Hi all!
I'm in the midst of a rebuild, and have just reached the point where I've removed both camshafts from the engine - being careful to support the camshaft chain with a screwdriver "or something" so that it does not fall into the crankcase.
The next step is to remove the pieces the camshaft lobes would push on to move the valves... Manual says to use "a suction cup tool or scribe" to remove each. From my reading, a 'scribe' is a fancy way of saying 'thin piece of metal you can slip around the edges of the piece in question to pry them out' and seems like a fantastic way to scuff up the surface in a really bad way. So I'm not doing that right away.
The suction cup approach raises a different question - how much force is usually needed to remove those pieces, and is it an amount of force that a common (think "Nerf") suction cup can generate?
If not, how would one of you wiser folks go about removing those?
A magnet should work just fine.
Two little notches on the edge of each lifter bucket. the bucket can be rotated in the bore so you can get at them from the best angle.
Slide a small standard screwdriver under there and gently pry upward. The shim will pop loose, exposing the end of the valve stem and keepers.
Steve
As noted above for the shim. I use a small pointed awl / scribe on a stubborn shim at where the notch is if a magnet will not lift it.
On the buckets I used a magnet to lift. I have no idea how you would get a stuck or tight bucket out, not much to grip on to. Someone else might jump in here with more information. I have only had my buckets out once to install valve stem seals.
George
Topic drifting a little bit -
Supposing I've removed those (with a magnet - thanks for the advice) and every bolt and nut securing the head has also come off.
And that I've struck the head with a mallet several times with varying amounts of force, and that the head remains stubbornly stuck in place.
What might you do to remove the cylinder head while keeping it in one piece?
Not off topic for me. As I might be rebuilding my top end this winter I am following your progress. No expert here but there should be 16 attachment points ? Are the nuts off the studs under where the chain casting is on the head, 2 in the front and 2 in the rear ?
I am sure one else that has done this will probably jump in here. Randy at RPM can probably help you also. Randy has all the parts one would need to rebuild or repair that motor.
George
Quoteevery bolt and nut securing the head has also come off.
And that I've struck the head with a mallet several times with varying amounts of force, and that the head remains stubbornly stuck in place.
I'm betting there's one bolt still in place. IIRC, not all bolts enter from the top. Is there one from the bottom up in the front?
Quote from: carey on August 18, 2014, 05:41:47 PM
I'm betting there's one bolt still in place. IIRC, not all bolts enter from the top. Is there one from the bottom up in the front?
Yep, I've got all four though. Two from the front, two from the back, and the eight which are on the top of the head.
...One of those eight
was a really long bolt, though, instead of a nut. But I'm positive there are no more actual attachment points.
Quote from: universalhat on August 18, 2014, 06:01:09 PM
Yep, I've got all four though. Two from the front, two from the back, and the eight which are on the top of the head.
...One of those eight was a really long bolt, though, instead of a nut. But I'm positive there are no more actual attachment points.
Sounds like you pulled a stud out of the case. By my count, there are 12 head nuts.
Probably not much help but here is an 1100 that was under rebuild. Scroll down to the pictures showing the top of the cylinders and the one with the head.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4410.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4410.0) .
Here is another thread to read. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=11511.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=11511.0)
Randy brings up some good points in that last thread or things to look at.
George
As note in the thread withe the 1100 head, look at the two front center studs. One of the UK riders had a similar problem and after he got his head off he said it was because of corrosion at the bottom of the studs in the front. For other similar problems I have used a product called "Blaster" in tests a mixture of mixture of ATF fluid and Acetone has proved to work also. Just throwing out ideas. I don't want you to break fins if unavoidable. Maybe some controlled heat on the head with air heat gun ? Harbor Freight has some cheap ones that would work. Throw enough stuff and something has to stick, or unstick as the case may be.
George
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 18, 2014, 06:34:26 PMBy my count, there are 12 head nuts.
Yeah, by eight I meant twelve. I wasn't by the engine and the parts of same, and misremembered the number.
I have gotten the head unstuck since posting this thread by using "more force for a longer period of time" in the form of a mallet and prying with a thin chunk of wood, but the head is now catching on the last bit of threading on the stud before it can be moved freely. I am confident that with a 2x4 (which will become available tomorrow) I will be able to remove the cylinder head and move along with the rebuild.
First time I've had any engine apart this far... I've been learning a lot at every step.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 18, 2014, 06:34:26 PMSounds like you pulled a stud out of the case.
Is it safe to just put a stud back in according to the torque specifications in the manual? If not, can they be resunk by any means or have I screwed up in a truly serious manner?
PICTURES!!!!!
IWannaSee...
(popcorn)
Steve
Quote from: Steve_in_Florida on August 18, 2014, 11:02:27 PM
PICTURES!!!!!
IWannaSee...
(popcorn)
Steve
I'm on the picture doodad tonight, I swears! I'll pop the heads off with the most gentle application of a 2x4 yet, and then I'll document what's happened so far.
It's becoming more and more clear to me that this whole process might be much more at home in the "project writeups" board... I'll put the updates there, since this has long since ceased to be about the buckets and shims.
(Of course, it will be about them again shortly - but their
removal has been seen to.)
I'm willing to admit that I failed to deliver on the promised picture timeline. :pardon:
Thought I could take something serviceable with my phone, and suffice to say that the pictures are of a quality where a close squint might earn a "yep, that's an engine."
A friend of mine who owns a much more extensive set of tools than I do came by today, and we determined that the cylinders and pistons are well within spec - a new set of piston rings should be about all it takes to get me back on the road, no boring or anything! I've also been told that if honing is all that's required, this is the kind of thing well within reach of anybody who's gotten this far and feels confident in operating an electric drill.
I was, however, told that some scoring I discovered on the camshafts, combined with matching scoring on one camshaft journal, is probably more expensive to repair than it is worth. At some point, something will go wrong, and the head (along with both camshafts) will probably need to be replaced. The cause of this was traced to a bunch of carbonized oil trapped in the channel around one stud. This was also determined to be the source of some worrying solid-looking fragments of shmutz which I found on the engine after lifting the heads (and later, cylinder block) away.
I've cleaned the pistons off with a combination of hot soapy water, detergent, a nylon brush, and a bunch of elbow grease. Two-dimensional black marks remain, but nothing which can be felt unless you're really looking for them. An order has been placed for a gasket set, O-rings, piston rings, and every part I've lost along the way - which amounts at this point to a single wrist pin clip.
Pictures soon. I'd promise, but my promises have a way of not turning out accurate. I'll put myself to shame with their poor quality, but -something- will be up soon.
Okay, I'm trying real hard here. Hopefully these pictures come across OK.
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/763fc189cee515cc44079b9e07733828/tumblr_nas5nbSskh1r2w6fho1_1280.jpg)
The pistons, post cleaning. I started to feel that to remove the last little bit of carbon buildup was going to cause more problems than the carbon itself - so I guess if it really bugs me I can try one of several products meant to go into the engine while it's running, and see if that takes care of the last little bit. In all likelihood, I will ignore those black marks forever.
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/164fc6d173cbb987f9a46f115c269e92/tumblr_nas5nbSskh1r2w6fho2_1280.jpg)
The combustion chambers on the heads - I really wasn't sure what to do about the carbon here. You can see small marks on one valve from where I scraped away the ~2mm thick carbon buildups, but as for the majority of the stuff on there, I just can't seem to make progress with a nylon brush and I'm really nervous about using anything harder on an aluminum surface.
(https://38.media.tumblr.com/53e3f4155771b1cf6c34c56abeb9841a/tumblr_nas5nbSskh1r2w6fho4_1280.jpg)
The crankcase, with every fire-related part removed.
(https://38.media.tumblr.com/56d67796969aa2ca9fa7eeae13b272ac/tumblr_nas5nbSskh1r2w6fho3_1280.jpg)
The crankcase from above, showing a little more clearly that one of these studs has obviously been removed. I'm sorry! I'll put it back!
Additionally, all of this is kept wrapped in plastic. The crankcase is stuffed with rags and has a sheet draped over it. Their protections have been removed for the sake of photography.
While you are this far...at least
1) get a Flex Hone brush and a cordless drill and do your cylinder walls.
http://www.brushresearch.com/product-line.php?line=1 (http://www.brushresearch.com/product-line.php?line=1)
Your new rings will thank you.
2) take your valves out, lap them and then replace the valve seals. RPM has some very nice Vitton seals, better than oem.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 23, 2014, 06:42:22 PM
While you are this far...at least
1) get a Flex Hone brush and a cordless drill and do your cylinder walls.
http://www.brushresearch.com/product-line.php?line=1 (http://www.brushresearch.com/product-line.php?line=1)
Your new rings will thank you.
I've heard to do exactly that - but was told that it's very likely to be possible to rent one from a local parts store and save at least some of the cost. After all, how often will I find myself installing new piston rings?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 23, 2014, 06:42:22 PM
2) take your valves out, lap them and then replace the valve seals. RPM has some very nice Vitton seals, better than oem.
I've thought about it. The only place which would take a "motorcycle engine" sight unseen quoted me about 300 for valve lapping on a 16-valve four-cylinder engine.
Only one valve looks worn. I can get more detailed pictures if you think it'd help make an accurate determination, but I think the valves are OK - except for the camshaft issue.
I'll yield to your advice to an extent, but the feeling I get here is that the cylinder head is going to need to be replaced as a unit at some point in the future - if not the entire engine. This because re-journaling is very expensive. So the question on valve lapping would be is replacing the seals likely to be
necessary before the camshaft journals come into play?
Take some clear sharp pictures (in good lighting) of the damage and post them here.
We will get Randy's opinion.
My hunch is to leave the cam/ journal alone, especially if the damage is in only one area...
Yea, let's look at some pictures.
If you can hone your cylinder walls yourself, you can lap your valves, you just need the right tool.
Quote from: universalhat on August 23, 2014, 04:47:17 PM
........I've also been told that if honing is all that's required, this is the kind of thing well within reach of anybody who's gotten this far and feels confident in operating an electric drill.
Err, successfully honing cylinders is a little more involved than feeling confident operating a power drill.
It is very easy to gloss over "simple" procedures like this . Honing is
not difficult but you
do need to know how to do it.
I can only form a view from what you have posted to date but an engine shop would do this for you for less than the cost of the hones and might be a good idea.
You say "only one valve looks worn" You need to be a little more scientific about it than that. Leaking valves or crook seats are not something determined by a cursory visual inspection.
(http://images.ffx.co.uk/tools/FAIWBS25E.jpg)
This is what I have always used for cleaning up combustion chambers.
Noel
There's a heckuva "...and then a miracle occurred" section here, for which pictures are regrettably few.
A lot of things happened in rapid succession - I honed the cylinders (achieving a 45-degree-or-so crosshatch appearance), had the heads and valves done by proper professionals, installed new rings, put the engine back together, remounted it in the frame, adjusted valve clearances... A lot of stuff. Now reassembly is well underway, hopefully to be completed before Minnesota is covered by its well-worn blanked of snow.
A question for people who've been through this frustration before - I've got the carbs firmly attached to the engine, but the boots between them and the airbox are proving difficult to get fully seated. Right when I thought I had them on correctly, I noticed that each one had a gap at the bottom where the boots had ridden up inside of the carburetor. This is hardly a new problem, but it's always been a frustrating one to resolve - any of you have a clever way to seat the boots and avoid this kind of problem in the future?
Quote from: universalhat on October 15, 2014, 10:37:18 PM
A question for people who've been through this frustration before - I've got the carbs firmly attached to the engine, but the boots between them and the airbox are proving difficult to get fully seated. Right when I thought I had them on correctly, I noticed that each one had a gap at the bottom where the boots had ridden up inside of the carburetor. This is hardly a new problem, but it's always been a frustrating one to resolve - any of you have a clever way to seat the boots and avoid this kind of problem in the future?
Someone may well post a picture, but if you remove the upper two 17mm bolts that hold the rear subframe on (to which the airbox is mounted) you can rotate the subframe down enough to make it easy.
I think on the earlier bikes you might have to undo the muffler brackets as well (where they mount to the subframe) to allow this movement. On the later bikes it's just the two bolts, only takes a second.
Noel
Well, I got all the major parts attached, filled the engine with oil, went for initial startup and noted the following things once the engine caught.
1. Exhaust leaks at the headers immediately became apparent. Either I had not tightened them sufficiently (possible) or they were blown by excess pressure.
2. The headers themselves immediately became extremely hot. Incredibly hot. "Don't get your hand even near them" ferocious radiant heat levels of hot after about ten-to-fifteen seconds of idling.
3. It had taken a long time to start up at all
And finally
4. It ran like absolute garbage.
...With all of this put together, I am inclined to say that my exhaust camshaft is probably slightly advanced from what it should be. I don't know how I made so pigheaded a mistake, but it seems the only possible cause.
Since I am also prone to making mountains out of molehills, and jumping immediately to the worst-case-scenario, is it possible that something else would cause the combination of symptoms described above?
Quote from: universalhat on October 16, 2014, 10:26:07 PM
Well, I got all the major parts attached, filled the engine with oil, went for initial startup and noted the following things once the engine caught.
1. Exhaust leaks at the headers immediately became apparent. Either I had not tightened them sufficiently (possible) or they were blown by excess pressure.
2. The headers themselves immediately became extremely hot. Incredibly hot. "Don't get your hand even near them" ferocious radiant heat levels of hot after about ten-to-fifteen seconds of idling.
3. It had taken a long time to start up at all
And finally
4. It ran like absolute garbage.
...With all of this put together, I am inclined to say that my exhaust camshaft is probably slightly advanced from what it should be. I don't know how I made so pigheaded a mistake, but it seems the only possible cause.
Since I am also prone to making mountains out of molehills, and jumping immediately to the worst-case-scenario, is it possible that something else would cause the combination of symptoms described above?
People often make observations under these circumstances that are simply things they just haven't noticed before.
The exhaust gasses are running at 1000+ deg when they leave the head, this heats the headers up
very quickly. Something you tend not to notice normally.
What makes you think the exhaust cam is not timed correctly? Did you use the marks and then rotate it a couple of times and check it again?
I would think the most likely cause of the header leak was not tightening them rather than being blown out by excess pressure.
The most likely cause of a rebuilt motor taking a while to start is getting fuel to it.
Running like garbage......most likely carbs. I'm curious to know why you think the exhaust cam is the culprit, while it might be out, it's an odd sort of conclusion to jump to without some reason.
Easy enough to check, if that's not it, move onto something else.
Do not make a mountain out of molehill, find it, fix it, ride it.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on October 17, 2014, 08:06:07 AM
Do not make a mountain out of molehill, find it, fix it, ride it.
Noel
Be careful Noel! "Sound advice" like this caused a severe shit-storm here a few weeks ago. :mail1:
Ed
Quote from: simi_ed on October 17, 2014, 09:52:27 AM
Quote from: ribbert on October 17, 2014, 08:06:07 AM
Do not make a mountain out of molehill, find it, fix it, ride it.
Noel
Be careful Noel! "Sound advice" like this caused a severe shit-storm here a few weeks ago. :mail1:
Ed
True, but I don't have Pat's way with words.
Noel
My logic for jumping to "exhaust camshaft" was the above reasons, as well as the fact that the engine didn't have its characteristic sound. I took action without even checking what was posted here (nothing personal) and decided that even though I disliked the prospect of re-opening the engine, it had to be done. Sure enough, the exhaust camshaft was off by about a tooth. Intake looked fine, though - so at least there's that.
With everything buttoned up again, I've let it idle exactly twice. The first time prompted an amazing amount of smoke from every surface on the engine - surprising, but not I guess entirely unexpected. The second, it ran without producing nearly as much smoke. And it seemed to be idling healthily! Woo!
From outside advice I've gotten, I'm going to balance the carbs before heading out on the road, but oh boy oh boy this has almost all come together once again.
That sounds like progress, good work....
WE LIVE
Got the carbs balanced, determined that the clutch was far, far too spongy to actually be effective, and after putting some good ol' DOT3 into the clutch reservoir, it was time for a few rounds of the block, and then out to the great glorious outside world! Took 'er around town a ways, put about twenty miles on before I was summoned back for other responsibilities around the house.
Ye gods, the motorcycle turned into bags of parts and then back into a motorcycle... How'd that even happen?
Tomorrow's plan is to put some thirty more miles on before doing the first of three oil changes I've been advised to perform (the first at 50, to get all the crap I probably dropped into the crankcase out with the filter, the second at 500 to remove the majority of the metal shavings, the last at 1,500 to celebrate having broken the engine in.)
Holy cats!
Quote from: universalhat on October 20, 2014, 08:43:44 PM
Holy cats!
Awesome dude!!! I had about 170 miles today to prevent professional intervention (2 wheel therapy). You pulled it out of a basket and got her running, a true hero..... :drinks:
Quote from: universalhat on August 23, 2014, 05:18:16 PM
Okay, I'm trying real hard here. Hopefully these pictures come across OK.
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/763fc189cee515cc44079b9e07733828/tumblr_nas5nbSskh1r2w6fho1_1280.jpg)
The pistons, post cleaning. I started to feel that to remove the last little bit of carbon buildup was going to cause more problems than the carbon itself - so I guess if it really bugs me I can try one of several products meant to go into the engine while it's running, and see if that takes care of the last little bit. In all likelihood, I will ignore those black marks forever.
Heavy duty oven cleaner works wonders on the carbon buildup on the top of pistons. Here's a shot of "piston 1" clean next to piston 2:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/697_16_09_13_1_31_50.jpeg)
Have at it man! :biggrin:
Quote from: universalhat on October 20, 2014, 08:43:44 PM
Ye gods, the motorcycle turned into bags of parts and then back into a motorcycle... How'd that even happen?
Holy cats!
I love that line.
Well done on the rebuild. No motor is ever as sweet as the one you build yourself.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on October 21, 2014, 05:44:12 AM
No motor is ever as sweet as the one you build yourself.
Noel
You should Copyright your catchphrase. :smile:
Quote from: Capn Ron on October 20, 2014, 11:30:02 PM
Heavy duty oven cleaner works wonders on the carbon buildup on the top of pistons. Here's a shot of "piston 1" clean next to piston 2:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/697_16_09_13_1_31_50.jpeg)
Have at it man! :biggrin:
Woah, that worked...
Way better than what I tried. I scrubbed and scrubbed with nylon bristle brushes, then put 'em in an ultrasonic cleaner with a drop of dish detergent. Seemed to do the job pretty well without pitting 'em noticeably, but after a few days of on-off-on-off the progress seemed to stop, so I called the rest of the debris "probably not harmful."
Next time(!), I'll probably go with oven cleaner. Ain't no chemicals better than chemicals with a big warning reading "if this gets in your eyes or on your skin, even momentarily, it's the very end for you."
Quote from: universalhat on October 22, 2014, 07:03:25 PM
Ain't no chemicals better than chemicals with a big warning reading "if this gets in your eyes or on your skin, even momentarily, it's the very end for you."
Haha, so true, and conversely, any that mentions being friendly to the environment or has "bio" anything somewhere on the label, doesn't work.
Noel.
Funny you say that. I was with another FJ member at the local Cycle Gear store this morning and seen a can of "Biodegradable Chain Lube" and my first passing thought was the same. If it has "Bio" in the name don't touch it, don't look at it, pretend your eyes didn't see it and get as much distance as you can from it :drinks:
George
Quote from: movenon on October 22, 2014, 08:56:22 PM
Funny you say that. I was with another FJ member at the local Cycle Gear store this morning and seen a can of "Biodegradable Chain Lube" and my first passing thought was the same. If it has "Bio" in the name don't touch it, don't look at it, pretend your eyes didn't see it and get as much distance as you can from it :drinks:
George
...Or any lubricant being sold with the word "degradable" attached to it.
Degrading is exactly the
opposite of what I want that to do.