FJowners.com

Saw this for sale, anybody know these bikes? This is a 1998, purchased new in 2001. True mint condition, 9.8k miles, one owner. $4350, stock, new Pilots. May be a nice ride while I get my '85 FJ ready for the summer. Price seems high, any guidance. Thanks in advance, Rick.

I can't speak directly to that bike...in regards to it's riding position as a match to you and/or what you're looking for.  A quick search reveals it as a Honda CBR 1100...maybe with some extra bits like full mid and lower fairings?  Wow...I'm convinced it's a quality ride...every Honda I've been on or owned has been nothing short of precise.  At 16 years old...even with low mileage, it does seem high, but Hondas typically hold high value.

Cap'n Ron. . .

1998 was the last year for carburetors. I would get a '99 or later edition.

Funny, I'd have said go for it because of the carbs :)  

Riding position is a little more aggressive than the FJ if memory serves, and they are so smooth as to make the speed nearly boring.  Suspension has no real adjustments, and there isn't a huge amount of aftermarket support if you want more power.  Really heavy too.  Pretty much a push against a ZX11, but more comfortable if you're under 6'.

Still think it's one of the best looking bikes ever made.  Sounds a bit on the high side for price to me, if only because there's only two kinds.  The kind that was destroyed pretty much the first week, and the ones that suffered from wife`n kids syndrome or scared the crap out of the owners, and ended up with few miles in any case.

Ron:  It'd be a CBR1100XX, should have full fairings as stock.  It replaced the CBR1000F, and briefly took the top speed honors from the ZX11 until the GSX1300R came out.

Early carb models had more power than the later efi models. 164 hp - 91 lb ft torque down to 152 hp. Either way, more than enough.

I can't advise if the bike is good value, but I can say they are great bikes.

Not as comfy as an FJ but can be made a lot better with the addition od late model (43mm) VFR bars.

The suspension can be modified cheaply and with a small mod to the top of the rear shock to lift the ride height they handle better than a big barge should.

But if you are already riding an FJ that's hardly going to be a problem!

Below 4 they don't have as much as an FJ, above 5 the FJ will have trouble figuring out which way the 'Bird went.

The motor is so smooth and refined some say it's a little dull. I find 130 mph in fourth and still pulling hard anything but.

I'm on my second one and reckon you either fall in love with them or not, so maybe you should ride it.   

Don't know much about them either, but that they were faster than hell.  Here's some in Minnesota if you are comparing prices etc...

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/mcy/4320395725.html (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/mcy/4320395725.html)

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/mcy/4268252494.html (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/mcy/4268252494.html)

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/mcy/4285156382.html (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/mcy/4285156382.html)

The only thing I didn't like about them was the linked brake system. I believe it was Two Brothers that was developing a kit (back in the day) to separate the front/back systems but nothing ever came of it. A very solid bike....typical Honda.

I had the Hurricane CBR1000F that the Blackbird replaced.  It was sewing machine smooth, and well put together.  the F was a bit peaky, the power was farther up in the rev range than it was on the FJ -not 600 peaky, but noticeably more so than the FJ.  It was too heavy and long to be particularity flick-able.  It seemed to be made for long, fast 90+mph 4th gear sweepers, that was where that bike really felt at home. It was less comfortable when the corners got tighter.   It did super-slab distance as well as the FJ would, and would be my preference between the two bikes if I were going very long distances -mostly due to that smoothness and plush, if not aggressive suspension.

As was said, you need to ride one.  You'll likely either love it or not.

Dan

Thanks to all for your input, as usual the exhaustive lexicon of bike related experience is truly remarkable. To that end perhaps a fun exercise, on yet another snowy day here on the other coast, would be to start a post that is capable of stumping this genetically superior talent pool. Please note that I said talent pool not cesspool.

Rules of this challenge will be as follows:

1) Cannot use any search engines, dictionaries or research materials of any kind, including spouses and especially kids, because they will cheat to get the answer. This is the toughest caveat and takes a true FJ Gentleman with FJ sized balls. Please take a silent oath at this time, or do not participate. WE WILL KNOW IF YOU CHEAT, specially those in Canada.

2) Must be something that everyone of our geriatric age would have some knowledge of, or experience with, in the normal course of every day life. To clarify, this means that anyone who rides with a cherry bomb between his or her legs, is automatically disqualified. You know too much about everything anyhow. Also any of you assholes with a background in quantum physics, sit tight in your basement labs.

3) Prizes will be awarded to winners by RPM Racing, haven't talked to Randy about this yet, but I'm sure he'll be OK with it. You pick ONE item out of his exhaustive lexicon of parts and it will be sent out to you as soon as the proper due diligence is completed by the judging panel. They will make sure that the above mentioned rules are followed to a tee. Judges will remain anonymous so that there will no undue influence brought to bear on these poor, over-burdened  souls.

4) Finally, the cheater who figures out the definition or meaning of the word, phrase, or quantum physics bullshit will be responsible for posting the next challenge. Anyone found cheating will be eliminated from the challenge and sent to Canada.


.

Hint: Any member of an age that has eaten a hamburger at the counter of an FW Woolworth should know the answer to this question and will not need to cheat.

I had to look it up, funny word.

Monkey, I'm afraid the judges will be in touch with you.

Quote from: RD56 on February 25, 2014, 12:54:57 PM
Monkey, I'm afraid the judges will be in touch with you.

Yea, I new I was out as soon I read the word. No shame in being honest.  :flag_of_truce:

Here we go again....
Monkey's looking to get spanked! :diablo:

Quote from: Dan Filetti on February 25, 2014, 08:49:41 AM
I had the Hurricane CBR1000F that the Blackbird replaced.  It was sewing machine smooth, and well put together.  the F was a bit peaky, the power was farther up in the rev range than it was on the FJ -not 600 peaky, but noticeably more so than the FJ.  It was too heavy and long to be particularity flick-able.  It seemed to be made for long, fast 90+mph 4th gear sweepers, that was where that bike really felt at home. It was less comfortable when the corners got tighter.   It did super-slab distance as well as the FJ would, and would be my preference between the two bikes if I were going very long distances -mostly due to that smoothness and plush, if not aggressive suspension.

I actually had an 87 CBR1000, before the F suffix I think.  That makes me think though, one of the major issues with that engine was the characteristic of eating camchains sometime past 30k.  Did the XX have that improved/fixed in the transition, or was it a ground-up new motor?

I miss the character of that motor.  It was jetted poorly in part (now I know, years later...).  Under 3k rpm it spat and spluttered, 3-6k was reasonably smooth and usably powerful, between 6-7k there was a big flat spot that was deadly smooth, and very painful to your liscence if you held those revs while cruising.. and once the needle hit 7k, it was going to be time to shift by the time you could react.  Saddled with a ridiculous tiny 140mm rear tire (Dunlop K591 maybe?), I distinctly remember dropping a few gears to pass a minivan once, snapping the gas open, and blowing the tire away while travelling 80mph, with the back jumping sideways about a foot so that I was pointed at the minivan's rear wheel.  Scary stuff, but loveable.


___________________-

I had to cheat.  Interesting word.  And possibly the biggest non-sequitur the forum's seen in awhile :)

Let's see, there's a British motorcycle mag I subscribe to, Classic Motorcycle Mechanics, that focuses on '70s & '80 stuff. They mostly do Japanese with some European. Their cut-off is anything over twenty years old. They just did a nice little review of the Blackbird a couple of months ago, and they quite liked it. It should be available on the web, or current issues at Barnes & Noble.

Or you can troll through the Yew Emm Gee (UMG) site.

http://yewemmgee.blogspot.com/ (http://yewemmgee.blogspot.com/)

Makes for some comical reading, splashed with a bit of good information.  Makes me wish I had a good 'breakers' near where I lived that specialized in motorcycles...

Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 24, 2014, 11:02:56 PM
1998 was the last year for carburetors. I would get a '99 or later edition.

Sorry, Pat, I can´t agree with you. The carbed models have more power, more torque and spend less fuel

Its important to buy a model with the OE cans: the weight actuate like a vibration damper and with aftermarket cans the bike vibrate a lot

I've got a 2000 CBR1100XX and it's the quickest and fastest motorcycle I've ever owned. It literally leaves the FJ for dead.

That being said, apples and oranges in comparison.

Brilliant motorcycles - both of them

(http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q630/goeway2012/Motohorseman/CIMG0560_zps7e474010.jpg)

Quote from: Alf on February 26, 2014, 02:46:11 PM

Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 24, 2014, 11:02:56 PM
1998 was the last year for carburetors. I would get a '99 or later edition.

Sorry, Pat, I can´t agree with you. The carbed models have more power, more torque and spend less fuel...

You would agree as soon as you see what's involved in pulling the carbs for cleaning. Our FJ's are easy.

Alf, I can't comment on the EU, but stateside, things WILL NOT GET better for carbureted bikes when the EPA bumps up the min. ethanol content to 15% (E10 to E15)

The Blackbird's are great bikes, but given the chance to buy a bike, any bike (fill in the blank:_______) with carbs  vs. the same bike with fuel injection.... the choice is obvious.

At least to me.... :flag_of_truce:

Quote from: motohorseman on February 27, 2014, 12:37:54 PM
It literally leaves the FJ for dead.

Yes... in straight line. Sorry, but compared with a basic modded FJ (rims & brakes) is like an oil tanker on tight roads. The only big bike (we´re speaking about big cc. sport touring models) that I´ve tested  on my island roads that leave the FJ for dead is the Hayabusa. What a bike!

Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 27, 2014, 01:05:34 PM

You would agree as soon as you see what's involved in pulling the carbs for cleaning. Our FJ's are easy.

Alf, I can't comment on the EU, but stateside, things WILL NOT GET better for carbureted bikes when the EPA bumps up the min. ethanol content to 15% (E10 to E15)

The Blackbird's are great bikes, but given the chance to buy a bike, any bike (fill in the blank:_______) with carbs  vs. the same bike with fuel injection.... the choice is obvious.

At least to me.... :flag_of_truce:

I prefer carbs. Well, no. I prefer my FJ  :biggrin:

Quote from: Alf on February 28, 2014, 02:58:07 AM

Quote from: motohorseman on February 27, 2014, 12:37:54 PM
It literally leaves the FJ for dead.

Yes... in straight line. Sorry, but compared with a basic modded FJ (rims & brakes) is like an oil tanker on tight roads. The only big bike (we´re speaking about big cc. sport touring models) that I´ve tested  on my island roads that leave the FJ for dead is the Hayabusa. What a bike!

You got that right. :yes: :biggrin:

Quote from: JMR on February 28, 2014, 08:10:09 AM

You got that right. :yes: :biggrin:

Well, I´m in love with my FJ but I´m not blind

And thinking... even my friend Mingo 1TX with only a different brake master leave a CBR XX for dead here in Tenerife

ZARF.. ZARF..hmm..Sounds suspiciously like a VURP. Could you use it in a sentence, please? Oh, and don't mind me, I'm just going to be using the computer over here to, uh, uh, check my uh, email and stuff...

I'm sure what to make of you Alf, your comment about the OEM cans is insightful but comparing an FJs handling favourably to a 'Bird? Sorry can't agree.

An FJ with good suspension and the 17" conversion on the rear is a very nice beast to ride and a better tourer than the 'Bird but it's not even close in the handling dept. Maybe if it was the modified FJ against a 'Bird with saggy stock suspenders, but with the two bikes in good condition the Bird turns better, handles fast changes of direction better and is better under braking and unexpected line changes into corners.

I like how the FJ holds a stable line wherever you put it, that's very reassuring on fast corners, but that's one of only two places I can see it has an edge. The other is on gravel roads, where the raked out geometry, long wheelbase and separated brakes make the FJ a better bet.

I realise this is a subjective thing but I guess I think of me aboard and 'Bird and me on an my FJ on my favourite piece of road, the Oxley Highway going from Port Maquarie to Walcha in New South Wales. For the non aussies among you it's got everything in the way of corners. Fast, slow, bumpy, smooth, up hill, downhill and fast off camber corners over crests. On that bit of road the me riding the FJ wouldn't know which way the me riding the Bird went.

Some comments on linked brakes. Like anything in moto land, anything that is remotely different attracts it's fair share of uninformed opinion and fear. Here's where linked brakes are a nuisance: (very) slow manoeuvres and braking on loose gravelly downhills. It's harder to utilise the back brake for stabillity in the very slow corners and on loose gravel it's better to be able to separate your braking input. That's it. The rest of the time you hardly know the brakes are linked. So if you do a lot of precision slow speed riding or a lot of gravel roads, maybe it's a problem. I do hundreds of miles on unmade roads every year. At first I worried about the linked brakes, now I hardly ever think of them except for the situations above. 

Good evening rusjel,

Interesting comments re: the Blackbird vs the FJ 1200.

Compared to modern sports bikes, perhaps an R-1 or the CBR et al, how does the Blackbird perform, not so much the power but as it pertains to handling?

How would it perform against the Hayabusa, again as it pertains to handling?

Thank you,

Mike Ramos.

Quote from: Mike Ramos on March 01, 2014, 12:07:16 AM
Compared to modern sports bikes, perhaps an R-1 or the CBR et al, how does the Blackbird perform, not so much the power but as it pertains to handling?

How would it perform against the Hayabusa, again as it pertains to handling?

Somebody's looking for a new toy?  If you want to ride circles around these things in the tight stuff, try a supermoto style bike.  My Hypermotard 1100 is MUCH less powerful than anything you list, even a stock FJ.  But it is so easy to turn fast and so confidence inspiring, I'm routinely leaving the sport bike guys dragging their knees trying to figure out what just happened.  When the straights allow they will blow right on by... but hard to beat a supermoto for tight corners and quick direction changes.

Frank

Rusjel: the Blackbird is ultra-smooth, comfortable and for really fast sport touring is a marvellous piece of kit, but for hard sport riding is like a whale. With the FJ you could take a chance even in a closed track with modern machinery. With the Blackbird not. I´m 2 sgs faster with an MV Augusta in the Los Arcos closed track in Navarra that with a friend FJ (only rims & brakes), and 3 sgs faster with a GSXR 750 K5 but 2 sgs faster with my FJ that with a Blackbird in Las Palmas closed track. It is a super-big and weighted imposing bike with no like for agressive sport riding

Yes, Its perfect for ride all day long even with luggage. And I disagree with you again: its a better solo sport touring that the FJ... apart for that brakes: you can´t rear slide the bike to situate the bike in tight curves, so slow the rhythm is the only solution

And maybe I´m slower with the MV for the more exigent rider ergonomics. But I reckon that the MV have the potential to be the best of the lot

The Hayabusa is in another planet: its like riding a comfortable 600 cc in tight roads, more flickable than my FJ, but without necessity of going more than 5000 rpm and all the time in the same gear. And in a closed track is more composed, more confident and more stable than a R1, only a little more weighted. For the medium rider with only occasional incursions in a closed track it could be faster. The Hayabusa is a camouflaged racer bike. The Blackbird is a camouflaged touring motorbike. 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree Alf. Chasing sports bikes on a tight road course with stock suspenders on the FJ? Hmmmm... I'm a reasonably handy rider but I couldn't stay with moderately well ridden litre sportsbikes at Wanneroo Raceway in Western Australia a few years ago. On a stock FJ I just ran out of clearance, dragging the frame rails while the sportsbike guys had room to move. Also the weight transfer on the FJ made staying with them on rapid changes of direction that much harder. Sure I could round up guys that didn't know what they were doing but the good guys could get away. For mine, the 'Bird is a lot easier to do that sort of stuff on than an FJ!

At Phillip Island which has more fast corners and no chicanes or 'S' bends the FJ is closer because of the good high speed handling, but again a rider of equal ability on a 'Bird would see one off. Sportsbike guys of equal ability are further up the road again. I was only 5 secs faster around PI on my Daytona than the FJ on a fast flowing track like PI, where the lap time done by a good guy on street tires is in the mid 1:50s. ON the much tighter and shorter Wanneroo where the lap time is about a minute the difference is about the same. Which shows up the deficiencies of bad weight transfer, overall weight and clearance. Every flip flop corner or change of direction under brakes the FJ suffers. More than a 'Bird.  

You can still back a Blackbird into a corner (but granted not as easily or effectively), just use only the front lever and you only get one piston on the back brake. On a bike that size that's not the fastest way in all but the slowest corners anyway. It might be that you are a faster rider than I am and just like the cut of the FJ's jib, but physics, and geometry are against you. I look forward to meeting and riding with you one day, you can show me how it's done.....

Mike, the Blackbird suffers in comparison to modern sportsbikes in regard to its weight and geometry. It steers more slowly and is harder to haul around. The Busa is largely as Alf describes it, a bigger heavier sportsbike with a little more room to move. Again at the extremes you can't hide the weight. A couple of local guys here prepared Busas in an unlimited superbike series. They did great down the straight but got burned in rapid changes of direction and ate their tires, falling back the longer the race went.

Now here's where things get interesting: a Busa will out handle a BLackbird, particularly in slower tighter going, but you have to ride it aggressively to get the best out of it. The Blackbird and the FJ have the happy knack of heavier sports touring machines of being able to flow along at a pretty rapid pace without beating their rider up. So in a short sprint up a canyon, you are much better off on the Busa. Over a day in the saddle in a variety of roads, the Blackbird will take less out of you and will get you there faster and with less effort.

So the question you have to ask yourself is: what kind of riding are you going to do and what is the best tool for the job?

For me, half day runs under a couple of hundred miles: Busa. For a fast good handling bike over a day of hard riding: Blackbird.  

Oh, I meant to add the little I know about Blackbirds and FI.

96-99 Carbs. Seems to run very well, lotsa power and great carburation

99-00 FI but some issues with abrupt fuelling from closed throttle and low rpm

01-02(?) fuel issues sorted

02(?)- cats in the mufflers, a little less power and a little more weight.

Lots of people argue about the power, my 'seat-of-pants-o-meter' reads 'plenty' aboard any model 'Bird.

Why are we comparing modified bikes vs stock ones?  Nevermind that a stock blackbird and a 17" converted FJ will have the same weight and comparable rubber, but a big power difference... I'm sure that a 1350 heavily modified FJ could beat it in a straight line as well if the blackbird was stock?

Don't be silly.

If you want to push curves hard, you want something >100lbs lighter, or as mentioned, REALLY light like a supermoto.

rusjel: maybe one day we meet with a Blackbird and a FJ in a piece of tarmac... maybe at OK Corral..

I agree with your disagreements about my disagrees   :biggrin:  most of this are personal tastes too. Its clear that most of the time I´m faster in a FJ and you´re faster in a Blackbird

Only another point of view: do you consider an FJ 1300 faster and with better handling than a Blackbird?. Motociclismo rode 3 sgs faster with a completely std FJ 1100 over the grand daughter FJR 1300 at the Jarama circuit

Quote from: novaraptor on February 28, 2014, 08:46:38 AM
ZARF.. ZARF..hmm..Sounds suspiciously like a VURP. Could you use it in a sentence, please? Oh, and don't mind me, I'm just going to be using the computer over here to, uh, uh, check my uh, email and stuff...

Setting: Old timey FW Woolworth, or any old time ice cream / soda fountain joint. Soda jerk responds to your request for a cherry lime smash. "I'm sorry sir, but I can't serve you a proper cherry lime smash because all of our zarfs are currently being washed."

This should help, otherwise you're just not old enough to have seen one of these. You had to have been at least 30 years old when the FJ1100 was first introduced to appreciate a zarf.

Final hint: zarf is a real word not an urban creation, or slang.

Quote from: andyb on March 01, 2014, 07:52:20 AM

If you want to push curves hard, you want something >100lbs lighter, or as mentioned, REALLY light like a supermoto.

Indeed. But some of us have behemoths and like to push them hard. That'll be preference Andy, not an expression of how much common sense a person has. Tell me, if you have done trackdays, that you haven't seen a similar beast to your bike at such an event and wanted to know how yours would measure up against it?

I started my input into this discussion with a stock 'Bird and a slightly modified FJ because I guess a lot of people wanting to optimise their FJ would have done the mods outlined. A lot of people put a 6mm shim on top of their Blackbird shock because it has been shown to greatly improve turn in.

Neither represent the sort of time and money required to turn an FJ into a 1350.

But since you've raised it I'll play. I'd still find the 'Bird more agile and the FJ more comfy. It would be interesting to see what more mumbo could do for the FJ's lap around PI, it it would make no difference at all around a tighter circuit, where the FJ's heft and clearance is the limiting factor. O.k?

Alf, I've never ridden a Feejer (it's what we call them in Oz)  hard on the track or road, but from what I've seen they handle very well as a tourer.

Seeing the FJ1100 was initially released as Yamaha's balls out sports bike challenger and the FJR was always intended to be a sports tourer I'm kinda glad the FJ is faster around Jarama! 

FWIW I've always thought either of my FJs (solid or rubber mount) handled better on more spirited rides than a Feejer.

But the more of a crippled old guy I become the more attractive that kind of bike becomes and I reckon our of the Concors, ST1300 the Feejer is the pick of the litter. :-)

Quote from: rusjel on March 01, 2014, 03:04:53 PM

.....But the more of a crippled old guy I become the more attractive that kind of bike becomes and I reckon our of the Concors, ST1300 the Feejer is the pick of the litter. :-)

I've ridden the FJR and they 'feel' like they are...100lbs heavier than our FJs with less ground clearance.
Still, the FJR is faster than the stock FJ (but not my RPM1350) and a very nice sport tourer with the emphasis of tourer. It just 'feels' like a big bike (to me) yet in the hands of a aggressive rider like Dean or Marsh, it would no doubt, run away from me...

Question to Russ and Alf: Where does the Kawa ZX14 fall in the mix? Not as nimble as the 'Busa?
I've always thought that the big Kawa with a Spiegler bar conversion and a Penske shock would be a competent sport tourer.
Thanks guys for the great insight....

Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 01, 2014, 03:39:25 PM

Quote from: rusjel on March 01, 2014, 03:04:53 PM

.....But the more of a crippled old guy I become the more attractive that kind of bike becomes and I reckon our of the Concors, ST1300 the Feejer is the pick of the litter. :-)

I've ridden the FJR and they 'feel' like they are...100lbs heavier than our FJs with less ground clearance.
Still, the FJR is faster than the stock FJ (but not my RPM1350) and a very nice sport tourer with the emphasis of tourer. It just 'feels' like a big bike (to me) yet in the hands of a aggressive rider like Dean or Marsh, it would no doubt, run away from me...

Question to Russ and Alf: Where does the Kawa ZX14 fall in the mix? Not as nimble as the 'Busa?
I've always thought that the big Kawa with a Spiegler bar conversion and a Penske shock would be a competent sport tourer.
Thanks guys for the great insight....

Pat...I think your opinion of the FJR is correct. I have ridden the 14 after putting an Akrapovic pipe on it (my dentist's bike).....it was very, very smooth....more "polished" than the Hayabusa. The handling was "Big Bike"....my busa has Ohlins rear shock, late model nitride forks with Traxxion cartridges etc etc. I think the 14 is more nimble than the busa in stock form. On that note the Kawasaki absolutely sucks to work on compared to the Hayabusa. They both suck to work on compared to the FJ which is the easiest bike I have ever worked on and I owned a shop in the 90's.
I have ridden my busa to Mid Ohio back and forth in 1 day 3 times. I raised the via a spacer 1/2", put drag race rear sets (though there are much cheaper options) etc. That ride is to and from Massachusetts.
I like the big bike feel on the open road....tou feel planted and tractor trailers don't suck you in. I have a 2000 RC-51 (#33 off the line) for real fun. :yes: Damn I love that bike. :rofl2:

Thanks Mike, yea, I suspect that in the distant future when the time comes that we have to work on these new bikes, we will wish for the days of our old school FJ's.

Funny how life repeats itself....I remember my dad telling me a story about a road trip and developing a rod knock on his Model A, so by the roadside, he dropped the oil pan, cut up his leather belt and shimmed the rod bearing. He said he ran it like that for hundreds of miles.
Back in the 60's he mentioned that missed the old days, as he struggled with these new fangled OHV engines and multi barrel carbs...."much too complicated" he said.

Quote from: RD56 on March 01, 2014, 09:58:02 AM
all of our zarfs are currently being washed....

OK...  this hint did it for me, but not from ice cream.  A ZARF is the thingy you pop the disposable cup into that gives it a handle.  I heard this once long ago and far away, so maybe it is a generic term for a carrier of sorts that dresses up the disposable thing you serve the ice cream in?

Frank

Quote from: RD56 on March 01, 2014, 09:58:02 AM
You had to have been at least 30 years old when the FJ1100 was first introduced to appreciate a zarf.

I was only 21...  the ZARF I had heard of (kinda) was a little plastic frame with a handle that you snapped Solo cups into so you could drink hot coffee in a thin plastic cup without buying your hands.

Frank

I remember those things but I did't know that was what they were called. The ones I remember seeing were probably stainless steel. I would guess ZARF was probably the manufacturer.  Dave

Quote from: JMR on March 01, 2014, 04:03:19 PM

Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 01, 2014, 03:39:25 PM

Quote from: rusjel on March 01, 2014, 03:04:53 PM

.....But the more of a crippled old guy I become the more attractive that kind of bike becomes and I reckon our of the Concors, ST1300 the Feejer is the pick of the litter. :-)

I've ridden the FJR and they 'feel' like they are...100lbs heavier than our FJs with less ground clearance.
Still, the FJR is faster than the stock FJ (but not my RPM1350) and a very nice sport tourer with the emphasis of tourer. It just 'feels' like a big bike (to me) yet in the hands of a aggressive rider like Dean or Marsh, it would no doubt, run away from me...

Question to Russ and Alf: Where does the Kawa ZX14 fall in the mix? Not as nimble as the 'Busa?
I've always thought that the big Kawa with a Spiegler bar conversion and a Penske shock would be a competent sport tourer.
Thanks guys for the great insight....

Pat...I think your opinion of the FJR is correct. I have ridden the 14 after putting an Akrapovic pipe on it (my dentist's bike).....it was very, very smooth....more "polished" than the Hayabusa. The handling was "Big Bike"....my busa has Ohlins rear shock, late model nitride forks with Traxxion cartridges etc etc. I think the 14 is more nimble than the busa in stock form. On that note the Kawasaki absolutely sucks to work on compared to the Hayabusa. They both suck to work on compared to the FJ which is the easiest bike I have ever worked on and I owned a shop in the 90's.
I have ridden my busa to Mid Ohio back and forth in 1 day 3 times. I raised the via a spacer 1/2", put drag race rear sets (though there are much cheaper options) etc. That ride is to and from Massachusetts.
I like the big bike feel on the open road....tou feel planted and tractor trailers don't suck you in. I have a 2000 RC-51 (#33 off the line) for real fun. :yes: Damn I love that bike. :rofl2:

Pat at the risk of sounding ( more like) a know-it-all I have quite a few miles on a ZX-14. It belongs to a friend who like me, has his bike set up for distance work, but enjoys a spirited ride as well.

Glens bike has after market springs and valving, 20mm risers and spotlights. Before he had the suspension done the bike felt pretty soggy for the enormous power it was toting.

I also dislike the truck like whine as you accelerate through 1st gear.  Again a consequence of the huge power the thing makes. Low and midrange it makes the Blackbird and to an extent the Busa, look a little anaemic and it has an amazing top end rush.

Refinement wise it's rougher than the bird, more refined than the Busa, although the Busa has a sweeter gearbox.

Handling I think it steers more slowly than the Busa or Bird, but holds a line well and will turn if you have the confidence to chuck it in.

It is a better tourer than either. Now that Glen has had the suspension done it soaks up the bumps, weight transfer under brakes is much better than stock and is not fatiguing to ride a long way.

If I was after the ultimate grunt monster it would pip the 'Bird as an all rounder, but as it is I think the 'Bird just shades it as an all round package.

Some say the K1300S BMW is better than them all, but I've never ridden one to compare.

JMR, the RC-51 is one of my all time lust bikes. It goes just as hard as a 998 or Mille and it's the only one of the three I fit reasonably comfortably on. Jealous! 

Quote from: rusjel on March 01, 2014, 08:13:16 PM

Pat at the risk of sounding ( more like) a know-it-all.... 
 

No, no, not at all....I appreciate your view point. I've only read about the comparisons in magazines. Never have I talked to folks who have first hand experience.
I have ridden both the 'busa and Zx14 but it was not long enough for me to get a opinion on the difference between them..

They both scared the shit out of me.... looking down thinking holy shit I'm going 140....feels like 80...sooo damn smooth with a lot of throttle left to open.

Thanks!

Quote from: rusjel on March 01, 2014, 03:04:53 PM
Indeed. But some of us have behemoths and like to push them hard. That'll be preference Andy, not an expression of how much common sense a person has.

Sure, I totally understand that :)  I really like machines in that ~500lb range myself for sport-touring.  You get a better ride and more stability, plus because they tend to be the open class machines, they were the top of the range models when new, so they have less apparent corners cut in their design.

But I do a significant amount of straight line highway miles.  If I lived someplace near a racetrack or with significant curvy roads, my preferences would be much different.  On my yearly-ish trip to see a friend slightly SW of St Louis, I'm usually wishing for something in the 425lb range, simply because the roads seem endlessly twisty and vastly smoother than the heavily frost-damaged and potholed ones that I spend the bulk of my riding time on.

At the dragstrip, it seems that the liter bikes are doing quite a bit better than the big machines, though they universally share a lack of clutch life as compared to the >1200cc stuff.  Weight really does count!

I remember hating my CBR600F2 because you constantly had to cane it to death just to make progress, the ride was harsh, and it was difficult to ride in a stiff crosswind.  All things that the FJ had no issue with at all!  And yet, on the right road, the lack of weight made things nimble and much, much more rewarding than throwing around something heavier and feeling it complain.  So it just depends on the riding you do and your preferences.

Quote from: TexasDave on March 01, 2014, 06:53:34 PM
I remember those things but I did't know that was what they were called.

I recall somebody, maybe an uncle or grandfather asking for "the ZARF" and then pointing at the cup thingy when I looked puzzled.  I really didn't remember this until the clue about the soda somehow...

Frank

Is that what those brown plastic holders were, that held the paper cone cups with ice water?

Use of ZARF might be kind of regional also. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest US in the 50's and 60's, and recall seeing them, but don't think that I ever heard the term. If I had been pushed to guess, and given the era, I might have ventured "the sound your butt makes sliding across the seat of an International Harvester pickup".

Regarding the concept of heavy bikes and the feel of the weight, it is very hard to escape the feel of that extra weight, of course.  But it's not impossible, in some circumstances.  I have ridden a buddy's late model Goldwing. 1800CC makes for a good power plant with excellent grunt, and ground clearance was better than I expected. I was not able to make it touch down -but I did not push it hard.  But what surprised me most, was how 'light' it felt above say 10 mph. 

Honda has done a good job of hiding that weight (centering the mass around the roll access) and those moments of inertia (side to side transitions) are much more flick-able than I expected. I never got a chance to ride it in the real tight stuff and I figure that weight can't hide forever, and would eventually make itself evident.  But for the ~20 miles I got to ride it, including highway, around town and parking lot maneuvering, I was more impressed with handling than I expected to be.

Food for thought...

Dan

     

Quote from: Dan Filetti on March 05, 2014, 07:10:04 AM
Regarding the concept of heavy bikes and the feel of the weight, it is very hard to escape the feel of that extra weight, of course.  But it's not impossible, in some circumstances.  I have ridden a buddy's late model Goldwing. 1800CC makes for a good power plant with excellent grunt, and ground clearance was better than I expected. I was not able to make it touch down -but I did not push it hard.  But what surprised me most, was how 'light' it felt above say 10 mph. 

Honda has done a good job of hiding that weight (centering the mass around the roll access) and those moments of inertia (side to side transitions) are much more flick-able than I expected. I never got a chance to ride it in the real tight stuff and I figure that weight can't hide forever, and would eventually make itself evident.  But for the ~20 miles I got to ride it, including highway, around town and parking lot maneuvering, I was more impressed with handling than I expected to be.

Food for thought...

Dan

Dan,
That was the impression that I had of the Goldwing that I owned. It felt much lighter than any 800 lb. motorcycle should feel.  That flat 6 is a jewel of an engine. But hopping from it to the FJ was a real revelation. Comparatively, the FJ felt like a 600 supersport, especially when it came to stopping.
All that being said, I could see buying another Goldwing down the road in a couple of years.
Joe

I´ve asked to my friend Miguel about the XX. He has been near everything in the motorbike world: competition rider, chief of mechanics, Bridgestone developer, tester & presenter, manager, race-school instructor.... Here there are his opinions about both bikes. Sorry if there are errors with the translation

Good question. Making memories and comparing side to side....
Starting with, I don´t like the CBR 1100 XX at all. I will never have one, I promise, and that Heaven punish me if one day I lost my head and I buy one. Its a nosense motorbike: it was made to win the performace race, lost in advance by Honda
More, even althought the first carburated series were better, it didn´t work properly with a lot of problems with the distribution chain, the same as the rest of the CBR Honda models. Its incredible that building that engines a lot of years from 1986, the tensioners continue being the weak point of this engines.
Very soft suspensions taking from the CBR 1000 series that discourage you of using all the power available and not too good finish, the quality is a bit dissappointing. You can like or dislike the Hayabusa but it is an impressive bike. The 1100 XX is not ugly. We could say that the Notre-Dame hunchback is Brad Pitt comparing with the bike. I would prefer a couple of boxing matchs with Mike Thysson that looking that bike for more than 30 seconds. I pray God that my eyes explode if I pass that time and I continue watching that bike.

We could consider comparable the FJ and the XX because both are bikes designed for fast touring, althought with 20 years of difference, but it is not this way: the FJ is a logic evolution of a very advanced sportbike of its era, the XX not.

To start with, the XX is a completely new bike with no precedents by Honda. Its an Honda try of showing to the competente that they have the best technology and the best engineering knowledges. So Honda got a CBR 900 engine, did an steroids treatment, installed a Ram-Air (kawasaki copied) and fit the thing in a Yamaha-copied chasis. Add CBR 1000 96 suspensions and  design an aerodinamic bodywork wind tunnel shapped. And presto!, you get 300 km/h... well, not!
The standard bike never get that speed. Only a bit of debris at the Ram-air scopes and the bike lost 7-10 cv

The XX have shorter axle lenght than the FJ, but the headstock geometries are much more conservatives. The Hayabusa have more agressive geometries and near the same lenght than the FJ.

The 1100 XX is not a akward bike, only the suspension and the rider position contribute to the oil-tanker feeling. With much more hard suspensions and with Bridgestone BT021 is much more flickable. The problem is the rider position: the FJ ergonomics are perfect and this make natural the movements on the bike, with low & back center of gravity. The XX have a very high center of gravity, that not only is worst moving the bike at low velocity. Braking, inside the curve or looking for acceleration is a bad thing too.

An FJ with modern tyres and std suspension but in good working order (and better brakes too) is more nimble, manegeable, effective in sport riding and more comfortable in all ways than a XX. I´m assure you than a STD FJ leave for dead an STD XX except in fast and straight roads. When the road started to get twisty again, the FJ owner will pass the same level XX rider and with a more relaxed riding.

More: a non experience rider on big superbikes with only 3 months in a GS 500, i.e., would ride faster & safer the FJ on a twisty road without problems, but not with the XX and he would be much more slower and less safer with the XX.

So you think the FJ is a better bike...works for me :good2:

Well, not me that only have eyes for my BIG babe  :pardon:

The amazing thing is that Miguel, with extensive experience about all types the motorbikes for the last 30 years consider so high the FJ

He is an ultra modified MT01 owner & recent FJ owner too. In my Spanish web I have published the work that he has been making with the FJ 1991 on suspensions because  it is impressive. Not for any spectacular mods. He has been working with OE elements with, to my judgement, the most delicate FJ to get good result of in sport riding mod

Well, the FJ was the most popular bike of the motorbike mag journalists in Britain. And they had a lot of offers on test bikes...

Soon I will finish of translate it and I will publish in my web, I promise  :sorry:

Thank you Alf, that is a very interesting perspective from Miguel.

I have always enjoyed your website. Lots of good stuff there. I look forward to your update.

Pat

Quote from: Alf on March 13, 2014, 02:47:39 PM
Well, not me that only have eyes for my BIG babe  :pardon:

And this right here is the most important factor. You've found a bike that you love and are willing to defend it to the death. I liked mine a lot too.

But if we are bringing other people's opinions into the mix, here's one from visordown about what they consider the top ten sportstourers in around 2006.

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-top-10s/top-10-sports-tourers/11412.html (http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-top-10s/top-10-sports-tourers/11412.html)

And an owner survey on what they are like to ride, design comfort and build quality:

http://www.visordown.com/reviews/motorcycles/sports-tourers/honda-cbr1100xx-super-blackbird-1996---2008/review/177.html (http://www.visordown.com/reviews/motorcycles/sports-tourers/honda-cbr1100xx-super-blackbird-1996---2008/review/177.html)

When I was researching my next bike, I was particularly impressed by the comments that if the journos were all made redundant tomorrow they would probably buy 'Birds as their own bike.

Now the article isn't perfect, how could it be if the FJ didn't make the cut, but it does expose a wider view of the bike.

Me? I'd have one of each, like the member posted above. In a couple of years you will be able to ride an FJ under much cheaper classic rego and I can't wait!  

Edit: actually the above wasn't completely true, I really wanted a Sprint GT, but they were too expensive for me. Buying a 'Bird was a happy accident because one was available cheap. I almost didn't give it a go because of the interwebz experts telling me they were 'souless', 'not as fast as a 'busa' or that the brakes would kill me in the third corner! I'm glad I gave it a go.

I guess if I had the money I'd still prefer the GT as I really like triples, but there it is. In the meantime Alf, I look forward to meeting you one day and we can talk more about the many deficiencies of my bike raised by your very interesting friend! Enjoy your FJ!

The bottom line is these are all 2000 MY and newer. Other than a couple mutants, these still can't compare to the FJ numbers, 15 years their junior. I guess we'll have to wait for the 40 year Top #1 review.

Quote from: RD56 on March 14, 2014, 06:01:49 PM
The bottom line is these are all 2000 MY and newer. Other than a couple mutants, these still can't compare to the FJ numbers, 15 years their junior. I guess we'll have to wait for the 40 year Top #1 review.

I think if we were comparing sports tourers as a function of how they compared with other bikes of their era, the FJ has to be right up there, It was the absolute stand out of its day.

I think the 'Bird is the best of the late 90s early naughties and so do a lot of other people, but the field is much tighter and it isn't the obvious standout of its era the way the FJ is.

The reviews were included to add a bit of perspective. As they show and with due respect to Alf's friend, comments that question the design integirty, function, build quality and effectiveness of the Bird are, on examination of a wider audience, a bunch of c__p!

Edit: His comments about the handling are no more of less subjective than mine and I'm happy to agree to disagree there. 

Quote from: rusjel on March 14, 2014, 08:51:25 PM

The reviews were included to add a bit of perspective. As they show and with due respect to Alf's friend, comments that question the design integirty, function, build quality and effectiveness of the Bird are, on examination of a wider audience, a bunch of c__p!

Edit: His comments about the handling are no more of less subjective than mine and I'm happy to agree to disagree there.  

I would like remember that Miguel has ridden, raced and dismounted near every bike since the RD 350 F to today. Even each riding style is a different universe, I respect a lot his opinions

To my discharge I have to say that I was very surprised about Miguel review. We have not spoken of the theme before. To my own judgement the Bird is a great bike, being the carb version it could be a buying option for me and I would recommend it. And I think the bike is gorgeous (it is an advantage that Miguel don´t speak English  :biggrin: ). But having riding the bike I only can conclude that except in straight roads the FJ is vastly superior in sport riding mod and easier of ride too, sorry

Reading the article about the sport touring bikes, I think that the first issue that we have to fix is the definition of the sport touring bike. To me, an sport toruing bike is NOT a bad or deficient sport bike. Here I don´t want to say those are bad bikes. Only sport bikes that can´t compite with other of this era

I.e. an Aprilia Falco is an excelent bike, but in no way an sport touring bike. Its an sport bike not at the level of the other of its age. And it may be a joke that BMW rs1100Rs or F800ST  are good sport touring bikes... well, the same that entry-level FZS 600 or Bandits, so much more expensive

And the GSXF 650... well, no comments

And where is it the touring side of the Hayabusa? try to acommodate a passenger... so an FJ is a BETTER sport bike than a Bird and a BETTER touring bike than a Hayabusa    :mail1:  :pardon:

A fully optioned Harley, complete with handlebar tassels and white wall car tyres is the perfect bike, the more chrome the better, IF that's what you want in a bike.

There is no universal standard by which bikes can be judged, even within a particular category. It is not a matter of which is better, it's a case of which one suits you best. Each bike has different characteristics that different people are drawn to and deem important.

Even within our FJ community, owners are attracted to and like their bikes for a whole range of different reasons.
There is a common habit of rating a bikes handling, brakes, flickability etc from a boy racers perspective. Not everybody rides like Rossi on the road nor wants a track day bike.
The appeal of power to some for example is only the secondary effect of low down torque, demanding no more of their bikes in terms of outright performance than a 250 would deliver.

Not everyone is going to favour a bike based on how it behaves at the limit.

The Blackbird vs the FJ? Both fine bikes with much to like about each one. Which is best all rounder? depends what you want your all rounder to do.
This, in my opinion, is a hair splitting argument with no winner.

Noel

I can't state my opinion on the subject as well as Noel but that is excactly the way I feel too. I think we might agree that for 30yr old the FJ still compares quite favorably to modern sport/tours. After reading the visordown reviews of the 10 best sport/toures I could not believe the Suzuki GSXF650 was listed. Seriously?  Dave

Noel, you´re right and I cpletelt agree with you  :yes:

But where do you leave the exciting & fun of arguing about?  :biggrin:

Take care, my friend

Quote from: TexasDave on March 15, 2014, 07:01:17 AM
After reading the visordown reviews of the 10 best sport/toures I could not believe the Suzuki GSXF650 was listed. Seriously?  Dave

My point exactly, that list reflects what that particular journo/tester deems to make a good sports / tourer. In my opinion, there is one basic thing ALL bikes touted as tourers should have - engine capacity.
Changing back 3 gears every time you want to overtake or come to hill, or cruising two up with a lot of gear into a stiff head wind at 13,000 rpm in 3rd is not my idea of a tourer.

Ask ten different magazines the same question and you'll get ten significantly different lists, some likely with all different bikes. Those lists are never the result of large scale polling, they are the opinion of the writer and anyone within shouting distance of his desk.

Noel

Anyone want to throw up a list of what they think are the 10 best sports / touring bikes of all time, perhaps in order of preference. It doesn't require first hand experience, just what ever you reckon, but if you forget to include the FJ you will be expelled from the forum.

Noel

Quote from: ribbert on March 15, 2014, 07:54:42 AM
Anyone want to throw up a list of what they think are the 10 best sports / touring bikes of all time...

1.  '91-93 FJ (especially the YZF750r/Thunderace/1349cc with flatsides Frankenstein that is Wizard...   :yahoo:)
2.  '89-90 FJ
3.  '84 FJ
4.  '85-87 FJ
5-10.  everything else...

Frank

To continue arguing I´m going to take a indirect approach

What is best sport touring, the CBR 1000 XX or an FJR 1300?

In touring mod there is no choice other than the FJR. Full stop

The controversial point is about the sport choice. Having riding both, I prefer the FJR for confidence, ergonomics, suspension... Only in straigh line (again) the Bird is faster

Here it is the indirect way of my argument

In 2003 5 tester of Spanish mag Motociclismo rode side to side a completely STD FJ 1100 (except for a rear shock, but with old Macadam tyres and STD brakes) with the new then (and lighter of the series) FJR 1300 in the Jarama circuit in Madrid. The differences were between 2-5 seconds FASTER on the 1100 than on the 1300. In a short circuit like this, it is a world of difference, when we are speaking about around 1´50" per lap. It is my difference between riding a modified rim & brakes FJ 1200 or a 2010 R6
The complete lap times were not published not to embarrashed Yamaha and discouraged potencial buyers of buying a 16.000 EUR bike compared to 2.500 EUR FJ, even the curves elapsed times were published, showing where it was the difference

Is it the FJ better sport bike that the FJR 1300?. A BIG yes. Is it the FJR 1300 vastly superior with passenger and cases?. Yep.

I would choose a FJR 1300 over a Bird to do a trackday?. A BIG YES again. The Bird is too cumbersome to think to go into a track (except maybe Nurburging)

My List;

1-my 92 FJ
2-"14 ninja 1000
4-triumph tiger 1050
5-ducati multistrada
6- "14 fjr es
7- connie 14
8- triumph sprint ST
9- bandit 1200
10- Honda st-1300

Scott

My touring-sport list
1.-FJR 1300
2.-FJ 1992 ABS
3.-Bandit 1250
4.-Triumph Sprint
5.-Fazer 1000 2000-2003
6.-Kawa ZXR 1200 S
7.-Bandit 1200
8.-Honda CB 1300 S
9.-Kawa Z750F
10.- Fazer FZS 600 2000-2003

My sport-touring list
1.- FJ 1200 86-87 / FJ 1100
2.- FJ 1200 88-90
3.- Fazer 1000 2000-2003
4.- Triumph Sprint
5.- CBR 600 F 2000
6.- Fazer FZS 600 2000-2003
7.- Kawa Z750F
8.- Bandit 1250
9.- Bandit 1200
10.-Triumph XC 800

That is a silly and goofy argument.

My idea of sport touring is very different than yours.  My roads are different, my laws are different, my weather conditions are different.  So the lists are different, and there's an endless and unmitigatable argument waiting to happen.

My idea of sport touring is that I want something deadly reliable, first and foremost (can't go for a long ride if you don't trust the machine to get you home).  It then needs a decent riding position, a bit of weight forwards on my wrists and my heels definitely under my butt.  Legroom would be nice, but for posting up over big bumps or railway crossings, I want the ability to crouch slightly to retain control and stability.  Further down the list, I want a usable powerband; enough power to deal with traffic in top gear at whatever the local average speeds are, because it's no fun caning the crap out of it out of necessity (instead of for the joy of it, because you want to!).

I have little to no need for luggage space, though a steel tank is nice so that a magnetic tankbag works.  And then, there's the sport end of it.  It's got to wear the sort of rubber that is available in common, sticky sizes (120/70r17 and a 160/180/190 rear 17" piece.  It also needs a comfortable suspension and seat, preferrably one that is easily adjustable, so that I can go through rough highways all day, stay overnight, tighten things up in a few minutes, and play more aggressively when I've arrived someplace with more interesting roads.


Honestly to me, it's all about being what a car would be considered a Grand Tourer.  Something that you don't necessarily want to ride around the racetrack, but makes the drive to go see the races enjoyable, and can make the ride back that much more exciting after getting fired up watching a race for the day.

I want a bike that can drive the 2 hours from here to the sweeping, enjoyable twisty bits along the mississippi, and then enjoy them once I'm there, without being too fatigued to have fun. 

My ZX9 isn't half bad at sport touring, though the seat is in desperate need of having some stiffer foam and less sharp edges.  The FJ is brilliant at sport touring.  A ZX11 in theory could be great, but not for me... my arms just aren't long enough, even with a corbin seat and 3/4" worth of taller bars.  A VFR750 is great, just short in the engine department--if the twisties were tighter around here, I'd be plenty happy with one.


A good sport tourer should make the idea of going for a fun ride at 70% pace sound like a great idea.  No matter how far away that road is.

A lot of those listed bikes I would see as tourers Andy, but like a lot of motorcycle related things, it's subjective, in the eye of the beholder and if you find something that works for you, just ride it and enjoy it!

For me a Sports tourer is something I can ride 1000ks on in relitive comfort and still be fun when the road gets twisty.

For what it's worth:

1. 01-02 'Bird
2. 1050 Sprint GT
3. 88 FJ 1200
4. ZX1400
5. 91- FJ1200
6. ZZR1200
7. Ducati ST3
8. Aprilla Futura
9. 1050 Sprint ST
10. 955 Sprint ST

But there's lots of bikes I haven't ridden that might have displaced some of these, like the K1200/1300s

I don't want to revisit the Bird vs FJ debate, I think everyone is familiar with my viewpoint now!

But just out of interest, what are the rake and trail figures for a 17" front wheel FJ1200? I couldn't find them in my Haynes manual.

Seat height FJ/XX 790/820 Wet weight 265/255 and I'm betting the that while the geometry on the XX will be quicker, there won't be much in it either. Interesting...

From Cycle (I think) published test specs on an '89 FJ1200

Rake 27.5
Trail 112mm

Specs for the Bird: 25°/99mm. Source: http://leanangle.info/bikes/Kawasaki/ZZR1100Info&Reviews/blackbird.htm (http://leanangle.info/bikes/Kawasaki/ZZR1100Info&Reviews/blackbird.htm)

Which explains why, for most people except maybe Alf and Miguel, the 'Bird steers faster than the FJ. not a huge amount in it, but there it is.

Now is that better or worse? Doesn't matter. Which do you like? That's the important bit.

On to my other Favorite Sports Tourer, the Sprint GT

Well what do you know? Seat height 815, wet weight 265, steering is a bit steeper again 23.5 degrees /88mm, which lines up with my seat-of-pants ometer.

Neither the Honda or the Triumph have the FJs generous handlebar rise, which is why aftermarket items are so popular.

It all backs up what I already thought, that particularly for our goat track roads here in Oz, a bit of heft is actually a good thing and together with sorted suspension help a bike to roll over the bumps is a good distance package and while not as nimble as a sports bike, still pretty handy on the twisty roads.

It may be my imagination, but I can really feel every one of the extra 30-40kg an FJR1300, Concours or ST is packing, particularly in the tighter going.

It seems that for my particular set of prejudices about 250-260kegs wet, relatively sporty yet stable geometry, comfy ride position and somewhere north of 125 horses is my happy place when it comes to Sport Tourers.   

Quote from: Alf on March 15, 2014, 05:38:32 AM

And where is it the touring side of the Hayabusa? try to acommodate a passenger... so an FJ is a BETTER sport bike than a Bird and a BETTER touring bike than a Hayabusa    :mail1:  :pardon:

I have put 600 mile days on both the FJ and the Hayabusa (the busa having lower footpegs and a 1" bar riser). The problem with the FJ is getting stuck in some unforeseeable 5 mile traffic jam with no exits. It just gets way to hot. I like a liquid cooled bike as I don't have to worry about that or a similar scenario.
As an aside....a 58 year old friend of mine from Quebec rode down to Indy for the last MotoGP....on his RC-51. He did several 600 mile days....hard man. :biggrin:

Air cooled engines support hot temperatures better than water cooled bikes. In fact, in order to look for mechanical resistance the desert vehicles are powered by air cooled engines. The problem is not the overheating in a FJ engine in a jam. Obviously using semi or full- synthetic oil can be harmful in a traffic jam in a  FJ engine. Even myself I've felt the incremental mechanical noise and the increasingly hardened of the gear change with this oils in a jam with my FJ. This can be near completely avoided with a mineral 20-50 w oil

The main problem is the air evacuation and the way that you feel it. In a FJ the hot air scape vertically and literally toast the rider (more in post 1989 FJs with bigger fairings). But it doesn't mean the engine is overheating. The Hayabusa have more studied the hot air flow, but i.e. in a FJR 1300 from the first series the hot air fry the pilot, mainly your legs and feet, and GPZ 900s overheat even the rider can't feel the hot...

My worst experience has not been in my near 400.000 kms riding FJs. It was in a traffic jam in Sevilla with my FZR 1000 in summer, with complete leather suit, gloves, boots... I remember a public thermometer indicating 52ºC, and the hot air from the frenetic radiator fan trying to refrigerating the engine directly focused to grilling me.

And living in Tenerife or travelling in July or summer on mainland Spain I have a lot of "warm" experiences

Quote from: Alf on March 23, 2014, 06:21:46 AM
Air cooled engines support hot temperatures better than water cooled bikes. In fact, in order to look for mechanical resistance the desert vehicles are powered by air cooled engines. The problem is not the overheating in a FJ engine in a jam. Obviously using semi or full- synthetic oil can be harmful in a traffic jam in a  FJ engine. Even myself I've felt the incremental mechanical noise and the increasingly hardened of the gear change with this oils in a jam with my FJ. This can be near completely avoided with a mineral 20-50 w oil

The main problem is the air evacuation and the way that you feel it. In a FJ the hot air scape vertically and literally toast the rider (more in post 1989 FJs with bigger fairings). But it doesn't mean the engine is overheating. The Hayabusa have more studied the hot air flow, but i.e. in a FJR 1300 from the first series the hot air fry the pilot, mainly your legs and feet, and GPZ 900s overheat even the rider can't feel the hot...

My worst experience has not been in my near 400.000 kms riding FJs. It was in a traffic jam in Sevilla with my FZR 1000 in summer, with complete leather suit, gloves, boots... I remember a public thermometer indicating 52ºC, and the hot air from the frenetic radiator fan trying to refrigerating the engine directly focused to grilling me.

And living in Tenerife or travelling in July or summer on mainland Spain I have a lot of "warm" experiences

When you see oil temps in the 320F range and have miles of traffic in front of you it doesn't matter what type of oil is in the crankcase. I'll take hot air blowing on me anytime. FJ's that have been super heated egg cylinders, the threads pull out of the cam saddles etc. FJ's run hot to begin with....I always wondered about their use in Legend cars. Take a hot running engine, enclose it and pin the throttle for 20 minutes. I think they became popular because all the KZ and GS engines were used for dragracing.

Quote from: Alf on March 23, 2014, 06:21:46 AM
Air cooled engines support hot temperatures better than water cooled bikes. In fact, in order to look for mechanical resistance the desert vehicles are powered by air cooled engines.

Alf, I think you will find many of those multi cylinder vehicles have greater separation between the cylinders, if not separate cylinders, and ALL have substantial ducted fan cooling. Unless you are talking something like a boxer engine with the entire cylinder exposed, like a stationary motor. Another reason is reliability and simplicity, very appealing when traversing remote areas. There are many components in a water cooled motor than can fail or be damaged. Loose your coolant, or the ability to circulate it, and your destination that day becomes anywhere you like, as long as it's somewhere in the next kilometre. Not a good thing out in the desert.

An in-line 4 such as the FJ cannot adequately cool the cylinders without air flow.

Quote from: Alf on March 23, 2014, 06:21:46 AM
The problem is not the overheating in a FJ engine in a jam.

I generally hate people giving isolated exceptions to a general rule but I have had my bike so hot that the heat was not only uncomfortable on my legs, but unbearable. I have heard the engine noises increase, the clutch chattering when engaging and the fuel tank scarily hot. This has happened many times when caught in unusual circumstances.
No big deal.

But, back to the exception to the rule, I did cook my lovely, low mileage, never had a spanner on it motor. It's not hard, just leave it running long enough, in hot enough temperatures and without moving.
The cooling ducts to the centre cylinders are there for a reason.

Noel

Living in Oz where things get warm I have often wondered about this.

Apart from the afore mentioned increased mechanical noise and heat rising from the motor I've never had an issue with any of my FJs.

My water cooled bikes have gotten coolant temperatures up to 114c in traffic, but according to the manuals that is still a few degrees cooler than when problems start. According to the manual the temp guage on the Bird will start flashing at 118 and the engine will auto shut down at 120.

If you did feel that an air cooler like an FJ was getting too hot is there anything else you can do besides giving it a rest?

A farmer friend of mine operates a cattle station and uses TSX250 Suzuki's for mustering. Because they do a lot of walking pace running in 40+ ambient temps he had some overheating issues. His solution was a an extra fan from a computer with manual switching to supplement the bikes radiator fan and says that works.

If you were worried and did a lot of traffic work perhaps a similar fan operating with the FJ's oil cooler would help?

Quote from: rusjel on March 23, 2014, 04:39:24 PM
If you did feel that an air cooler like an FJ was getting too hot is there anything else you can do besides giving it a rest?

Not really. On the odd occasion that is what I have done. The oil takes a long time to cool but the engine will cool relatively quickly, certainly in less time than it takes to re bore it and fit new pistons!

On that occasion my bike was already stinking hot and had I not just broken free of the gridlock I would have pulled over. However, no sooner had I got moving and there was a multi car pile up just ahead of me. All the traffic came to an abrupt and barely controlled halt, with me stuck in the centre lane and not a gap anywhere to get off the road. I was uneasy about being stuck out there without the motor running and expected the cars would soon start filtering their way around the accident , they didn't.

Quote from: rusjel on March 23, 2014, 04:39:24 PM

His solution was a an extra fan from a computer with manual switching to supplement the bikes radiator fan and says that works.

If you were worried and did a lot of traffic work perhaps a similar fan operating with the FJ's oil cooler would help?

This suggestion is regular raised here. It is the general consensus and certainly my own view that this would be next to useless on the FJ and about as effective as kneeling beside the bike blowing on it.

A car with a cooling system in good order should never over heat under any circumstances but for reasons of space and aesthetics, bikes systems are more marginal.

Noel

Yep, suspect you're right. Any blown cooling solution for the FJ would have to include the cooling fins on the motor as well.

My Dak daks (VW beetles) always ran cooler oil temps with all the tinware directing the air around the motor, in place.

Would kind of spoil the rugged good looks of that FJ lump though!

Thanks for your contribution, but apart for reading about the overheating problem in this forum I don't know a single FJ or XJR broken due to overheating... and a lot of water cooled bikes broken with expensive repairs due to overheating

So again, apart for subjective feelings and obviously that the air cooled engines get the tolerances wide with the temperature increase (so the sound increase), I can't agree, simply based in my own experience. In Spain in summer there is a lot of hot. And I've been riding at the Jarama circuit with more than 30ºC air temperature (maybe 45ºC on the tarmac) a lot of times, and suffering everyday on Madrid traffic jams. And my 1100 had perfect compression when I sold it with 165.000 mks