Flip Front Helmets

[terryk]

Rktman,

I did read this article on motorcycle helmet safety when it was published. I am thinking for myself, SNELL 2010 meets all ECE and DOT standards. The article was written when the SNELL 2005, I believe, standard was in place. So, it is now completely irrelevant as the helmets tested were not built , tested or certified to the current standard by SNELL M2010. So, you need to look for a new argument and new evidence. And frankly, I am unimprssed by one study and do not believe the DOT standard in particular is current or well enough controlled in quality, honor systems are not great for certifcation.

Dan,

same thing I am afraid. The M2010 meets or exceeds the ECE and DOT requirements for force distribution. The article in question really spent more time pn dwell time and force distribution with peak force at impact being secondary. The argument was that the DOT helmet spread the force out more broadly and over a greater length of time, dampening the impact. SNELL bowed to this and smoothed out the dwell and force distribition curve for the new M2010 standard. This combined with certification and riguorous independent testing and random sampling of production seals the deal, SNELL is the way to go and the gold standard of the racing industry.

Now if either of you want to go racing then you will not get on many tracks without a SNELL rated helmet. Track days, perhaps, racing not so much. And, untill someone turns up a few credible studies concerning M2010 versus ECE vs DOT, we lack real facts except that most professional organizations who require motorsport helmets require a SNELL rating for safety. BTW - do you really think Chinese engineers building to a price point and selling to marketing companies really put their best safety engineering into the mix for the sub $100 helmet. How about the sub $200 helmet, not likely as well. Helmet safety is purchased in this case, Arai, Shoei, Bell perhaps AGV and their better products.  

[rktmanfj]

Rktman,

I did read this article on motorcycle helmet safety when it was published. I am thinking for myself, SNELL 2010 meets all ECE and DOT standards. The article was written when the SNELL 2005, I believe, standard was in place. So, it is now completely irrelevant as the helmets tested were not built , tested or certified to the current standard by SNELL M2010. So, you need to look for a new argument and new evidence. And frankly, I am unimprssed by one study and do not believe the DOT standard in particular is current or well enough controlled in quality, honor systems are not great for certifcation.

Dan,

same thing I am afraid. The M2010 meets or exceeds the ECE and DOT requirements for force distribution. The article in question really spent more time pn dwell time and force distribution with peak force at impact being secondary. The argument was that the DOT helmet spread the force out more broadly and over a greater length of time, dampening the impact. SNELL bowed to this and smoothed out the dwell and force distribition curve for the new M2010 standard. This combined with certification and riguorous independent testing and random sampling of production seals the deal, SNELL is the way to go and the gold standard of the racing industry.

Now if either of you want to go racing then you will not get on many tracks without a SNELL rated helmet. Track days, perhaps, racing not so much. And, untill someone turns up a few credible studies concerning M2010 versus ECE vs DOT, we lack real facts except that most professional organizations who require motorsport helmets require a SNELL rating for safety. BTW - do you really think Chinese engineers building to a price point and selling to marketing companies really put their best safety engineering into the mix for the sub $100 helmet. How about the sub $200 helmet, not likely as well. Helmet safety is purchased in this case, Arai, Shoei, Bell perhaps AGV and their better products.  

Go ahead and believe and do whatever you want...  this thread, which I started, about a STREET accident (and vast majority of the posts on this forum, for that matter) are for and about STREET riding, in the real world.  I ride on the street, and am not, as a matter of course, going to subject myself to the same velocity-related level of risks that racers do.

Whatever you think of the engineering behind the lower priced helmets in the test, their performance against the 'big boys' in the testing says it all.

Keep on drinking the Kool-Aid...     

[ddlewis]

How many buy or don't buy a helmet based on rating?  Every 5 years or so I just go with a high-ish quality brand that fits my head well and comfortably.  Last few have been Arai and Shoei and that means I get Snell but really I could give a crap.   

If I were so worried about slight safety nuances between DOT/ECE/Snell ratings, probably wouldn't catch me riding a bike at all.  I hear those frickin things'll kill ya.

[axiom-r]

3) If SNELL was not on their game and respected why would so many racing organizations and insurance companies insist on the SNELL rating, in a word integrity of testing and excellence in test engineering. So one dumbass test that claims to shows a DOT rated helmet is better or as good as a SNELL rating is not very compelling. It is tempting for some folks to poo poo research and quality standards or wish that cheap construction and materials are as good as expensive materials, research and engineering. This is simply wishful thinking. If you can not pass a SNELL test then your product is not designed to the strictest quality and safety standards, this is why they are the accepted golden standard and defacto requirment for racing. The best and unfortunately the almost always most expensive helmets are SNELL rated and tested. I will pay for a SNELL rating, you do not need to do so but this is gambling with your brain bucket, not a good idea and not something any responsible rider will endorse. My AGV K3 helmet is ECE and DOT rated and a good lid, and stays on the shelf when going for a ride above casual cruise.

I have been riding for years and I update my helmet about every 3-5 years.  My head shape is best fitted by the Long Oval Arai helmets which are SNELL rated.  But, when you recognize that SNELL was requiring a "two impact test" and that those circumstances barely ever happen and you recognize that the SNELL 2005 standard (with the two impacts) resulted in a helmet that is too hard to prevent significant G transfer on impact, then you must admit that for some reason SNELL changed it's standards to align with what DOT and ECE have by asserting; a softer helmet is safer.

Now think about your last comment regarding cost.  The SNELL 2010 standard was devised and announced in 2009. If the new standard is better (as agreed by SNELL) then why would they not implement it immediately?  Your comment regarding cost is why.  SNELL works with the manufacturers and there is a give and take there. They will sell 2005 Standard helmets until 2012 because the manufactures that participate and validate SNELL would lose a ton of cash if they did not have time to adjust manufacturing and burn through existing inventory.  If you continue to follow the money, like most things associated with insurance, nothing is happening by chance- it is all tied to saving or making money.

As consumers, we should be instantly protected from inferior standards as soon as they are recognized as inferior....that is what a safety rating standard is for right? SNELL is in business and they have relationships that get them endorsed and authenticated as "the standard" by manufacturers and racing organizations... each with their own motivations and reasons for doing so.

By SNELL's own actions the 2005 Standard is clearly NOT the gold standard.  I am sure when the time comes we will see there are issues with the 2010 SNELL standards too.

tim

[mst3kguy]

when i bit it on the dragon doing my most spectacular high side last fall, i was wearing a flip-up hjc.  the flip-up chinbar worked perfectly--it stayed in the upright position during my entire flight and landing.  ( :  luckily, i landed on my back and/or side, or at least i did not land on my face.  and the skid marks on the center lower back section of the helmet saved my skull.

[Klavdy]

I had to lay 'er down and scratched up my black Shoei pretty good on one side.
I'm still wearing it coz it looks all cool and stuntah.

[terryk]

Nasty fall and slide, glad you are OK, Shoei seemed to do the job. Was your shield locked at the time?

[Arnie]

Dean,

When you had your high side, was the chinbar in the upright position before you got tossed off, or did it open on its own?

Arnie

when i bit it on the dragon doing my most spectacular high side last fall, i was wearing a flip-up hjc.  the flip-up chinbar worked perfectly--it stayed in the upright position during my entire flight and landing.  ( :  luckily, i landed on my back and/or side, or at least i did not land on my face.  and the skid marks on the center lower back section of the helmet saved my skull.

[rktmanfj]

when i bit it on the dragon doing my most spectacular high side last fall, i was wearing a flip-up hjc.  the flip-up chinbar worked perfectly--it stayed in the upright position during my entire flight and landing.  ( :  luckily, i landed on my back and/or side, or at least i did not land on my face.  and the skid marks on the center lower back section of the helmet saved my skull.

Dean,

When you had your high side, was the chinbar in the upright position before you got tossed off, or did it open on its own?

Arnie

Looks to have been open...

[andyb]

That's one hell of a picture.

[rktmanfj]

That's one hell of a picture.

I'm just a reposter... no part in it whatsoever.

tRoy gets props for the mods to the pic

[mst3kguy]

it was in the upright position before, during, and after the most spectacular highside.  i was actually "taking it easy" and things got a little out of control, apparently.  if you look closely, you can see "i believe" by rem playing on the mp3 player of the gps screen.  whenever that song pops up when i'm on the bike, it reminds me of that corner.  ( :

Dean,

When you had your high side, was the chinbar in the upright position before you got tossed off, or did it open on its own?

Arnie

when i bit it on the dragon doing my most spectacular high side last fall, i was wearing a flip-up hjc.  the flip-up chinbar worked perfectly--it stayed in the upright position during my entire flight and landing.  ( :  luckily, i landed on my back and/or side, or at least i did not land on my face.  and the skid marks on the center lower back section of the helmet saved my skull.

[axiom-r]

Still blows me away every time I see it.....

[StatDoc]

I've been considering a modular (aka flip front) helmet - and am glad to see the opinions and data being discussed here - especially since I live in Pennsylvania where wearing a helmet is OPTIONAL - so many don the serious protection of a crew cut or doo-rag before they hit the pavement (odd, the number of MC related deaths has gone through the roof since they let people ride lid-less - anyone who doubts Darwin need only check the stats in PA).
Having walked away from a few nasty crashes (car makes left in front of rider .... rider on 750 2 stroke kawasaki goes off pavement ... rider on Seca 550 drops it at Pocono at 130MPH ... plus a couple "watch this" moments) wearing a full face (non articulated) I believe I'll stick with the inconvenience and relative discomfort and replace the old Bell with another substantial lump - thanks for the conversation!

Cheers

Steve

[Dan Filetti]

I live in Pennsylvania

Steve, I'm in Thornton, PA -south of West Chester (outside of Philly).  Where you at?

Dan