so i just put randys clutch friction plates in, and a double spring mod. still not getting full disengagement. at all. the pressure plate moves, but not enough. i think there is still air in the clutch system. the slave isnt leaking, going to pull it off to make sure. going to re bleed the system. the pull at the lever definitely isnt tight enough since there are 2 clutch springs. i might ditch the adjustable lever on the vfr800 interceptor m/c for a non adjustable one to ensure i am getting full clutch pull and full fluid being moved thru m/c. the bike moves with clutch pulled in 1st, but not like it does in neutral. im not sure what i did incorrectly. the clutch pulls easy, so i bet there is air in system. going to bleed more and see if i can get the bike to move easier in neutral. need to rebuild rear brake and m/c because it is not bleeding, nor building pressure. the state of rear caliper is bad, pretty sure it is frozen in the open position. here is a picture of the clutch lever, it is worn. my dad has a vacuum bleeder so i may try that. there arent shims that go between clutch spring and hub correct? i doubt there is. and there is no way that the clutch plates are stuck together since there is new plates. i am at a standstill. ive put so much money and time into the bike, i just need to work out the kinks. thanks for the help guys. ps. i even rode the bike around the block to see if it would unstick the plates, if they are stuck. no change. i need to get the rear brake working so i can slam the rear brake to see if that will free them up.
Cold oil can make the clutch feel like it is dragging. Are you having this issue with the engine warm?
appreciate the quick reply. i warmed the bike up prior to riding around the block. the clutch isnt working at all with the bike on, but when its off i can push the bike with the clutch held in first gear
Its really upsetting me as of now. Im 18 and ive spend so much time and money on this thing... the clutch doesnt work... but the pressure plate is moving. I can only think that the clutch plates are stick together because of the oil film when installed.. i still need to tune the bike.. it runs just not the best. I bet the valves need adjusted soon too..maybe.. ive tried so many things and i cant get the clutch to work. Theres like no air in the clutch system. Im not sure what to do besides get the rear brake to work and try unsticking the plates. Im also having fuel issues im going to end up spending the money to get a non vaccum petcock. Mine is a pos. It just never ends with these bikes...
Would the pressure plate still move if the ball bearing was gone????
.
You may need to bleed the clutch assembly again.
Sometimes it helps to tie the clutch lever pulled solidly against the handgrip with a bungee cord or zip tie, and leave it that way overnight. Work the clutch lever slowly out and in, the next morning, and see if that helps.
The rod from the clutch master cylinder into the clutch lever can wear a hole into the lever, so the hole gets too deep to work the clutch. There may be a bushing in the lever that pushes the clutch rod, which can be worn out in the same way. You can use a dot of RTV to stick a tiny washer (or two) into the bottom of that hole (or bushing) to see if that helps. If so, replace the clutch lever (or bushing) ASAP.
You can get banjo bolts for the hydraulic hoses that have a bleeder screw built into the bolt head. Makes it much easier to bleed the system, with a bleeder at the top of the hose, where it connects to the clutch master cylinder. They make one and two-hose banjo bleeders. They cost from US$8 to US$18 usually, but the wrong shop may want US$45+ for one. A good hydraulic hose shop may have what you need, or buy them on the Internet.
(https://www.partsgiant.com/images/VO091NZEJDFYK46R-product-primary.jpg)
Let's back up a minute..
Randy sells two different clutch packs:
1) The standard Yamaha FJ clutch pack uses six (6) wide discs along with two (2) of the narrow discs at the front & rear of the pack.
2) The RPM upgraded clutch pack: This clutch pack uses 7 OEM wide clutch discs, 1 OEM narrow clutch disc at the front of the pack.. This kit will require the removal of the dampening cushioning spring & back-up plate from the rear of the clutch pack.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3ARPMClutch (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3ARPMClutch)
If you got #2 above, the RPM upgraded clutch pack, and you did not remove the parts in red below, you will have a clutch that will not disengage.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/10/4871_22_02_17_6_56_20.png)
As discussed here: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0)
If you did that, good, then as others have said, you need to bleed your hydraulics.
i am aware of those dampening bushings and i did remove them all. i may end up taking it back apart to be sure though. the slave and m/c do not have air in them. no bubbles come up when bleeding. i know this clutch can work.. 11,705 original miles... inside of motor looks very clean. the bike sat for 20-30 years. my guess is that the ball bearing is either somewhere around my garage or in the oil pan...if everything is installed correctly. i forgot to check for the ball bearing while putting the kit in, it is behind the top hat looking part that pushes the pressure plate correct? also, going back to this question, will the pressure plate move while pulling clutch if the ball bearing is missing?? the clutch disengages just enough to push the bike in gear, but it doesn't do much of anything while the bike is running. another question, the bike is probably due for a valve adjustment. probably on stock shims. will a hotcams valve shim kit work? i already have one, but i dont know if they are the same size shims.
i also made sure my slave wasn't leaking. i will continue bleeding the hydraulics, and it isn't a big deal to take the clutch cover off without draining the oil, but i would like to know if a missing ball bearing could cause this issue. I shot the push rod out twice, so it is very possible that the ball bearing is gone, i just want to know if the push rod will even move the pressure plate without the ball bearing.
The clutch will not disengage at all, if the ball is missing.
A couple of things I have found over the years.
Put the bike on the center stand, you need to leave the handlebars turned all the way to the right overnight.
If the bars are left straight, the line fitting and banjo bolt can be a place holding an air bubble. The fluid will run right under the bubble.
I seem to recall another member who struggled with the vfr master.
And finally, there will be some drag on the clutch pack which will cause the rear wheel to turn. If you get the wheel on the ground, or the rear brake operational does the clutch disengage enough to kill me engine?
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 09, 2018, 12:12:49 AM
I seem to recall another member who struggled with the vfr master.
Randy - RPM
That would be me... I gave up on it and reinstalled my OEM master. I have the left forearm to prove it.
why didnt you have any luck with vfr800 m/c? that is discouraging.. my stock master is missing sight glass. my brake master has a penny and jb weld to replace the sight window:)
thanks guys for the help
good to know the ball bearing is for sure there.
left it with the lever zip tied and the bars all the way to the right.
will end up bleeding tomorrow and possibly cracking the banjo to get the air out of it.
i will keep you guys posted hopefully i can get the slave to push more.
i just ordered a kit for the rear caliper and pads and i already have the kit for the rear m/c.
will get back to you in a few days.
i am hoping this m/c will bleed. its a 14mm, i should have gone with the fjr m/c, i bought the m/c early onto my resto. if anything i can sell on ebay to recoup some money. it sucks, i even rebuilt it.
After determining all of the mechanical components are operating as they should and the system still refuses to build pressure :dash2: :ireful: :dash1:
When all else fails.......
Order a Motion Pro Mighty Vac, or a Cycle Gear, Stockton Vacuum Brake Bleeder kit. Within minutes you will have pressure and a functioning clutch or brake system. :yahoo:
Ask me how I know..... :flag_of_truce:
Fred
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 09, 2018, 12:12:49 AM
......does the clutch disengage enough to kill me engine?
Randy - RPM
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 08, 2018, 11:15:57 PM
The clutch will not disengage at all, if the ball is missing.
Ok guys, you can't both be right. :biggrin:
Quote from: iridewheelies on March 08, 2018, 06:06:52 PM
Its really upsetting me as of now. Im 18 and ive spend so much time and money on this thing... the clutch doesnt work...
Take heart! The clutch is simple and you've got all the good the people on the job, they'll get you there.
Noel
I've also experienced this problem with a FJR clutch master.
After repeated attempts to bleed the system, Randy noticed that the clutch basket was moving when disengaging. Turns out that the clutch basket nut had come loose. He tighten it and problem solved.
I only gave up because I needed the bike for my commute. The problem was bleeding. It can drive you nuts if you don't have patience or time to do it properly and fully.
btw - I shot the ball across the garage too, we all do...
I know the clutch system is a bit different from the brakes, but may try this technique:
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/22-mods-how-tos/283074-brake-bleeding-problems-look-here-fail-proof-bleeding.html (http://www.gixxer.com/forums/22-mods-how-tos/283074-brake-bleeding-problems-look-here-fail-proof-bleeding.html)
Sounds like a good method, but the pics would help. If you have a login on that forum, maybe you could link the pics here for those of us who have no interest in another login to a forum we won't likely use. Thanks for the link.
Except for the extra fluid I use this same method (as above, GSXR) with really good results. Good enough that I have not felt the need to use other methods. Not even a speed bleeder. My rear wheel turns with the bike cold and on the center-stand. Once warm the drag is gone.
Quote from: fj1289 on March 09, 2018, 11:38:43 AM
I know the clutch system is a bit different from the brakes, but may try this technique:
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/22-mods-how-tos/283074-brake-bleeding-problems-look-here-fail-proof-bleeding.html (http://www.gixxer.com/forums/22-mods-how-tos/283074-brake-bleeding-problems-look-here-fail-proof-bleeding.html)
The BALL? Or the Rod (spear the cat)? I don't think anyone has lost the ball this way yet.
Quote from: roortcloud on March 09, 2018, 11:06:28 AM
I've also experienced this problem with a FJR clutch master.
After repeated attempts to bleed the system, Randy noticed that the clutch basket was moving when disengaging. Turns out that the clutch basket nut had come loose. He tighten it and problem solved.
only the middle clutch hub moves while disengaged. the nut looked solid with the lock washer in place.
So I tried deleting the hydraulics again it only got worse the bike will not move it all in gear. I dont have the money to take it to the professionals. It runs OK when cold and it runs like shit or not at all when warm. I can get it tuned once the clutch works. I jetted it and it goes through all rpm in 1st. There isnt much i can do to make the damn thing work all it does is make me upset. My dad is ase certified so i may have him help me...
Where in the world are you? Maybe someone is near you and willing to help.
Check here as well. FJzeemap https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=724879# (https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=724879#)
Did you soak all the plates in oil for 24 hours before installing them?
Has the clutch been a problem since you got it?
Quote from: ZOA NOM on March 09, 2018, 12:01:34 PM
Sounds like a good method, but the pics would help. If you have a login on that forum, maybe you could link the pics here for those of us who have no interest in another login to a forum we won't likely use. Thanks for the link.
I don't have a logon for that site. I'll be putting this to practice soon — I'll take some pics. Biggest thing is to have the bottle well above the bleeder screw. This will keep a column of fluid standing on the bleeder and the air bubbles will rise to the top, so when you release the lever - so it only draws in fluid - no air.
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 09, 2018, 07:02:40 PM
Where in the world are you? Maybe someone is near you and willing to help.
Check here as well. FJzeemap https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=724879# (https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=724879#)
I am located in omaha nebraska and i also do powder coating.
I took the cover off and discovered fuel in the oil. The crankcase smelled of fuel. Time to get a non vacuum petcock. i rebuilt the OE petcock and it still wept through when on. i will have to take the carbs back apart to set the float levels, but i am not sure how to do so. i may bump up the pilot jets but i am not sure since i havent taken the bike out of first. main jets should be good. i forgot what jets i put in, i have them written down somewhere. tuning is further down the road. i must now get the clutch to work fully and figure out my fuel issue.
I bought the bike at auction, with 11,705 original miles, (i hope the odometer works). i had to rebuild every hydraulic and i have never gotten the clutch to work. i have confirmed that there isn't air in the clutch hydraulics. I soaked the plates for 6 hours, and i will soak them overnight while they are apart. I ran the bike for 2-3 minutes today, and the oil level didnt change so i dont think very much fuel got in the crankcase. I am praying the bearings are okay. i noticed again that the pressure plate bearing is notchy, and it was notchy before i installed new plates. will be replacing it for the low price of 10.95 (thanks randy) i also confirmed presence of the ball bearing yet again! its there.
i was losing hope, as it is very discouraging. this is my first resto and i love the hell out of my bike. oh the satisfaction i will get once i work out the kinks and take her for a spin.
also, does the shift detent kit require removal of the entire clutch boss and hub??? might as well spend the money to help the shifts.
i do believe i figured out why the clutch isnt fully disengaging!!! i think that the top hat shaped pusher that buts up against the ball bearing wasn't fully in the bearing on the pressure plate, causing the pressure plate to move some, but not fully.
as of right now I am hoping i didn't hurt any engine bearings guys. it should be okay! note that the notchy pressure plate bearing isn't new. it was notchy before some fuel made its way into the engine. not much fuel got in the engine, there wasn't a change in oil level. but it definitely smelled of fuel in the engine. i hope its okay.. any and all input will be greatly appreciated.
Quote from: roortcloud on March 09, 2018, 11:06:28 AM
I've also experienced this problem with a FJR clutch master.
After repeated attempts to bleed the system, Randy noticed that the clutch basket was moving when disengaging. Turns out that the clutch basket nut had come loose. He tighten it and problem solved.
another quick question i need answered. are you talking about the inner or outer basket? the inner basket/hub will spin with the clutch disengaged. the outer basket does not. im pretty sure the outer basket stays put while disengaged while the inner basket should spin. correct me if i am wrong. thank you
The clutch housing is the outermost & largest part of the clutch. This will need to be removed to install the shift kit.
The movement of the housing was not very much and wasn't a problem with the stock clutch master.
Excuse me. I think I should have described the clutch housing as the inner most part of the assembly. :Facepalm:
Quote from: roortcloud on March 10, 2018, 12:20:56 AM
Excuse me. I think I should have described the clutch housing as the inner most part of the assembly. :Facepalm:
Ron,
Your issue was with the transmission bearing retainer that had come loose. That was allowing the complete input shaft and complete clutch assembly to move.That movement would not allow the clutch to properly release.
Randy - RPM
Slow down, you are mixing up a bunch of issues now with carbs and jetting and shift kits...
Lets get one problem resolved before moving onto the next issue.
I just want to get this nailed down because it says you rode the bike...I think.
So, the clutch will not fully disengage and the bike dies when coming to a stop?
If the clutch is not fully disengaging the bike should die as soon as you drop it into gear.
But, if that was the case, the bike would be un-ridable unless a rolling start was an option.
Looking at the master cylinder you are using, you do need to check the brass pivot bushing for wear as well.
(http://www.rpmracingca.com/prodimages/large/M%20C%20ClutchLeverPivot-1.jpg)
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 10, 2018, 01:53:32 PM
Slow down, you are mixing up a bunch of issues now with carbs and jetting and shift kits...
Lets get one problem resolved before moving onto the next issue.
I just want to get this nailed down because it says you rode the bike...I think.
So, the clutch will not fully disengage and the bike dies when coming to a stop?
If the clutch is not fully disengaging the bike should die as soon as you drop it into gear.
But, if that was the case, the bike would be un-ridable unless a rolling start was an option.
Looking at the master cylinder you are using, you do need to check the brass pivot bushing for wear as well.
(http://www.rpmracingca.com/prodimages/large/M%20C%20ClutchLeverPivot-1.jpg)
Randy - RPM
okay so the inner clutch hub does rotate when the clutch is pulled. i rode the bike from a semi rolling start. the outer hub does not move with clutch pulled. i checked the brass bushing and it didn't appear to be too worn. i can replace it and see if that makes the difference. there is good pressure at the lever. i am not worried about how the bike is running until i can get the clutch to work fully. anyone know where i can get the bushing for a vfr800 lever?
Not knowing what year master cylinder you have. Here is an example for a 2005 VFR800. They are used on a very large selection of Honda's covering 30 years.
https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/22885-MB0-006?ref=4255616ba8c0ec200b351d8b3ea9a0a45231918c (https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/22885-MB0-006?ref=4255616ba8c0ec200b351d8b3ea9a0a45231918c)
Fred
it is a model year 2000 m/c. i will be ordering a bushing, it isnt worn through yet but it could be a few mm shy of full disengagement
One Honda VFR800, year 2000 clutch master cylinder parts list/diagram coming up:
https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/motorcycle/2000/vfr800fi-a-interceptor/clutch-master-cylinder (https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/motorcycle/2000/vfr800fi-a-interceptor/clutch-master-cylinder)
You may wish to bookmark this page in case you ever need a Honda seal kit to rebuild the VFR clutch m/c.
You're welcome.