Electrical: Bike won't start. 86.

[fintip]

The bike I just bought, but don't have in my hands yet, won't start. When you turn the key, no lights. I have been unable to find a definitive electrical troubleshooting thread on this site, so I figured this is as good a time as any to start trying to develop one. Here I'll start collecting resources while I'm waiting to actually get in front of the bike.

First off, get a wiring diagram for your bike (linked is one I cobbled together from Clymer's for the 86/87). (You can find yours at the end of the clymer's book here.)

How to use a wiring diagram:
Clymer Manuals Tech Tips Electrical Troubleshooting Part 1 Motorcycle ATV Wiring Diagram How To

Those two things out of the way, my symptoms, according to andyb, indicate a "dead battery, bad ignition switch, or a major wiring fault".

...Start with the easy one, electrical.

Turn the key on.  Does the headlight, taillight, and dash light up?
-Some lights on, some lights off:  You've got power, but some burned bulbs, a blown fuse, or faulty wiring someplace.
-No lights on:  You've got either a dead battery, a bad ignition switch, or a major wiring fault (no ground from battery, for example).
-All lights on:  Battery may be weak, but it's working somewhat.

Further, you should hear the fuel pump click a few times, if your model has one.  More on that in a bit.

Put the sidestand switch in the up position, and put the bike into neutral.  There's a switch on the sidestand which prevents the bike from running with it down and in gear.  Also there's a switch on the clutch lever, which bypasses this if it's pulled in.  Set the killswitch to the RUN position.  Press starter button, and you get?
-Nothing at all:  Your starter button is not functioning, or you have a short someplace.
-Both red lamps on the dash come on, headlight may go out, but no sound:  Battery is too weak, starter solenoid is crapped out, or there's faulty wiring (a high resistance point someplace, like a loose/corroded ground connection).
-Click or clicking noises from the bike, dash lights in red:  Weak battery, possible starter solenoid, possible starter broken, possible bad wiring.
-Turns over and then stops hard:  Big problem in the motor or trans.  Something expensive probably broke.
-Turns over and over but won't catch:  Well, at least that much worked.  Don't sit on the starter button for more than 10s or so, you'll overheat it, needlessly wear things (you don't have much oil pressure during this time), and you'll drain the battery.

Ok, so it's cranking but that's all.  The last thing to check is to pull a plug, the two outside plugs are easiest to access (#1 and #4).  Pull one out and see what it looks like.  If it's filthy, odds are they all are.  Replace them.  If it's oily, pull them all and compare them.. one being oily means a problem on that cylinder, all of them can mean that the motor is sucking oil from the breather or there's worn rings or valve seals.  A damaged/smashed plug is a sign of expensive problems within the motor.  Four smashed plugs means you should start crying now.  Plugs that have had metal apparently burned away is a sign of incredible detonation at some point, so be prepared to troubleshoot some running issues.

Next, while wearing semi-heavy gloves that are DRY (or rubber, or using a non-conductive tool), hold the plug's ground strap (the bent bit that pokes out from the metal where the threads are), hold that against something metal, like the engine (has to be a shiny metal area, not painted/powdercoated... in a pinch, the top of the head nuts will work, they're shaped like little hexagonal helmets and will be right next to the plug), and crank the motor over.  You should see a spark, thus the clever name "spark plugs".  Please note, it's entirely possible to kill yourself doing this.  If everything decided to work, the air is going to pump fuel-enriched air at your face and you're holding an ignition source.  You can also get a rather nasty shock, which will make your hair fall out, stop your heart, give you a hell of a jolt, cause impotence, and the women will laugh at you.  You've been warned, be careful doing this.  A safer way is to grab another plug and use it for this test, leaving the original one in the head so you don't blow an explosive mixture at your face while holding an ignition source.  Meh, I'm still alive*.

-No spark at the plug:  You sure you checked the killswitch, right?  Then take a look into the coils themselves, and the wiring to them, including their mounting as they are grounded through it.  Your CDI may have crapped out, but be damned sure about it before you start spending money, as they're pricy and usually non-returnable...worse, if there's something wrong that causes them to fry, you may fry your new one in short order if the problem isn't fixed first.
-Wimpy orange spark at the plug:  battery may be a bit weak, but should have worked.
-Intermittent blue spark:  Good.  Carry on.

At this point you can pretty much rule out the ignition side of things.  It's possible that the timing plate is somehow worn in a ridiculous way and the timing is off by about thirty feet, but it's not likely.  Also poltergeists could be possessing your bike: consider selling it and getting a a priest to ensure you're not also possessed.  Making snide comments that your wife is possessed in her hearing may cause a bloodier (but no less deadlier) episode than described above.

Another resource I like going back to is Dan's Motorcycle page. He has this to say on a non-starting bike:

If you bike won't start the first thing to check is the battery. Is it in good condition and fully charged ? See the Battery Page. If the battery tests good and the solenoid clicks at you, the solenoid might be corroded inside. To check, bypass the it. A real down and dirty way is to just connect the two big posts on the solenoid with a (OLD) screwdriver. There will be lots of sparks so have a good Fire Extinguisher handy. If nothing happens when you do this, the starter wires are broken or corroded, the starter is dead, or the starter is not grounded right.

Try bypassing the everything. Hook a heavy jumper cable straight from the battery to the starter. If nothing happens, most likely the starters dead. You can also run a voltage drop test, to test the starter cables. See the Electrical tests page. If the starter works when you jumper the two terminals then you need a new solenoid. If the starter works and the solenoid does not click, the solenoid might be dead or it might be that the starter button is corroded and not making good ground or the wire going to the button may be broken.

Sometimes there is a fuse in the starter system, be sure to check it. Also, on new bikes, big brother has now put in all kinds of "Safety" switches to protect us from ourselves. I don't particularly like them, however, I do have at least one rather vivid memory of trying to turn left with the side stand of my Norton down ! Anyway, check all those switches before you go and replace starters, solenoids, etc. They are usually on the clutch lever, side stand, and neutral switch. Older bikes don't have these "Helper" switches so their wiring is a bit simpler.

Lots of people have already pointed out that my problem could very well be a battery, even though the PO claims it is good and has charged it, and the charger puts it on 'float' mode. FJ's are hard on batteries, and a huge number of problems are caused by bad batteries that aren't quite dead.

Dan has this to say about batteries, if you want a little less mystery and to 'get' why your battery really is bad, in spite of your 12.5 volt reading:

It's a funny thing, you can have a battery that reads 12.5 volts on a volt meter, but still will not light a small light bulb. Volts only tell you part of the story. The acid in the battery must be good. The Specific Gravity must be around 1.26 to 1.28 (in a fully charged battery) and you measure this with a hydrometer. The only trouble is this... there just isn't enough fluid in most motorcycle battery's to test with a big auto hydrometer. You must use one of the cheapy, small, 5 ball, pencil types. Oh well, at least they work and between the two you will have the whole story.

I once worked in a shop that was responsible for a fleet of about 120 trucks and cars. Part of my job was making sure the batteries were up to snuff on all those vehicles. I did a lot of battery charging, battery changing, checking fluid levels, checking voltages, and the like. I found that a battery could have a good volt reading and be bad. It could also have the right hydrometer reading and be bad. You needed to check both. Even with BOTH volts and hydrometer readings good, I had one or two that just plain would not crank. Put a new battery in and problem solved. Perhaps they were sulfated badly. I could not tell as the cases were all black. This was quite rare. One or two out of hundreds and hundreds.

I'm not really looking for any replies right now, though you are welcome to add to this thread anything worth adding. I'll start posting here about what happens when I finally see the bike in person, though, just putting everything in one place both for myself and to help others.

[fintip]

I find looking at a minimal wiring diagram (generic) helps me to think a little more clearly about the bigger picture.

[fintip]

I have put together two more images to help:

One, I have hand-colored most of the relevant pathways on my wiring diagram, making it much easier to look at in general, and easier to identify wire color at a glance: http://imageshack.us/a/img694/6427/8687wiringdiagrambigcol.png

Second, I cobbled together some images from a supplement to the Yamaha Workshop manual and came up with a visual reference for the various components:
http://imageshack.us/a/img35/746/electricalcomponents.png

One thing I can't find on this visual: The "Relay Unit" shown on the wiring diagram, top and center. What is a 'relay unit'? Can I run wires through it to bypass the various relays? Where is this plugged in?

The supplement is available in the 'files' section (two PDF's, one odd pages, one even pages). It is listed as the actual manual, which is a mistake. In that supplement, several pages of wire routing are shown, giving further visual/spatial information to assist you--given how many pages of this there are, I won't post that here, but you can find it in the relevant PDF if necessary.

[fj11.5]

at a guess, I would say the relay unit is the one behind the upper fairing , left side , about headlight level , you may be able to bypass it, , has the flasher unit, a start relay, and some other such devices I can't remember this early in the day 

[fintip]

Another great video for the most primary part of the electrical system:
How to diagnose and recognise starter motor problems

This will teach you what you need to know to test the solenoid and starter motor (both of which my PO claims to have had a mechanic replace, to no avail). If the starter motor turns, you know the engine isn't seized, and unless seized will help you diagnose battery quality. However, even if the starter motor spins at full strength, that won't start an engine if no power is getting to the key, then the fusebox, and then the TCI, and through it to the coils. (The key can be bypassed to simplify the troubleshooting process.) Since my bike has no lights when it comes on, we can assume power isn't getting to the fusebox, from which power then flows to the dash--or that a fuse is blown, of course, which should be the first thing you check (not VISUALLY, but with a multimeter--sometimes a fuse looks fine, but is actually not flowing current. Know from experience...).

So, to make it clear... For power to go to the coils, it:

1. Starts at the battery.
2. Goes through a connecter and then straight to the main fuse. (Red Wire)
3. Leaves the main fuse, when it is intact, and goes straight to the key/main switch. (Red Wire)
4. Leaves the key via the Brown Wire when the key is turned 'on' and it is functioning correctly.
5. Arrives to the Ignition fuse
6. Leaves the Ignition fuse, when it is functioning properly, and goes along a Red/White wire.
7. Arrives at the Engine Kill Switch on the right hand side.
8. Leaves the Engine Kill Switch via a Red/White wire and arrives at the TCI/Ignitor Unit.*
9. Leaves the TCI via a Green Wire and an Orange Wire, arriving at connectors which plug into the coils
10. Leaves the coils and go straight to the spark plugs.

It is noteworthy that the TCI has a Black and White Wire that plugs into the sidestand relay (and so into the whole 'relay' system? I do not know the safety relays all well enough to comment on this yet.)

Re: FJ11.5, thanks. Do you know how it functions? I see a bunch of relays feeding into it, but I can't figure out exactly what its purpose is.

[fj11.5]

just to confirm were on the same page, , your talking about the 41r-71   starting circuit cut - off relay , or on later models its 2uj-81950-00 on the right side ..  , start switch / starter relay ,, horn? , flasher unit , I think that's it but not sure  , , i have an intermittently dodgy wire going to this unit from the start switch, had the fairing off a few times trying to trace it with a test light , to no avail , so I have a switch tucked next to the seat connected to earth and going to the starter relay ,, next time the fairing is off ill cut and paste new wires in

[aviationfred]

I came across this Wiring diagram on EBay. Might be worth a look.

Fred

http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-FJ1100-FJ1200-FJ-LARGE-COLOUR-WIRING-DIAGRAMS-/360320282747?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item53e4c3307b#ht_2484wt_934

[fintip]

Don't ship to the US, and WOWZERS that's expensive for a laminated piece of paper. I think I'd rather just do it myself and stop by Kinko's (*now known as FedEx Office). It does look VERY pretty, though, nicest wiring diagram I've ever seen. I think I'll just keep slowly filling in this open source version so there's one for the community, though, anyways. I'm at least a third done at this point, and I'll learn a lot in the process.

FJ11.5: If you look at the wiring diagram I posted (either the colored one in the last few posts or the black and white on in the first post), you will see a ractangle labled "relay unit" which is to the left of the rectangle labeled "ignitor unit" (ignitor unit being the TCI). I haven't heard of some kind of 'relay unit' before, and don't see it visually listed on the electrical components pages I posted recently. I don't know what numbers you are referring to (are those microfiche part reference numbers?).

Is there any chance that this thing is related to my problems?

Anyone have a good link to a COMPREHENSIVE overview of the safety switches/relays on the bike, or advice on bypassing all of them temporarily or permanently?

As a course of action:

After confirming the starter motor works and putting in a good battery, and testing continuity between the fusebox and the coils, would an effective 'hotwire' be to run wires straight from the battery into the fusebox (temporarily) and then put a screwdriver across the posts of the solenoid?

That should work if the problem is after the battery and before the fuses, which is what I suspect, correct? This should also bypass all of the safety switches, perhaps? (Though the sidestand switch, at least, is wired directly into the TCI; how does that work? It's not keeping it from being grounded, as it has a straight ground connection via the black wire. Would pulling that black and white wire and touching it to the frame to bypass the safety switches? A guess, would love to have someone confirm or deny this.)(Edit: There is also a red/white wire that goes directly from the mysterious relay unit into the coils, and I'm sure that would need to be bypassed to skip all the safety switches. I have colored these into my latest version of the wiring diagram, here.)

[fj11.5]

numbers are actual part numbers, and the unit is g in your first post,  first pic

[fintip]

Sorry, "unit G"?

I'll go look up the part number.

Edit: Item G here? The "starting circuit cutoff relay"? Is that the same as item 6, the "Relay Assembly"?

[fj11.5]

could just be a 6 , am only using a phone after all 

[movenon]

A comment on the battery. This summer I ordered a new sealed battery and installed it. NO start...... Voltage was OK.... It would not put enough current out to turn the starter.  It was defective. The dealer told me "that it happens".... They just sent me a new one and good as new. If you don't want to get another new battery then I might suggest try to jumper from a known good battery to start with. They make some compact jumper cables for the ATV/Motorcycle use. Not expensive and could be used for "jumpering" for other testing purposes.
The Seattle area has a little mositure so check the connections closely. If you try some jumper cables the I would attach the ground directly to the engine case. Good luck .

[fintip]

Those batteries, eh? Sounds like they can be tricky. I plan on, as someone else in this forum suggested, just buying a battery and bringing it over with me. (I also am planning on bringing a pair of jumped cables.)

Metal wire brush and silicone grease will be coming with me as well. 

Can anyone comment on the theory I wrote above?

As a course of action:

After confirming the starter motor works and putting in a good battery, and testing continuity between the fusebox and the coils, would an effective 'hotwire' be to run wires straight from the battery into the fusebox (temporarily) and then put a screwdriver across the posts of the solenoid?

That should work if the problem is after the battery and before the fuses, which is what I suspect, correct? This should also bypass all of the safety switches, perhaps? (Though the sidestand switch, at least, is wired directly into the TCI; how does that work? It's not keeping it from being grounded, as it has a straight ground connection via the black wire. Would pulling that black and white wire and touching it to the frame to bypass the safety switches? A guess, would love to have someone confirm or deny this.)(Edit: There is also a red/white wire that goes directly from the mysterious relay unit into the coils, and I'm sure that would need to be bypassed to skip all the safety switches. I have colored these into my latest version of the wiring diagram, here.)[/qupte]

[Pat Conlon]

You are making it complicated and it's giving me a headache.
A faulty side stand switch is common. All you need to do is to isolate the switch from the circuit. Follow the 2 wires from the side stand switch to the plug connector located on the left side, unplug the connector and on the engine side of the connector, jump the 2 male prongs with a piece of wire and 2 spade connectors.

[I make oil]

You are making it complicated and it's giving me a headache.
A faulty side stand switch is common. All you need to do is to isolate the switch from the circuit. Follow the 2 wires from the side stand switch to the plug connector located on the left side, unplug the connector and on the engine side of the connector, jump the 2 male prongs with a piece of wire and 2 spade connectors.

Direct and to the point.  Don't over complicate it, it's just a switch.  Open or Closed.  If it doesn't work one way try the other.