Clutch push rod ball bearing

[Bozo]

Gents,
        I started my FJ1200 without the clutch slave cylinder in place after an engine strip down. As I now know the the push rod flew out with a lot of oil.
My question is, can the ball bearing that sits at the end of the pushrod internally fly out as well?. I tried using a torch to look down the hole but I can't be 100% sure that the bearing is still there.

[FJmonkey]

If you searched you would have found volumes of posts covering this. The rod spears the cat, the oil pukes out like a sideways geyser, but the ball seems to have a pocket and rarely (if ever) get reported lost. If you have a small enough magnet on an extension you can fish it out to confirm its presence. Or you can put the slave back on and check for clutch function. If the ball is missing you will not be able to disengage the clutch. Let us know, some of us may have some bets on if the ball shoots out or not.

[Steve_in_Florida]

I started my FJ1200 without the clutch slave cylinder in place after an engine strip down. As I now know the the push rod flew out with a lot of oil.

Bozo,
Were you practicing for the rally "Push Rod Spear Chucking Event"?



How was your aim?

Were you able to nail the cat?

How much oil did you get on your leg? Was it the expensive synthetic variety, or the cheap dino-stuff? (OH NO, not an OIL question!!!)

Steve
BTW, _NOW_ you're a fully-vested FJ owner. This event *IS* a right-of-passage!

[andyb]

Short answer:  It's quite unlikely.

Long answer:  Pull the clutch cover off and start digging around.  It's not that much disassembly to get to where it should be.

Realistic answer:  Put the rod back in, put the slave back on, and see if the clutch works.  If it doesn't, the ball's not in place.

Ridiculous answer:  Toaster.

[SlowOldGuy]

Or:

If you'd just switch to DOT 5 fluid, you'd never have to remove your slave cylinder again.

(that ought to do it in for this thread....)

DavidR.

[rktmanfj]

Or:

If you'd just switch to DOT 5 fluid, you'd never have to remove your slave cylinder again.

(that ought to do it in for this thread....)

DavidR.

[Bozo]

Gee, good novelty of answers.I'll try to answer everyone

Slow old guy, the engine was completely pulled apart and the slave/ master seals etc were redone. Yes, I do use silicon fluid for road use.

Monkey, yes I did read the rod javelin bits but when you worked on early Kawasaki's with 2 to 3 psi oil pressure you tend to forget the Yamaha has a built-in compressor for an oil pump.

No I didn't cop oil on the boot because I now have Kawasaki ZRX1200 carbies fitted so I had to hold the choke from the righthand side (I now have the cable fitted), before anyone asks the bike hasn't been ridden yet with the rebuilt motor but it starts and idles beautifully.

Steve, I did use cheap oil for the initial run-in period (for my new pistons and rings for a short period). Since I don't have a cat, does my old border collie count, poor possum she is still having nightmares, shake attacks and tends to want to bite me when I pass by, lucky she is partially blind (not from the spear)

I was worried the ball fell out because the brake had little travel after the slave and master were bled. The lever is solid on take-up so I'm sure all the air was bled out. I am now convinced that because the bike has covered a fair few kilometers (most by other owners) the slave is badly worn and the inner piston spring does not push out properly when the lever pressure is removed (it does not move freely and tends to be notchy).

Thankyou to all for helping, I'll let you know how it pans out. While the slave cylinder is out I'll go out at night, grab a couple of cats and pectice with the rod/ spear for the Down under rally in March 2013

Or:

If you'd just switch to DOT 5 fluid, you'd never have to remove your slave cylinder again.

(that ought to do it in for this thread....)

DavidR.

[Goetz]

Background:
Modern standard brake fluids fall into two classifications: DoT-3 and DoT-4. The difference is in the boiling point. DoT-4 is higher boiling point than DoT-3. The boiling point must be no lower than the specified temperature when the fluid has up to a certain (small) amount of moisture in it. The boiling point comes down as the water content goes up.
The motivation for the development of Silicone Brake Fluid came from the military in the late 1960s. At that time the military used 3 kinds of brake fluid: one for tropical climates, one for temperate and arctic climates, and one for storage--to prevent corrosion. The military was interested in eliminating the expense and hassle of having to change fluids any time vehicles were taken in and out of storage or moved around the world.
A Silicone Brake Fluid became available in the early 70s under a number of labels, but the only manufacturers were Dow-Corning and General Electric. A formulation was finally achieved in the late 70s that satisfied DoT criteria and this became DoT-5 Silicone Brake Fluid.
I've been using silicone DoT-5 for over 16 years now in a multitude of cars--mostly air-cooled VW's. Since changing over to exclusive use of DoT-5 in 1979 I have almost completely eliminated the need to rebuild disk brake calipers and master cylinders. I have this in cars that are daily drivers and in cars that get driven less than once a year. I figure it pays for itself in every car every year, since I had found myself doing some kind of brake maintenance almost every year on my
older cars.
Altogether, I have installed DoT-5 Silicone Brake Fluid in more than 50 cars. Of all those I have had two problems. One was a Volvo where the master cylinder failed a few months later, and inspection revealed that a piece of dirt had come loose and lodged against one of the cups wearing a grove in it. The second was a TR-3 that had been rebuilt by the owner and I could never get it bled properly; that car finally worked when it was taken to a shop that understood British cars--they replaced all the brake parts and put DoT-5 back in with no problems.
The benefits:
Silicone brake fluid is non-hydroscopic. That is, it does not absorb water out of the air. Normal (DoT-3/4) fluids are all hydroscopic and their properties--boiling point, viscosity, viscosity as a function of temperature, and propensity to cause rusting of the metal parts of the brake system--change as the water content changes, all in the undesirable direction. It is a little known fact that ALL DoT-3/4 fluids need to be replaced periodically; every 2 years is probably adequate, every 4 years is definitely too long. Once properly installed, DoT-5 Silicone Brake Fluid never needs to be replaced.
Silicone Brake Fluid is an excellent lubricant for metal-to-rubber and metal-to-plastic contact points. This is in stark contrast to the Girling LMA DoT-4 which I tried as an affordable alternative to the hard to get and expensive OEM ATE Blue DoT-4. I found that master cylinder primary and secondary cups were wearing out in typically 2 years with Girling LMA. This was consistent with the "squeaky clean" pedal feel that I found with this fluid. While Silicone is poor for metal-to metal contact, there is very little of that inside a typical hydraulic brake system.
Silicone DoT-5 does not thicken in the cold temperatures that we get occasionally in this part of the country. At -25 F even dry DoT-3/4 gets quite thick and brakes get sluggish; wet DoT-3/4 is even worse. I realize this may not be a problem for most of you.
Silicone Brake Fluid does not attack paint like DoT-3/4 fluids do. So fluid that leaks out on your car will not destroy your paint and promote rusting.
The drawbacks:
Silicone Brake Fluid is expensive. It costs maybe 4 times as much as regular fluids, plus you need to use a lot of it to do the job right. I figure about 1.5 quarts for one of my VWs. If you have taken everything apart and don't need to do a lot of flushing, the job can be done with a bit more than half a quart.
Time consuming to install. You can't just pour it in and bleed the brakes. I figure two people for two hours, one hour if you know exactly what you are doing and have everything ready.
Not particularly environmentally friendly. It should not be flushed down the drain or allowed to get into the water table. While I don't think it has any particular noxious properties, it is persistent in the environment (does not break down like DoT-3/4--ever smelled an old brake part from the junkyard?) so take care how you dispose of it. Dow- Corning recommends disposal by incineration. I have avoided the problem by just recycling the fluid I use for flushing. More on this later.
Silicone fluid might not be suitable for new cars with ABS. This is not at all clear at this time. The manufacturers are adamant about just using their fluid. This may be due to the fact that ABS uses a pump which requires the metal-to-metal lubricity of DoT-3/4, or it might just be a marketing ploy. At this time I recommend caution.
Note that it IS safe to ignore the very specific warning in the Robert Bentley manuals not to use Silicone Brake Fluid in the VW water-cooled cars. These cars have brakes that have the same materials made by the same manufacturers as the air-cooled cars. I have done a dozen of these cars; Dow-Corning has done hundreds. Most of these brake components were made by ATE, Alfred Teves, GMBH, Germany. Teves makes brakes components and brake fluid. Last I heard they did not market a Silicone Brake Fluid, but they DO buy DoT-5 Silicone Brake Fluid from Dow-Corning to use as an assembly fluid so their parts won't rust on the shelf. Why this warning exists remains a mystery.
Silicone Brake Fluid that you spill on your car will make it hard to repaint that area unless it is cleaned off very carefully. It does not clean up with water.
Installing Silicone Brake Fluid in your car:
There are several possible ways to do this. They are all aimed at filling your system with 100% Silicone fluid. The quality of the job you do will be proportional to the degree that you rid your car of the old fluid. If you intend to do this job, please read through the whole FAQ and make sure you understand EVERYTHING before you start. Note that these instructions assume that you are already familiar with standard and appropriate brake system practice. If you are not, you will need to find someone who is to help you or study up on these things first.
If you are a manufacturer, all you need to do is clean out your existing pressure bleeder equipment and fill it with Silicone Brake fluid. Then just install it in your cars the same as you did before. This is obviously the easiest and cheapest way to do it. Unfortunately, it might add $5 to the manufacturer's cost, so we are not likely to ever see it happen. It is in general use in some fleet application, the military, the post office (I think?), and Harley-Davidson Motorcycles.
If you have an old car that previously had DoT-3/4 in it, you should get the hydraulic system into good shape first, then flush DoT-5 through it to replace as much of the old DoT-3/4 fluid as possible. Since the Silicone does not mix with the old fluid, the point of flushing is to create as much turbulence as possible in the volumes where the old fluid is present in order to create a "slurry" and carry out the old fluid, as well as any accumulated dirt, water, and rust. This means that you must pump the brake pedal HARD on the down stroke, and let it up relatively easily; do not slam the pedal into the end of its travel--that could damage the master cylinder. It is not necessary to close the bleed valve on the upstroke, but you should be bleeding through a clear plastic tube that leads to the bottom of a container that will catch your flushing fluid and prevent air from being sucked back up into the hydraulic brake system. When you flush the system one wheel at a time, you will observe that the fluid first comes out muddy (rust) or amber (typical DoT-3/4 color.) Then the color will turn cloudy. This is the slurry, or mixture, of the Silicone Brake Fluid and the old fluid--sort of like oil and vinegar. Eventually the cloudiness will go away and be replaced by the color of the DoT-5. Once this happens you have successfully flushed that wheel and can move on to the next.
Turbulent flushing is easy to achieve in the master cylinder and in drum brake cylinders. However, it can be quite difficult in some designs of disk brake calipers. Since one of the principle benefits of Silicone Brake Fluid is the prevention of frozen calipers, they deserve some special care. Here's the problem--Silicone Brake Fluid is lighter than regular fluid, it floats on top. Thus the large cavities in a brake caliper may still be half full of old fluid while the flush fluid appears to be coming out clean.
The best way to attack this problem is to remove the calipers and rebuild them. The best way to get rid of the old fluid is to flush the disassembled caliper parts with water because standard fluid is completely soluble in water. If the caliper is particularly dirty or greasy I will scrub it with soap and water, then rinse it with clean water, blow out all passages and finally rinse in alcohol and blow everything out. Dry it quickly to avoid rusting, and make sure to remove ALL traces of water. Let dry overnight in a warm, dry place. As a rebuilding lubricant use only Silicone Brake Fluid, or another silicone lubricant, not DoT-3/4 or any petroleum containing product. Then make some brake line caps from old brake hose female ends; just cut off the rubber hose and weld the metal closed. Use these caps to allow the rest of the brake system to be flushed and bled, removing one cap at a time to flush its line until everything is clean.
Now you can re-install your clean, rebuilt caliper on the car and let it slowly fill with DoT-5 until air stops coming out the bleeder valve. Keep in mind that it would be silly to go to all the trouble of rebuilding a caliper and then go mount it on the car and flush the old dirty fluid out through it.
If your calipers are in good shape, you can, as an alternative, unbolt the calipers from the steering knuckles and hang them upside down so the bleeder valves are on the bottom. Place a slab of wood or something between the brake pads to prevent the pistons from popping out of their bores when your helper pumps the pedal. Now the standard fluid will flush out selectively (remember, the standard fluid is heavier.) Air-cooled VWs, made 8/71 or later, came with a second bleeder valve on the bottom of the caliper. This makes these calipers easy to flush on the car. Just do all the flushing via the bottom bleeder valve, then finish off by bleeding any air off the top. These late calipers also have the advantage that it is easy to come back a week, a month, or a year later, and bleed just a bit of fluid out to eliminate the last drops of old fluid which is bound to persist.
Recycling old fluid:
The Silicone is expensive, but, unlike DoT-3/4 it does not absorb water. You can let your DoT-5 flushing residue stand until the silicone and standard fluid separate (the silicone is lighter and rises to the top.) Decant the silicone portion, then put it in a clean container and mix it vigorously with an equal amount of clean water. Any DoT-3/4 fluid will be absorbed into the water and, after separation, the recycled Silicone Brake Fluid can again be poured off the top.
I decant the Silicone Brake Fluid from the DoT-3/4 once, and twice from clean water, filtering each time. As a final step, I heat the decanted silicone fluid to about 110 C to verify that there is no water in the end product.
If you do this and keep it clean (NO PETROLEUM OIL!) the recycled silicone fluid can be reused to flush the next car. I typically use recycled Silicone Brake Fluid to flush a car, then do a final bleed with virgin DoT-5 Silicone Brake Fluid. This is preferable to throwing it away since it is difficult to dispose of properly.
Dow Corning recommends incineration.
Notes:
Color: The DoT-5 certification requires that Silicone Brake Fluid be purple. The dye that is used is only required to be stable enough to stay purple until you pour it out of the original container. It turns out that the purple dye is more soluble in DoT-3/4 fluids, so Dot-5 that has been flushed throughout a system full of DoT-3/4 will have lost its color to the DoT-3/4 and the Silicone Brake Fluid will now be clear or slightly amber. Something also happens to this purple dye after it has been installed in a car for a year or more; that fluid will also be clear. I have a small vial containing DoT-5 and Girling LMA that has been mixed for about 15 years; the silicone is clear and the once amber LMA is now green.
DoT-3/4 fluids: These are classified as poly-glycols. They are a mixture of compounds all chemically very similar to Ethylene Glycol, better known as antifreeze. These compounds have a sweet taste, but are poisonous. They should not be left out where your pets can get them. Every year a few dogs die after drinking brake fluid or antifreeze. I believe the lethal dose for a person is about 100 cc.
Material compatibility: Brake fluids must be carefully chosen to be compatible with all the materials exposed to them in the system. British cars were once notorious for using natural rubber seals that required special brake fluids. It is my understanding that by 1970 no one was still making brake components or rebuild kits still containing natural rubber parts. If you have a British car that still has 30 year old brake rubber parts in it, then you MAY need to be concerned. DoT-5 Silicone Brake Fluid, however, will be fine. It is compatible with all the elastomer materials ever used in hydraulic brakes.
ripped from
http://www.type34.com/library/26-technical-mechanical/584

[Bozo]

Goetz, that was one hell of a summary, I have been using silicone brake fluid since 1979 on my Z1R and other bikes I've had. I found that it can be used in callipers etc for years and easily pay itself off, plus it doesn't damage paint. As you have outlined the main part is that it is not hydroscopic which destroys regular fluids/cylinders over a period. For racing etc use normal high temp brake fluid but for touring and general riding and if you intend to keep the steed for a while use silicon fluid.

I might've missed this point on your write-up but because it is an oil base the cylinders don't wear anywhere near as much. Also my fluid is deep gold color (Penrite) not purple, interesting?.

To think that a simple ball bearing led us to these words of wisdom about brake fluids.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all

[SlowOldGuy]

To think that a simple ball bearing led us to these words of wisdom about brake fluids.

As usual, some idiot derailed the original thread by posting something unrelated to the topic.

The nerve of some people, eh?

Wait a minute .....

DavidR.

[Goetz]

That was just a cut n paste from a triumph forum. I will totally be switching to dot5 when i replace my clutch master n slave next spring. Till then......

And i dont have a cat but the stain under my bike in my avatar pic proves i have been initiated. I was all Like
"Herp derp, starting my bike up with no clutch slave attatched..... oh hell no!" I feel like we could use that pressure to spin a small alternator, provide extra juice for accesories.

[93fj1200]

Great, thanks for all of the information.
Greg

[Steve_in_Florida]

I feel like we could use that pressure to spin a small alternator, provide extra juice for accessories.

"Full power to the port-side weapons system.  FIRE!!!"

Remember, you only get ONE shot with the spear, and the tiny musket ball will likely misfire.

[Dan Filetti]

"Full power to the port-side weapons system.  FIRE!!!"

Remember, you only get ONE shot with the spear, and the tiny musket ball will likely misfire.

But the oil slick lay-down, a La' 007, can throw off chasers...

[Steve_in_Florida]

But the oil slick lay-down, a La' 007, can throw off chasers...

True, but I doubt you'd get very far after dumping all your precious lube and coolant juice all over the ground. Plus, it would only work if they were coming at you from the left!

True story:

I used to have a Subaru Legacy station wagon that would crap out a HUGE cloud of black, oily smoke if you let off the gas, then floored it.

Worked *GREAT* for tailgaters!   

"Q" would have been so proud.