OIL (i know)...

[racerrad8]

when your sat on the bike, which pan fittig is the flow from the engine and which is return from the oil cooler?

Right fitting, from the seated position, is the outlet.

Randy - RPM

[SlowOldGuy]

Doesn't the oil cooler just circulate the oil from and back to the sump?

If so, then why the need to maintain pressure?  Seems like the -6 fitting would be enough restriction anyway?

Just guessing here and looking to learn.

DavidR.

[racerrad8]

Doesn't the oil cooler just circulate the oil from and back to the sump?

If so, then why the need to maintain pressure?  Seems like the -6 fitting would be enough restriction anyway?

Just guessing here and looking to learn.

DavidR.

Yes, that is the FJ cooler circuit.

Because if there is not enough pressure maintained in the cooler, then it will only flow oil over the path of least resistance and not use the complete cooler, only a row or two. Sure the fitting is a restrictor, but after that it requires the oil to fill the larger capacity hose & cooler. If there is not enough pressure past the fitting then the oil will not travel through the complete cooler. because it is more "free flowing" than pressurized.

We see it all the time when guys use -8 fitting & hose on the oil pan circuit when used with a large cooler on the race car. Say the fittings are pointing straight up, then the oil falls to the bottom, across the cooler then out the other fitting. The top portion of the cooler substantially cooler than the bottom. The greatest tool ever invented for illustration to these guys about oil cooling systems...

The infrared temperature gun doesn't lie...

Randy - RPM

[ribbert]

right simple one here...
who uses synthetic oil?
anyone had issues with synthetic oil?
reason is... i've bought castrol power 1 10w-40 and don't want to use it if its crap.

Mmmmm, oil.  
I've read many testimonials here for oil.  Just how you determine one being better than the other I'm not sure.
The most common endorsement seems to be " I've been using brand X for years and haven't had a problem"

If you want to play with facts, 99% of engines that do extraordinary mileage do so on crap oil!  Taxis, buses, trucks, couriers etc.

I have one car I work on regularly ( 4cyl ) that's done 900,000 K's and the best oil it's ever seen is what the garage has in the 44 out the back.

The one thing all the above mentioned vehicles have in common is a low start to mileage ratio.

The wost thing you can do to an engine is start it cold, but this is of course, unavoidable. This is when a substantial amount of the wear occurs.

Oil, like most things, has no doubt benefitted greatly from modern technology and there may be a benefits to using synth, but how many 100's of 1000's of Km's do you plan on putting on the old girl anyway?
Granted, there may be specific applications where it has an advantage, but I'm talking general engine use.

It would cost me $150 a year extra to use it, that's another FJ every 5 - 10 years.

HOW YOU TREAT YOUR MOTOR COLD, HOW OFTEN YOU CHANGE YOUR OIL AND YOUR RIDING HABITS WILL HAVE A GREATER IMPACT ON ENGINE LIFE THAN OIL CHOICE.

I have nothing against syth oil I just can't see the value in it.

I did run it for 10,000 K's but had specific reasons for changing back to mineral.

SUMMARY

Run whatever you like, the FJ's hardly likely to fail prematurely in any of our lifetimes because of it.

Noel

[Arnie]

Ribbert,  +1 from me.

Ahhh, the voice of reason, logic, and sanity.
You will not be popular.

Arnie

I'm just curious where you get a new FJ for ($150*5)  or even ($150*10).
You must be a great shopper.

[SlowOldGuy]

Noel
WHAT do you think you're doing?  You can't use that kind of logic in this topic!

Somebody get a rope.

He's a Witch, BURN HIM!!!!

If the world wasn't flat, I'd sail over there teach you a lesson.  :-)

DavidR.

[SlowOldGuy]

Makes sense, thanks Randy!

DavidR.

[Dan Filetti]

We see it all the time when guys use -8 fitting & hose on the oil pan circuit when used with a large cooler on the race car. Say the fittings are pointing straight up, then the oil falls to the bottom, across the cooler then out the other fitting. The top portion of the cooler substantially cooler than the bottom.

Randy,

I do not doubt you here, but reading the above surprised me.  Do you, or does anyone else, know why doesn't the oil have a restricted path all the way through the cooler, thereby forcing the entire cooler to be used?  This is odd to me that it does not, or more precisely, I guess I have always assumed it does.  Something about high vs. low rpm conditions or possibly cold running vs. hot maybe.  I suspect it's something like this but I just can't figure it out. 

Like David, I am interested in learning more here.

Thanks,

Dan

[Mike Ramos]

Good morning everyone,

The oil cooler does not flow 100% of the oil that circulates through the engine (the gentleman from R.P.M can explain it in detail). When I needed to replace my road worn oil cooler, I bought the cooler Randy offers. It bolted right in without any problems, all the hoses and hardware are first class. At least 30,000 miles later all the fittings remain tight and leak proof. The hardware is also "as new".

Like everthing else that I have purchased from RPM, the products provided are simply the BEST available for our FJ's.

Unbeknownst to Randy, when the new cooler was installed, I confirmed the infrared findings by installing both an oil pressure AND oil temperature gauge. I have ridden the bike sometimes [very, very] hard and I have never seen 300 degrees, even in the hottest weather.

It is a fact that on the hottest days the oil temp will actually drop as the speeds increase (even into triple digit mph). I do not know if it is because of the increased air flow through the cooler or if more oil is diverted to the cooler itself. All I know is that it works and works well!

The oil temperature sender is located in the oil gallery on the side of the engine. I recently purchased another oil sender adaptor from RPM and am going to locate another oil temperature sending unit on the bottom of the engine. I will then be able to compare the oil temperature from two different locations.

I can post my findings if anyone is interested.

Thanks again to Randy and all the great top quality products from RPM.

Ride safe,

Mike Ramos.

[Mike Ramos]

I forgot to mention the oil cooler from RPM maintains 180 degrees in cold weather. It does not over cool the engine oil, which is anathema to long engine life.

Mike Ramos.

[racerrad8]

Randy,

I do not doubt you here, but reading the above surprised me.  Do you, or does anyone else, know why doesn't the oil have a restricted path all the way through the cooler, thereby forcing the entire cooler to be used?  This is odd to me that it does not, or more precisely, I guess I have always assumed it does.  Something about high vs. low rpm conditions or possibly cold running vs. hot maybe.  I suspect it's something like this but I just can't figure it out. 

Like David, I am interested in learning more here.

Thanks,

Dan

We are talking about large coolers on the race car, 12"x12". The size of the cooler requires the pump to be large enough to create pressure within the cooler and cause the oil to rise to the top due to the restriction. When big hose & fitting are sued on the lower volume secondary pump of the FJ once it leaves the pump and there is no back pressure, the oil will only flow the path of least resistance.

With the bike, the cooler is smaller and there is not such a large pressure drop in the cooler to have this occur. But, with that large cooler he is installing on his turbo chopper, he needs to maintain line pressure to have the cooler work efficiently.

If you want to give it a try. Hook up a 1/2 garden hose, turn on the faucet, note the pressure and flow of the hose. Now, separately hook up one each, 1/2", 5/8" & 3/4" additional hose to the original 1/2" garden hose.

As the additional hose gets bigger in diameter, the pressure and flow drops as they require more volume to fill the hose before it reaches the end. If you really want to see a change add a 1" or larger hose to the 1/2" and see the difference.

Randy - RPM

[SlowOldGuy]

Not to drag this out unnecessarily (oh what the hell).

Couldn't this be accomplished with a restriction on the outlet side?  I see where a small hose on the outlet side would cause back pressure, but does the inlet hose also need to be small?

I would think the volume of oil being pumped would determine how much of the cooler gets used?  A small amount of oil supplied at high pressure is still going to run to the bottom of the cooler.  Conversely, a large amount of oil at low pressure would use the whole cooler if it is more than the cooler can flow.

Sometimes this stuff is counter intuitive.  Like a radiator.  People used to remove the thermostat in an attempt to get an engine to run cooler.  That usually causes the engine to overheat since the water flows right through the radiator and doesn't spend enough time sitting in it and shedding heat.

DavidR.

[Mark Olson]

right simple one here...
who uses synthetic oil?
anyone had issues with synthetic oil?
reason is... i've bought castrol power 1 10w-40 and don't want to use it if its crap.

I run motorcycle specific synthetic oil. 

when 1st changed clutch will slip then be ok.

you can skip this by soaking your clutch fibers in the new oil first.

run what ya bought and see for yourself.

[backstreetheros]

following randys advice i ditched the huge oil cooler lines i previously bought...
went to my local engineering shop today and they made me up two an-6 female to male hoses for a reasonable £53.00
they are PARKER hydraulic hoses.
then i went to bredy agricentre (tractor shop) and they supplied me with two an-10 to an-6 reducers and a Male to female an-6 elbow.
all fits well on the bike. i had the return hose to the engine made extra long so i could route it well away from the exhaust pipes.
i'll try get some pictures up tomorrow.
i think the previous post about oil not really making that much difference is true.
i just didnt want to give any more reason why i should change to a better clutch!

[racerrad8]

1) Couldn't this be accomplished with a restriction on the outlet side?  I see where a small hose on the outlet side would cause back pressure, but does the inlet hose also need to be small?

A) Yes & no...The back pressure within the cooler is still going to dictate flow. If you have a large hose & cooler with a restrictor at the outlet, then you will have a back up trying to force the oil through the restrictor. That will slow the flow and fill the cooler, but then you have to control the flow to allow the cooler to work efficiently.

2) I would think the volume of oil being pumped would determine how much of the cooler gets used?  A small amount of oil supplied at high pressure is still going to run to the bottom of the cooler.  Conversely, a large amount of oil at low pressure would use the whole cooler if it is more than the cooler can flow.

A) We cannot confuse pressure & volume. They are two different things that must work together. If a small volume of oil at high pressure is put through a cooler that is restricted, pressure wise, then the cooler will fill completely, but once filled could actually raise the pressure.

And the same can happen on a low pressure/high volume, depending on the cooler, could actually raise the pressure as well.


3) Sometimes this stuff is counter intuitive.  Like a radiator.  People used to remove the thermostat in an attempt to get an engine to run cooler.  That usually causes the engine to overheat since the water flows right through the radiator and doesn't spend enough time sitting in it and shedding heat.

Exactly, that is why if you are not going to run a thermostat, you should run the appropriate restrictor. The water pump can pump the water too fast through the radiator. But if you reduce the size of the radiator and increase pressure then it will cooler better...

As far as the FJ is concerned since the cooler size is the biggest factor when mounting coolers the size really does not come into play. Now, just to throw in one more thing to make you scratch your head...

The cooler I offer for the FJ has a dual circuit built in based on the path of least resistance theory, acting as a thermostat and during the testing on the FJ is became clear how well it worked.

The coolers top two plates are a straight pass through whereas the other tubes are a cross flow-spiral tubes. When the oil is cold the path of least resistance is straight through until the oil comes up to temp. Then as the hot oil has a lower viscosity it can flow through the complete cooler. What we found when testing during the cold of winter the engine oil temp actually came to operating temp quicker and maintained in the 180* range at speed.

Check out photo #4;
RPM Oil Cooler Kit

The stock cooler would not allow the engine oil to rise above 150* on the same ride on the same day. I also note that during hot day riding the oil temp on my bike stays much more stable compared to the stock oil cooler on my wife's bike, it has a much higher fluctuation of temp.

Ultimately, back to the question at hand about hooking up that cooler on the chopper. That is a large cooler, 18 rows at 2" wide and the hoses he has a too large as well for the lower volume secondary circuit of the oil pump.

The oil pump was designed to work with a 1" wide 5 row cooler from Yamaha. I have bumped the cooler up to a 12 row, but added the additional internal restriction of the cross flow-spiral tubes and the pressure of the circuit is the same.

And finally on the subject, I am sticking with the fact he should be running synthetic oil due to the turbo. The biggest issue will be the burning of petroleum based oil at the turbo lubrication point and degradation of the bearings within, especially at shut down.

Randy - RPM