Valve lifter (/bucket) removal

[universalhat]

Hi all!
I'm in the midst of a rebuild, and have just reached the point where I've removed both camshafts from the engine - being careful to support the camshaft chain with a screwdriver "or something" so that it does not fall into the crankcase.

The next step is to remove the pieces the camshaft lobes would push on to move the valves...  Manual says to use "a suction cup tool or scribe" to remove each.  From my reading, a 'scribe' is a fancy way of saying 'thin piece of metal you can slip around the edges of the piece in question to pry them out' and seems like a fantastic way to scuff up the surface in a really bad way.  So I'm not doing that right away.

The suction cup approach raises a different question - how much force is usually needed to remove those pieces, and is it an amount of force that a common (think "Nerf") suction cup can generate?

If not, how would one of you wiser folks go about removing those?

[FeralRdr]

A magnet should work just fine.

[Steve_in_Florida]

Two little notches on the edge of each lifter bucket. the bucket can be rotated in the bore so you can get at them from the best angle.

Slide a small standard screwdriver under there and gently pry upward. The shim will pop loose, exposing the end of the valve stem and keepers.

Steve

[movenon]

As noted above for the shim.  I use a small pointed awl / scribe on a stubborn shim at where the notch is if a magnet will not lift it.  

On the buckets I used a magnet to lift.  I have no idea how you would get a stuck or tight bucket out, not much to grip on to. Someone else might jump in here with more information.  I have only had my buckets out once to install valve stem seals.


George

[universalhat]

Topic drifting a little bit -
Supposing I've removed those (with a magnet - thanks for the advice) and every bolt and nut securing the head has also come off.
And that I've struck the head with a mallet several times with varying amounts of force, and that the head remains stubbornly stuck in place.

What might you do to remove the cylinder head while keeping it in one piece?

[movenon]

Not off topic for me.  As I might be rebuilding my top end this winter I am following your progress.  No expert here but there should be 16 attachment points ?  Are the nuts off the studs under where the chain casting is on the head, 2 in the front and 2 in the rear ?
I am sure one else that has done this will probably jump in here.  Randy at RPM can probably help you also.  Randy has all the parts one would need to rebuild or repair that motor. 
George

[carey]

every bolt and nut securing the head has also come off.
And that I've struck the head with a mallet several times with varying amounts of force, and that the head remains stubbornly stuck in place.

I'm betting there's one bolt still in place.  IIRC, not all bolts enter from the top.  Is there one from the bottom up in the front?

[universalhat]

I'm betting there's one bolt still in place.  IIRC, not all bolts enter from the top.  Is there one from the bottom up in the front?

Yep, I've got all four though.  Two from the front, two from the back, and the eight which are on the top of the head.
...One of those eight was a really long bolt, though, instead of a nut.  But I'm positive there are no more actual attachment points.

[FJ_Hooligan]

Yep, I've got all four though.  Two from the front, two from the back, and the eight which are on the top of the head.
...One of those eight was a really long bolt, though, instead of a nut.  But I'm positive there are no more actual attachment points.

Sounds like you pulled a stud out of the case.  By my count, there are 12 head nuts.

[movenon]

Probably not much help but here is an 1100 that was under rebuild. Scroll down to the pictures showing the top of the cylinders and the one with the head.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4410.0 .

Here is another thread to read.  http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=11511.0

Randy brings up some good points in that last thread or things to look at.
George

[movenon]

As note in the thread withe the 1100 head, look at the two front center studs. One of the UK riders had a similar problem and after he got his head off he said it was because of corrosion at the bottom of the studs in the front.  For other similar problems I have used a product called "Blaster" in tests a mixture of mixture of ATF fluid and Acetone has proved to work also. Just throwing out ideas. I don't want you to break fins if unavoidable.  Maybe some controlled heat on the head with air heat gun ?  Harbor Freight has some cheap ones that would work.  Throw enough stuff and something has to stick, or unstick as the case may be.
George

[universalhat]

By my count, there are 12 head nuts.

Yeah, by eight I meant twelve.  I wasn't by the engine and the parts of same, and misremembered the number.

I have gotten the head unstuck since posting this thread by using "more force for a longer period of time" in the form of a mallet and prying with a thin chunk of wood, but the head is now catching on the last bit of threading on the stud before it can be moved freely.  I am confident that with a 2x4 (which will become available tomorrow) I will be able to remove the cylinder head and move along with the rebuild.

First time I've had any engine apart this far...  I've been learning a lot at every step.

Sounds like you pulled a stud out of the case.

Is it safe to just put a stud back in according to the torque specifications in the manual?  If not, can they be resunk by any means or have I screwed up in a truly serious manner?

[Steve_in_Florida]

PICTURES!!!!!

IWannaSee...



Steve

[universalhat]

PICTURES!!!!!

IWannaSee...



Steve

I'm on the picture doodad tonight, I swears!  I'll pop the heads off with the most gentle application of a 2x4 yet, and then I'll document what's happened so far.

It's becoming more and more clear to me that this whole process might be much more at home in the "project writeups" board...  I'll put the updates there, since this has long since ceased to be about the buckets and shims.

(Of course, it will be about them again shortly - but their removal has been seen to.)

[universalhat]

I'm willing to admit that I failed to deliver on the promised picture timeline. 
Thought I could take something serviceable with my phone, and suffice to say that the pictures are of a quality where a close squint might earn a "yep, that's an engine."

A friend of mine who owns a much more extensive set of tools than I do came by today, and we determined that the cylinders and pistons are well within spec - a new set of piston rings should be about all it takes to get me back on the road, no boring or anything!  I've also been told that if honing is all that's required, this is the kind of thing well within reach of anybody who's gotten this far and feels confident in operating an electric drill.

I was, however, told that some scoring I discovered on the camshafts, combined with matching scoring on one camshaft journal, is probably more expensive to repair than it is worth.  At some point, something will go wrong, and the head (along with both camshafts) will probably need to be replaced.  The cause of this was traced to a bunch of carbonized oil trapped in the channel around one stud.  This was also determined to be the source of some worrying solid-looking fragments of shmutz which I found on the engine after lifting the heads (and later, cylinder block) away.

I've cleaned the pistons off with a combination of hot soapy water, detergent, a nylon brush, and a bunch of elbow grease.  Two-dimensional black marks remain, but nothing which can be felt unless you're really looking for them.  An order has been placed for a gasket set, O-rings, piston rings, and every part I've lost along the way - which amounts at this point to a single wrist pin clip.

Pictures soon.  I'd promise, but my promises have a way of not turning out accurate.  I'll put myself to shame with their poor quality, but -something- will be up soon.