First, I honestly tried the search tool, and I had no luck.
Moving on -
My FJ1200W's clutch has slipped a bit, and it's time to fix it.
With 47,000 miles, it can't be the stock clutch, but who knows.
1st, I'm considering the Barnett coil conversion (511-90-10001) rather than 2 stock diaphragm springs - pro's/con's one way or another? If Barnett, are the standard springs enough or should I order the HD springs (501-82-06023) as well?
2nd, metal plates - I think I'm going to go ahead and replace all the metal plates with OEM Yamaha pieces. Do I need to order seven 2H7-16325-00-00 or six and one 2H7-16325-00-00??? Wait - Never mind, I did not even check the part numbers, they're the same - Seven it is.
:Facepalm:
3rd, fiber plates, I'm again leaning towards OEM Yamaha, but swear I read somewhere about ditching the insider "thinner" plate (36Y-16331-00-00) and "wire retainer" (2H7-16385-00-00) and replacing it with a full plate (341-16321-13-00) - but leaving one thin one at the front. Do I need one 36Y-16331-00-00 and seven 341-16321-13-00?
And any words of wisdom or links on what I should plan on encountering. It's been several years since I've "done a clutch". Do I need anything else, already have the gasket, maybe a lock washer (90215-25218-00) or do I even have to remove that nut?
Much appreciated in advance,
Steve
Here is everything you need.
RPM Yamaha Clutch Pack (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3ARPMClutch): This is the clutch pack to eliminate the thin inner friction disc, the cushioning spring, wear plate and wire retainer.
I also have a stock Yamaha OEM Clutch Pack (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AClutchPack) for those who want to leave in the dampening spring.
Here are the Yamaha Steel Floater Discs (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AClutchSteel). You will need seven (7)
I also stock the Barnett Pressure Plate Conversion (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3ABarnettPP).
Don't forget the clutch cover gasket (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3AClutchCoverGasket).
And one more thing, while you are in there, a little deeper and you can install the RPM Roller Shift Detent Kit. (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RPMRollerShiftkit)
Everything you need is on the shelf and ready to ship. In fact if you will have it for the weekend if you order it by tomorrow.
For a full write up check out the clutch files: Clutch slipping? Look here. (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0)
Randy - RPM
Great information - Sounds like an inspection is in order to see what is actually needed.
Every good metal plate saves a little gas money
Much appreciated!
Quote from: FJ1200W on February 14, 2017, 08:19:39 PMGreat information - Sounds like an inspection is in order to see what is actually needed. Every good metal plate saves a little gas money Much appreciated!
FJ1200W,
Keep in mind the prices for the entire clutch packs. Replacing single plates only can get you close to or over the price of the entire clutch pack new, sometimes. You should ask about discounts on the prices, as well. The worst they can say is No. 8)
Cheers,
Red
Quote from: FJ1200W on February 14, 2017, 06:48:19 PMWith 47,000 miles, it can't be the stock clutch, but who knows....And any words of wisdom or links on what I should plan on encountering. It's been several years since I've "done a clutch". Do I need anything else, already have the gasket, maybe a lock washer (90215-25218-00) or do I even have to remove that nut?
Much appreciated in advance,
Steve
Mine began slipping after, I think, ~80,000 miles of Atlanta traffic, including a lot of stop and go and a lot of time in carpool lines at elementary and middle schools.
I can't remember if the nut has to come off or not, I think so. It was a pretty easy job, and with the bike on the sidestand I didn't even have to drain the oil, I just pulled the brake pedal and side cover off the RH side. I think it was half an hour, clean hands to clean hands.
Have fun.
I will mention that I thought I had a slipping clutch on my 92'. I replaced all the plates and used two diaphragm springs because I don't mind the tougher lever pull. All the plates coming out appeared to be fine - no glazing, not worn beyond tolerances etc..... the steels were all perfectly flat on glass.
Come to find out I have a TACHOMETER issue where the tach climbs up sometimes a thousand RPMs or so - seemingly at random. I ALWAYS read this needle movement as a slipping clutch. Then the Tach really went bad and it now reads roughly double the actual RPM.
I wont go any further on this thread as to not hijack it (I'll start another) - but be sure your clutch is the culprit before you just jump to rebuilding it. The stock clutch will take a ton of abuse and mileage before new plates and spring are needed.
Cheers!
tim
Quote from: racerrad8 on February 14, 2017, 07:14:23 PM
Here is everything you need.
RPM Yamaha Clutch Pack (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3ARPMClutch): This is the clutch pack to eliminate the thin inner friction disc, the cushioning spring, wear plate and wire retainer.
I also have a stock Yamaha OEM Clutch Pack (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AClutchPack) for those who want to leave in the dampening spring.
Here are the Yamaha Steel Floater Discs (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AClutchSteel). You will need seven (7)
I also stock the Barnett Pressure Plate Conversion (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3ABarnettPP).
Don't forget the clutch cover gasket (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3AClutchCoverGasket).
And one more thing, while you are in there, a little deeper and you can install the RPM Roller Shift Detent Kit. (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RPMRollerShiftkit)
Everything you need is on the shelf and ready to ship. In fact if you will have it for the weekend if you order it by tomorrow.
For a full write up check out the clutch files: Clutch slipping? Look here. (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0)
Randy - RPM
I just placed my order, thank you.
Two orders were placed, on the first I failed to order enough steel plates.
I may of overpaid, if you can ship all together and save on shipping costs, please do.
Many thanks!
Steve
Quote from: axiom-r on February 15, 2017, 02:12:24 PM
I will mention that I thought I had a slipping clutch on my 92'. I replaced all the plates and used two diaphragm springs because I don't mind the tougher lever pull. All the plates coming out appeared to be fine - no glazing, not worn beyond tolerances etc..... the steels were all perfectly flat on glass.
Come to find out I have a TACHOMETER issue where the tach climbs up sometimes a thousand RPMs or so - seemingly at random. I ALWAYS read this needle movement as a slipping clutch. Then the Tach really went bad and it now reads roughly double the actual RPM.
I wont go any further on this thread as to not hijack it (I'll start another) - but be sure your clutch is the culprit before you just jump to rebuilding it. The stock clutch will take a ton of abuse and mileage before new plates and spring are needed.
Cheers!
tim
It's the clutch -
The bikes been to the drag strip "a couple" of times
Thanks for mentioning the tach issue, good info
Yes, the shipping should be cheaper combined than the separate orders.
Robert will take care of it in the morning.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: red on February 15, 2017, 07:29:32 AM
Quote from: FJ1200W on February 14, 2017, 08:19:39 PMGreat information - Sounds like an inspection is in order to see what is actually needed. Every good metal plate saves a little gas money Much appreciated!
FJ1200W,
Keep in mind the prices for the entire clutch packs. Replacing single plates only can get you close to or over the price of the entire clutch pack new, sometimes. You should ask about discounts on the prices, as well. The worst they can say is No. 8)
Cheers,
Red
I don't like asking for a discount, I see value in what Randy brings to the forum.
That being said - fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
I work at a dealership and could of ordered all the parts at "cost plus 10" but, as mentioned, I appreciate what RPM does.
If after reviewing the order I feel like I did not get the value I paid for, I'll use an alternate supply chain next time.
No harm no foul, life goes on.
Quote from: racerrad8 on February 15, 2017, 09:45:38 PM
Yes, the shipping should be cheaper combined than the separate orders.
Robert will take care of it in the morning.
Randy - RPM
Excellent, thank you
Quote from: FJ1200W on February 14, 2017, 06:48:19 PM
.....With 47,000 miles, it can't be the stock clutch...........
I swear, this old chestnut, "FJ's have weak clutches" will out live me.
This snippet of misinformation has been circulating on the forum (and only this forum) forever and has not one iota of evidence to back it up.
So, you got 80,000kms out of the original unit, clutches are a consumeable, just like brake pads and tyres, and 80k just happens to be the most quoted life expectancy of a motorbike clutch. This can vary greatly of course depending on use, abuse, oil choice and oil change frequency but subject to normal operation this is considered to be normal life expectancy.
I have noted with interest over the years every member who has ever asked the question of the forum about a slipping clutch, and told to measure them, has reported back that they are in spec. The steels are undamaged and if they had the means of testing the spring, they would find it has lost an insignificant amount of pressure, not enough to make the clutch slip though.
The clutch relies on two things to transfer drive from the engine to the gearbox, friction and clamping force. So what have we got? The spring has sufficient load and the plates are in spec, that leaves friction.
Fibre plates are porous and operate in engine oil. Over time, crud carried in the oil impregnates the plates, reducing friction.
A new set of fibres has the been the standard fix for slipping wet clutches since Adam was a boy and continues to be the case to this day.
You can fix it two ways, a bandaid fix, increase the spring load with a second spring (or a coil spring conversion) and mask the problem or replace the fibres and fix the problem.
As for the posts "I have the notorious weak OEM clutch problem, it has started slipping at 100k" - Of course it is, it's knackered and needs replacing! .....and it lasted the first 100k, didn't it?
Maybe someone out there with industry experience could offer an opinion.
IMO
Noel
Can we have a talking to yourself emoji? :biggrin:
Just out of interest, those that have fitted 14mm clutch M/C's to lighten he pull, doesn't that make the take up stroke longer?
"I swear, this old chestnut, "FJ's have weak clutches" will out live me.
This snippet of misinformation has been circulating on the forum (and only this forum) forever and has not one iota of evidence to back it up."
I understand this comes fro the use of the FJ as a drag bike. As compared to big Suzuki's of the same era, the FJ clutch is not a durable. For intended use (ie sport touring) I expect it is more than enough.
Jeff
So many variables in the life of a clutch.
In 2003 or 2004 I took my 919 to the local 1/8 mile track on a "test and tune" night, and found the track nearly to myself.
Over 30 passed were made that night, poor bike was abused hard and it never would break the ton in the eighth.
The bike had 24,000 miles on it by then, and I had to replace the clutch very soon after that night.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t317/UJMsRule/Burnout1.jpg)
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t317/UJMsRule/Burnout2.jpg)
That was a fun night......
Diagram used on another forum to explain what stays and what goes -
QuoteRegarding the plate swap -
Removing the items in red (Items #4, #5, #6 & #8) and replacing them with one of the full size blue plate (#9).
The "thin" front plate (highlighted in green, #11, also the same part number are the red one being removed) remains.
(http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q630/goeway2012/Clutch_zps9oc6qvte.png)
Cleaned up the clutch picture a bit.
(http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q630/goeway2012/Clutch%20copy_zpsvbg29vzc.png)
As most of you know, the clutch is a cake walk on these machines.
No real issues at all. Everything came apart easily.
The wire was kind of stuck in pretty well and try as I might, I could not remove it in pristine condition, but it was not going back in anyway.
The fiber plates all looked good and were within spec.
The metals all looked good, a couple had some signs of being overheated but not cooked, for sure.
Magnets pulled the final little spacers out, new plates went in without drama.
Barnett spring conversion, the same.
I had the issue of now being able to easily find the bolt torque for the clutch cover, and I estimated 10 ft/lb so I was on the border of blowing it.
Performance, perfect. Clutch pull might provide slightly more exercise, no complaints here.
Nice to have that slip free performance back.
Thanks for the support everyone
Good job Steve :good2: Question: Can I use your colored diagram over in the clutch files?
If that's ok with you, would you import it over into the gallery?
Cheers
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 21, 2017, 07:28:41 PM
Good job Steve :good2: Question: Can I use your colored diagram over in the clutch files?
If that's ok with you, would you import it over into the gallery?
Cheers
No worries - It's in the gallery now
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=10440 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=10440)
I want remove this narrow clutch plate in my FJ as well...
Because I need only one clutch plate I found this one on eBay: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Yamaha-Clutch-plate-XS650-XS1-XS1100-FJ1200-1300-341-16321-09-/182493932244?hash=item2a7d7c6ad4:g:hQgAAOSwTM5YzRlr (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Yamaha-Clutch-plate-XS650-XS1-XS1100-FJ1200-1300-341-16321-09-/182493932244?hash=item2a7d7c6ad4:g:hQgAAOSwTM5YzRlr)
Part number is different but I manage to find out, that part is recommended for FJ-s as well. Someone can confirm that?
And just in case question: should I drain oil from engine before I start?
In most cases, you can park the bike leaned over on the side stand and remove the clutch cover without dumping oil out.
How old is your oil? Maybe change it while you are in there.
Whatever you do, don't install the new clutch disc dry. Make sure you thoroughly soak it in Motorcycle oil.
Soak it overnight at least, or for a couple days if you have the time to do so.
I would get a new clutch cover gasket.
They sometimes can be reused, but it is a very fragile gasket and is easily damaged.
I swapped last clutch plate today for bigger one. Easy job.
But after change, clutch jerking, when the clutch catches on low rpms..... especially when I take off slowly..... after that all is perfect.....
All clutch elements are in great condition, clutch disc was soaked in oil for 3 days......
Maybe it is normal on beginning?
Quote from: MOTOMYSZOR on May 09, 2017, 03:41:38 PM
I swapped last clutch plate today for bigger one. Easy job.
But after change, clutch jerking, when the clutch catches on low rpms..... especially when I take off slowly..... after that all is perfect.....
All clutch elements are in great condition, clutch disc was soaked in oil for 3 days......
Maybe it is normal on beginning?
Yes , normal with the new disc. ... start off in 2nd gear a few times and it will clear up.
Quote from: MOTOMYSZOR on May 09, 2017, 03:41:38 PM
I swapped last clutch plate today for bigger one. Easy job.
But after change, clutch jerking, when the clutch catches on low rpms..... especially when I take off slowly..... after that all is perfect.....
All clutch elements are in great condition, clutch disc was soaked in oil for 3 days......
Maybe it is normal on beginning?
I also got clutch chatter after removing the anti chatter spring (who would have thought that). 100k later and it's still there and has not diminished at all.
As you say, slightly higher revs while feeding the clutch out overcome it but it's a bit too high for me. I'd rather the chatter than sound like a learner :biggrin:
You get used to it (if yours doesn't go away)
Noel
I changed the narrow friction for the full size and did not notice any chatter issues. I changed the entire clutch so all the frictions and steels were new.
I'd try doubling up the spring... both '84 and '92 have the anti chatter spring out and wider plate in with no chatter at all. I hate chatter, but I did the spring to stop slipping that happened for me with a well tuned stock engine WOT above 6krpm. On Wizard (~160 rwhp), the stock clutch with double spring holds tight. Stronger spring will reduce/stop chatter as well in my experience.
Frank
Make sure you have your idle set above 1k rpm or it will chatter and lug for sure .
I know the FJ has a lot of torque but don't ride it like a diesel and be in 3rd before you are out of the intersection. The engine comes to life at 6k.
Sorry for adding to an older thread, but.... my '93 1200s clutch is not slipping, but I have noticed that the lever action is getting very "soft", clutch still disengages fine, but then the take up when releasing the lever is virtually straight away if you get what I am describing. This believe it or not is still the original clutch pack (up to 138000kms), and I'm thinking maybe the clutch spring plate may be getting a bit tired?
With our rally coming up in May, I might treat the '93 to a new RPM clutch pack with new spring. It certainly feels very different to the original clutch on the '94 which has only done 61000 kms. :good2:
Quote from: X-Ray on February 27, 2021, 07:06:12 PM
Sorry for adding to an older thread, but.... my '93 1200s clutch is not slipping, but I have noticed that the lever action is getting very "soft", clutch still disengages fine, but then the take up when releasing the lever is virtually straight away if you get what I am describing. This believe it or not is still the original clutch pack (up to 138000kms), and I'm thinking maybe the clutch spring plate may be getting a bit tired?
With our rally coming up in May, I might treat the '93 to a new RPM clutch pack with new spring. It certainly feels very different to the original clutch on the '94 which has only done 61000 kms. :good2:
Ray, regardless of what's going on with your clutch (and I'm not silly enough to suggest anything :biggrin: ), the take up point coming closer to the bars is most commonly a lack of fluid, not wear. The hydraulics self-adjust for wear, just like your brake lever doesn't get closer to the bars as the pads wear.
138k is good for a wet clutch, I have 267k having only ever replaced one set of fibres. I bought a new spring a long time ago to conduct some experiments, the last of which saw the original left in the bike, not on purpose, that was just the sequence, so that too is the original.
Clutch slip is progressive, if you reckon it's not slipping now, no reason to think it suddenly will. It's also relevant to load so the higher the gear, the higher the revs, the higher the throttle input, the more likely it is to slip.
Find somewhere you can pull 8-9k rpm at WOT in say 4th gear, if it holds tight there, you good to go. If it doesn't, it's getting tired but could still last years with modest riding.
Noel
Thanks Noel. I have bled the system I thought properly when I put a new seal kit in the slave last year, but the fluid level is right, may still be a touch of air in the system. But definatley no slipping, might just do a full brake and clutch fluid change and recheck the results. :good2:
G'day Ray, I know this suggestion may not be appreciated by everyone (Noel) but try tying your clutch lever back to the bar with a cable tie overnight.
Report back with your findings. Your might get a pleasant surprise. I know it has worked well for me on numerous occasions.
Regards, Pete. :good2:
Quote from: X-Ray on February 28, 2021, 04:27:38 AM
Thanks Noel. I have bled the system I thought properly when I put a new seal kit in the slave last year, but the fluid level is right, may still be a touch of air in the system. But definatley no slipping, might just do a full brake and clutch fluid change and recheck the results. :good2:
Fair enough, as long as you covered the basic stuff first.
Noel
Quote from: oldktmdude on February 28, 2021, 04:43:00 AM
G'day Ray, I know this suggestion may not be appreciated by everyone (Noel) ...
Regards, Pete. :good2:
Haha, I've been beaten into submission, my lips are sealed :lol:
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on February 28, 2021, 05:02:43 AM
Quote from: oldktmdude on February 28, 2021, 04:43:00 AM
G'day Ray, I know this suggestion may not be appreciated by everyone (Noel) ...
Regards, Pete. :good2:
Haha, I've been beaten into submission, my lips are sealed :lol:
Noel
I don't believe that for a second. Hope to catch up soon for a beer and a chat mate. :drinks:
Quote from: oldktmdude on February 28, 2021, 04:43:00 AM
G'day Ray, I know this suggestion may not be appreciated by everyone (Noel) but try tying your clutch lever back to the bar with a cable tie overnight.
Report back with your findings. Your might get a pleasant surprise. I know it has worked well for me on numerous occasions.
Regards, Pete. :good2:
I've used that method many times except I let the bike idle for a few minutes (not long enough to overheat ) with the handle bars positioned to have the master cylinder at its highest point and let the vibration move the air up and out. I replaced my clutch fibers last month . I got suited up for a test ride and found my clutch lever was completely limp. I put it in neutral and let it idle for two minutes with the clutch lever held in and I was on my way with plenty of clutch lever pressure. I often hold my brake and clutch levers in while waiting at stop lights to keep them firm.
Quote from: X-Ray on February 27, 2021, 07:06:12 PM
Sorry for adding to an older thread, but.... my '93 1200s clutch is not slipping, but I have noticed that the lever action is getting very "soft", clutch still disengages fine, but then the take up when releasing the lever is virtually straight away if you get what I am describing. This believe it or not is still the original clutch pack (up to 138000kms), and I'm thinking maybe the clutch spring plate may be getting a bit tired?
With our rally coming up in May, I might treat the '93 to a new RPM clutch pack with new spring. It certainly feels very different to the original clutch on the '94 which has only done 61000 kms. :good2:
Ray, have a good look at the clutch lever and brass pivot bushing. The are notorious for excessive wear and result in your instant engagement from the grip.
See this post from Zwartie a while back:
Worn out clutch...lever (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=15382.0)
Those parts are also in stock and can be include with the new RPM clutch pack.
Randy - RPM
Awesome info, thanks all. Will be removing the lever and checking those components tomorrow.(Especially that brass pivot).
well ok, on my '93 I did forget I have aftermarket alloy levers on it which *may* have something to do with the feel of the clutch. Will put the std lever back on and see if there is any difference, might be as simple as that. :unknown:
My clutch has been slipping for a while but here is my deal. I have the parts to fix it but if I can keep my throttle under restraint for 25 to 30 mins of riding while the J gets hot and then hammer on the throttle there is no slip so now I am just more patient which is hard if you have a need for speed or somebody in your way. I will fix it when it gets beyond this state. I have felt the Blackbird slip as well and just wait a while into my ride before its time to jump to light speed, hit it chewy!!
Quote from: gumby302ho on May 20, 2021, 10:33:46 AM
My clutch has been slipping for a while but here is my deal. I have the parts to fix it but if I can keep my throttle under restraint for 25 to 30 mins of riding while the J gets hot and then hammer on the throttle there is no slip so now I am just more patient which is hard if you have a need for speed or somebody in your way. I will fix it when it gets beyond this state. I have felt the Blackbird slip as well and just wait a while into my ride before its time to jump to light speed, hit it chewy!!
I've never had a bike clutch slip on me in 45 years of riding (with many thousands of track miles). How do you get to wear them like that....presumably more of a drag race addict than me :sarcastic:
(Although I really only use my clutch for pulling away, going between First and Second gears, both ways, or in heavy traffic - rest of the time, clutchless changes are the norm).
My GN400 slips badly when it is cold. That must be a whopping 20 HP or so. I didn't always slip, but started as it aged. It is very hard to get up to 55mph until it warms up. I've replaced the clutch from the low mileage parts bike, but it still slips. Otherwise I've never had clutch slip problems either.
Quote from: Waiex191 on May 20, 2021, 01:48:43 PM
My GN400 slips badly when it is cold. That must be a whopping 20 HP or so. I didn't always slip, but started as it aged. It is very hard to get up to 55mph until it warms up. I've replaced the clutch from the low mileage parts bike, but it still slips. Otherwise I've never had clutch slip problems either.
I've owned a couple of GN400's and found them to be a total blast!
Starting mine was truly a ritual. Cold, I can't remember, choke just right, throttle just right, piston in exactly the right spot, earth and moon in proper alignment, it would start 1st kick. Do anything out of sync, it became a nightmare to start.
Warm or hot, each jard their own routines.
The powerband was delightful, it reminded me of a old big block hot rod.