State Of The Union Address

[JMR]

....

Where is Jimmy Carter in that cartoon? I remember interest rates on cars, homes etc during that era. I also think back to the first Iraq war during Bush 1...that deficit does not appear that bad considering the cost of that war. Just something to consider as almost everybody was on board for that.

[grannyknot]

What is starting to really bother me is the total disrespect being shown for the highest office in our country. President Obama got elected and agree or disagree with his policy he deserves to be respected.  Look at Arizona Gov Jan Brewer wagging her finger in the Presidents face.... if she had done that to a sitting republican president she would be held indefinitely without being charged.  I am appalled at the republican blockage in congress. You don't shut down government because you are not getting your way - it seems they will do anything (even fuck up the country) to ensure that President Obama leaves office without accomplishing anything.  So venomous are the actions that to me it reeks of some deeper resentment towards him - like he was black or something.

Obama received a bag full of turds from W. and much of the increase in deficit is the clean up including both stimulus packages/bailouts which were already inked by the Bush Admin - he had no choice really but to go forward.  Are you really laying all the blame on him?  That seems rather one sided doesn't it? 

Clinton DID pay down the US deficit to ZERO and left office with a $200 billion dollar surplus in the Treasury- easily confirmed.

Pat you are right about the "Wars Galore"..... if we could stop the fear mongering for 10 seconds perhaps we could relax a bit and save some money.  These same fear tactics are costing us our basic constitutional rights. 

If the republicans want a republican president next term they better get in behind Ron Paul in order to swing the independent vote.  I am independent and I can tell you with utter certainty that I would never vote for Santorum, Romney or Gingrich.  I might vote for Ron Paul for a few reasons; one, the guy tells the truth and he does not accept lobbyist money nor a pension from the Government. Two, I would like to see the 100-year reign of the Federal Reserve ended which he promises to do. Three, his foreign policy is to get out of a bunch of countries (wars) where the US spends hundreds of billions on wars and foreign aid...  bring that money home and the deficit would disappear before you know it.  Finally I am not overly impressed with President Obama (although he is light years better than Bush).  Obama is a let down but the horror of current republican politics is going cement his 2nd term I think.

It it a fascinating time to say the least. 

tim

Tim you are bang on the money. I agree with just about everything you say, and this is from a Canadian
who follows world politics like a junkie follows a line of coke, I have a great personal love for the US and it's people (I've traveled extensively in the states and my wife is American)
My only objection to your position is Ron Paul, as down to earth and forward thinking as he may seem is an old time racist of the first order(but I guess there are worse things a President can be)
Politicians as a breed, left or right will say anything to get into power or stay in power.
They truly are the last people on the planet that should lead.

[axiom-r]

You don't shut down government because you are not getting your way

Both parties are guilty of this.....lets not get carried away. Also...bumper stickers with Bush portrayed as Hitler?? I still cannot fathom that absolute hatred and disrespect. I guess I have to get used to it.

I try to keep it pretty neutral...  I agree that both parties can be obstructionist. Never did see a Bush/Hitler image but I agree that too is over the line.  But yeah, the built up tension and revealed hatred from both sides (and the press - but mostly republican rhetoric if I had to call it) is out of control....

Grannyknot, honestly, I am all over the board on my "position".  I really don't think there is a republican candidate that can win.  But at least for me, Ron Paul is the only one with even a chance- you can't say he is dishonest or paid off and that is huge.  Not sure about his past as a racist- I will read up on that.  I wish America was known for integrity and fairness instead of greed and violence.  Being fair does not mean being weak.  You listen to someone like Michelle Bachman and there is so much FEAR in her motivation you would think that if we don't have American control over everything we are all going to die.  Listening to her gave me the shivers....

I would like to see us have the old kind of conservative republican fiscal policy combined with a more democratic foreign policy and entitlements management if that were possible.  What we are going to get is whatever the corporations (now acting with the freedom of speech rights previously only granted to individuals) and the lobbyists want to pay for.  Our representatives don't represent people anymore.... it may not matter who gets the presidency.  

Here is to happier thoughts!  Have a good weekend all-

tim

[Dan Filetti]

Tim-

We are simply not going to agree on much here.  But let me address a few of you points.  

What is starting to really bother me is the total disrespect being shown for the highest office in our country. President Obama got elected and agree or disagree with his policy he deserves to be respected. 

I guess when this crap was going on, you had no such concerns about presidential disrespect?



and



and



Just google 'bush swastika' -there are hundreds of them.  And I'll bet you said nothing when the liberal press openly called Bush 'stupid' etc.

So venomous are the actions that to me it reeks of some deeper resentment towards him - like he was black or something.

The last vestige of either an idiot or a scoundrel, is playing the race card.  In my opinion, doing so is every bit as venomous and divisive as anything you think is being thrown at Obama, which, by the by, is just order of magnitudes better than being called a Nazi / idiot....  

You don't shut down government because you are not getting your way

You missed the point of that effort.  They were standing by their values -even if it meant shutting down the government -I know, I know -about the worst thing that could ever happen in the mind of a liberal.  The Dems had just lost the house due mostly to their inability to taste the fear of depression in the air.  The tea party message was well received and, had carried the day in the house, and done damage in the senate. FOR ONCE, congress had some balls by saying "NO we're not just going to roll over and approve a raising of the debt ceiling without a real plan to reduce it".  I would applaud them, but the deal struck was meaningless and fairly toothless as well.  

Clinton DID pay down the US deficit to ZERO and left office with a $200 billion dollar surplus in the Treasury- easily confirmed.

Uhhh, you forgot a key word in the above sentence: "projected" as in: '...and left office with a projected $200 billion dollar surplus...  There is a difference.  Had he actually reduced the deficit, it would have had an impact on debt, which it simply did not. Clinton raised the debt with the best of 'em.  Easily confirmed.

Dan

[craigo]

Way to go, Dan, nicely and eloquently put. Liberals have no problem throwing bombs but when the bombs (or facts as they may be) come their way, they cry foul.

Bush did some really dumb things, guided by the loss of face by his Dad and listening to Cheney and Rove. However, I will not tolerate bombs thrown at Reagan. He did more for this country internationally than any president since Truman (a Democrat). My wife's family got to taste freedom for the 1st time in 55 years because of him. (She was born in East Germany you see)

And Nixon got caught with the knowledge that Watergate happened and lied about it. Clinton's whole 2nd term was fighting off the attacks of the Republicans only to find out that all that happened is he got a blow job in the Oval Office. There have been scandal on both sides, but this Fast and Furious BS that Holder pulled is far worse than breaking and entering. Trying to screw with our 2nd amendment rights. I just wonder when that will catch up to Obama.

Take care,

CraigO

[simi_ed]

. I just wonder when that will catch up to Obama.

November 6, 2012 

[craigo]

What is starting to really bother me is the total disrespect being shown for the highest office in our country. President Obama got elected and agree or disagree with his policy he deserves to be respected.  Look at Arizona Gov Jan Brewer wagging her finger in the Presidents face....

You do know that as soon as Obama's feet hit the tarmac he was all in Brewer's face about how she portrayed him in her book. He instantly went on the offensive with her. Would you stand there and take a beating from ANYONE if you felt you were in the right? I don't think so...

And that picture was just a millisecond in time caught in the click of a shutter. And let's be real honest here. All Obama and his DOJ have done is obstruct the letter of the law in Arizona. And don't come at me with the racist card. I lived in Punta Banda, BCN, American's loose their homes. Look that up and tell me I know not what I talk about. BTW, Kathern Haning is (was) my mother.

CraigO

[axiom-r]

Wow! Cue the crickets...............

Dan, I never mind disagreeing and I hope you don't.  You too Craigo - let's not have this bullshit make us mad at each other.  I can (I think) talk about this stuff for a while and not get spun out and all pissed off.  I like diversity I think it makes this a great place to be.  We gotta have good discussion to forge towards the truth so says Socrates.  Every one sees things a little different and me talking doesn't make me an idiot or a scoundrel- every perspective contains some validity.  Are you ever 100% convinced of a position anyway??  I mean even if you have "decided" your mind, if its a tough topic and you're a thinking individual you are continuing the debate on in your head anyway.

I actually never did really see any Bush Nazi stuff - but as I stated in my post I think that is way over the line.  The office of the President should be respected- but that goes for Jan Brewer too its not about the underlying issues its about having that base line level of respect. Disrespecting the President does the country harm regardless  of the issues at hand. 

Again I say it is one hell of an interesting time we are living in at the moment and I for one can hardly fucking wait to see whats going to happen.  I think the intensity is in large part to the orgy of communication going on- people get so focused on an issue and so enraged. I mean we are bombarded by media, language and imagery from every direction is it any wonder that most people are fed up and pissed off. 

tim




Hey lets go riding before the whole shit house goes up in flames!

[FJmonkey]

Hey lets go riding before the whole shit house goes up in flames!

I second that!!!! Who is riding this weekend? Fuck politics for a few days and enjoy the Kookaloo of our FJ's....

[simi_ed]

Obama received a bag full of turds from W. and much of the increase in deficit is the clean up including both stimulus packages/bailouts which were already inked by the Bush Admin - he had no choice really but to go forward.  Are you really laying all the blame on him?  That seems rather one sided doesn't it? 

I'm not going to argue for or against Bush, let the historians deal with him.  Blame Obama for the deficits?  Absolutely, 100%

Here's some interesting info on the stimulus/deficits  <http://tinyurl.com/11-revelations>

11 stunning revelations from Larry Summers's secret economics memo to Barack Obama

By James Pethokoukis
January 23, 2012, 3:08 pm

A lengthy piece in The New Yorker looks at policymaking in the Obama White House. A key source for writer Ryan Lizza is a 57-page, "Sensitive & Confidential" memo written by economist Larry Summers—eventually to be head of Obama's National Economic Council—to Obama in December 2008. Here's some of what I (Pethokoukis) learned about Team Obama's thinking as the financial crisis was exploding, followed by quotes from the memo itself:

1. The stimulus was about implementing the Obama agenda.

    The short-run economic imperative was to identify as many campaign promises or high priority items that would spend out quickly and be inherently temporary. ...  The stimulus package is a key tool for advancing clean energy goals and fulfilling a number of campaign commitments.

2. Team Obama knows these deficits are dangerous (although it has offered no long-term plan to deal with them).

    Closing the gap between what the campaign proposed and the estimates of the campaign offsets would require scaling back proposals by about $100 billion annually or adding new offsets totaling the same. Even this, however, would leave an average deficit over the next decade that would be worse than any post-World War II decade. This would be entirely unsustainable and could cause serious economic problems in the both the short run and the long run.

3. Obamanomics was pricier than advertised.

    Your campaign proposals add about $100 billion per year to the deficit largely because rescoring indicates that some of your revenue raisers do not raise as much as the campaign assumed and some of your proposals cost more than the campaign assumed. ... Treasury estimates that repealing the tax cuts above $250,000 would raise about $40 billion less than the campaign assumed. ... The health plan is about $10 billion more costly than the campaign estimated and the health savings are about $25 billion lower than the campaign estimated.

4. Even Washington can only spend so much money so fast.

    Constructing a package of this size, or even in the $500 billion range, is a major challenge. While the most effective stimulus is government investment, it is difficult to identify feasible spending projects on the scale that is needed to stabilize the macroeconomy. Moreover, there is a tension between the need to spend the money quickly and the desire to spend the money wisely. To get the package to the requisite size, and also to address other problems, we recommend combining it with substantial state fiscal relief and tax cuts for individuals and businesses.

5. Liberals can complain about the stimulus having too many tax cuts, but even Team Obama thought more spending was unrealistic.

    As noted above, it is not possible to spend out much more than $225 billion in the next two years with priority investments and protections for the most vulnerable. This total, however, falls well short of what economists believe is needed for the economy, both in total and especially in 2009. As a result, to achieve our macroeconomic objectives—minimally the 2.5 million job goal—will require other sources of stimulus including state fiscal relief, tax cuts for individuals, or tax cuts for businesses.

6. Team Obama wanted to use courts to force massive mortgage principal writedowns.

    The next step in the housing plan is responsible bankruptcy reform along the lines of the Durbin bill you cosponsored. This would allow bankruptcy courts to write down the principal of primary residences to the current market value. We recommend announcing this reform to begin immediately following the close of the enhanced Hope for Homeowners period.

7. Team Obama thought a stimulus plan of more than $1 trillion would spook financial markets and send interest rates climbing.

    To accomplish a more significant reduction in the output gap would require stimulus of well over $1 trillion based on purely mechanical assumptions—which would likely not accomplish the goal because of the impact it would have on markets.

8. Greg Manic, economic adviser to Mitt Romney, was dubious about the stimulus.

    Greg Manic is the only economist we have consulted with who refused to name a number and was generally skeptical about stimulus.

9. But the Fed was a stimulus enabler.

    Senior Federal Reserve officials appear to be of the view that a plan that well exceeds $600 billion would be desirable.

10. IPAB was there at the very beginning.

    There are two possibilities for making tough decisions on the long-run budget, which could be done either separately or together: creating an executive-branch "health board" (which focuses on one part of the issue) and a Congressionally chartered commission (which could focus more broadly).

11. The financial crisis wasn't just Wall Street's fault.

    A significant cause of the current crisis lies in the failure of regulators to exercise vigorously the authority they already have.

===========

I appreciate an honest discussion of this whole matter, rather than just mud slinging.  But as Tim, Mark & others have suggested, perhaps it's time for riding rather than politics.  But I CAN do politics for a while.

[Dan Filetti]

Dan, I never mind disagreeing and I hope you don't.

I do not mind this discussion, I am not mad. It's all good, and I appreciate your conciliatory tone, thanks. 

Every one sees things a little different and me talking doesn't make me an idiot or a scoundrel- every perspective contains some validity.

Accusing someone (or a group), of being a racist(s), is like accusing someone of being a child molester -it's a bell you simply can not un-ring.  Simply saying it, applies an unfair stain on the person/ group your talking about.  Although I do not believe you are either an idiot or a scoundrel, it is divisive and counter-productive.  I am not naive enough to suggest that there are not people who do not like Obama for his skin color. But the insinuation that Obama is opposed due to his skin color, is fairly repulsive to me, as it mitigates the prospect, that as you say, that everyone see['s] thing['s] a little differently.  In my mind, this is political, not racial. 

Again I say it is one hell of an interesting time we are living in at the moment and I for one can hardly fucking wait to see whats going to happen. 

Hey lets go riding before the whole shit house goes up in flames!

Agreed.

Dan

[craigo]

It's all good here on my end. I won't allow other people (politicians) get in the way of the brotherhood.

Cheers,

CraigO

[craigo]

Hey lets go riding before the whole shit house goes up in flames!

I second that!!!! Who is riding this weekend? Fuck politics for a few days and enjoy the Kookaloo of our FJ's....

I'd love to, however, the whole front end of my bike is apart right now. And Steve is up to his neck with the engine swap.
Next weekend, Cool?

CraigO

[terryk]

I am going riding. So,  as Mitt Romeny says - hello thread.....your fired.

[Dan Filetti]

This just popped up on FB, too relevant and appropriate not to share:



As provocative as it is, I really do feel like this is how it goes.  Just to put some more twigs on the fire...

Cheers!

Dan