell, or DOT? :biggrin:
Hi Dan -
Abbottstown PA (half way between York and Gettysburg) - grew up in DelCo (Wallingford) - arrived here via Valley Center Kansas and numerous black hole postings -
cheers
Steve
Would appear I replied and it landed in the wrong thread - anyhow - prefer both Snell and DOT although Snell seems more meaningful - when it comes to crew cuts and ball caps I don't believe there's much difference!
Cheers
Steve
well i hope not because you think i saved it, because i didn't. the 0.5 seconds after that photo became "interesting".
Quote from: axiom-r on August 10, 2011, 04:37:49 PM
Still blows me away every time I see it.....
Thanks Dean,
Now IF I'm understanding this correctly, you were riding with the chinbar UP when you crashed, and still the helmet protected you. HJC specifically tell you that the helmet is NOT to be used with the chinbar UP, yet the helmet still kept your brain from splattering all over the pavement when your head hit.
Thus the helmet performed correctly even though you had reduced its strength by not having the helmet chinbar in the closed and locked position.
Yes, you were lucky you didn't hit face first, as you'd be (even) less pretty now :-)
Snell ratings do not require a chinbar. I've had several open-face helmets with Snell ratings. Snell was always intended to be a rating of how well a helmet could protect your brain not your face.
I don't believe I've ever seen a crew cut or a ball cap that had either a Snell or DOT/ECE/AS1698 sticker.
Arnie
Quote from: mst3kguy on August 10, 2011, 10:10:36 PM
well i hope not because you think i saved it, because i didn't. the 0.5 seconds after that photo became "interesting".
Quote from: axiom-r on August 10, 2011, 04:37:49 PM
Still blows me away every time I see it.....
I know..... :blush: you straightened me out on that aspect. The fall doesn't matter- only that you are here and talking about it and hopefully not still sore!
I tried on a couple flip-ups recently. An HJC and a Nolan. In both helmets with the chin bar down my chin/lips/nose are practicallly touching the chinbar, especially on the Nolan it literally touches. A few mm's of clearance w/ HJC.
They otherwise fit my head ok, but the chin part is right up in my face. Probably impossible to take a drink from my camelback with the chinbar down. In a face first crash most of the impact would transfer right to my jaw. Even if the helmet didn't break it would be a likely injury.
Anybody else notice that about the closeness of the chin bar with these modular helmets? Maybe another brand would work better, but off the shelf selection is not good in these parts.
Quote from: ddlewis on August 11, 2011, 10:00:52 AM
<snip> In a face first crash most of the impact would transfer right to my jaw. Even if the helmet didn't break it would be a likely injury. <snip>
That's what happened to Rick with the Fulmer lid in the original post. His jaw was broken, and he was knocked out cold upon impact.
But, he suffered no lasting injury (to his head, anyway), according to the doctors, from what was, by all accounts, a very hard hit. He t-boned a car that pulled out directly in front of him, and apparently the a-pillar launched him several feet into the air, according to eyewitnesses.
The car driver's insurance company has fought him tooth-and-nail, denying liability. :ireful:
Quote from: rktmanfj on August 11, 2011, 10:11:03 AM
That's what happened to Rick with the Fulmer lid in the original post. His jaw was broken, and he was knocked out cold upon impact.
But, he suffered no lasting injury (to his head, anyway), according to the doctors, from what was, by all accounts, a very hard hit. He t-boned a car that pulled out directly in front of him, and apparently the a-pillar launched him several feet into the air, according to eyewitnesses.
The car driver's insurance company has fought him tooth-and-nail, denying liability. :ireful:
ok, I had to re-read. thought his injuries all came about because the bar broke off, but you say face-trauma happened on impact with car. That's exactly what I was afraid of when I tried them on. Smacking your face against the inside of the helmet is better than against pavement.. I'd just as soon pass on the face-smacking part altogether.
Also over on advrider just came across a several hundred post long thread on flip up failures with pictures of broken helmets and messed up faces. This adds up to enough anecdotal evidence to scare me away. I see a new RF1100 in my future.
how can they deny liability if everyone is agreeing their insured is at fault? Probably dragging their feet to delay payment as long as possible.
Quote from: ddlewis on August 11, 2011, 11:36:58 AM
Quote from: rktmanfj on August 11, 2011, 10:11:03 AM
That's what happened to Rick with the Fulmer lid in the original post. His jaw was broken, and he was knocked out cold upon impact.
But, he suffered no lasting injury (to his head, anyway), according to the doctors, from what was, by all accounts, a very hard hit. He t-boned a car that pulled out directly in front of him, and apparently the a-pillar launched him several feet into the air, according to eyewitnesses.
The car driver's insurance company has fought him tooth-and-nail, denying liability. :ireful:
ok, I had to re-read. thought his injuries all came about because the bar broke off, but you say face-trauma happened on impact with car. That's exactly what I was afraid of when I tried them on. Smacking your face against the inside of the helmet is better than against pavement.. I'd just as soon pass on the face-smacking part altogether.
Nope... the way I get it, he t-boned the car right behind the front wheel, and the a-pillar acted as a ramp, launching him several feet into the air. The resulting Superman imitation had him landing hard, face down on the pavement, several feet on the other side of the car.
The chinbar pivots and latch remain intact, in fact, after recovering somewhat, Rick later tried to pull it open, and could not get them to fail.
He had the light concussion from being knocked out, and broken jaw (which had to be wired for several weeks) from impacting the chinbar (not sure if it is the recommended EPS or not), and a badly fractured tib/fib. Lots of bruises and scuffs. I know the jacket was a Teknic textile, not sure about the pants or boots.
Considering all, I'd say his gear did pretty well.
i really have no recollection of how i landed and rolled other than from the scrapes to my gear, and from all indications, the only impact to the helmet was the lower back section. i guess i had my chin tucked in against my chest, thus exposing that portion of the back of my helmet to the impact. man i'm one smart crasher... ( :
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/57910_1380747921589_1318672842_857969_6324340_n.jpg?dl=1)
Quote from: StatDoc on August 10, 2011, 09:34:29 PM
Would appear I replied and it landed in the wrong thread - anyhow - prefer both Snell and DOT although Snell seems more meaningful - when it comes to crew cuts and ball caps I don't believe there's much difference!
Cheers
Steve
Tried on a couple flip fronts (fulmer, HKC and some other off-brand) - found none satisfying - ended up with a Nolan with a fixed chin bar - somehow felt "better" (as in "130 MPH on route 81 better") - at those velocities it may not matter - but somehow a hinged lower section just makes me feel ill at ease -cheers to those who don't get that feeling though - but for dogs sake - at least wear a helmet!
Cheers again
Steve
Quote from: Arnie on August 11, 2011, 09:37:45 AM
I don't believe I've ever seen a crew cut or a ball cap that had either a Snell or DOT/ECE/AS1698 sticker.
For that matter, I don't think SNELL offers it's stamp of approval for any of the flip front helmets. Corrections to this assertion welcome.
Dan
http://www.zeus-helmets.co.uk/zeus-3000.html (http://www.zeus-helmets.co.uk/zeus-3000.html)