G'day
This mostly hypothetical, since putting front end back together, feels good and solid no clicks or oddness forks feel good, except, handling. Turning to the right is easy, to the left is.... Firm?.... Requires a tiny bit more effort than to the right.
Now, I have done all my bolts up, forks are at spec. height and even, seals are good , both lower legs equal, 424 ml in each fork leg,10 weight oil, front tyre is worn RH side, brakes aren't dragging or rough,rear tyre isn't squared off.
Wondering if bent frame or wheel misalignment, has had a highish speed and a low speed accident enough to ding tank ( on each side, just not matching.....). I usually set my rear using to rules,, so I get the rear as even as possible. Going to string line the wheels this weekend to find out more but I would also like any thoughts or input on this from experienced heads. I am allowing for the front tyre to not be assisting in handling at this point, but have ridden the front to worse conditions than this, and normally it just slides more or headshakes, not make it harder to change direction as it is now.
Cheers
Neil
Was it the same before you took it apart?
G'day
Lol no it was worse ! But in other ways, this is a new thing, fixed all the old issues. Only noticed it today on way home. It's not deadly, and being aware I can compensate if I need to but it's not that bad. Just a niggling thing. Just curious, I mean I assuming something has to be out somewhere. In my first post talking about rear wheel, I use 2 rules, not to rules. Damn fat fingers.
Sounds like your rear wheel is misaligned.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 01, 2014, 09:46:29 AM
Sounds like your rear wheel is misaligned.
Or the head bearings are jacked, or the frame is bent, or the forks are twisted, or the swingarm is bent, or the tires are worn oddly, etc.
Continuing on from previous possible suggestions.....
or you have some cables binding on the steering, or the wear on the front tire is combining with the excessive camber on many roads to give you this uneven feel.
G'day
Cheers fellas, all good. I know the bearings are in straight and true, the only cables that rub are the throttle cables but they have always done that. I know my forks are in square and true, the swing arm would "rock" I imagine, I haven't checked that but I did grease my swing arm and linkages a while ago, and apart from some brinelling on swing arm shaft all was pretty good. I will check that and rear wheel again on weekend.
Thanks again.
Neil
G'day Neil, just out of curiosity, what tyre pressures are you running, The reason I ask is because you said your front tyre is worn on the right hand side. I can only put that down to low pressure, and with our camber on the roads wearing that side out, would feel more natural turning right than left.
I check my pressures weekly and have never had a tyre wear more on one side than the other. Also when I adjust my chain, I never use the markings on the swingarm to line my wheel up, I use a tape measure to measure from the big washer on the axle to the end of the swingarm where the adjusting plates are. Assuming the washers are the same size each side, you can't go wrong with alignment.
Tony.
Quote from: Bones on April 02, 2014, 04:40:06 AMI never use the markings on the swingarm to line my wheel up, I use a tape measure to measure from the big washer on the axle to the end of the swingarm where the adjusting plates are. Assuming the washers are the same size each side, you can't go wrong with alignment.
Tony.
Good tip Tony! Thanks
G'day
Yeah cheers tony, I try to run 36/38 psi front/rear I haven't checked them in a bit, I'll buy a pressure gauge tomorrow, at the rear I have been using 6"/12" rules, and measuring from the mark on the plate to the notchs on the arm itself, and as I mentioned its never really done it or I haven't noticed it due to other issues. I reckon your right, I was kind of asking if the singarm markings were good, because the chat over the steering headwork with my father, he mentioned his 750 katana had a steering head or light twist in the frame and the swing arm marks were in accurate. Hopefully tee'd up a ride on Saturday so will get these things checked out before then!
Thanks aga
Damn fat fingers.
Thanks again everyone
Cheers
Neil
Quote from: Bones on April 02, 2014, 04:40:06 AM
I check my pressures weekly and have never had a tyre wear more on one side than the other. Also when I adjust my chain, I never use the markings on the swingarm to line my wheel up, I use a tape measure to measure from the big washer on the axle to the end of the swingarm where the adjusting plates are. Assuming the washers are the same size each side, you can't go wrong with alignment.
Unless the swingarm is twisted or bent.
Save the trouble and make new marks as appropriate. It's a pain to do, but once it's done, it's done.
Quote from: NJona86FJ on April 02, 2014, 06:20:16 AMG'day
Yeah cheers tony, I try to run 36/38 psi front/rear I haven't checked them in a bit, I'll buy a pressure gauge tomorrow, at the rear I have been using 6"/12" rules, and measuring from the mark on the plate to the notchs on the arm itself, and as I mentioned its never really done it or I haven't noticed it due to other issues. I reckon your right, I was kind of asking if the singarm markings were good, because the chat over the steering headwork with my father, he mentioned his 750 katana had a steering head or light twist in the frame and the swing arm marks were in accurate. Hopefully tee'd up a ride on Saturday so will get these things checked out before then!
Thanks aga
Neil,
I would not trust swingarm lengths, or marks on swingarms. Get two lengths of conduit (or other rigid, straight poles), as long as the bike. Put the bike up on the centerstand, on a flat, level slab. Hook a bungee cord through the rear wheel to one pole, around the other pole, and back. The rear ends of the poles should be behind the bike. The bungee cord can pass through the wheel as many times as needed, to use the full length of the bungee cord, with each end of the bungee cord hooked to a pole. The bungee cord only needs to be tight enough to support the poles at the rear wheel; you do not want or need to crush the tire, there. The poles should be set below, and as close as possible to the rear hub, without touching any other part of the bike. Adjust the rear axle position for the correct chain tension, while having the front wheel centered between the poles at the front.
If the front wheel is centered between the poles, then the rear axle alignment is correct. I think you will find that the swingarm marks are not entirely accurate, and should not be used.
Cheers,
Red
Neil,
Have you set the static sag on your FJ? When I setup my 89 to have 30mm of static sag in the front and 25mm of static sag in the rear, it was both more stable and lighter handling.
Ride Well,
Jon
chain alignment tool from Motion pro is around $10, makes alignment dead nuts and simple.
Quote from: red on April 02, 2014, 08:36:17 AM
Neil,
I would not trust swingarm lengths, or marks on swingarms. Get two lengths of conduit (or other rigid, straight poles), as long as the bike. Put the bike up on the centerstand, on a flat, level slab. Hook a bungee cord through the rear wheel to one pole, around the other pole, and back. The rear ends of the poles should be behind the bike. The bungee cord can pass through the wheel as many times as needed, to use the full length of the bungee cord, with each end of the bungee cord hooked to a pole. The bungee cord only needs to be tight enough to support the poles at the rear wheel; you do not want or need to crush the tire, there. The poles should be set below, and as close as possible to the rear hub, without touching any other part of the bike. Adjust the rear axle position for the correct chain tension, while having the front wheel centered between the poles at the front.
If the front wheel is centered between the poles, then the rear axle alignment is correct. I think you will find that the swingarm marks are not entirely accurate, and should not be used.
Cheers,
Red
That's excellent Red. You might want to mention how you tell when the front wheel is centred. It's not always obvious if you haven't done it before.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on April 02, 2014, 09:15:26 AMQuote from: red on April 02, 2014, 08:36:17 AM
Neil,
If the front wheel is centered between the poles, then the rear axle alignment is correct. I think you will find that the swingarm marks are not entirely accurate, and should not be used.
Cheers,
Red
That's excellent Red. You might want to mention how you tell when the front wheel is centred. It's not always obvious if you haven't done it before.
Noel
Noel,
Not sure what you are asking, there. The front wheel should be
steered to point straight at the rear wheel. You can use vision or sight lines (just as the poles are used) to be sure each side of the front tire "sees" as much of the rear tire as the other side. If the front ends of the poles drag on the ground, just lift the front ends of the poles a small distance, drop them and let them bounce to a relaxed resting spot (repeat as needed, and once more, after you think you are done). The front tire is usually narrower than the rear, so just measure the gap between lowest part of the front tire and the side of the pole there, on each side of the front tire. If each side of the front tire is, for example, 3/8 inch or one cm from the pole on that side, then the tire is centered between the poles.
Did that answer your question?
P.S. When the rear wheel aligns properly with the front wheel, check that the chain sprockets are also in alignment. If a sprocket alignment tool says that the rear sprocket does not point at the front sprocket, or the front sprocket does not point at the rear sprocket, that is a separate (and maybe serious) problem. You may need maintenance on the swingarm pivots, or you may have a bent frame, or an axle spacer is not the right thickness.
Not sure how technically accurate this is but I watch how the rear sprocket meshes with the chain to gauge alignment. I also look to make sure the chain is running in the middle of the sprocket teeth and not off to one side or the other.
G'day
Wow thanks guys. Heaps of tips, I like it, I don't have conduit so am going to do the same principle but with string, ( that's what I meant by string lining it). I will do these things you all suggest, and let you know the outcome. Then it's on to the Subaru with blown heads. Yay.
Cheers again
Neil.
Quote from: red on April 02, 2014, 10:16:18 AM
Quote from: ribbert on April 02, 2014, 09:15:26 AMQuote from: red on April 02, 2014, 08:36:17 AM
Neil,
If the front wheel is centered between the poles, then the rear axle alignment is correct. I think you will find that the swingarm marks are not entirely accurate, and should not be used.
Cheers,
Red
That's excellent Red. You might want to mention how you tell when the front wheel is centred. It's not always obvious if you haven't done it before.
Noel
Noel,
Not sure what you are asking, there.
What I was referring to was this measurement.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o216/blacklake/3stringmethoddiagram.jpg)
... and I agree with you, chain alignment is not wheel alignment.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on April 02, 2014, 10:41:21 PMQuote from: ribbert on April 02, 2014, 10:41:21 PMNoel,
Not sure what you are asking, there.
What I was referring to was this measurement.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o216/blacklake/3stringmethoddiagram.jpg)
... and I agree with you, chain alignment is not wheel alignment.
Noel
Noel,
Sorry, man, but there is no possible adjustment of the rear wheel that will bring your "Out of Alignment" drawing to a good end. As I said,
first you must steer the front wheel, to get it pointed straight at the rear wheel. Then, you would have two equal measurements on the right side for the front wheel, and two equal measurements for the left side of the front wheel. These left and right measurements will not be equal, left-to-right, for the case shown in your drawing. Then, the rear wheel can be aligned, to fix the problem.
The adjustment mentioned in the drawing
may be sufficient, then, but more likely, the left side will require tightening, as well as the right side needing loosening. When the rear wheel is aligned properly, the drive chain tension must also be correct.
I think the four measurements shown on the front wheel drawing are needlessly complicated. If you measure from the low point of the front wheel sidewall to the (stringline/ sightline/ ) conduit (as I said), then you will only need two measurements, a left and a right. Any minor steering error at the front wheel may become inconsequential, and may even be disregarded. When these two measurements are equal, left-to-right, the rear wheel is correctly aligned.
Since there is some slop in the fitment of the banjo bolts on the rear axle, here is the best way to get everything set right, reliably: Loosen the rear axle nut, and loosen the banjo adjusting nuts by at least several turns. Move the rear wheel forward in the frame, so there is some slack in the chain. Tighten the rear axle nut just barely snug, but not to torque specs. Steer the front wheel, to be pointed straight at the rear wheel. Tighten the adjusting nut on one banjo bolt, to bring the rear wheel into the correct alignment. When the rear wheel is aligned correctly, then tighten the adjusting nut on each banjo bolt, half a turn. Repeat this step as needed, until the drive chain has the correct tension, and the rear wheel is properly aligned with the front wheel. To tighten the axle nut, push the wrench forward (toward the front of the bike) only. Pulling the wrench rearward can change the rear wheel alignment. Tighten the axle nut to the correct torque specs, and install the cotter key (split-pin). Bend one end of the cotter key over the axle, to retain the cotter key. On each of the banjo bolts, hold the adjusting nut steady with one wrench, and tighten the locking nut against the adjusting nut firmly, to the correct torque. Re-check the wheel alignment, when everything is torqued to specs.
Further discussion is welcome here.
Cheers,
Red
To keep the axle snugged up to the adjustment bolts while tightening the axle nut, I put a piece of wood between the chain and rear sprocket and roll the tire to clamp it there. This provides a forward force on the wheel/axle to keep it pulled into the adjustment bolts.
Quote from: red on April 03, 2014, 09:54:57 AM
Sorry, man, but there is no possible adjustment of the rear wheel that will bring your "Out of Alignment" drawing to a good end.
Red
Red, you've lost me, but then, it is early morning. :morning1:
The diagram (not mine) was simply to demonstrate the outcome you want, equal measurements at the four points shown with conduits fixed to back wheel as you suggested. That's it.
I didn't really even look at the "out of alignment" picture, but now that I have, I don't see a problem with it anyway.
I agree, string is imprecise but that just happened to be on the diagram I lifted and was irrelevant to the point I was making.
The mechanics of how you make the adjustments is another thing and not one I wished to comment on.
Also you might want to try one of these next time (pushed in from the front) instead of the split pin, they're quick and a lot neater, re usable and require no tools.
(http://www.motorlook.nl/contents/media/r_clips.jpg)
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on April 03, 2014, 06:48:36 PM
Quote from: red on April 03, 2014, 09:54:57 AMSorry, man, but there is no possible adjustment of the rear wheel that will bring your "Out of Alignment" drawing to a good end.
Red
Red, you've lost me, but then, it is early morning. :morning1:
The diagram (not mine) was simply to demonstrate the outcome you want, equal measurements at the four points shown with conduits fixed to back wheel as you suggested. That's it.
Also you might want to try one of these next time (pushed in from the front) instead of the split pin, they're quick and a lot neater, re usable and require no tools.
Noel
Noel,
Okay, no worries, mate. :yes: As long as the end result is good, that's all that matters, here. That R-clip in the USA is called a cinch pin (as in, "It's a cinch" or easy). Unfortunately, my neighborhood is totally overrun with kidlets, and I'd worry that one of them might want to have a "souvenir" from the swift FJ. I use cinch pins to secure my trailer hitch clevis pin, when towing the trailer. They do the job well.
Cheers,
Red
Defective tire.