Anyone running EBC HH Pads?
Do you like them, are there better street options out there? Are organics preferred?
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Dan
Dan, I prefer the OEM pads, now in the R1 calipers, but also back when I had the stock ones....
i had a set of the EBC HH pads on my stock front end and i ditched them after just a few thousand miles..... they were too hard a compound for my riding style (and the FJ which has a lot of engine braking ) had a hard time getting them up to temp and as a result they were very grabby initially. They also soundsed like they were grinding my rotors down to nothing when just rolling the bike around .
maybe the greens would be better as i've heard favorable remarks about their performance but TBH i like (and run) the OEM FZ1 pads.
Kookaloo!
Dan I concur with what Rich and Frank said. In my monoblocks I had oem pads in, but last year put in some EBC HH cause I had them on the shelf. They take a bit to heat up, make grinding noises and annoying squeals. They do stop the bike ok, but I will be going back to oem's shortly. They just feel better and are quieter.
Cheers...Jake
I'm using the Galfer HH's in my monoblocks. They're fine. Yea, they hiss a bit but, I've not seen any adverse wear on my rotors.
Unfortunately I can not go back to organic pads because I'm running the Galfer wave rotors.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 23, 2011, 01:17:24 PM
I'm using the Galfer HH's in my monoblocks. They're fine. Yea, they hiss a bit but, I've not seen any adverse wear on my rotors.
Unfortunately I can not go back to organic pads because I'm running the Galfer wave rotors.
Why not? Do HH pads comtaminate the rotor somehow? Can you only use HH pads on wave rotors?
I kind of doubt it's that serious? Maybe they just want to scare you into always using their pads?
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on March 23, 2011, 04:47:00 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 23, 2011, 01:17:24 PM
I'm using the Galfer HH's in my monoblocks. They're fine. Yea, they hiss a bit but, I've not seen any adverse wear on my rotors.
Unfortunately I can not go back to organic pads because I'm running the Galfer wave rotors.
Why not? Do HH pads comtaminate the rotor somehow? Can you only use HH pads on wave rotors?
I kind of doubt it's that serious? Maybe they just want to scare you into always using their pads?
DavidR.
So then, what kind of pads do ya run on the Chinese wave rotors? :scratch_one-s_head:
Randy T
Indy
Quote from: rktmanfj on March 23, 2011, 04:59:20 PM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on March 23, 2011, 04:47:00 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 23, 2011, 01:17:24 PM
I'm using the Galfer HH's in my monoblocks. They're fine. Yea, they hiss a bit but, I've not seen any adverse wear on my rotors.
Unfortunately I can not go back to organic pads because I'm running the Galfer wave rotors.
Why not? Do HH pads comtaminate the rotor somehow? Can you only use HH pads on wave rotors?
I kind of doubt it's that serious? Maybe they just want to scare you into always using their pads?
DavidR.
So then, what kind of pads do ya run on the Chinese wave rotors? :scratch_one-s_head:
Randy T
Indy
I have been told that soft organic pads get eaten up by the sharp edges of the wave rotors. Like cheese thru a cheese grater.
Galfer dosen't care whose pads you run, as long as they are rated HH or harder.
In big bold letters on the Galfer package:
WARNING: USE BRAKE PADS RATED HH OR HARDER WITH THESE ROTORS. DO NOT USE ORGANIC BRAKE PADS. THE USE OF ORGANIC PADS WILL RESULT IN PREMATURE PAD WEAR AND BRAKE FAILURE RESULTING IN POSSIBLE INJURY AND OR DEATH. The warning is repeated in Spanish and French.
Perhaps the manufacturer is trying to tell me something? Just a guess. I don't know if the eBay China knockoff's have the same warning.
Pat,
Not arguing, just trying to see the logic.
The edge thing kind of makes sense, but is it significantly different than the holes in my drilled rotors? My organic pads seem to last a very long time.
I recall reading that there's something unique about the edges on a wave rotor (like the edge is an additional braking surface?), but don't remember it being particularly bad for organic pads. Holes in a drilled rotor are for giving water somewhere to go, but I kind of thought the reason for a wave rotor was mainly for weight reduction.
I think we've had this discussion before, but the frictional force between 2 surfaces is not a big function of the contact area. It's more dependent on the coefficient of friction between the 2 surfaces and the normal (caliper piston) force applied. Wave rotors have reduced surface area (and weight), but it doesn't affect their ability to create stopping power. Does a wave rotor run hotter since it has less surface area to dissipate heat? Or do the wave surfaces actually add extra dissipation surface along the perimeter of the rotor?
I have a somewhat jaded view of the braking world. Especially brake shops who claim that rotors need to be turned at every pad change so that on the 3rd pad change your rotors are too thin and you need to buy new rotors (and have them turned before installation). I haven't had a rotor turned in that last 30 years on any of my vehicles and my brakes work just fine (as long as there's no rotor damage from neglect). I guess that cynical attitude spills over to all aspects of brake components.
DavidR.
David, I'm not sure exactly why, but the Galfer folks seem insistent about using HH or better pads. In fact, they were so adamant, that when I bought the set of wave rotors, they sent me a free set of HH pads to help ensure that I use them.
Galfer has some smart folks who know more about brake systems and their product than I.
It's interesting to note that HH pads are not mentioned here: http://www.galferusa.com/Basic_Rotor_Installation_Tips.pdf (http://www.galferusa.com/Basic_Rotor_Installation_Tips.pdf)
My hunch is that it's the long sharp edges on the wave rotors swishing across the pad surface that's detrimental. We know organics are fine with drilled rotors.
Tell you what, when my current HH's wear down, I'll replace them with some oem organics and report back how they work.
I'll have to sand off the old HH boundary layer on the rotor, so I can deposit a new boundary layer with a different compound pad, but it's no big deal.
Oh sure, thanks Pat.
Now if you die because:
THE USE OF ORGANIC PADS WILL RESULT IN PREMATURE PAD WEAR AND BRAKE FAILURE RESULTING IN POSSIBLE INJURY AND OR DEATH.
I'll feel all guilty. Because I'm sure you had your rotors "installed by a factory trained professional."
:-)
Again, I'm just somewhat skeptical of such over-reactive claims (by the manufacturer, not you)
Here's how I translate the manufacturer's statement:
"If you have enough money to buy our overpriced rotors, then you must be able to afford our most expensive pads. Thanks for contributing to our bottom line now go out and share the cool-aid with your friends."
I can believe that wave rotors may be harder on organic pads than HH pads. But I seriously doubt that those rotors will chew through a set of organics in 30 miles and send you flying off the nearest cliff. :-)
But as with all topics motorcycle related (ie oil, tires, fuel grade, etc), I encourage riders to use whatever they want to make them comfortable and confident about their bike.
For me, it's diesel oil, green pads and a bias ply Harley rear tire. I guess it's good that I don't ride anywhere near cliffs in Texas. :-)
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on March 23, 2011, 09:32:56 PM
"....For me, it's diesel oil, green pads and a bias ply Harley rear tire. I guess it's good that I don't ride anywhere near cliffs in Texas..... :-)
DavidR.
You forgot to mention your total disregard for "the" warning:
USE ONLY DOT3 or DOT4 BRAKE FLUID FROM A SEALED CONTAINER.
I wonder how many silver bullets my guardian angel has left ??
Quote from: rktmanfj on March 23, 2011, 04:59:20 PM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on March 23, 2011, 04:47:00 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 23, 2011, 01:17:24 PM
I'm using the Galfer HH's in my monoblocks. They're fine. Yea, they hiss a bit but, I've not seen any adverse wear on my rotors.
Unfortunately I can not go back to organic pads because I'm running the Galfer wave rotors.
Why not? Do HH pads comtaminate the rotor somehow? Can you only use HH pads on wave rotors?
I kind of doubt it's that serious? Maybe they just want to scare you into always using their pads?
DavidR.
So then, what kind of pads do ya run on the Chinese wave rotors? :scratch_one-s_head:
Randy T
Indy
I have a set of Asian rotors that just got last week and they look just as well made as stock rotors. I have not put them on yet, but I do plan on running stock pads w/ my monoblocks. After I puts some miles on them I'll report back.
LA Mike
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on March 23, 2011, 09:32:56 PM
For me, it's diesel oil, green pads and a bias ply Harley rear tire.
DavidR.
After reading of all of everybody's mods, I was beginning to think I was the only one who was going this route. I'm with
you, David.
I do, however, use DOT 4 exclusively (and
always from a sealed container). Brake fluid exchanges annually on the bike and every-other year on the cars.
You read through all of that and your contribution is a spell check????!!! Come on TRoy, you can do better than that, Whatchagot? :-)
Mike,
I forgot to mention that I'm all DOT5 and I NEVER change it. The DOT 5 fluid in my slave cylinder has been in there since I installed a new cylinder back in '99. Same for the brake fluid. Been in there since I did the front end conversion back in the '03 time frame.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on March 24, 2011, 11:10:10 AM
I forgot to mention that I'm all DOT5 and I NEVER change it. The DOT 5 fluid in my slave cylinder has been in there since I installed a new cylinder back in '99. Same for the brake fluid. Been in there since I did the front end conversion back in the '03 time frame.
DavidR.
Same here for my brakes, and the clutch probably will be by rally time.
Randy T
Indy
I've had good luck with EBC green pads, but they're really noisy.
Brakes are for people that don't plan ahead. Fooey! :)
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on March 24, 2011, 11:10:10 AM
your contribution, Whatchagot?
whatch
Ugot.
contribution: the tree never recovered.
Can someone educate me on the differences between HH pads & organic? Any feedback on EBC organics?
Quote from: simi_ed on March 25, 2011, 09:34:06 AM
Can someone educate me on the differences between HH pads & organic? Any feedback on EBC organics?
From EBC:
There are three types of brake pad used on modern Motorcycles and these fall into these groups, Organic, semi metallic or sintered.
Quickly explained, semi metallic pads are blended with up to 30 or 50% cheap steel fibre, organic pads are made with man made fibres such as Kevlar or Twaron bonded together with a petrochemical resin and sintered metal pads are copper alloy fused together under heat and pressure.
EBC Brakes makes only Organic and Sintered Brake pads, we do not subscribe to the steel fibre technology as suitable for motorcycle brakes for numerous reasons.
Elsewhere on this website we have explained sintered brake pads in detail.
Organic pads have attracted many enthusiasts because of the way they work. They are inherently "Softer" easier on rotors and have a brake "feel" preferred by many riders.
EBC make only two formulations of organic pads for motorcycles which are described as follows.
Street Sport DMX compound.
Made with Dupont Kevlar fibre base this material have sold over 18 million sets alone since adopted. It is surely one of the best selling Motorcycle brake materials ever made and has passed every known standard test time and time again. It has been rated by top German consumer Magazine Motorrad as a compound that outperformed all compared organic pads in friction level tested. DMX compound is TUV tested and approved and is the first ever material to pass the European ECE R90 brake safety test where it was tested alongside sintered metal pads. With a GG rated friction rating, technically this material has a lower rating for brake power over sintered pads but on the machine, which is where it counts, this materials impresses. Having past the ECE R 90 test on motorcycles designed for sintered pads there is no doubt that this materials CAN BE USED TO REPLACE sintered pads on most motorcycles with safety.
EBC Brakes sintered motorcycle brake pad range includes the world famous Double-H sintered brakes, the R series ATV sintered brakes, and the MXS sintered motocross race brakes plus the high durability SV series severe duty sintered brakes. Latest addition to the EBC sintered brakes range is the EPFA series Extreme Pro ultra high friction sintered race brakes for fast sport bike use and road racing.
Enduro riders often choose the carbon graphite X series (or TT series as they are known in Europe) for their cool running, low heat characteristics in fast motocross and enduro races.
What is sintering???
This is the fusing together under heat and pressure of metallic particles and in the case of brakes it blends various other elements to enhance friction properties and wear life.
Sintered Brakes have become a standard on 99% of Motorcycles and ATVs from the OE Builders and they also form a large percentage of the aftermarket for bikes and ATV's.
Sintered brakes last longer and generally speaking handle the heat of heavy braking better. In Road Race use we have to admit that there are almost NO organic pads that come close to Sintered compounds but that does not hold true in streetbike use where EBC Organic compounds in terms of performance are almost undetectable from sintered. Proof of this is that EBC Brakes was the first and probably still is the only Brake manufacturer with EC E R 90 brake safety approval of both its sintered Brakes and its Organic brakes on Motorcycle for public highway use.
Although attempts were made by the OEMs a few years ago to cut costs of Sintered brakes by using sintered IRON, that was deemed a failure and these days the base material is copper.
Sintered copper brakes are made by one of two processes, pressure sintering in a vacuum furnace or sintering through a belt furnace in a controlled atmosphere. The steel backing plates for the brake pads are copper coated and a preformed sintered copper "Puck" is located onto pips in the plate (either male or female) and the parts are passed through a furnace. At a pre-determined temperature the copper coating under the pad puck melts and fused the puck and plate together.
Sintering is a very exact process and the EBC expertise has made it a world leader in such technology and gained it numerous OE contracts.
In the aftermarket EBC continues to offer sintered brakes for applications requiring longer life and higher heat performance and organic pads for sport and general purpose street use.
Both work well in their respective markets and have a place in the industry, elsewhere on this website we can explain the merits of each compound type and assist you in choosing what is right for your riding requirements.
HTH,
Randy T
Indy
Quote from: simi_ed on March 25, 2011, 09:34:06 AM
Can someone educate me on the differences between HH pads & organic? Any feedback on EBC organics?
Well, from what I can gather from the website and its "spiderweb" of information...
HH pads are sintered. They are regarded highly by many motorcycle riders. (I'm mainly going off sites like this and the Ducati site I also frequent (yup, have one and folks on there like them).
Regarding EBC's organics, and speaking STRICTLY from personal experience (with automotive GreenStuff pads), I have managed to screw up 3 sets of brand new ( 2 Brembo, 1 Zimmermann) rotors using EBC GreenStuff pads. While it is possible that all 3 sets of rotors were not well manufactured and had inherent "pulsing" from the factory, it is highly unlikely. The only (unfortunate) constant was EBC GreenStuff brake pads. I tried the "break-in" procedures and contemplated various animal sacrifices, to no avail.
After this episode, I can only recommend that you avoid EBC organics. Again, this is only from my personal experience. You might never have a problem. I, however, will never, ever, purchase another EBC brake pad. They failed to impress me.
Oh, and currently, I'm ok with Ferodo and Galfer. So far, they haven't failed me. On the FJ, 748, or my 4-wheel vehicle.
Finally got to take the Gixxer for a spin today after replacing all of the brake fluids, and putting on new EBC HH pads up front. Let me tell you: Holly Shit!
It is like riding a different bike entirely. One finger does what 3 or 4 did in the past, feel is MUCH improved too. The first time I grabbed the front brakes, I nearly did a stoppie, accidentally. I briefly felt the rear suspension fully extend anyway... Switched over to one finger and all was right in the world.
Wish I had done this sooner.
Seriously.
Dan
Quote from: LA Mike on March 24, 2011, 05:53:29 AM
Quote from: rktmanfj on March 23, 2011, 04:59:20 PM
So then, what kind of pads do ya run on the Chinese wave rotors? :scratch_one-s_head:
Randy T
Indy
I have a set of Asian rotors that just got last week and they look just as well made as stock rotors. I have not put them on yet, but I do plan on running stock pads w/ my monoblocks. After I puts some miles on them I'll report back.
LA Mike
(popcorn) (popcorn) (popcorn)
Anything to report?
Randy T
Indy
Quote from: rktmanfj on June 01, 2011, 08:58:47 AM
(popcorn) (popcorn) (popcorn)
Anything to report?
Randy T
I don't know about Asian rotors, but your question did prompt me to chime in about the medium term results of putting EBC HH pads on my Gixxer. I have about 1500 miles on them so I can report with some data points.
Now, I swapped out the brake fluid at the same time, so that's a bit of a confounding variable, but breaking is vastly improved. Initial bite and feel is at least 50% better than it was, and it got better as the pads bedded in -maybe 250 miles. The dramatic difference makes me wonder if the previous pads -worn down to +/- 20% life left, had been corrupted with something.
I'm glad I made that change, for me anyway.
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on June 01, 2011, 09:27:21 AM
I don't know about Asian rotors, but your question did prompt me to chime in about the medium term results of putting EBC HH pads on my Gixxer. I have about 1500 miles on them so I can report with some data points.
Now, I swapped out the brake fluid at the same time, so that's a bit of a confounding variable, but breaking is vastly improved. Initial bite and feel is at least 50% better than it was, and it got better as the pads bedded in -maybe 250 miles. The dramatic difference makes me wonder if the previous pads -worn down to +/- 20% life left, had been corrupted with something.
I'm glad I made that change, for me anyway.
Dan
Thanks, Dan... I returned from Boone with my last set of OEM Monobloc pads worn paper thin.
Two of my three YZF fronts currently wear OEM rotors, but I plan to put a set of the Wave knock-offs on the other one, and my spare rear wheel. Both of those were purchased without rotors.
I have EBC HH in the rear caliper right now, and while it's great while riding 2-up, it's almost
too much when riding solo.
Randy T
Indy
[ndy T
Indy
[/quote]
I have a set of Asian rotors that just got last week and they look just as well made as stock rotors. I have not put them on yet, but I do plan on running stock pads w/ my monoblocks. After I puts some miles on them I'll report back.
LA Mike
I'm currently running Chinese wave rotors, monoblocks
with oem pads and fresh dot 4 fluid. Front brakes are not up to expectation so I'm switching over to some new D P HH pads before leaving for the WCR tomorrow. By the time I get to California I should know if HH pads are an improvement. Hein
For me the jury is still out as to wether the HH compound is the answer for front brakes. I put 3700 kms on the Chinese rotors with monoblocks and DP HH pads while attending the WCR. No complaints about the braking power, however I found the initial bite was very aggresive and lever "feel" was a bit wooden. I prefer the feel of my oem brakes on my FZ1. Possibly the pads that came with my used monoblocks were contaminated and caused the lack of brake power initially. I'll run the HH pads for a while but probably I'll buy a set of oem pads and try again. Hein.
Quote from: hein on June 09, 2011, 12:07:07 PM
For me the jury is still out as to wether the HH compound is the answer for front brakes. I put 3700 kms on the Chinese rotors with monoblocks and DP HH pads while attending the WCR. No complaints about the braking power, however I found the initial bite was very aggresive and lever "feel" was a bit wooden. I prefer the feel of my oem brakes on my FZ1. Possibly the pads that came with my used monoblocks were contaminated and caused the lack of brake power initially. I'll run the HH pads for a while but probably I'll buy a set of oem pads and try again. Hein.
Hein, if you switch back to OEM on the wave rotor keep a very close watch on them. Some have said that you need to use the HH pads on the wave stuff, OEM gets eaten up quickly. When you do please report back, the feedback on this would be great. The OEM might be fine on the waves.
Well, being out of OEM monoblock pads, I ordered up a set of EBC HH for the YZF front end.
After 150 highway miles, I suppose they still have some bedding-in to do, but at this point are no better or worse than the OEMs (DOT 5).
We will do some more testing over the weekend... :good:
Asian wave rotors arriving soon for the spare front rim, but it will be a while before it goes on. The Shinko Raven fronts wear pretty well.
Randy T
Indy
The problem must be the DOT 5. :-)
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on July 07, 2011, 10:34:05 PM
The problem must be the DOT 5. :-)
DavidR.
Why of course it is... Been There, Heard That. :i_am_so_happy:
Randy T
Indy
So I've read the mixed reviews of the HH pads, and it leads me to 1 of 2 conclusions: 1) They are better suited for Gixxers?!?? Not sure why that would be so I'm now leaning towards, 2) the old pads having been glazed or contaminated or something. What I do know is that I still really like the way my brakes responds and they are still markedly better than the old set I took off. It's still a two fingers affair, whereas before it was all of them and a much firmer grip.
At some point I had thought I'd upgrade the master to the Brembo, but I'm in no real hurry to do this mod, after simply doing the fluid and HH pads...
YRMV,
Dan