Valve lifter (/bucket) removal

[universalhat]

Okay, I'm trying real hard here.  Hopefully these pictures come across OK.


The pistons, post cleaning.  I started to feel that to remove the last little bit of carbon buildup was going to cause more problems than the carbon itself - so I guess if it really bugs me I can try one of several products meant to go into the engine while it's running, and see if that takes care of the last little bit.  In all likelihood, I will ignore those black marks forever.


The combustion chambers on the heads - I really wasn't sure what to do about the carbon here.  You can see small marks on one valve from where I scraped away the ~2mm thick carbon buildups, but as for the majority of the stuff on there, I just can't seem to make progress with a nylon brush and I'm really nervous about using anything harder on an aluminum surface.


The crankcase, with every fire-related part removed.


The crankcase from above, showing a little more clearly that one of these studs has obviously been removed.  I'm sorry!  I'll put it back!

Additionally, all of this is kept wrapped in plastic.  The crankcase is stuffed with rags and has a sheet draped over it.  Their protections have been removed for the sake of photography.

[Pat Conlon]

While you are this far...at least
1) get a Flex Hone brush and a cordless drill and do your cylinder walls.
http://www.brushresearch.com/product-line.php?line=1
Your new rings will thank you.

2) take your valves out, lap them and then replace the valve seals. RPM has some very nice Vitton seals, better than oem.

[universalhat]

While you are this far...at least
1) get a Flex Hone brush and a cordless drill and do your cylinder walls.
http://www.brushresearch.com/product-line.php?line=1
Your new rings will thank you.

I've heard to do exactly that - but was told that it's very likely to be possible to rent one from a local parts store and save at least some of the cost.  After all, how often will I find myself installing new piston rings?

2) take your valves out, lap them and then replace the valve seals. RPM has some very nice Vitton seals, better than oem.

I've thought about it.  The only place which would take a "motorcycle engine" sight unseen quoted me about 300 for valve lapping on a 16-valve four-cylinder engine.
Only one valve looks worn.  I can get more detailed pictures if you think it'd help make an accurate determination, but I think the valves are OK - except for the camshaft issue.

I'll yield to your advice to an extent, but the feeling I get here is that the cylinder head is going to need to be replaced as a unit at some point in the future - if not the entire engine.  This because re-journaling is very expensive.  So the question on valve lapping would be is replacing the seals likely to be necessary before the camshaft journals come into play?

[Pat Conlon]

 Take some clear sharp pictures (in good lighting) of the damage and post them here.
We will get Randy's opinion.

My hunch is to leave the cam/ journal alone, especially if the damage is in only one area...

Yea, let's look at some pictures.

If you can hone your cylinder walls yourself, you can lap your valves, you just need the right tool.

[ribbert]

  ........I've also been told that if honing is all that's required, this is the kind of thing well within reach of anybody who's gotten this far and feels confident in operating an electric drill.

Err, successfully honing cylinders is a little more involved than feeling confident operating a power drill.
It is very easy to gloss over "simple" procedures like this . Honing is not difficult but you do need to know how to do it.
I can only form a view from what you have posted to date but an engine shop would do this for you for less than the cost of the hones and might be a good idea.

You say "only one valve looks worn" You need to be a little more scientific about it than that. Leaking valves or crook seats are not something determined by a cursory visual inspection.




This is what I have always used for cleaning up combustion chambers.

Noel

[universalhat]

There's a heckuva "...and then a miracle occurred" section here, for which pictures are regrettably few.

A lot of things happened in rapid succession - I honed the cylinders (achieving a 45-degree-or-so crosshatch appearance), had the heads and valves done by proper professionals, installed new rings, put the engine back together, remounted it in the frame, adjusted valve clearances...  A lot of stuff.  Now reassembly is well underway, hopefully to be completed before Minnesota is covered by its well-worn blanked of snow.

A question for people who've been through this frustration before - I've got the carbs firmly attached to the engine, but the boots between them and the airbox are proving difficult to get fully seated.  Right when I thought I had them on correctly, I noticed that each one had a gap at the bottom where the boots had ridden up inside of the carburetor.  This is hardly a new problem, but it's always been a frustrating one to resolve - any of you have a clever way to seat the boots and avoid this kind of problem in the future?

[ribbert]

A question for people who've been through this frustration before - I've got the carbs firmly attached to the engine, but the boots between them and the airbox are proving difficult to get fully seated.  Right when I thought I had them on correctly, I noticed that each one had a gap at the bottom where the boots had ridden up inside of the carburetor.  This is hardly a new problem, but it's always been a frustrating one to resolve - any of you have a clever way to seat the boots and avoid this kind of problem in the future?

Someone may well post a picture, but if you remove the upper two 17mm bolts that hold the rear subframe on (to which the airbox is mounted) you can rotate the subframe down enough to make it easy.
I think on the earlier bikes you might have to undo the muffler brackets as well (where they mount to the subframe) to allow this movement. On the later bikes it's just the two bolts, only takes a second.

Noel

[universalhat]

Well, I got all the major parts attached, filled the engine with oil, went for initial startup and noted the following things once the engine caught.
1. Exhaust leaks at the headers immediately became apparent.  Either I had not tightened them sufficiently (possible) or they were blown by excess pressure.
2. The headers themselves immediately became extremely hot.  Incredibly hot.  "Don't get your hand even near them" ferocious radiant heat levels of hot after about ten-to-fifteen seconds of idling.
3. It had taken a long time to start up at all

And finally

4. It ran like absolute garbage.

...With all of this put together, I am inclined to say that my exhaust camshaft is probably slightly advanced from what it should be.  I don't know how I made so pigheaded a mistake, but it seems the only possible cause.

Since I am also prone to making mountains out of molehills, and jumping immediately to the worst-case-scenario, is it possible that something else would cause the combination of symptoms described above?

[ribbert]

Well, I got all the major parts attached, filled the engine with oil, went for initial startup and noted the following things once the engine caught.
1. Exhaust leaks at the headers immediately became apparent.  Either I had not tightened them sufficiently (possible) or they were blown by excess pressure.
2. The headers themselves immediately became extremely hot.  Incredibly hot.  "Don't get your hand even near them" ferocious radiant heat levels of hot after about ten-to-fifteen seconds of idling.
3. It had taken a long time to start up at all

And finally

4. It ran like absolute garbage.

...With all of this put together, I am inclined to say that my exhaust camshaft is probably slightly advanced from what it should be.  I don't know how I made so pigheaded a mistake, but it seems the only possible cause.

Since I am also prone to making mountains out of molehills, and jumping immediately to the worst-case-scenario, is it possible that something else would cause the combination of symptoms described above?

People often make observations under these circumstances that are simply things they just haven't noticed before.

The exhaust gasses are running at 1000+ deg when they leave the head, this heats the headers up very quickly. Something you tend not to notice normally.
What makes you think the exhaust cam is not timed correctly? Did you use the marks and then rotate it a couple of times and check it again?
I would think the most likely cause of the header leak was not tightening them rather than being blown out by excess pressure.
The most likely cause of a rebuilt motor taking a while to start is getting fuel to it.

Running like garbage......most likely carbs. I'm curious to know why you think the exhaust cam is the culprit, while it might be out, it's an odd sort of conclusion to jump to without some reason.
Easy enough to check, if that's not it, move onto something else.

Do not make a mountain out of molehill, find it, fix it, ride it.

Noel

[simi_ed]

Do not make a mountain out of molehill, find it, fix it, ride it.

Noel

Be careful Noel!  "Sound advice" like this caused a severe shit-storm here a few weeks ago. 


Ed

[ribbert]

Do not make a mountain out of molehill, find it, fix it, ride it.

Noel

Be careful Noel!  "Sound advice" like this caused a severe shit-storm here a few weeks ago. 


Ed

True, but I don't have Pat's way with words.

Noel

[universalhat]

My logic for jumping to "exhaust camshaft" was the above reasons, as well as the fact that the engine didn't have its characteristic sound.  I took action without even checking what was posted here (nothing personal) and decided that even though I disliked the prospect of re-opening the engine, it had to be done.  Sure enough, the exhaust camshaft was off by about a tooth.  Intake looked fine, though - so at least there's that.

With everything buttoned up again, I've let it idle exactly twice.  The first time prompted an amazing amount of smoke from every surface on the engine - surprising, but not I guess entirely unexpected.  The second, it ran without producing nearly as much smoke.  And it seemed to be idling healthily!  Woo!

From outside advice I've gotten, I'm going to balance the carbs before heading out on the road, but oh boy oh boy this has almost all come together once again.

[FJmonkey]

That sounds like progress, good work....

[universalhat]

WE LIVE
Got the carbs balanced, determined that the clutch was far, far too spongy to actually be effective, and after putting some good ol' DOT3 into the clutch reservoir, it was time for a few rounds of the block, and then out to the great glorious outside world!  Took 'er around town a ways, put about twenty miles on before I was summoned back for other responsibilities around the house.

Ye gods, the motorcycle turned into bags of parts and then back into a motorcycle...  How'd that even happen?

Tomorrow's plan is to put some thirty more miles on before doing the first of three oil changes I've been advised to perform (the first at 50, to get all the crap I probably dropped into the crankcase out with the filter, the second at 500 to remove the majority of the metal shavings, the last at 1,500 to celebrate having broken the engine in.)

Holy cats!

[FJmonkey]

Holy cats!

Awesome dude!!! I had about 170 miles today to prevent professional intervention (2 wheel therapy). You pulled it out of a basket and got her running, a true hero.....