All Balls rear bearings

[TexasDave]

Slightly off topic but related to grease zerks. I was employed at John Deere tractor works for five years in a machine shop. We had mills, drills, lathes, and many more machines. These were maintained by their operators and all were run by electric motors. Most had grease zerks on them including the motors. We greased everything EXCEPT the motors which was strictly forbidden. From decades of experience John Deere had learned the motors lasted much longer without greasing the bearings. The reason being there was no way you could remove all the dirt from the top of the zerk and greasing the bearings just added more dirt.

The red grease Randy sells has the best properties of any grease.. The railroad uses the stuff on the bearings of their rail cars. If it's good enough for them it's good enough for me.

[racerrad8]

Screw it I'm installing these on my FJ

You know Mikey, great minds think alike...

As soon as a read Noel's reply, the first thing that came to my mind was the automatic grease systems used in all kinds of industry this very day which utilize bearings & shafts.

While I have heard the term churning, I never knew it to be a bad thing. I mean, who doesn't love butter.

I guess in the industry they have decided churning isn't all bad as they have designed automatic greasing equipment that completely fills the bearing cavity and have been keeping them filled for more than 100 years. Today there are some very complex units, but at the end of the day, they are over greasing the bearing. https://www.skf.com/group/products/lubrication-solutions/lubrication-systems/single-point-automatic-lubricators/index.html

How are they over greasing you ask...?

Well, no one is taking out the seals and removing grease, but the grease is still being added to the cavity of the bearing. So, the bearing is going to fill up and then start pushing grease from the seals. (just like Fred is doing)

This is also very reminiscent of the old days when there was oil cups above bearings & shafts. https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/03242997
How do you think the steam locomotive engines kept on running? Oil cups and oil cans at every stop. They needed the reservoir to provide constant lubrication between the stops. The difference is, the oil was designed to run through to keep new oil on the bearing/shaft.

I guess, back in the days of old lubricants (tallow/soaps), there was more of an issue of heat and breakdown of the grease. With today's synthetic greases, heat is not longer an issue. Look at the Red Line grease I use and sell, the drop point is 800+ f. (427+ c) The grease does not break down and the churn can actually keep the grease flow in the bearing which exposes more grease to the rollers and races to keep them better lubricated.

Noel, thank you for the words of a "bearing supply house", I was hoping you had some industry insight on why over lubrication is bad. But I will leave it at your word.

But, even that website you quoted is contradictory in regard to bearing lubrication. In one bullet point, "the grease will out last the bearing life", but in another bullet point, they offer a "Calculation formula" to keep your bearings properly lubricated...

Fred & Mikey you guys better be careful out there with your over-packed bearings.

Midget, when did you go bald? I have never noticed...


Randy - RPM

[FJ_Hooligan]

Back in the OLDEN days when cars has separate hubs and bearings on the front end, we would occasionally "repack" the front wheel bearings.

In doing so, we didn't just coat the bearing with a payer of grease, we PACKED the whole bearing with grease until it was saturated.  I never had a single wheel bearing failure in any of my family's autos in my entire life.  I can't recall anyone who had a wheel bearing failure on a "traditional" hub/bearing setup.

However, my 2002 GMC Yukon XL with SEALED and pre-lubricated wheel-hub assemblies went out in less than 80K miles.  What used to be a relatively quick and inexpensive maintenance job is now a time consuming $300+ job (per side).

When I removed the ABS sensor from the failed hub assembly powered metal drained on.  Not a hint of lubrication just ground up bearings.

[balky1]

Koyo's have arrived. Made in Japan. Now waiting for the rim.

[CutterBill]

...However, my 2002 GMC Yukon XL with SEALED and pre-lubricated wheel-hub assemblies went out in less than 80K miles.... 

And yet, the sealed front wheel bearings on my 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee are original and still smooth, despite having 336,000 miles on them. Go figure...

(I've probably jinxed myself now...) 
Bill

[Mike Ramos]

I have used All Balls Bearings for years and have had them fail, but I never thought about pointing fingers at the bearing manufacturer. Wheel bearings are a consumable item, they take a lot of abuse in often times very adverse conditions.

Not everyone may agree here but this is my take on bearing lubrication;

I was trained by the military as a Helicopter mechanic. Part of our job was to maintain the drive train which contained more than a dozen drive shafts with bearings connecting them. I was trained that when greasing the bearings, to pump enough grease in until you saw old grease beginning to come out of the outer seal. This procedure was held in very high regard, as a bearing failure on a helicopter flying at 10,000 feet can have catastrophic consequences.

To relate this to motorcycle wheel bearings. Regardless of the brand of bearing that I install in my wheels, I do the following.
When I am ready to install new bearings, i use a small pick and remove the dust cover from both sides. You may be surprised at the amount of grease actually there, or lack there of. I use WD-40 and douse the bearings and work the bearings until most of the original grease has been removed. I wipe everything off and then repack the bearings as full as I can. I put one dust seal back in and work the bearing, then add more grease. Enough that when I put the other seal on that grease oozes out as I am installing the seal. Install the bearings in the wheel and you are all set for many miles.
I have used Lucas Marine grade synthetic grease for years and recently began using the Redline synthetic grease that RPM sells.
I also ALWAYS put a thin coating of grease on the entire axle shaft before I install the wheel.


Fred

Fred, I have great respect for your knowledge on bike maintenance and you are probably one of the very few people here who've actually had 'formal' training in this area. I know exactly what you're talking about on the heli's but the sealed-for-life bearings we use on our bikes are a different thing.

Why would these giant manufacturers who literally keep the wheels of industry turning not know how much and of what type and viscosity grease to add to their bearings?  If you took it on yourself to modify a bearing as you describe before fitting it to a plane or heli, they'd hang you out to dry!

Good advice about the greased shaft.

Noel

Somewhat off topic, but a grease question nonetheless...


Gentlemen – Noel specifically:  so, recently having the engine out for a transmission upgrade, grease fittings were installed on the front motor mounts.  I know you addressed the issue of keeping the front mounts in top shape by installing grease fittings some time ago.  There may be others who have done the same, I do not know whom. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7429.msg66580#msg66580

The question are:

In light of the recent discussion of too little vs too much grease, exactly how much grease should be used when the time comes for re-greasing?
And the frequency which you would suggest?  Have you established an approximate mileage recommendation?  Although I do not spend much time splashing through mud puddles, I do ride during the rainy season & your opinion is priceless...

Also, what grease do you deem correct?  While I would be delighted in your opinion, however I hope the Red Line synthetic grease from RPM meets your criteria 'cause if it's good enough for Fred it must be top shelf...!

Finally, although there is a grease groove on the bushing, it has been suggested to jack up the engine just a tad to relieve pressure on the mounts, thus ensuring complete lubrication.  Curious as to how you do it.

Ah yes, inquiring minds would like to know....

[Flynt]

I have used All Balls Bearings for years and have had them fail, but I never thought about pointing fingers at the bearing manufacturer. Wheel bearings are a consumable item, they take a lot of abuse in often times very adverse conditions.

Not everyone may agree here but this is my take on bearing lubrication;

I was trained by the military as a Helicopter mechanic. Part of our job was to maintain the drive train which contained more than a dozen drive shafts with bearings connecting them. I was trained that when greasing the bearings, to pump enough grease in until you saw old grease beginning to come out of the outer seal. This procedure was held in very high regard, as a bearing failure on a helicopter flying at 10,000 feet can have catastrophic consequences.

To relate this to motorcycle wheel bearings. Regardless of the brand of bearing that I install in my wheels, I do the following.
When I am ready to install new bearings, i use a small pick and remove the dust cover from both sides. You may be surprised at the amount of grease actually there, or lack there of. I use WD-40 and douse the bearings and work the bearings until most of the original grease has been removed. I wipe everything off and then repack the bearings as full as I can. I put one dust seal back in and work the bearing, then add more grease. Enough that when I put the other seal on that grease oozes out as I am installing the seal. Install the bearings in the wheel and you are all set for many miles.
I have used Lucas Marine grade synthetic grease for years and recently began using the Redline synthetic grease that RPM sells.
I also ALWAYS put a thin coating of grease on the entire axle shaft before I install the wheel.


Fred

Fred, I have great respect for your knowledge on bike maintenance and you are probably one of the very few people here who've actually had 'formal' training in this area. I know exactly what you're talking about on the heli's but the sealed-for-life bearings we use on our bikes are a different thing.

Why would these giant manufacturers who literally keep the wheels of industry turning not know how much and of what type and viscosity grease to add to their bearings?  If you took it on yourself to modify a bearing as you describe before fitting it to a plane or heli, they'd hang you out to dry!

Good advice about the greased shaft.

Noel

Somewhat off topic, but a grease question nonetheless...


Gentlemen – Noel specifically:  so, recently having the engine out for a transmission upgrade, grease fittings were installed on the front motor mounts.  I know you addressed the issue of keeping the front mounts in top shape by installing grease fittings some time ago.  There may be others who have done the same, I do not know whom. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7429.msg66580#msg66580

The question are:

In light of the recent discussion of too little vs too much grease, exactly how much grease should be used when the time comes for re-greasing?
And the frequency which you would suggest?  Have you established an approximate mileage recommendation?  Although I do not spend much time splashing through mud puddles, I do ride during the rainy season & your opinion is priceless...

Also, what grease do you deem correct?  While I would be delighted in your opinion, however I hope the Red Line synthetic grease from RPM meets your criteria 'cause if it's good enough for Fred it must be top shelf...!

Finally, although there is a grease groove on the bushing, it has been suggested to jack up the engine just a tad to relieve pressure on the mounts, thus ensuring complete lubrication.  Curious as to how you do it.

Ah yes, inquiring minds would like to know....

I'd be curious as well...  I hope I'm not screwing something up.  I've already done it a few times and used the Nuclear Navy rule for that type of static journal bearing...  "Grease the fuck out of it" or something like that was the technical term.  What we did was pump new grease in until new grease was coming out.  The objective is to flush the crap out so it can't corrode and freeze up the bearing again.  I do it at oil changes and use the Redline grease from RPM. 

Frank

[Tuned forks]

I'd be curious as well...  I hope I'm not screwing something up.  I've already done it a few times and used the Nuclear Navy rule for that type of static journal bearing...  "Grease the fuck out of it" or something like that was the technical term.  What we did was pump new grease in until new grease was coming out.  The objective is to flush the crap out so it can't corrode and freeze up the bearing again.  I do it at oil changes and use the Redline grease from RPM.  

Frank


Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  

Joe

[Pat Conlon]

That Redline grease is the best stuff I've ever used on my door hinges.

Ever

[Motofun]

Bushings are different than bearings.  1 or 2 pumps are sufficient.  The problem is they require much more frequent attention and cleaning the mess from the extruded grease is a PIA.

[Flynt]

That Redline grease is the best stuff I've ever used on my door hinges.

Ever

+1...  I use that shit on everything, but squeaking doors was an early obsession.  It's also amazing how little it takes and how long it lasts...  forever as near as I can tell.

Frank

[Flynt]

Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  

Joe

Not sure what this has to do with bearings...  so skip if that's what you're looking for.

I missed Rickover by just a few months... probably lucky for me.  Every Nuc Officer was required to have an in person interview with Rickover (he personally approved every hire!), but he had just left the Navy and I interviewed with the FNG Watkins.  He apparently did more background research on candidates and in my case didn't ask much...

Many of the guys before me had stories though...  I met one guy that Rickover put in his office closet and apparently forgot about.  They came to get him after hours and told him he was in since R hadn't fired him on the spot.  The guy didn't know why R told him to take his chair into the closet and sit there until told otherwise.  

Met another that witnessed the famous story of Rickover firing one prospective Nuc for salting his food before tasting it at lunch...  He never got a bite before an enraged R told him to leave and explained to the group the dangers of taking irreversible actions without data.  

Rickover designed a somewhat insane program, but he knew that a nuclear power plant incident in a port would likely kill the program.  Knock wood, his program has been free of that kind of public incident since Nautilus proved the damned idea worked 60+ years ago.  It helps that they designed idiot proof power plants too...  right Rick?

Frank

PS - noisy bearings are a problem in a submarine...  the "Grease the ..." was mainly about keeping sound shorts to the hull at a minimum.  A piece of crap in the journal would make it easier to hear whatever was being supported through the hull.

[ZOA NOM]

Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships as well.

[Flynt]

Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime?  

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships Targets as well.

Fixed it for ya...

[ZOA NOM]

Frank, would that be the Rickover Regime? 

Joe

Gotta be Zumwalt... Frank's older'n dirt.


FWIW, I can confirm the Navy's "grease the fuck out of it" standard on real ships Targets as well.

Fixed it for ya...

Yeah, I lobbed that up there on purpose.