FJowners.com

Maybe I'm just misfortunate, but these bearings lasted ONLY 17000 km. Maybe someone finds this info useful.

All Balls are Chinese.....questionable quality IMHO.  I always buy quality bearings, double sealed (if appropriate).  Sure they cost twice as much but in the big picture they're worth the peace of mind.

Yamaha oem are Koyo bearings.

They cost a little more than the China stuff but they are the best IMHO.

Since I got into motorcycles in 2004, I've never caught on to why All Balls seems to be the schnizzle for a bunch of people. Maybe just the catchy name and they think these are somehow domestic, motorcycle specific bearings. They just buy cheap bearings in bulk from changing sources and repackage them. Simple really.

I think you have as much chance of getting a lemon All Balls as going straight from Ali-whatever online from China. From the first year I was reading of guys opening the packaging and seeing early signs of corrosion; "exploding"t during the replacement. others breaking down in the first few months. Then it would tail off and a year or so later, back to finding lemons.

I prefer to order and pickup from a local industrial distributor, getting current stock of the same bearings supplied to factories running machinery 24/7, and let the distributor worry about where they come from if they pass the grade for no nonsense applications.

Quote from: balky1 on November 03, 2019, 03:47:02 AM
Maybe I'm just misfortunate, but these bearings lasted ONLY 17000 km. Maybe someone finds this info useful.

I've got more than that from mine, your not using a high pressure water cleaner to wash the bike?

Quote from: Charlie-brm on November 03, 2019, 11:34:50 AM

I think you have as much chance of getting a lemon All Balls as going straight from Ali-whatever online from China. From the first year I was reading of guys opening the packaging and seeing early signs of corrosion; "exploding"t during the replacement. others breaking down in the first few months. Then it would tail off and a year or so later, back to finding lemons.

RPM sell them, so I they must be ok

I used all balls bearings when I changed mine a year ago.Ive got over ten thousand miles on them with no problems yet.Ill check them when I change out my tires again next week.They looked good corrosion free and rolled smoothly when I installed them and everytime I've changed tires so far.I'm not promoting Chinese bearings but I haven't had any problems.My son Ian is using them in his zzr 1200 also.

No pressure washer used. They look mint, absolutely no corrosion. Even the wheel had no sideplay. I would have never noticed it if I hadn't been changing the tire. Then, the left one is completely seized and the right one turns but you feel grinding inside.
I thought they were quality, since it is a US brand, but now that I heard more negative experiences I'm more sure the quality is  :negative:
Hopefully this thread helps someone.

Charlie, I could not have put it any better and agree with everything you say.


I would never buy bearings from a reseller repackaged under their own name, I have no idea what I'm buying.  A bearing is not the sort of thing where quality can be assessed by sight or feel so a known and trusted manufacturer's name or supplier is really your only guarantee.
They are, in nearly all applications cheap to buy compared to the cost of labour to replace them, the cost of breakdown and the cost of premature failure, especially in industrial applications. Saving literally a few dollars up front to buy bearings of unknown origin is a false economy.

Bearing services are common and bearings for our bikes are probably something we'll only ever buy once, and they cost less than a tank of fuel per wheel and are not difficult to track down, so do it right.

Not saying every All Balls bearing is going to be bad but it is a lucky dip.

Bearings that feel smooth when turned or spun in your fingers are not necessarily in good condition either, they sometimes only show signs of wear when loaded up.

Noel

Go with Timkin or other known name brands and you won't have any trouble.  Call Charlie at CBR Bearings and he'll hook you up with good stuff and minimal shipping charges.  I've gotten bearings for both my FJ and my old '06 FJR.

I got an All Balls kit for the stearing head bearings and they had the wrong size for one of the bearings.  All Balls refused to acknowledge it didn't fit.  Never bought them again.

https://www.cbrbearing.com/ (https://www.cbrbearing.com/)

Quote from: Sparky84 on November 03, 2019, 08:40:20 PM
RPM sell them (All Balls), so I they must be ok

Sparky, yes we sell All Balls and have sold hundreds of sets over the years. To date I do not recall a single issue, but then again unless there is a problem I won't pay much attention to them. If they were a problem, I would not sell them.

Now, you guys need to stop fooling yourself that "brand name" bearings are coming from manufacturing of better courses.

Former bearing company BCA, was bought up by National Oil Seal probably ten years ago or more. BCA and now National bearings are what I have used now for more than 30 years. I started noticing on the bearings many years ago the manufacture location had left the US. These items are now made in many other countries outside the US, whereas before they all said USA on them.

I still use them and have not had any issues with them to date.

So, please don't fool yourself into thinking "brand name" bearings are better because they are "brand name"...They are all made where labor and materials are the cheapest.

I recently purchased wheel bearings for my forklift. I ended up getting Komatsu bearings because of the industrial application, from the local "Motion Industries" bearing supply house. When they arrived, three boxes said made in China and the fourth made in Mexico.

Don't fool yourselves that name brand bearings or those supplied at a bearing house are not made overseas.

Balky, if you got the All Balls from me, let me know and I can talk to my supplier about the issue. If not from me, it might be worth reaching out to the company you bought them from and see if they will work with you.

Randy - RPM

Hi Randy. No, not from you.
The story continues in unforseen way. Looking from outside, they look perfect so I went ahead and accused All Balls for being bad. I was curious as to why the sprocket carrier bearing is in perfect operating condition and the other two are toast. I removed both bearings aaaaand surprise:

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4914_04_11_19_10_36_19.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4914_04_11_19_10_35_49.jpeg)

I was surprised with the amount of water and rust inside. Both oil seals and O-ring under the sprocket carrier look great. Furthermore, like I said, outside of the bearings looked nice. So I cleaned inside of the hub and took a look.
Tell me, do you also see a crack there?

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4914_04_11_19_10_34_13.jpeg)
pictured from sprocket side

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4914_04_11_19_10_34_49.jpeg)
pictured from disc side

I made the darker longitudinal marks across the crack with a screwdriver so disregard them.

So I lashed out on All Balls before checking things. On the other hand, shouldn't sealed bearings survive this? New Koyo bearings are ordered. Although, seems I will need a hub also....  :shout:

Quote from: balky1 on November 04, 2019, 11:09:59 AM
So I lashed out on All Balls before checking things. On the other hand, shouldn't sealed bearings survive this? New Koyo bearings are ordered. Although, seems I will need a hub also....  :shout:

Wow, good catch on the crack. Where is the crack in relation to the spoke?

It is big enough to allow the water too pool inside, that is a significant crack and fortunately was found before a failure.

Now, as far as the sealed bearings...

No, the bearing will not seal out moisture that is pooled against the seal surface and the rotating center. There is no spring to seal the seal against the rotating center like in a car front wheel seal. The actual seals out side of the wheel bearings are designed to keep the water away form the bearing. But, Yamaha did not plan for water on the back side of the bearing and thus no true seal there...

I'm interested to know where the crack is in relation to the spoke.

Randy - RPM

I have used All Balls Bearings for years and have had them fail, but I never thought about pointing fingers at the bearing manufacturer. Wheel bearings are a consumable item, they take a lot of abuse in often times very adverse conditions.

Not everyone may agree here but this is my take on bearing lubrication;

I was trained by the military as a Helicopter mechanic. Part of our job was to maintain the drive train which contained more than a dozen drive shafts with bearings connecting them. I was trained that when greasing the bearings, to pump enough grease in until you saw old grease beginning to come out of the outer seal. This procedure was held in very high regard, as a bearing failure on a helicopter flying at 10,000 feet can have catastrophic consequences.

To relate this to motorcycle wheel bearings. Regardless of the brand of bearing that I install in my wheels, I do the following.
When I am ready to install new bearings, i use a small pick and remove the dust cover from both sides. You may be surprised at the amount of grease actually there, or lack there of. I use WD-40 and douse the bearings and work the bearings until most of the original grease has been removed. I wipe everything off and then repack the bearings as full as I can. I put one dust seal back in and work the bearing, then add more grease. Enough that when I put the other seal on that grease oozes out as I am installing the seal. Install the bearings in the wheel and you are all set for many miles.
I have used Lucas Marine grade synthetic grease for years and recently began using the Redline synthetic grease that RPM sells.
I also ALWAYS put a thin coating of grease on the entire axle shaft before I install the wheel.


Fred

I have had All-Balls rear bearings ( all 3 of them) on my FJ for over 50,000 miles.
I check them each time I swap a rear tire on.
I have never noticed anything wrong with them.

Quote from: aviationfred on November 04, 2019, 07:26:35 PM
I have used All Balls Bearings for years and have had them fail, but I never thought about pointing fingers at the bearing manufacturer. Wheel bearings are a consumable item, they take a lot of abuse in often times very adverse conditions.

Not everyone may agree here but this is my take on bearing lubrication;

I was trained by the military as a Helicopter mechanic. Part of our job was to maintain the drive train which contained more than a dozen drive shafts with bearings connecting them. I was trained that when greasing the bearings, to pump enough grease in until you saw old grease beginning to come out of the outer seal. This procedure was held in very high regard, as a bearing failure on a helicopter flying at 10,000 feet can have catastrophic consequences.

To relate this to motorcycle wheel bearings. Regardless of the brand of bearing that I install in my wheels, I do the following.
When I am ready to install new bearings, i use a small pick and remove the dust cover from both sides. You may be surprised at the amount of grease actually there, or lack there of. I use WD-40 and douse the bearings and work the bearings until most of the original grease has been removed. I wipe everything off and then repack the bearings as full as I can. I put one dust seal back in and work the bearing, then add more grease. Enough that when I put the other seal on that grease oozes out as I am installing the seal. Install the bearings in the wheel and you are all set for many miles.
I have used Lucas Marine grade synthetic grease for years and recently began using the Redline synthetic grease that RPM sells.
I also ALWAYS put a thin coating of grease on the entire axle shaft before I install the wheel.


Fred

Fred, I have great respect for your knowledge on bike maintenance and you are probably one of the very few people here who've actually had 'formal' training in this area. I know exactly what you're talking about on the heli's but the sealed-for-life bearings we use on our bikes are a different thing.

Why would these giant manufacturers who literally keep the wheels of industry turning not know how much and of what type and viscosity grease to add to their bearings?  If you took it on yourself to modify a bearing as you describe before fitting it to a plane or heli, they'd hang you out to dry!

Good advice about the greased shaft.

Noel

Quote from: racerrad8 on November 04, 2019, 10:36:56 AM


Don't fool yourselves that name brand bearings or those supplied at a bearing house are not made overseas.

Balky, if you got the All Balls from me, let me know and I can talk to my supplier about the issue. If not from me, it might be worth reaching out to the company you bought them from and see if they will work with you.

Randy - RPM

The Timkins I've gotten all said "Made in Japan". FWTW.

Quote from: aviationfred on November 04, 2019, 07:26:35 PM
I have used All Balls Bearings for years and have had them fail, but I never thought about pointing fingers at the bearing manufacturer. Wheel bearings are a consumable item, they take a lot of abuse in often times very adverse conditions.

Not everyone may agree here but this is my take on bearing lubrication;

I was trained by the military as a Helicopter mechanic. Part of our job was to maintain the drive train which contained more than a dozen drive shafts with bearings connecting them. I was trained that when greasing the bearings, to pump enough grease in until you saw old grease beginning to come out of the outer seal. This procedure was held in very high regard, as a bearing failure on a helicopter flying at 10,000 feet can have catastrophic consequences.

To relate this to motorcycle wheel bearings. Regardless of the brand of bearing that I install in my wheels, I do the following.
When I am ready to install new bearings, i use a small pick and remove the dust cover from both sides. You may be surprised at the amount of grease actually there, or lack there of. I use WD-40 and douse the bearings and work the bearings until most of the original grease has been removed. I wipe everything off and then repack the bearings as full as I can. I put one dust seal back in and work the bearing, then add more grease. Enough that when I put the other seal on that grease oozes out as I am installing the seal. Install the bearings in the wheel and you are all set for many miles.
I have used Lucas Marine grade synthetic grease for years and recently began using the Redline synthetic grease that RPM sells.
I also ALWAYS put a thin coating of grease on the entire axle shaft before I install the wheel.


Fred

Good stuff.  I'm going to try this on my next bearing change (hopefully, no time soon).

Quote from: ribbert on November 05, 2019, 06:18:20 AM

Quote from: aviationfred on November 04, 2019, 07:26:35 PM
To relate this to motorcycle wheel bearings. Regardless of the brand of bearing that I install in my wheels, I do the following.

When I am ready to install new bearings, i use a small pick and remove the dust cover from both sides. You may be surprised at the amount of grease actually there, or lack there of. I use WD-40 and douse the bearings and work the bearings until most of the original grease has been removed. I wipe everything off and then repack the bearings as full as I can. I put one dust seal back in and work the bearing, then add more grease. Enough that when I put the other seal on that grease oozes out as I am installing the seal. Install the bearings in the wheel and you are all set for many miles.

I have used Lucas Marine grade synthetic grease for years and recently began using the Redline synthetic grease that RPM sells.

I also ALWAYS put a thin coating of grease on the entire axle shaft before I install the wheel.

Fred

Fred, I have great respect for your knowledge on bike maintenance and you are probably one of the very few people here who've actually had 'formal' training in this area. I know exactly what you're talking about on the heli's but the sealed-for-life bearings we use on our bikes are a different thing.

Why would these giant manufacturers who literally keep the wheels of industry turning not know how much and of what type and viscosity grease to add to their bearings?  If you took it on yourself to modify a bearing as you describe before fitting it to a plane or heli, they'd hang you out to dry!

Good advice about the greased shaft.

Noel

Okay, Noel once again you are using big words like Industry and Formal which you failed to address in the last post that went to the technical side. (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18986.msg192442#msg192442 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18986.msg192442#msg192442))

So, once again I asked here for any supporting documents or data other than opinion. Do you have any supporting data that contradicts Fred's bearing packing method?

I ask, because I am "formally trained" and maintain my training and I currently work in the "Industry".

Both by operating a FJ based motorcycle shop, a shop that works on and maintains several different types of race cars, I also work on all types of vehicles used for highway travel, plus I maintain my required Automotive of Service Excellence (ASE) certifications as a Master Automotive and Commercial Truck Technician.

I have the full gamut in the shop right now. An FJ on the lift for repairs electrical repairs, a FJ engine torn down for transmission repairs, a race car that is getting the engine rebuilt and a 1967 big block El Camino being retrofitted with fuel injection. (pictures attached)

I have also attached several photos including a photo of my "formal" training certificate and a current letter from ASE documenting my master level of certification.

Now Noel, with my pedigree established as an expert. Please, please, please...

Provide something in the way of fact from the "Industry"... Please.

Not yours or someone else's opinion that the way Fred is packing his bearings is incorrect. You have no issue discrediting Fred's "formal training" by telling him he would be hung out to dry, but again unless you have something from the "Industry" you are still offering only your opinion.

Now, you ask the question; Why would these giant manufacturers who literally keep the wheels of industry turning not know how much and of what type and viscosity grease to add to their bearings?

I'll offer you my opinion as someone that supplies and sells bearings to customers all over the world. I have nothing from the manufacture, so this is my solely my opinion as a formally trained and currently certified mechanic, a parts supplier (including sealed bearings), a manufacturer of components for the FJ and Legends race cars and a business man.

The fact that the amount of grease provided in the new bearing is so sparse, in my opinion is... Money, period.

If the bearing manufacture can use 1 gram of grease compared to 2 grams and the bearing lasts for an "acceptable" amount of time, then they have saves hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions over the millions of bearings they produce because they have cut the cost of the grease in half. If the bearing will last 3-5-10 years depending on the use, the consumer really doesn't say much because they know the bearing is a wear item and the wear out.

It is also the same reason all bearing manufactures are making their bearings in China, Taiwan, Mexico, etc to save money in manufacturing which means the company is more profitable; Money, period.

This is where this post went right off the bat in regard to All Balls bearing... "china junk". But, Balky actually found the issue that caused his bearing problems and it was not fault of the bearing.

So, my last question to you Noel; how does Fred packing the bearing full cause any detriment to the bearing itself?

Just like the last time I asked you to support your position, I will post the same words.

Quote from: racerrad8 on October 24, 2019, 06:39:36 PM
I doubt you will respond...

But I will anxiously await the answers to my questions above. The collective of the forum could benefit you our opinion too, even though it is "One man's opinion".

Randy - RPM

Quote from: FJ Flyer on November 05, 2019, 08:16:52 AM

Quote from: racerrad8 on November 04, 2019, 10:36:56 AM


Don't fool yourselves that name brand bearings or those supplied at a bearing house are not made overseas.

Balky, if you got the All Balls from me, let me know and I can talk to my supplier about the issue. If not from me, it might be worth reaching out to the company you bought them from and see if they will work with you.

Randy - RPM

The Timkins I've gotten all said "Made in Japan". FWTW.

All the Koyo's I've gotten have also said "Made in Japan"
Although it's been several years since I've ordered a set.

Like many things, there is a lot of "trust" when buying products where you can't really determine quality.  In those cases many of us will go with name brand products and country of origin is at least a part of that quality question.  Is this infallible? Of course not...if it was the Chevy Vega would have never existed! :crazy:.
In my former job I periodically came across inferior metallic (usually counter fit) items.  Guess where they were from????  It was enough to swear me off trusting them with critical items if at all possible.

So Randy, I'll be able to order my big block Chevy parts from you now?  :biggrin:

Joe

Randy, you forgot "Alignment and race setup of Clown Cars".  :)

Quote from: aviationfred on November 04, 2019, 07:26:35 PM

I was trained by the military as a Helicopter mechanic.

I could really do with you living in the U.K. Fred........someone with another moditis'd FJ to ride with and someone to look after my Schweizer without demolishing my bank account faster than a speeding bullet !!!! :good2:

Quote from: racerrad8 on November 04, 2019, 07:23:29 PM
I'm interested to know where the crack is in relation to the spoke.

Randy - RPM

OK, back on topic. Here are some pics more or less showing the orientation and position of the crack:

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4914_06_11_19_3_46_21.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4914_06_11_19_3_47_41.jpeg)

It could be concluded that the crack is right under the spoke, but spokes don't connect directly to that central part of the hub, i.e. the rest of the wheel connects to that part on the outside perimeters only, as shown (more or less) in the next pictures, but I'm sure you already know that:

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4914_06_11_19_3_47_00.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4914_06_11_19_3_48_20.jpeg)

Position of the crack is not 100% accurately shown on the pics since I can't see it from outside through those small holes.
Might be the force somehow transfers to that part. I don't recall of any strong hit in a pothole or similar. Was it a casting defect from the factory, who knows....

Quote from: Motofun on November 05, 2019, 02:51:20 PM
Like many things, there is a lot of "trust" when buying products where you can't really determine quality.  In those cases many of us will go with name brand products and country of origin is at least a part of that quality question.  Is this infallible? Of course not...if it was the Chevy Vega would have never existed! :crazy:.
In my former job I periodically came across inferior metallic (usually counter fit) items.  Guess where they were from????  It was enough to swear me off trusting them with critical items if at all possible.

Sage advice indeed

Noel

Quote from: racerrad8 on November 05, 2019, 11:22:23 AM

So, my last question to you Noel; how does Fred packing the bearing full cause any detriment to the bearing itself?

Randy - RPM

I really don't like breathing life into these sort of posts but if I don't answer you will no doubt capitalise on my silence and claim some sort of fait accompli, which you already have I guess, at least in terms of getting me to answer.....

The answer to your question (and I am genuinely surprised you asked this) is "churning"

A packed sealed bearing needs to push the grease out of the way as it rotates, constantly, because it has nowhere else to go, this creates resistance and friction which creates heat which leads to oil separation which leads to degradation and drying out of the grease which leads to more friction which leads to..... that is of course if the seal hasn't already been forced out.

The three major sins of bearing lubrication are too much, too little and too late.

Lubricant types and amounts are determined by measuring heat under constant load/ speed/ time comparisons.

However, it was not my opinion you wanted. Any bearing manufacturer or supplier or any industrial maintenance provider will tell you the same thing, without exception! Check it out for yourself.

Here is a typical example of what I'm sure you'll find as long as you keep searching.

"BEARING RELUBRICATION
How often should I grease my bearings, and how much grease do they need?
FOR STARTERS, note that most sealed bearings come pre-greased from the factory with a 25%-35% grease fill. This is all the grease the bearings will ever need, because the relubrication interval (explained below) is longer than the expected life of the bearing.
DON'T JUST GUESS. It can be tempting to give the bearings a pump of grease each day, or to pump until grease comes out from under the seals.  However, this effectively destroys the seal's ability to keep contaminants out of the grease; and too much grease "churns" inside the bearing, generating resistance and leading to rapid heat build-up."

This is from the website of a US bearing supplier.

"Industry" and "formal" are not big words

I did not discredit Fred with the "hang out to dry" comment, it was by anyone's reckoning (and my intention) a hypothetical, nothing to do with Fred personally.

I understand the principal, but to think the manufacturer would compromise their product life by skimping on grease to save money when you consider what that cost would be as a percentage of the total cost of manufacturing and packaging.....words fail me, even small ones.

I know a lot has and much of it on the quiet, but not everything has gone to China, yet!

Congratulations on the credentials and reaching "expert" status' you should be grateful I provide the opportunity to trot them out.

Randy, I am flattered I'm the only person here you feel the need to discredit professionally from time to time.:biggrin:

OK, that's it. I responded, I answered you questions, I provided the data you asked for and where to find it.

Noel

Quote from: ribbert on November 06, 2019, 08:08:13 AM
Randy, I am flattered I'm the only person here you feel the need to discredit professionally from time to time.:biggrin:

Noel

Only from time to time...?!  Shoot, Randy discredits me time and time again...!  Always reminding me just exactly how (UN)professional I am...!

Then add in comments from others such as I am "shiftless" and the wiring while acceptable in concept looks like a "rat's nest" and who can forget Mr. Conlon's "Midget, look at your hair... you forgot to comb it and it looks like the wiring on your FJ..!  

However, when one knows disagreements are not adversarial (not to mention my good nature :rofl:) everyone gets along very well and it's all good for a laugh...

By the way, looking at the pictures of that FJ's transmission, it looks clean as a whistle - gotta wonder what oil is being used.  No doubt it's the correct oil...! (popcorn)

Ride safe.

Screw it I'm installing these on my FJ
(https://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s361/anchondomichael/Bearing%20Buddies_zpsqfj96atf.png) (https://s1048.photobucket.com/user/anchondomichael/media/Bearing%20Buddies_zpsqfj96atf.png.html)

Oh no! over my free limit on photo bucket. What to do.  :wacko3:

Use your words.

Slightly off topic but related to grease zerks. I was employed at John Deere tractor works for five years in a machine shop. We had mills, drills, lathes, and many more machines. These were maintained by their operators and all were run by electric motors. Most had grease zerks on them including the motors. We greased everything EXCEPT the motors which was strictly forbidden. From decades of experience John Deere had learned the motors lasted much longer without greasing the bearings. The reason being there was no way you could remove all the dirt from the top of the zerk and greasing the bearings just added more dirt.

The red grease Randy sells has the best properties of any grease.. The railroad uses the stuff on the bearings of their rail cars. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me.

Quote from: Mike 86 in San Dimas on November 06, 2019, 10:06:53 PM
Screw it I'm installing these on my FJ
(https://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s361/anchondomichael/Bearing%20Buddies_zpsqfj96atf.png) (https://s1048.photobucket.com/user/anchondomichael/media/Bearing%20Buddies_zpsqfj96atf.png.html)

You know Mikey, great minds think alike...

As soon as a read Noel's reply, the first thing that came to my mind was the automatic grease systems used in all kinds of industry this very day which utilize bearings & shafts.

While I have heard the term churning, I never knew it to be a bad thing. I mean, who doesn't love butter.

I guess in the industry they have decided churning isn't all bad as they have designed automatic greasing equipment that completely fills the bearing cavity and have been keeping them filled for more than 100 years. Today there are some very complex units, but at the end of the day, they are over greasing the bearing. https://www.skf.com/group/products/lubrication-solutions/lubrication-systems/single-point-automatic-lubricators/index.html (https://www.skf.com/group/products/lubrication-solutions/lubrication-systems/single-point-automatic-lubricators/index.html)

How are they over greasing you ask...?

Well, no one is taking out the seals and removing grease, but the grease is still being added to the cavity of the bearing. So, the bearing is going to fill up and then start pushing grease from the seals. (just like Fred is doing)

This is also very reminiscent of the old days when there was oil cups above bearings & shafts. https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/03242997 (https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/03242997)
How do you think the steam locomotive engines kept on running? Oil cups and oil cans at every stop. They needed the reservoir to provide constant lubrication between the stops. The difference is, the oil was designed to run through to keep new oil on the bearing/shaft.

I guess, back in the days of old lubricants (tallow/soaps), there was more of an issue of heat and breakdown of the grease. With today's synthetic greases, heat is not longer an issue. Look at the Red Line grease I use and sell, the drop point is 800+ f. (427+ c) The grease does not break down and the churn can actually keep the grease flow in the bearing which exposes more grease to the rollers and races to keep them better lubricated.

Noel, thank you for the words of a "bearing supply house", I was hoping you had some industry insight on why over lubrication is bad. But I will leave it at your word.

But, even that website you quoted is contradictory in regard to bearing lubrication. In one bullet point, "the grease will out last the bearing life", but in another bullet point, they offer a "Calculation formula" to keep your bearings properly lubricated... :unknown:

Fred & Mikey you guys better be careful out there with your over-packed bearings.

Midget, when did you go bald? I have never noticed... :bomb:


Randy - RPM

Back in the OLDEN days when cars has separate hubs and bearings on the front end, we would occasionally "repack" the front wheel bearings.

In doing so, we didn't just coat the bearing with a payer of grease, we PACKED the whole bearing with grease until it was saturated.  I never had a single wheel bearing failure in any of my family's autos in my entire life.  I can't recall anyone who had a wheel bearing failure on a "traditional" hub/bearing setup.

However, my 2002 GMC Yukon XL with SEALED and pre-lubricated wheel-hub assemblies went out in less than 80K miles.  What used to be a relatively quick and inexpensive maintenance job is now a time consuming $300+ job (per side).

When I removed the ABS sensor from the failed hub assembly powered metal drained on.  Not a hint of lubrication just ground up bearings.

Koyo's have arrived. Made in Japan. Now waiting for the rim.

Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on November 07, 2019, 05:25:10 PM...However, my 2002 GMC Yukon XL with SEALED and pre-lubricated wheel-hub assemblies went out in less than 80K miles.... 

And yet, the sealed front wheel bearings on my 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee are original and still smooth, despite having 336,000 miles on them. Go figure...

(I've probably jinxed myself now...)  :sarcastic:
Bill

Quote from: ribbert on November 05, 2019, 06:18:20 AM

Quote from: aviationfred on November 04, 2019, 07:26:35 PM
I have used All Balls Bearings for years and have had them fail, but I never thought about pointing fingers at the bearing manufacturer. Wheel bearings are a consumable item, they take a lot of abuse in often times very adverse conditions.

Not everyone may agree here but this is my take on bearing lubrication;

I was trained by the military as a Helicopter mechanic. Part of our job was to maintain the drive train which contained more than a dozen drive shafts with bearings connecting them. I was trained that when greasing the bearings, to pump enough grease in until you saw old grease beginning to come out of the outer seal. This procedure was held in very high regard, as a bearing failure on a helicopter flying at 10,000 feet can have catastrophic consequences.

To relate this to motorcycle wheel bearings. Regardless of the brand of bearing that I install in my wheels, I do the following.
When I am ready to install new bearings, i use a small pick and remove the dust cover from both sides. You may be surprised at the amount of grease actually there, or lack there of. I use WD-40 and douse the bearings and work the bearings until most of the original grease has been removed. I wipe everything off and then repack the bearings as full as I can. I put one dust seal back in and work the bearing, then add more grease. Enough that when I put the other seal on that grease oozes out as I am installing the seal. Install the bearings in the wheel and you are all set for many miles.
I have used Lucas Marine grade synthetic grease for years and recently began using the Redline synthetic grease that RPM sells.
I also ALWAYS put a thin coating of grease on the entire axle shaft before I install the wheel.


Fred

Fred, I have great respect for your knowledge on bike maintenance and you are probably one of the very few people here who've actually had 'formal' training in this area. I know exactly what you're talking about on the heli's but the sealed-for-life bearings we use on our bikes are a different thing.

Why would these giant manufacturers who literally keep the wheels of industry turning not know how much and of what type and viscosity grease to add to their bearings?  If you took it on yourself to modify a bearing as you describe before fitting it to a plane or heli, they'd hang you out to dry!

Good advice about the greased shaft.

Noel

Somewhat off topic, but a grease question nonetheless...


Gentlemen – Noel specifically:  so, recently having the engine out for a transmission upgrade, grease fittings were installed on the front motor mounts.  I know you addressed the issue of keeping the front mounts in top shape by installing grease fittings some time ago.  There may be others who have done the same, I do not know whom. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7429.msg66580#msg66580 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7429.msg66580#msg66580)

The question are:

In light of the recent discussion of too little vs too much grease, exactly how much grease should be used when the time comes for re-greasing?
And the frequency which you would suggest?  Have you established an approximate mileage recommendation?  Although I do not spend much time splashing through mud puddles, I do ride during the rainy season & your opinion is priceless...

Also, what grease do you deem correct?  While I would be delighted in your opinion, however I hope the Red Line synthetic grease from RPM meets your criteria 'cause if it's good enough for Fred it must be top shelf...!

Finally, although there is a grease groove on the bushing, it has been suggested to jack up the engine just a tad to relieve pressure on the mounts, thus ensuring complete lubrication.  Curious as to how you do it.

Ah yes, inquiring minds would like to know....

:good2:

Quote from: Mike Ramos on November 13, 2019, 02:42:48 PM

Quote from: ribbert on November 05, 2019, 06:18:20 AM

Quote from: aviationfred on November 04, 2019, 07:26:35 PM
I have used All Balls Bearings for years and have had them fail, but I never thought about pointing fingers at the bearing manufacturer. Wheel bearings are a consumable item, they take a lot of abuse in often times very adverse conditions.

Not everyone may agree here but this is my take on bearing lubrication;

I was trained by the military as a Helicopter mechanic. Part of our job was to maintain the drive train which contained more than a dozen drive shafts with bearings connecting them. I was trained that when greasing the bearings, to pump enough grease in until you saw old grease beginning to come out of the outer seal. This procedure was held in very high regard, as a bearing failure on a helicopter flying at 10,000 feet can have catastrophic consequences.

To relate this to motorcycle wheel bearings. Regardless of the brand of bearing that I install in my wheels, I do the following.
When I am ready to install new bearings, i use a small pick and remove the dust cover from both sides. You may be surprised at the amount of grease actually there, or lack there of. I use WD-40 and douse the bearings and work the bearings until most of the original grease has been removed. I wipe everything off and then repack the bearings as full as I can. I put one dust seal back in and work the bearing, then add more grease. Enough that when I put the other seal on that grease oozes out as I am installing the seal. Install the bearings in the wheel and you are all set for many miles.
I have used Lucas Marine grade synthetic grease for years and recently began using the Redline synthetic grease that RPM sells.
I also ALWAYS put a thin coating of grease on the entire axle shaft before I install the wheel.


Fred

Fred, I have great respect for your knowledge on bike maintenance and you are probably one of the very few people here who've actually had 'formal' training in this area. I know exactly what you're talking about on the heli's but the sealed-for-life bearings we use on our bikes are a different thing.

Why would these giant manufacturers who literally keep the wheels of industry turning not know how much and of what type and viscosity grease to add to their bearings?  If you took it on yourself to modify a bearing as you describe before fitting it to a plane or heli, they'd hang you out to dry!

Good advice about the greased shaft.

Noel

Somewhat off topic, but a grease question nonetheless...


Gentlemen – Noel specifically:  so, recently having the engine out for a transmission upgrade, grease fittings were installed on the front motor mounts.  I know you addressed the issue of keeping the front mounts in top shape by installing grease fittings some time ago.  There may be others who have done the same, I do not know whom. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7429.msg66580#msg66580 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7429.msg66580#msg66580)

The question are:

In light of the recent discussion of too little vs too much grease, exactly how much grease should be used when the time comes for re-greasing?
And the frequency which you would suggest?  Have you established an approximate mileage recommendation?  Although I do not spend much time splashing through mud puddles, I do ride during the rainy season & your opinion is priceless...

Also, what grease do you deem correct?  While I would be delighted in your opinion, however I hope the Red Line synthetic grease from RPM meets your criteria 'cause if it's good enough for Fred it must be top shelf...!

Finally, although there is a grease groove on the bushing, it has been suggested to jack up the engine just a tad to relieve pressure on the mounts, thus ensuring complete lubrication.  Curious as to how you do it.

Ah yes, inquiring minds would like to know....

:good2:

I'd be curious as well...  I hope I'm not screwing something up.  I've already done it a few times and used the Nuclear Navy rule for that type of static journal bearing...  "Grease the fuck out of it" or something like that was the technical term.  What we did was pump new grease in until new grease was coming out.  The objective is to flush the crap out so it can't corrode and freeze up the bearing again.  I do it at oil changes and use the Redline grease from RPM. 

Frank

I'd be curious as well...  I hope I'm not screwing something up.  I've already done it a few times and used the Nuclear Navy rule for that type of static journal bearing...  "Grease the fuck out of it" or something like that was the technical term.  What we did was pump new grease in until new grease was coming out.  The objective is to flush the crap out so it can't corrode and freeze up the bearing again.  I do it at oil changes and use the Redline grease from RPM.  

Frank


Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  :biggrin:

Joe

That Redline grease is the best stuff I've ever used on my door hinges.

Ever

Bushings are different than bearings.  1 or 2 pumps are sufficient.  The problem is they require much more frequent attention and cleaning the mess from the extruded grease is a PIA.

Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 13, 2019, 09:14:14 PM
That Redline grease is the best stuff I've ever used on my door hinges.

Ever

+1...  I use that shit on everything, but squeaking doors was an early obsession.  It's also amazing how little it takes and how long it lasts...  forever as near as I can tell.

Frank

Quote from: Tuned forks on November 13, 2019, 07:43:32 PM

Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  :biggrin:

Joe

Not sure what this has to do with bearings...  so skip if that's what you're looking for.

I missed Rickover by just a few months... probably lucky for me.  Every Nuc Officer was required to have an in person interview with Rickover (he personally approved every hire!), but he had just left the Navy and I interviewed with the FNG Watkins.  He apparently did more background research on candidates and in my case didn't ask much...

Many of the guys before me had stories though...  I met one guy that Rickover put in his office closet and apparently forgot about.  They came to get him after hours and told him he was in since R hadn't fired him on the spot.  The guy didn't know why R told him to take his chair into the closet and sit there until told otherwise.  

Met another that witnessed the famous story of Rickover firing one prospective Nuc for salting his food before tasting it at lunch...  He never got a bite before an enraged R told him to leave and explained to the group the dangers of taking irreversible actions without data.  

Rickover designed a somewhat insane program, but he knew that a nuclear power plant incident in a port would likely kill the program.  Knock wood, his program has been free of that kind of public incident since Nautilus proved the damned idea worked 60+ years ago.  It helps that they designed idiot proof power plants too...  right Rick?

Frank

PS - noisy bearings are a problem in a submarine...  the "Grease the ..." was mainly about keeping sound shorts to the hull at a minimum.  A piece of crap in the journal would make it easier to hear whatever was being supported through the hull.

Quote from: Tuned forks on November 13, 2019, 07:43:32 PM


Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  :biggrin:

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships as well.

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: Tuned forks on November 13, 2019, 07:43:32 PM


Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  :biggrin:

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships Targets as well.

Fixed it for ya...

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 11:44:41 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: Tuned forks on November 13, 2019, 07:43:32 PM


Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  :biggrin:

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships Targets as well.

Fixed it for ya...

Yeah, I lobbed that up there on purpose.  :good:

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 11:44:41 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: Tuned forks on November 13, 2019, 07:43:32 PM


Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  :biggrin:

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships Targets as well.

Fixed it for ya...

Yeah, I lobbed that up there on purpose.  :good:

On Targets I thought you mainly greased each other...

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 11:52:55 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 11:44:41 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: Tuned forks on November 13, 2019, 07:43:32 PM


Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  :biggrin:

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships Targets as well.

Fixed it for ya...

Yeah, I lobbed that up there on purpose.  :good:

On Targets I thought you mainly greased each other...

Well, 100 men go down, 50 couples come up...

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 11:52:55 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 11:44:41 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: Tuned forks on November 13, 2019, 07:43:32 PM


Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  :biggrin:

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships Targets as well.

Fixed it for ya...

Yeah, I lobbed that up there on purpose.  :good:

On Targets I thought you mainly greased each other...

I shall NEVER again ask an off topic question about grease....

Just the thought is enough to make one seasick...!!!

:Facepalm:

Quote from: Mike Ramos on November 14, 2019, 12:17:36 PM

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 11:52:55 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 11:44:41 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: Tuned forks on November 13, 2019, 07:43:32 PM


Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  :biggrin:

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships Targets as well.

Fixed it for ya...

Yeah, I lobbed that up there on purpose.  :good:

On Targets I thought you mainly greased each other...

I shall NEVER again ask an off topic question about grease....

Just the thought is enough to make one seasick...!!!

:Facepalm:

I'm sure Ricky will gladly demonstrate his greasing technique next time you bunk together...   :bad:

.....and we were doing so well.... :dash1:

Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 14, 2019, 03:45:33 PM
.....and we were doing so well.... :dash1:

Probably because my Father was career Navy, I'm laughing my ass off.  Great entertainment.  Frank, that target comment was just rich.

Joe

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 01:44:55 PM

Quote from: Mike Ramos on November 14, 2019, 12:17:36 PM

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 11:52:55 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Flynt on November 14, 2019, 11:44:41 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 14, 2019, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: Tuned forks on November 13, 2019, 07:43:32 PM


Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  :biggrin:

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships Targets as well.

Fixed it for ya...

Yeah, I lobbed that up there on purpose.  :good:

On Targets I thought you mainly greased each other...

I shall NEVER again ask an off topic question about grease....

Just the thought is enough to make one seasick...!!!

:Facepalm:

I'm sure Ricky will gladly demonstrate his greasing technique next time you bunk together...   :bad:

Fellas, 

When the '91 Pink Striper was sold, I had hoped the rumors would finally be laid to rest... 

Without a doubt, this thread should be left to peter out ignominiously...

Oh, well...!

Just to get back on topic... I did a google image search for "churning" and this came up... WTF?

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIvERxlVjrMSq1cTvbaYF-I7AuSGT1-aG6mLaE0n4b4-NsoKUgjw&s)

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 16, 2019, 11:52:03 AM
Just to get back on topic... I did a google image search for "churning" and this came up... WTF?

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIvERxlVjrMSq1cTvbaYF-I7AuSGT1-aG6mLaE0n4b4-NsoKUgjw&s)

What's even funnier Rick, if you do a google image search for Randy Raduechel, along with the trophies, race cars, kids etc that come up on the first page is that same photo of me. It's been there for years.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49078107918_1785a2c7b1_c.jpg)

I never realised he was such a fan!

Just remember Rick, a bit of fun is fine but you have to be nice to me now. :biggrin:




And now, believe it or not, there are folks out there who, while remaining amused by all this banter and references to butter, silly burden of proof demands and so on, are still keen for an actual answer. Below is a screen shot of literally the first page that comes up on a google search on the subject.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49078843257_71f2c94fe1_c.jpg)

As I said last week, read any number or articles from as many credible sources as you like for as long as you like and draw you own conclusions.

Please note, I have not offered any opinion here, my own or one on behalf of the industry, merely a suggestion as to how you might best go about making your own mind up.

Noel

Quote from: ribbert on November 17, 2019, 08:03:51 AM

Quote from: ZOA NOM on November 16, 2019, 11:52:03 AM
Just to get back on topic... I did a google image search for "churning" and this came up... WTF?

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIvERxlVjrMSq1cTvbaYF-I7AuSGT1-aG6mLaE0n4b4-NsoKUgjw&s)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49078107918_1785a2c7b1_c.jpg)

I never realised he was such a fan!

I wish I had some control of what Google uses for the photos, but maybe it has something to do with clicks...

I don't think that photo will ever fall off the google machine, it is classic Noel.

Quote from: ribbert on November 17, 2019, 08:03:51 AM
And now, believe it or not, there are folks out there who, while remaining amused by all this banter and references to butter, silly burden of proof demands and so on, are still keen for an actual answer. Below is a screen shot of literally the first page that comes up on a google search on the subject.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49078843257_71f2c94fe1_c.jpg)

As I said last week, read any number or articles from as many credible sources as you like for as long as you like and draw you own conclusions.

Please note, I have not offered any opinion here, my own or one on behalf of the industry, merely a suggestion as to how you might best go about making your own mind up.

Noel

I now understand, we were not actually talking of bearing to bearing comparison. All of the industry material you are referencing has to do with machinery. In fact in the screenshot you provided from Professor Google for which you are offering as "industry" reference has nothing to do with motorcycle wheel bearings.

Did you actually read what you used for "Industry" reference and determine how it relates to motorcycle wheel bearings?

Sure, over-greasing a closed access electric motor bearing, just as the one shown in the photo you presented, will fill the "cavity" and cause churning, resistance & heat.

But in order to fill the cavity of the FJ wheel and have a churning issue, the cavity between the bearing would need to be filled. Since there is not a grease zerk on the wheel bearings to over-grease and fill the cavity to have the churning issue, can you really over-grease a motorcycle wheel bearing?

So, whats the answer since people "are still keen for an actual answer"...?

I was hoping you had something to offer from the motorcycle industry as it relates to motorcycle wheel bearings, but you have chosen to reference the machinery industry that have access to greasing via a grease zerk and can result in churning the expended grease in the closed cavity.

If you go way back in this topic, Fred explains how he packs his bearings full with synthetic grease. He then re-installs the seal and grease is expelled. I don't know for sure, but I bet Fred wipes the expended grease from the outside of the bearing before installing it.

So, Noel is the bearing over-greased?

If so, how did you determine that?
   There will be, minimal to zero grease outside of the bearing. So, the chance of filling the closed cavity of the wheel with excessive grease is not existent. That equals No Churning
If not, I believe we are on the same page in reference to motorcycle wheel bearings and the application of packing grease.

Hopefully in the future, you can offer something from the motorcycle industry and not something you learned from Professor Google that is really not even relevant in a motorcycle wheel bearing.

Randy - RPM

Quote from: racerrad8 on November 17, 2019, 03:24:24 PM

......Fred explains how he packs his bearings full with synthetic grease. He then re-installs the seal and grease is expelled. I don't know for sure, but I bet Fred wipes the expended grease from the outside of the bearing before installing it.


There will be, minimal to zero grease outside of the bearing. So, the chance of filling the closed cavity of the wheel with excessive grease is not existent. That equals No Churning


Randy - RPM

Randy, can you not see you are talking about two different things above, grease trapped in the bearing and grease escaping from it?

:dash1: It's got nothing to do with grease expelled from the bearing into the cavity. The churning happens when you fill the bearing 100% full then install the seals, that means as the bearing rotates it must push the grease out of it's path, constantly, there is nowhere else to displace it. An open bearing will just push it to one side, no problem, in fact that's exactly how you pack them.

You do the readership a disservice suggesting they can't figure out that the principles of operation of a roller bearing for the most part don't change with the application and the screen shot was a guide to those principles and an example of just how easy it is to find relevant information with one click.

The reason most reference material on the net is about industry is because that is where they are in the greatest use, where performance is most critical and where enormous cost is involved.

As for last nights screen shot of the google page, for those that thought it didn't apply to them because their bikes have petrol engines, not electric motors, I have found a motorbike specific item (below) that tells you all you need to know.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49084894982_986f45cf9d_o.jpg)   :biggrin:

This will be the 3rd time I've suggested this, if you just spent 10 mins doing your own research you'd have your answer, we never would have had this conversation and the membership would be better informed.



Fred, by the way, was not offended, he and I have previously had this very discussion and agreed to disagree in a civilised manner, in fact, he was expecting my response when he posted that.  :biggrin:


Noel


                                                                                 "The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress"

Fred you need to take an infrared temperature reading of your wheel bearings after your next ride and see if there is a measureable difference between yours and normal lightly lubricated bearings.Scientific methods are needed to settle this.

I agree with Noel that I can over pack my motorcycle wheel bearings with grease.
I know this from experience.
I never had a failure, but I have had the churned grease blow out the bearing's grease seal.
Lesson learned.

I imagine that the balls inside the bearing aren't pushing their way through the packed grease as much as might be assumed. I believe there is sufficient slippage at the contact point between the inner race and the balls that significant heat from friction isn't a problem at the speed of rotation we're dealing with on a motorcycle hub. The race just slides on by, as it were, while the balls rotate some, but not likely 1:1 with the race.

Quote from: ribbert on November 18, 2019, 09:26:18 AM
As for last nights screen shot of the google page, for those that thought it didn't apply to them because their bikes have petrol engines, not electric motors, I have found a motorbike specific item (below) that tells you all you need to know.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49084894982_986f45cf9d_o.jpg)   :biggrin:


Fred, by the way, was not offended, he and I have previously had this very discussion and agreed to disagree in a civilised manner, in fact, he was expecting my response when he posted that.  :biggrin:

Noel
                                                                                 "The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress"

Well, there you are everyone in FJ land, I must apologize for the disservice I have done to all of you by questioning the virility of the opinion of one man on the forum. As he has so eloquently modified for us with the google machine proof from the interwebs. It must be true, even though it is still from the machinery industry, not a motorcycle industry or wheel bearing industry. (even if he did have to modify it)

Noel, I am not sure how you read so much into everything that I post. At no point did I ever mention anything about Fred or his feelings or if he was offended. But, you have chosen to believe that I was questioning your position based on his feelings. I merely asked if you had any proof from the motorcycle or wheel bearing industry and you do not.

So, for purposes of this discussion and based on your final little quote about victory, I will leave it at this: I am not trying to win, I am a providing a service to the forum members and non-members. If you cannot provide the relevant support of your opinion or that of the "industry" for parrot and are so in touch with then it must be considered solely as your opinion without true industry support.

So, all of you forum readers, do your own investigation of the proper methods to pack "wheel bearings" and please come to your own conclusions. Just as Fred and Noel have agreed to disagree, that is where I will leave it with Noel.


I do not agree with his opinion as he has presented it, if at some point he can produce something of proof, maybe he can change my mind. But for now, please take his advice as his "opinion" and not the best practice for your FJ and its wheel bearings.

Randy - RPM

I will not participate in your little discussion, I will just inform you that I have bought another wheel and finaly put my bike together to hit the road.  :yahoo: