All Balls rear bearings

[FJ Flyer]

Don't fool yourselves that name brand bearings or those supplied at a bearing house are not made overseas.

Balky, if you got the All Balls from me, let me know and I can talk to my supplier about the issue. If not from me, it might be worth reaching out to the company you bought them from and see if they will work with you.

Randy - RPM

The Timkins I've gotten all said "Made in Japan". FWTW.

[FJ Flyer]

I have used All Balls Bearings for years and have had them fail, but I never thought about pointing fingers at the bearing manufacturer. Wheel bearings are a consumable item, they take a lot of abuse in often times very adverse conditions.

Not everyone may agree here but this is my take on bearing lubrication;

I was trained by the military as a Helicopter mechanic. Part of our job was to maintain the drive train which contained more than a dozen drive shafts with bearings connecting them. I was trained that when greasing the bearings, to pump enough grease in until you saw old grease beginning to come out of the outer seal. This procedure was held in very high regard, as a bearing failure on a helicopter flying at 10,000 feet can have catastrophic consequences.

To relate this to motorcycle wheel bearings. Regardless of the brand of bearing that I install in my wheels, I do the following.
When I am ready to install new bearings, i use a small pick and remove the dust cover from both sides. You may be surprised at the amount of grease actually there, or lack there of. I use WD-40 and douse the bearings and work the bearings until most of the original grease has been removed. I wipe everything off and then repack the bearings as full as I can. I put one dust seal back in and work the bearing, then add more grease. Enough that when I put the other seal on that grease oozes out as I am installing the seal. Install the bearings in the wheel and you are all set for many miles.
I have used Lucas Marine grade synthetic grease for years and recently began using the Redline synthetic grease that RPM sells.
I also ALWAYS put a thin coating of grease on the entire axle shaft before I install the wheel.


Fred

Good stuff.  I'm going to try this on my next bearing change (hopefully, no time soon).

[racerrad8]

To relate this to motorcycle wheel bearings. Regardless of the brand of bearing that I install in my wheels, I do the following.

When I am ready to install new bearings, i use a small pick and remove the dust cover from both sides. You may be surprised at the amount of grease actually there, or lack there of. I use WD-40 and douse the bearings and work the bearings until most of the original grease has been removed. I wipe everything off and then repack the bearings as full as I can. I put one dust seal back in and work the bearing, then add more grease. Enough that when I put the other seal on that grease oozes out as I am installing the seal. Install the bearings in the wheel and you are all set for many miles.

I have used Lucas Marine grade synthetic grease for years and recently began using the Redline synthetic grease that RPM sells.

I also ALWAYS put a thin coating of grease on the entire axle shaft before I install the wheel.

Fred

Fred, I have great respect for your knowledge on bike maintenance and you are probably one of the very few people here who've actually had 'formal' training in this area. I know exactly what you're talking about on the heli's but the sealed-for-life bearings we use on our bikes are a different thing.

Why would these giant manufacturers who literally keep the wheels of industry turning not know how much and of what type and viscosity grease to add to their bearings?  If you took it on yourself to modify a bearing as you describe before fitting it to a plane or heli, they'd hang you out to dry!

Good advice about the greased shaft.

Noel

Okay, Noel once again you are using big words like Industry and Formal which you failed to address in the last post that went to the technical side. (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18986.msg192442#msg192442)

So, once again I asked here for any supporting documents or data other than opinion. Do you have any supporting data that contradicts Fred's bearing packing method?

I ask, because I am "formally trained" and maintain my training and I currently work in the "Industry".

Both by operating a FJ based motorcycle shop, a shop that works on and maintains several different types of race cars, I also work on all types of vehicles used for highway travel, plus I maintain my required Automotive of Service Excellence (ASE) certifications as a Master Automotive and Commercial Truck Technician.

I have the full gamut in the shop right now. An FJ on the lift for repairs electrical repairs, a FJ engine torn down for transmission repairs, a race car that is getting the engine rebuilt and a 1967 big block El Camino being retrofitted with fuel injection. (pictures attached)

I have also attached several photos including a photo of my "formal" training certificate and a current letter from ASE documenting my master level of certification.

Now Noel, with my pedigree established as an expert. Please, please, please...

Provide something in the way of fact from the "Industry"... Please.

Not yours or someone else's opinion that the way Fred is packing his bearings is incorrect. You have no issue discrediting Fred's "formal training" by telling him he would be hung out to dry, but again unless you have something from the "Industry" you are still offering only your opinion.

Now, you ask the question; Why would these giant manufacturers who literally keep the wheels of industry turning not know how much and of what type and viscosity grease to add to their bearings?

I'll offer you my opinion as someone that supplies and sells bearings to customers all over the world. I have nothing from the manufacture, so this is my solely my opinion as a formally trained and currently certified mechanic, a parts supplier (including sealed bearings), a manufacturer of components for the FJ and Legends race cars and a business man.

The fact that the amount of grease provided in the new bearing is so sparse, in my opinion is... Money, period.

If the bearing manufacture can use 1 gram of grease compared to 2 grams and the bearing lasts for an "acceptable" amount of time, then they have saves hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions over the millions of bearings they produce because they have cut the cost of the grease in half. If the bearing will last 3-5-10 years depending on the use, the consumer really doesn't say much because they know the bearing is a wear item and the wear out.

It is also the same reason all bearing manufactures are making their bearings in China, Taiwan, Mexico, etc to save money in manufacturing which means the company is more profitable; Money, period.

This is where this post went right off the bat in regard to All Balls bearing... "china junk". But, Balky actually found the issue that caused his bearing problems and it was not fault of the bearing.

So, my last question to you Noel; how does Fred packing the bearing full cause any detriment to the bearing itself?

Just like the last time I asked you to support your position, I will post the same words.

I doubt you will respond...

But I will anxiously await the answers to my questions above. The collective of the forum could benefit you our opinion too, even though it is "One man's opinion".

Randy - RPM

[Pat Conlon]

Don't fool yourselves that name brand bearings or those supplied at a bearing house are not made overseas.

Balky, if you got the All Balls from me, let me know and I can talk to my supplier about the issue. If not from me, it might be worth reaching out to the company you bought them from and see if they will work with you.

Randy - RPM

The Timkins I've gotten all said "Made in Japan". FWTW.

All the Koyo's I've gotten have also said "Made in Japan"
Although it's been several years since I've ordered a set.

[Motofun]

Like many things, there is a lot of "trust" when buying products where you can't really determine quality.  In those cases many of us will go with name brand products and country of origin is at least a part of that quality question.  Is this infallible? Of course not...if it was the Chevy Vega would have never existed! .
In my former job I periodically came across inferior metallic (usually counter fit) items.  Guess where they were from?  It was enough to swear me off trusting them with critical items if at all possible.

[Tuned forks]

So Randy, I'll be able to order my big block Chevy parts from you now? 

Joe

[ZOA NOM]

Randy, you forgot "Alignment and race setup of Clown Cars". 

[Millietant]

I was trained by the military as a Helicopter mechanic.

I could really do with you living in the U.K. Fred........someone with another moditis'd FJ to ride with and someone to look after my Schweizer without demolishing my bank account faster than a speeding bullet !!!!

[balky1]

I'm interested to know where the crack is in relation to the spoke.

Randy - RPM

OK, back on topic. Here are some pics more or less showing the orientation and position of the crack:




It could be concluded that the crack is right under the spoke, but spokes don't connect directly to that central part of the hub, i.e. the rest of the wheel connects to that part on the outside perimeters only, as shown (more or less) in the next pictures, but I'm sure you already know that:




Position of the crack is not 100% accurately shown on the pics since I can't see it from outside through those small holes.
Might be the force somehow transfers to that part. I don't recall of any strong hit in a pothole or similar. Was it a casting defect from the factory, who knows....

[ribbert]

Like many things, there is a lot of "trust" when buying products where you can't really determine quality.  In those cases many of us will go with name brand products and country of origin is at least a part of that quality question.  Is this infallible? Of course not...if it was the Chevy Vega would have never existed! .
In my former job I periodically came across inferior metallic (usually counter fit) items.  Guess where they were from?  It was enough to swear me off trusting them with critical items if at all possible.

Sage advice indeed

Noel

[ribbert]

So, my last question to you Noel; how does Fred packing the bearing full cause any detriment to the bearing itself?

Randy - RPM

I really don't like breathing life into these sort of posts but if I don't answer you will no doubt capitalise on my silence and claim some sort of fait accompli, which you already have I guess, at least in terms of getting me to answer.....

The answer to your question (and I am genuinely surprised you asked this) is "churning"

A packed sealed bearing needs to push the grease out of the way as it rotates, constantly, because it has nowhere else to go, this creates resistance and friction which creates heat which leads to oil separation which leads to degradation and drying out of the grease which leads to more friction which leads to..... that is of course if the seal hasn't already been forced out.

The three major sins of bearing lubrication are too much, too little and too late.

Lubricant types and amounts are determined by measuring heat under constant load/ speed/ time comparisons.

However, it was not my opinion you wanted. Any bearing manufacturer or supplier or any industrial maintenance provider will tell you the same thing, without exception! Check it out for yourself.

Here is a typical example of what I'm sure you'll find as long as you keep searching.

"BEARING RELUBRICATION
How often should I grease my bearings, and how much grease do they need?
FOR STARTERS, note that most sealed bearings come pre-greased from the factory with a 25%-35% grease fill. This is all the grease the bearings will ever need, because the relubrication interval (explained below) is longer than the expected life of the bearing.
DON'T JUST GUESS. It can be tempting to give the bearings a pump of grease each day, or to pump until grease comes out from under the seals.  However, this effectively destroys the seal's ability to keep contaminants out of the grease; and too much grease "churns" inside the bearing, generating resistance and leading to rapid heat build-up."

This is from the website of a US bearing supplier.

"Industry" and "formal" are not big words

I did not discredit Fred with the "hang out to dry" comment, it was by anyone's reckoning (and my intention) a hypothetical, nothing to do with Fred personally.

I understand the principal, but to think the manufacturer would compromise their product life by skimping on grease to save money when you consider what that cost would be as a percentage of the total cost of manufacturing and packaging.....words fail me, even small ones.

I know a lot has and much of it on the quiet, but not everything has gone to China, yet!

Congratulations on the credentials and reaching "expert" status' you should be grateful I provide the opportunity to trot them out.

Randy, I am flattered I'm the only person here you feel the need to discredit professionally from time to time.

OK, that's it. I responded, I answered you questions, I provided the data you asked for and where to find it.

Noel

[Mike Ramos]

Randy, I am flattered I'm the only person here you feel the need to discredit professionally from time to time.

Noel

Only from time to time...?!  Shoot, Randy discredits me time and time again...!  Always reminding me just exactly how (UN)professional I am...!

Then add in comments from others such as I am "shiftless" and the wiring while acceptable in concept looks like a "rat's nest" and who can forget Mr. Conlon's "Midget, look at your hair... you forgot to comb it and it looks like the wiring on your FJ..!  

However, when one knows disagreements are not adversarial (not to mention my good nature ) everyone gets along very well and it's all good for a laugh...

By the way, looking at the pictures of that FJ's transmission, it looks clean as a whistle - gotta wonder what oil is being used.  No doubt it's the correct oil...!

Ride safe.

[Mike 86 in San Dimas]

Screw it I'm installing these on my FJ

[Mike 86 in San Dimas]

Oh no! over my free limit on photo bucket. What to do. 

[Pat Conlon]

Use your words.