Clutch issue?

[thaduke2003]

So my bike since I got it has been a pain about engaging 2nd gear (will often not engage)- I was thinking it was just me failing to kick the shifter hard enough (shifter has a little play, but nothing out of line). I've now had 3 others ride it, and they all have had the same issue. Also, after the bike gets hot, it will slip when I upshift at higher RPMs. I'm starting to think the clutch is on the way out. 32K miles, so that sounds plausible.

What all parts will I need to do it right? Also, is there a good write-up on clutch replacement on here, or elsewhere? I have the OE FSM, and it's about 1% helpful for this job   Also, anything I should do at the same time, beyond bleeding the MC? Or cheap/easy mods that might help? Lastly, are there any specialty tools I might need for the job? I have a solid toolset, but I know sometimes you need a special jobbie for certain work- thanks! Mark W.

P.S. bike is a commuter first and a toy a distant 2nd- it will see SOME stop and go traffic, so no racey stuff, please Mark W.

[SlowOldGuy]

Sounds like you have the dreaded bent shift fork for 2nd gear.  Probably worn out dogs and windows on the gears also.

The good news is it's probably not the clutch.  :-(

Search for the 2nd gear fix.

DavidR.

[thaduke2003]

Would that explain the slippage at higher RPM's in 3 and 4, though? Mark W.

[thaduke2003]

I searched it- it's not so much popping out as just not engaging when I shift. As in, I pull in clutch lever, kick up, and it sticks in neutral. I've ridden many bikes over the years, but am NOT that great of a rider, but I've never had such an issue before. Also, sometimes neutral is harder to find. Could this be related to my crappy left foot, or would it be a hardware issue? Thanks- Mark W.

[Pat Conlon]

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.msg14307#msg14307

[andyb]

Possible culprits that I can think of off the top of my head:

-It's not going into second because the clutch is failing to disengage properly.  Other symptoms would be a massive clunk going into first at a stoplight, rather than a normal clunk.  More tellingly, the clutch would not really disengage until the lever is way back near the grip.  Easy fix, bleed the system, new fluid, and most likely a rebuild kit for the slave.

-It's slipping at high revs because the diaphram spring is a stupid design and has gone from mostly enough to not quite enough clamping force on the clutch  pack.  Cheapish fix, buy a new spring and use it with the old spring doubled, or use it alone.  Better still, a coil spring conversion.   This doesn't explain why second is hard to hit, though.  Oh, and and if this post doesn't answer basically anything you wanted to know about making the clutch physically work better, you're beyond help.  

-It's slipping because the pack is shot, measuring would prove it easily enough.  Replace the clutch fibers, job done.  Doesn't explain second gear not wanting to go in unless possibly there's warped steels in there as well.  The bike will buck and be un-smooth under hard launches from a stop (WOT and sliding the clutch).

-It's not going into second because that shift fork is bent.  Bent the opposite direction than usual?  Dunno, but anything's possible.  Also possible is the shift drum has worn and isn't moving the fork fast/far/well enough to get things to go in nicely.

-Crappy shifting technique.  you're using the clutch again why?    Well, I'll admiit, even I tend to use it a little, usually on 1-2 shifts so that I don't get lazy and cause more wear than I need to.  

-Crappy shifter leverage.  If the shift lever is adjusted to be really low because you have big feet or bad ankles, you may screw up the angles involved and lose a bunch of pushing force, making shifts harder than they need to be.  While you're at it, how much slop is in that linkage?  That's a really common culprit.  At one point I ran into this myself, my upshifts were kinda meh but my downshifts were really crap... the lever was hitting the kickstand on the downswing and not getting full travel, plus the strange angle meant less leverage on upshifts.  Raised the lever to a more upright position and things improved hugely.

-Binding up on the shift star, bent selectors, burrs, other stuff in that vein.  Possible but not really all that likely.  If someone was in there and put in a heavier spring and/or detent arm (like in this kit, it's possible that they didn't do it well and it wore badly or something.  With a prior owner, you never really can tell, yeah?

-How old and what kind of oil?  Doesn't make sense to me, but those who pay $50 for oil changes insist the bike shifts smoother afterwards.  Haven't seen that effect personally though.


Honest guess is that there's a mixture of several of these.  Check the linkage out first, as it's quite easy--just make  sure it doesn't have a truckload of slop and that the angle formed by the joint nearest the motor is pretty close to a 90 degree angle.  A quick look at the clutch fluid will tell you if that's needing bled/replaced, and looking at the clutch slave will tell you if that needs a rebuild.  The clutch slipping in upper gears, probably right around 6-7500 revs? is unrelated to the shifting, more spring pressure will likely fix it, but measure the clutch pack to ensure it's not too worn while you're in there.  (And if it is worn, pull the oil pan and check the oil pickup screen, your bearings and head will thank you.)  And atop it all, I'd wager that it does it the worst when you're a little lazy on the shifting.  

All pretty easily fixable stuff, and not horribly expensive, unless there's internal damage, but what you describe isn't the typical version of damage.


Edit:  While you were posting, Pat decided that he didn't want to retype all of that, and linked to the clutch guide.  Well so did I, nyah. 

[Mark Olson]

its an 85 so you have the weak shift forks.

32k is a weak clutch spring.

order the gasket from rpm and get a extra fiber disc and clutch spring as well.

change your oil to a motorcycle specific oil.

read the clutch section pat and andy talked about.

go easy on the 2nd gear shifts till it starts popping out of gear. then split the cases and change all the forks
if you are lucky this could be years away.

[Dan Filetti]

Folks are sooo convinced that the shift forks are bent.  I'm not.  Yes it's possible, and the '85 is prone to it, but everything you described as symptoms to me, seems to be potentially explainable without it being the dreaded 2nd gear issue. 

Slipping:  wrong oil, lack of the second clutch spring.
Difficulty Getting into Gear: This could easily be air in the line/ the slave failing.

Why do we always jump to the worst case scenario?

Reminds me of a Monty Python scene:

Monty Python's sex-ed3.mpg

Dan

[thaduke2003]

^ Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Bled the clutch, problem is 90% gone. Adjusted the shifter, problem is 99% gone. Now the loose nut on the seat accounts for the remaining 1% of the problem Thanks for all the help guys, but I have to agree with Dan- be careful about jumping to nuclear winter when you see a snowflake Mark W.

[SlowOldGuy]

Well, you have to provide all the info otherwise we are working with only what you are able to communicate.  To me, all your problems seemed to be related to 2nd gear since you didn't mention any problem in other gears.

Also, one FJ owner has over 250,000 miles on his original clutch, so the FJ clutch is fairly stout when not abused.  It's identical to the early R1 clutch.  And 32000 miles is nothing to an FJ.

Sorry for the missed diagnosis.  Next time try a little basic maintenance before panicking.

DavidR.

[andyb]

Shifting problems really are that common.  Then again, weak clutches are also a problem.  And leaking clutch slaves account for why so many FJ's don't have a belly pan anymore.

Bleeding and adjusting stuff should be done yearly or so, but usually isn't. 

[oldktmdude]

  It's still very likely that you have the beginnings of the second gear problem. Having trouble shifting into second gear and not having problems in any other gear, seems to point this out. This does not mean that second is about to fail but indicates that there maybe some slight bending of the shift fork or wear on the second gear engagement lugs or both. With normal shifting and normal throttle use it could last for years. Well done on solving your problems by performing a couple of simple procedures.  regards, Pete.

[Dan Filetti]

Bleeding <snip> should be done yearly or so, but usually isn't.  

Andy-

I wanted to drill into this statement of yours a bit if I may.

A buddy of mine just fire up his R6 for the first time since fall. He said his brakes 'needing bleeding', so I walked him through bleeding his brakes.  Easy-peasy, in 30 mins, he had rock hard brakes again.

My point back to him was that brakes, and hydraulic clutches for that matter, were closed systems, as in, if they are working properly, and there are no leaks, they should not require any re-bleeding.  

Now, I did say it's a good idea to replace the fluids every couple/ few years, and told him how to do that, again, easy, but in my mind, he still had a systemic problem, now.  Brakes don't go soft over 5 months, without there being a problem.  I predicted that his brakes will be mushy again soon enough.  I told him he likely only treated the symptom, but not the cause; a leak in the system, small and slow as it may be.

Your statement above seems to indicate that systems are inherently leaky, or that at least, routine bleeding is required for some reason.  In my mind, if you replace the fluids, every few years, and there are no leaks in the system, there should be no reason to have to bleed the system periodically.  Would you mind telling me why/ if you think otherwise?

Thanks,

Dan

[SlowOldGuy]

Once again,

My DOT 5 Story,
Back in the mid-'80s I filled my brakes with DOT 5 fluid.  I DIDN'T TOUCH the brakes for 14 years after that and they worked well year after year.  No bleeding, no flushing, no topping off, NOTHING!

The only reason I finally changed the fluid was when I upgraded the front end to a  17" wheel and installed monoblocks.  DOT 5 went back in about '01 and I haven't touched it since.

Yeah, it's a sealed system.

DavidR.

[Dan Filetti]

Once again,

My DOT 5 Story,
Back in the mid-'80s I filled my brakes with DOT 5 fluid.  I DIDN'T TOUCH the brakes for 14 years after that and they worked well year after year.  No bleeding, no flushing, no topping off, NOTHING!

The only reason I finally changed the fluid was when I upgraded the front end to a  17" wheel and installed monoblocks.  DOT 5 went back in about '01 and I haven't touched it since.

Yeah, it's a sealed system.

DavidR.

Oh you and your DOT5...  Hell David, think of it this way.  Motorcycling is inherently dangerous.  This includes the 'danger' of ruining your paint with splashed DOT 3/4.  You and your paint-safe DOT5 are like riding a 'boring Honda' that does everything so well, but 'does not inspire' the Journo and therefore does not win the shoot-out.