Turn signal electrical question

[FJmonkey]

No, not an open circuit, a short.

The resistor limits current, slowing the response of the metal strip in the flasher.. it's the high current in the flasher that builds up heat in the mechanism that causes it to flash rapidly.

At least that's the way I understand it.   

When a bulb fails the filament breaks, open circuit. Meter a good bulb and you have continuity and resistance, a bad one has neither. I am not an electrical guy but this seems very mechanical.

[Paul1965]

Okay, now that we have all of that out of the way, back to my OP: Why don't these lights work   

[rktmanfj]

No, not an open circuit, a short.

The resistor limits current, slowing the response of the metal strip in the flasher.. it's the high current in the flasher that builds up heat in the mechanism that causes it to flash rapidly.

At least that's the way I understand it.    

When a bulb fails the filament breaks, open circuit. Meter a good bulb and you have continuity and resistance, a bad one has neither. I am not an electrical guy but this seems very mechanical.

It is, indeed.

Exactly. An open circuit flows no current.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/open+circuit

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turn-signal2.htm

[Dads_FJ]

Okay, now that we have all of that out of the way, back to my OP: Why don't these lights work   

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread... I do think it helps to have an understanding of electronics when troubleshooting though.  Try a resistor from the green wire to ground (parallel) which should decrease the resistance of the circuit.  The value of the resistor should be about the same as the resistance of the 1157 lamp used for the signal.

[Paul1965]

Okay, now that we have all of that out of the way, back to my OP: Why don't these lights work   

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread... I do think it helps to have an understanding of electronics when troubleshooting though.  Try a resistor from the green wire to ground (parallel) which should decrease the resistance of the circuit.  The value of the resistor should be about the same as the resistance of the 1157 lamp used for the signal.

No worries, I didn't take it as a hijack. I want to reiterate though that I can get the LED's to function properly by either using a 12V source other than the bike or by using the same positive source on the bike to power the turn signal and marker light functions (but obviously they don't flash, I'm just mimicking it by momentarily powering the turn signal side). Also, I'm connecting the LED's to the bike and using them in addition to, not in place of, the OE lights. Therefore no resistor should be necessary to make them flash correctly.

[The General]

imho, flasher units are electronically load (Watts) sensitive. Decrease the load (blown globe-more resistance) and they flash faster. Converseley, if you increase the load (extra LED lights) they will flash slower. Keep increasing the load and they will eventually not flash at all. (The point at which they won`t work at all is dependent on electronic design of flasher unit)

(A) Adding another resistor in parallel will increase the load even more. (Less resistance because you`ve created another path for the power to flow). ..slowing down flasher or even stopping it.

(B) Add another resistor in series with (new LED`s) added Load only and (depending on it`s size) you could drop the voltage enough for the LED not to work at all - which will make flasher unit start flashing fine for the original circuit.

(c) Getting that resistor in series to be the right value for the LED`s (voltage) to operate and for flasher speed to be acceptable, could be hit and miss and perhaps not possible due to electronic design of flasher unit. (But start with a very low value resistor)

(D) Install an additional signal controller for your additional LED system - But they won`t flash in synchro most probably)

(E) Measure total load (Watts) and buy a replacement signal controller to handle that load. (perhaps one off a car would be closer to correct total Watts. (Load)

[red]

Okay, now that we have all of that out of the way, back to my OP: Why don't these lights work    

Paul1965,

Never an instruction sheet, when you need one.       Does this light company have a web page?

I am guessing that you have one turn-signal/marker-light assembly, for each side of the bike.  Hook up the trickle charger again, black to (-), red to (+).  That gives you the running light, correct?  Then touch the green wire bare end to the red wire bare end repeatedly, and see if you get the turn signal to flash.  The running light should stay on constantly, while the turn signal flashes.  If all that much works as it should, we can go to the bike.

Two wires feed each turn signal on the bike, a (+) wire which may be brown, and a (-) ground wire which should be black.  Connect the "key-on" hot wire to the lamp assembly red lead, and the black wire to ground.  That should give you the running lights.  You should only need the turn signal "hot lead" connected now, to flash the turn signal LEDs.  Connect the turn signal grounds if you like, but it should be redundant, at this point.

I just put replacement LED bulbs (XHIL-1156A) in my rear turn signals, and now the turn signals flash slightly faster (which I like a lot).  Your turn signals may flash faster, also.  Check back here with the results, good or bad.

Cheers,
Red

[Paul1965]

Okay, now that we have all of that out of the way, back to my OP: Why don't these lights work    

Paul1965,

Never an instruction sheet, when you need one.       Does this light company have a web page?

I am guessing that you have one turn-signal/marker-light assembly, for each side of the bike.  Hook up the trickle charger again, black to (-), red to (+).  That gives you the running light, correct?  Then touch the green wire bare end to the red wire bare end repeatedly, and see if you get the turn signal to flash.  The running light should stay on constantly, while the turn signal flashes.  If all that much works as it should, we can go to the bike.

Two wires feed each turn signal on the bike, a (+) wire which may be brown, and a (-) ground wire which should be black.  Connect the "key-on" hot wire to the lamp assembly red lead, and the black wire to ground.  That should give you the running lights.  You should only need the turn signal "hot lead" connected now, to flash the turn signal LEDs.  Connect the turn signal grounds if you like, but it should be redundant, at this point.

I just put replacement LED bulbs (XHIL-1156A) in my rear turn signals, and now the turn signals flash slightly faster (which I like a lot).  Your turn signals may flash faster, also.  Check back here with the results, good or bad.

Cheers,
Red

Hi Red. You described exactly what I have done already and the lights just won't work on the bike. As soon as I make the turn signal connection all I get is the turn signal, the running light stops functioning. I'm going to mess around with it a little more tomorrow, but at this point I'm thinking about just connecting the turn signal function to my key on source so I have a brighter running light and leave it at that.

[red]

Okay, now that we have all of that out of the way, back to my OP: Why don't these lights work    

Paul1965,
Two wires feed each turn signal on the bike, a (+) wire which may be brown, and a (-) ground wire which should be black.  Connect the "key-on" hot wire to the lamp assembly red lead, and the black wire to ground.  That should give you the running lights.  You should only need the turn signal "hot lead" connected now, to flash the turn signal LEDs.  Connect the turn signal grounds if you like, but it should be redundant, at this point.
Cheers,
Red

Hi Red. You described exactly what I have done already and the lights just won't work on the bike. As soon as I make the turn signal connection all I get is the turn signal, the running light stops functioning. I'm going to mess around with it a little more tomorrow, but at this point I'm thinking about just connecting the turn signal function to my key on source so I have a brighter running light and leave it at that.

Paul,

What if the red wire was intended to illuminate the turn signal, and the green wire was for the running light?  How would that be?  You may need to reverse the physical position of the lamp assembly, to get the "turn signal" LEDs to the outermost position then. 

Also, did you connect the bike's turn signal black wires to the black wire on the lamp assembly?  Right now, I am not really convinced that the black wire on the lamp assembly is the ground wire, but let's go one step at a time.  Did that lamp maker have a web site?

Cheers,
Red

[Paul1965]

Okay, now that we have all of that out of the way, back to my OP: Why don't these lights work    

Paul1965,
Two wires feed each turn signal on the bike, a (+) wire which may be brown, and a (-) ground wire which should be black.  Connect the "key-on" hot wire to the lamp assembly red lead, and the black wire to ground.  That should give you the running lights.  You should only need the turn signal "hot lead" connected now, to flash the turn signal LEDs.  Connect the turn signal grounds if you like, but it should be redundant, at this point.
Cheers,
Red

Hi Red. You described exactly what I have done already and the lights just won't work on the bike. As soon as I make the turn signal connection all I get is the turn signal, the running light stops functioning. I'm going to mess around with it a little more tomorrow, but at this point I'm thinking about just connecting the turn signal function to my key on source so I have a brighter running light and leave it at that.

Paul,

What if the red wire was intended to illuminate the turn signal, and the green wire was for the running light?  How would that be?  You may need to reverse the physical position of the lamp assembly, to get the "turn signal" LEDs to the outermost position then. 

Also, did you connect the bike's turn signal black wires to the black wire on the lamp assembly?  Right now, I am not really convinced that the black wire on the lamp assembly is the ground wire, but let's go one step at a time.  Did that lamp maker have a web site?

Cheers,
Red

Hi Red. As far as the wiring goes, it's pretty simple to figure out. The LED's are dual intensity, so they're dimly lit for running and brightly lit for the turn signal hence my reason for using my charger to test things before I did anything on the bike. Once I had the wiring figured out, I ran the LED's ground to the mounting bolt of the coil (I also tried using the OE turn signal ground), the running light lead to a key on source at the ignition switch, then the turn signal lead to the OE turn signal harness. Also, remember that LED's are polarity sensitive so connecting positive and negative generally results in no light at all.

[Arnie]

Dad & Pat,

You're both able to claim to be "right" on this :-)

LEDs have a very high reverse resistance (almost infinite) and a very low forward resistance.
So you two can fight over that. :-)

The reason that you need to add resistors if you're replacing normal bulbs is that the forward resistance is too low to draw enough current through a 'conventional' flasher unit to cause it to heat enough to drop the connection.

Arnie

[Paul1965]

And sorry, what I meant to say was "Also, remember that LED's are polarity sensitive so connecting positive and negative incorrectly generally results in no light at all.

For some reason I can't edit that post...

[red]

And sorry, what I meant to say was "Also, remember that LED's are polarity sensitive so connecting positive and negative incorrectly generally results in no light at all.
For some reason I can't edit that post...

Paul,

Got it, no sweat . . . 
Okay, maybe we are closing in on the problem, here. 
Hook up a temporary wire from the negative terminal of the battery, to the lamp assembly black lead.
Hook up a temporary wire from the positive terminal of the battery, to the lamp assembly red lead.
Try connecting the turn signal, from the bike's wiring.  Check out the results.
You may have grabbed a "running light" switched wire that does more (or less) than you think.
If all that temporary wiring works correctly, then you are ready to make things into a clean installation.
Tap off from the taillight (or headlight) hot lead directly, and use the dedicated ground wire to that bulb for the negative lead.
Do not use the frame as ground, until you get things working first. 
Then, when everything works, later you can try using the frame as ground, but that ground connection may be unreliable,
or maybe a high resistance to the battery negative terminal (caused by corrosion).

Cheers,
Red

[Dads_FJ]

Dad & Pat,

You're both able to claim to be "right" on this :-)

LEDs have a very high reverse resistance (almost infinite) and a very low forward resistance.
So you two can fight over that. :-)

The reason that you need to add resistors if you're replacing normal bulbs is that the forward resistance is too low to draw enough current through a 'conventional' flasher unit to cause it to heat enough to drop the connection.

Arnie

Understood about reverse and forward resistance, but that applies to a single LED and we are talking about a number of them in series or a circuit.  A single LED will drop about 1 volt across it (vs/ 7/10 for plain diode), and as you know if you just hook a battery up to it, it will draw so much current it will blow a fuse and/or damage the LED.

"is that the forward resistance is too low to draw enough current".  Wrong, this should read:   ...is that the forward resistance is too high to draw enough current.  It's ohms law... the HIGHER the resistance the LOWER the current.

An open circuit has infinite resistance and will draw zero current.  A short circuit has about as close to zero resistance as you can get and will draw a HIGH amount of current. 

[Paul1965]

And sorry, what I meant to say was "Also, remember that LED's are polarity sensitive so connecting positive and negative incorrectly generally results in no light at all.
For some reason I can't edit that post...

Paul,

Got it, no sweat . . . 
Okay, maybe we are closing in on the problem, here. 
Hook up a temporary wire from the negative terminal of the battery, to the lamp assembly black lead.
Hook up a temporary wire from the positive terminal of the battery, to the lamp assembly red lead.
Try connecting the turn signal, from the bike's wiring.  Check out the results.
You may have grabbed a "running light" switched wire that does more (or less) than you think.
If all that temporary wiring works correctly, then you are ready to make things into a clean installation.
Tap off from the taillight (or headlight) hot lead directly, and use the dedicated ground wire to that bulb for the negative lead.
Do not use the frame as ground, until you get things working first. 
Then, when everything works, later you can try using the frame as ground, but that ground connection may be unreliable,
or maybe a high resistance to the battery negative terminal (caused by corrosion).

Cheers,
Red

Thanks for the tips Red, I'll give it a try later this evening. It's a little too hot to be working in the garage right now