State Of The Union Address

[axiom-r]

Dan, that is some funny shit.  Listen, I apologize that I "rung the bell". I thought about the comment and I chose to include it because they are giving him such a hard time and it does not make sense to me.  In my mind it was not a straight up accusation as much as a "what about this?" or "could this be it?".  Anyway I appreciate the reminder that that is not a constructive path to go down in any circumstance. We are off into new territory having the first president of color and when they are off the record or when amongst friends you hear racist comments sometimes from those that are dissatisfied with the Presidents job.....  I'll apologize for the remark again as it may have been just a step too far and you make excellent points about the nature of raising the issue. I do stand by my guns that there is some validity in every perspective... even the ones that make us cringe...

Ed- I have to say that your hard line view and comments sort of drew me in on this thread..... for me, every issue has become shades of grey there are no absolutes.  You can hardly believe the media these days as everything is "spun" to one perspective or the other.  The truth is in there somewhere but only a thread of it. Case in point: Dan corrected me on the Clinton Surplus, I looked deeper and found out- he's right!! the Surplus talk (which is all over the news and you can still find on Google today) is not  exactly the truth - its a spin.  Point to you Dan.

The harder the issue is the more perspectives there are and the more perspectives there are the more difficult it will be to find the truth.  We can have convictions but most of the time they are emotionally based and not factual or always rational.  I hate to hear some one say out loud "the President is trying to destroy the country" - that is simply false like the "Obama is Muslim" and "not a citizen" talk.  True would be: "I don't agree with what the President is doing".  The president wants a vibrant America just like every republican or any other American. He just does not share your view of how to get there.

The unsustainable economic track that resulted in the the recent recession has roots that go back to Reagan's recovery out of the Cater era.  Easing up the cost of money and spending beyond our means started there.  The idea that we can consume without earning.  Bush II releasing the financial institutions from regulatory oversight was like letting the dogs off the leash and the little guy took it in the ass. To this day, there are no prosecutions on Wall St. and all John Corzine had to do was publicly apologize.... The courts should be able force a write down on mortgages that were predatory in nature and sold a bunch of times as credit default swaps in mortgage backed securities - THE BANKS RIPPED US OFF.  Yeah President Obama is spending way beyond what anyone wanted to see - but in my eyes this is the pendulum swinging the other way.  He shifted the country's priorities and you don't agree with that. But, if we stop spending on wars and foreign economic support, stop subsidizing the wildly profitable oil companies and reform many other good ole boy lobbyist bought government expenses the deficit will diminish faster than we think.

I hope that we can reduce the swing of the pendulum and get back to a smoother ride with fewer extremes. But it seems that the laws of entropy are at work and as time goes on we are going to be in for a steadily increasing level of chaos and drama....  

The worst of it to me is the loss of our individual constitutional rights.  That is what American freedom is founded on; individual rights. Neither party has stood up sufficiently to protect them.  Nobody even said a peep as our right to a speedy trial and judgement by a jury of our peers was ELIMINATED.  Corporate charters were one of the founding father's greatest concerns and we have a government that is literally run on corporate sponsorship.  We have got to get the money out of politics if we want to restore an actual democracy - but that would mean that the people would make decisions for the people and the rich and powerful fear that beyond all else...

Lets keep it foremost in our minds that we are all from the same great country and all on the same team!  I appreciate this discussion!

[Dan Filetti]

The unsustainable economic track that resulted in the the recent recession has roots that go back to Reagan's recovery out of the Cater era.  Easing up the cost of money and spending beyond our means started there.  

We do indeed live together in a great country, but I must again take issue with the above statement. 

Those roots go much farther back: much.  First the US has ALWAYS had national Debt, Washington took on debt to pay for the cost of the Revolutionary War. His Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton devised a funding system whereby the the debt was to be paid off by 1840 -it never happened.  The debt has NEVER been zero, or a surplus, never.  The best we can hope for is a small number of presidents (3?) that actually lowered it marginally.  Otherwise, it has always grown. 

To your point, the cause of the current recession stems directly from the precipitous fall in real estate values, which had been tied up in the credit default swaps/ derivatives/ leveraged monies way too far out -probably conservatives -I grant you.  But when Fanny and Freddy were brow-beaten into making home loans to people who had no business getting them, this smacks of a liberal "everyone should have a home" crap. 

Also, the concept of 'predatory lending' seems like a liberal concept too.  Think about it, were people FORCED to take these loans?  NO!  It was personal greed that had them do it.  It'd be like blaming the gun manufacturers because one man shot another with one of their guns -absurd. 

Many/ most of us were smart about it.  I could easily have bought 2-3 times the house I actually did, but I thought about how much I could actually afford to pay for a house, and I spent that.  I must tell you -it was far less than what the bank was willing to loan me.  Was I being "preyed upon" being offered more money than I would be happy to have to cough up every month? No.  Could I have borrowed that larger amount and eaten mac and cheese, and never go on vacation, and been OK? yes.  I was simply not willing to be house-poor. 

The problem occurred when people/ individuals wanted it all, the big house, all the toys, the fancy cars, the vacations, despite not actually being able to afford it... these jerks spent like a drunken sailors (like our president) ran up personal debt to more than $50 Trillion, and setup the fall.  Yes, it was based on the belief that house prices would continue to increase, but there was no guarantee of that.   

When unemployment began to rise, and house prices drop, default rates jumped up much faster than anyone counted on, and the CDS's began to be called in, and there was not enough to actually cover it -oops.  I think we can agree that it was the greed of the jerks, coupled with the lack of insight on the part of the bankers that all hell could go wrong, that caused it. 

If people had simply not spent more than they could afford, it would have been a much smaller (non-existent?) problem and the derivatives would likely not have been too far leveraged to cover the defaults.  In that same theme, we NEVER should have bailed out the banks/ insurance companies/ auto-makers, they took the same sort of risk that individuals had, they should have been allowed to fail, as did the individuals.

The democrats seem to value government intervention ("stop the greedy bankers") over personal responsibility ("don't borrow too much: idiot").  The opposite can be said for the republicans.  Because this is how I live my life, I generally stand with the Republicans: the concepts of smaller government, less intrusion, less spending (hopefully), and a real value in personal responsibility resonate with me. 

That's enough...

Dan

[bugboy]

All I know for sure is,,,,, we're fucked!  Good thing that 12-21-2012 is going to get rid of all these economic/political problems.  All we will have to worry about is keeping the zombie hordes at bay and deciding who we should kill and eat.




Oh yeah,,,,, and looking for parts for mods on our FJ's.

Kurt

[Klavdy]

Every time I go to the US, I make damn sure I'm covered to a minimum of U.S $25 million in medical /personal effects etc insurance with no excess coz, I fall off,crash, run into things.
I've got form you know.
As an example,the infamous "Pinecone" incident led to a series of dunning letters sent from a bunch of shysters based in Israel, representing the Medical centre that had already been paid.
Now if you Seppos come a gutser over there and you are not covered, it can ruin you.

I'm writing this from a hospital room, it's a beauty room too, ensuite, view, cable T.V and it's not going to directly cost me, it's already been paid for,part of the 38 cents in every dollar I pay in tax.
If you blokes were here, you'd get the same deal, visiting or not.

Oh, yeah, best tell you why I'm in hospital,last week I thought I was getting a Malaria attack,aches, 106 fever, cold sweats,balls ache,weird flushes.
Of course I did what any self respecting bloke would do by completely ignoring it until forced to see the local Q.L.D quack.

Straight in, no waiting at the local public hospital where a series of Cat scans, blood tests etc revealed Malaria combined with a nicely burst appendix.
None of this treatment will cost me,as in they won't present me with a bill.
It's already been paid for.
Pretty sweet deal, eh?
Why are some people in America so scared of this type of system?

[Arnie]

Klavdy,

Get better quick - Rally is coming

But I think a better question than yours is,  How have so many people that a universal health care system will benefit been convinced that its the work of the devil, UNAmerican, and a Communist plot to steal their soul?

Arnie

[The General]

Oh, yeah, best tell you why I'm in hospital,last week I thought I was getting a Malaria attack,aches, 106 fever, cold sweats,balls ache,weird flushes.
Of course I did what any self respecting bloke would do by completely ignoring it until forced to see the local Q.L.D quack.

Klavdy......ummhh...    I`ve heard of these symptoms somewhere before on this forum.......a couple of months ago, I think some QLD Doc published how they cure it with some sort of antivanine.....you should really try the search button ......... oh yeah try page 3 of the Downunder Rally..........Like most published faults on this forum, there`s a solution been documented already.................
"Uncle Kook here.
Can you get some time off work? Need you to be with me for major operation on the Sunshine Coast 11th of feb.  Doc reckons I`ve been bitten (downunder) by something that`s making my genitals swell. My heart races, Palpatations, Halucinary feelings of Gliding Grandeur, Voices in my head coaxing me to a firepit of uncontrollable gorging, drinking and slander.    Anti Vanine requires me to remain upright, wear protective gear and a pad. Specialists attending include Motopsycopaths along with my GP. Strife support system will be turned off Saturday evening.   Please be there."       

---(hope ya know what a GP is    ) Looking forward to administering your Anti Vanine!!   Doug

[craigo]

Straight in, no waiting at the local public hospital where a series of Cat scans, blood tests etc revealed Malaria combined with a nicely burst appendix.
None of this treatment will cost me,as in they won't present me with a bill.
It's already been paid for.
Pretty sweet deal, eh?
Why are some people in America so scared of this type of system?

It's for a couple of reasons.

#1, we don't like having the government in our lives.

#2, the insurance companies would never let it happen here, not the way you Aussies, Canada, and England run  their healthcare. And it looks like England is going broke.

#3, It's way over the top expensive. We have too much money invested in other things that you Aussies don't have to spend money on, trying to keep the free world free.  We US taxpayers have to keep our military spending up because countries like Japan, Australia, the EU would look pretty weak if the US was not there. How many aircraft carriers, nuke subs, B2 bombers, military bases in other countries do you guys support? That is some pricey hardware.
How much do you think your taxrate would go up if the US wasn't covering you guys and you had to pay for all this?

#4, We do have free health care here. Ask any illegal alien.

Get better soon,

CraigO

[Klavdy]

Why are some people in America so scared of this type of system?
That's the question.
Dunno how aircraft carriers, nuke subs, B2 bombers got in the mix.

[craigo]

Because it all costs money. The point is, how much more money in taxes would the average Aussie have to pay to keep their country safe? Can't have it both ways.

How much more would the average Aussie have to pay in taxes for all the aid the US taxpayer spends?

It's not that we are afraid, it's because it costs a fortune. And I for one am tired of paying for it.

CraigO

[terryk]

There are great public medical systems that are completely functional and paid for in Japan,Canada, England, Sweden, Taiwan, Australia, France and the list goes on. Those countries do manage the systems well and they are not going broke because of the system. The reason Americans are afraid of this is simple, ignorance and corporations sucking the life out of the country. Oh yeah, the Rich paying too little in taxes in also a substantial contributor as is the military inductrial complex draining an enormous amount of our tax wealth into weapons systems and large standing armies many of who are deployed in bases spread around the world. We have allowed the middle class to be diminished and soon destroyed so they can become peons to make wealth for others, the new feudal state. Sadly I see vast and significant amounts of violent social unrest coming to our country, and sooner than we think as the middle and lower classes wake up to find their pockets picked and their future stolen by liars and thieves who know no bounds to their greed and their evil.

[bugboy]

Sadly I see vast and significant amounts of violent social unrest coming to our country, and sooner than we think as the middle and lower classes wake up to find their pockets picked and their future stolen by liars and thieves who know no bounds to their greed and their evil.

I believe that the great majority of the American people lack the "cojones" for any sort of uprising. We may see some more "occupy" type stuff but not in great enough scale that the police/military can't put down or contain. There will be some groups protesting or taking more violent means of protest, but they will be quickly branded as extremists and radicals (maybe even terrorists) and be crushed. Remember Ruby Ridge? That was just a guy that wanted to be left alone and someone at BATF developed a "hardon" for him,,,,, his wife, his kids and his dog were killed. If a group is seen as a threat the government has no problems making up evidence to use as justification for it's actions.

To put down their Big Macs, stop looking at their iPhones and go outside to put themselves at risk is just too damn inconvenient for most.

I'm sure that the government and the wealthy power-brokers have given this some thought and they will come up with new and wonderful "pacifiers" for the masses. It may be new entertainment technologies, new drugs or a new "enemy" to put the blame on. Those with the power and money are not going to give it up easily and I'm sure they are/will be keeping a close eye on any "radicals".

[Klavdy]

What are you on about mate?
Aid from the U.S Taxpayer keeping Australia safe?
Safe from what?
An ill defined, vague general enemy?
We're good,'bout the only threat is mad Indonesian generals and we've told 'em we'll nuke Jakarta if they try any funny business.(Look up the ANZUS Treaty)
China:
The Red Dragon wants to trade,not wage war.
Our Defence Dept keeps fucking up though, everything from Joint Strike Fighters to Collins Class subs, we wont more than briefly mention the horrible rust bucket Troop Transports we bought off you,(HMAS Kanimbla & Manoora)
nor the stupid  airtanker/transport combo.

The Americans have cool firetrucks but, wish we had 'em.
I'd buy my own, drive around going WHOOOO

[craigo]

Regardless, Klavdy, the money is spent for it. How's that new US Marine base working for you over there? And why did the Aussie government need us to place one there?

And Terry, the UK is going broke trying to keep everyone in health care. And the type of health care offered here under Obamacare is not the same as in the counties you mentioned. More like the socialized healthcare of the former Soviet Union where the government decides who gets treatment for what ever malady. What we have now, you can tailor your healthcare to your own needs, not some broad spectrum one size fits all. And for Obama forcing it on us, with fines and penalties, is just ridiculousness.

I don't know about you, but I don't want the government in my healthcare (or much of any aspect of my life) and I take the personal responsibility for my own.

CraigO

[Pat Conlon]

Hey Klavdy, Malaria and a burst appendix? That is some serious shit amigo. Peritonitis kills and coupled with the malaria bug? Oh boy.

Imagining what you are going thru, I will forgive you for stirring up the shit (you rascal)

I am not against universal health care per se, but I see 3 main issues

1) Is it appropriate for our government to 'command' that people have either a) private insurance or b) contribute into a nationwide system?  This issue is currently before the US Supreme Court.

2) Inequity of the fiscal impact: 2010 US Census data shows that Less than 60% of the population in America pay income taxes. Of that 60%, 20% already have private health care coverage (thus exempt) which leaves a disproportional (small) number of taxpayers who will pay into the system.

3) Before America can be successful in a nationwide health care system, serious tort reform is needed. In fact it is long over due.
My dad was a dentist. A damn good dentist. A USC trained graduate. He loved his work. Always on call Saturdays and Sundays. He could never get away for vacations, anyhoo...At the end of his 45 year practice he could not afford his malpractice insurance premiums.
The assfuck lawyers in America are ruining everything...Filing bogus lawsuits only for posturing for out of court settlements.

This affects all areas of our economy: housing, employment, health care, manufacturing, etc, etc.

Serious Tort Reform is needed NOW!

Other countries do not have this problem ..... Take care amigo!   It's a sunny 75* and I'm going for a ride...   Fr Paddy.

[axiom-r]

To your point, the cause of the current recession stems directly from the precipitous fall in real estate values, which had been tied up in the credit default swaps/ derivatives/ leveraged monies way too far out -probably conservatives -I grant you.  But when Fanny and Freddy were brow-beaten into making home loans to people who had no business getting them, this smacks of a liberal "everyone should have a home" crap. 

Also, the concept of 'predatory lending' seems like a liberal concept too.  Think about it, were people FORCED to take these loans?  NO!  It was personal greed that had them do it.  It'd be like blaming the gun manufacturers because one man shot another with one of their guns -absurd. 

Many/ most of us were smart about it.  I could easily have bought 2-3 times the house I actually did, but I thought about how much I could actually afford to pay for a house, and I spent that.  I must tell you -it was far less than what the bank was willing to loan me.  Was I being "preyed upon" being offered more money than I would be happy to have to cough up every month? No.  Could I have borrowed that larger amount and eaten mac and cheese, and never go on vacation, and been OK? yes.  I was simply not willing to be house-poor. 

The problem occurred when people/ individuals wanted it all, the big house, all the toys, the fancy cars, the vacations, despite not actually being able to afford it... these jerks spent like a drunken sailors (like our president) ran up personal debt to more than $50 Trillion, and setup the fall.  Yes, it was based on the belief that house prices would continue to increase, but there was no guarantee of that.   

When unemployment began to rise, and house prices drop, default rates jumped up much faster than anyone counted on, and the CDS's began to be called in, and there was not enough to actually cover it -oops.  I think we can agree that it was the greed of the jerks, coupled with the lack of insight on the part of the bankers that all hell could go wrong, that caused it. 

If people had simply not spent more than they could afford, it would have been a much smaller (non-existent?) problem and the derivatives would likely not have been too far leveraged to cover the defaults.  In that same theme, we NEVER should have bailed out the banks/ insurance companies/ auto-makers, they took the same sort of risk that individuals had, they should have been allowed to fail, as did the individuals.

The democrats seem to value government intervention ("stop the greedy bankers") over personal responsibility ("don't borrow too much: idiot").  The opposite can be said for the republicans.  Because this is how I live my life, I generally stand with the Republicans: the concepts of smaller government, less intrusion, less spending (hopefully), and a real value in personal responsibility resonate with me. 

That's enough...

Dan

Dan,

I think it is easy to understand that an individual cannot be trusted not to reach for a better place in life if it is being waved in front of them for the taking...  this is why the banks are complicit and responsible for the real estate crash.  Yeah, people bit off more than they could chew but they were trained to do so in this "consumer economy" trained to "just buy it" - and for most it was an offer the could not refuse - debt slavery.  To take any layer of responsibility away from the banks is just startling.  If you wave a juicy carrot in front of a rabbit the rabbit is going to eat it - the nature of the rabbit is known.  It is evident that you cannot remove the hunger from the rabbit - we have to prevent the carrot from being waved in the first place.  The banks knew the people would eat up the loans - they knew they could not qualify for the loans - they made hundreds of thousands of loans anyway and profited outrageously.  The bankers are now sitting fat and have not been prosecuted, the wishful buyers (that took the loan they thought they would never have the chance of qualifying for) now have a foreclosure on their credit report.  The real estate goes back into the hands of the banks along with all the money they scraped off the people.  Freddie and Fanny? Yeah they were on the same list as Bank of America, Chase, Wells Fargo, Country Wide, CitiBank, and dozens of others.....

I have some friends that are in the mortgage business.  They kicked some serious ass and became millionaires owning five houses at one point.  While this was going on I was struggling in a job that was not paying very impressively.  My buddy tried to get me to come to work for him refinancing people and dealing new mortgages to buyers....  The profits that brokers were making were unbelievable - examples of brand new 21 year old mortgage brokers in the San Diego market making $20-30k a month on mortgages were the norm.   There was a frenzy - a glut at the trough - because the regulations and oversight were gone. The banks were taking these profits fully aware that they were putting unqualified buyers into homes. THAT is predatory.  The loans themselves were structured as interest only with balloon payments in 15 years- this kept the payments down making it all the more enticing - again predatory!  Then they were packaging these known bad loans into securities and selling them - that is fraud. 

You say the individual should have had restraint? But what about the American dream? Everybody owns a home?  These ideas and the consumerism mentality have been the American way since the 50's and our government changed our policies to prop up the economy and keep it going.  That the government rolled back regulations that had protected us nicely since the Great Depression and financial institutions suddenly (within a decade) go nuts and the economy crashes is no coincident. 

Of course, as an individual (a blue collar worker) if you think: "man the economy is great, I CAN get a loan, this is it! It's my time! I am going to be a home owner!!  I am realizing the American Dream!!".  Obviously and with no astonishment of any kind - we see those people line up to sign the papers.....you cannot put that on the people. They are seeing a chance to "make it".  That is an illusion created by the banks and is a mechanism that is entirely the banks chasing profit.  Preying on the ignorance of the masses and creating more slaves- slaves to the debt that they hold over them...

We will not have to settle this issue between us here fortunately.  Many of the State Attorney Generals are not accepting the settlement terms proposed by the Feds to wrap up the housing problem and the fraud perpetrated by the banks.  We are going to see an investigation before it is over and I think it's likely there will be some people prosecuted.

Yeah- we have no common ground on this one!

Cheers- tim