APE SUCKS

[andyb]

Pretty clear title, I hope.

First, the backstory.

I took apart my FJ to make sure that it could handle a shot of nitrous.  This appears to have been a mistake.  

Head came off fine, block came off reasonably easy.  I ran out and got APE HD studs/nuts for it to make sure that the head wouldn't lift and burn a gasket (or worse!) under load.  I figure I'm new to nitrous on bikes, I'd like things a little overbuilt so that mistakes will hurt a bit less.  So I start pulling studs.  A couple were pretty loose, a couple were scary loose, and a couple were tight.  Got down to having three in the front that I just couldn't seem to get out.  Went out, bought a good stud puller, went to work at it.

Bent a stud.  Shit!  Now what?  Cut it off, drilled it out.  Drilled more, drilled more, finally decided to try my hand with a screw extractor.  It broke.  Shit!  Bought diamond bits and spent a few hours fiddling with it, and managed to get the remains of the extractor out.  Redrilled into the stud's remains, got another extractor, and the SOB broke.  Started the drilling process again, but now I'm starting to worry a bit.  Figured I'll stop and have the pros do it.  Pulled the motor, split the cases, and called APE.

Explained that I had a broken stud (and still 2 stuck firmly in the cases).  One hole is totally fubar'd, and I need a shop that can accurately drill it out and helicoil it to the right size.  They say sure, not a problem, just fill out a workorder thing and ship it.  Sweet!

So I vroom the case to the UPS store, spend $100 and ship it off to california.  Lead time was quoted as 2 weeks, which seems reasonable.  I wrote on the work order to give me a call when they're ready to start work, had a couple things that I wanted to warn them about that didn't fit on the paperwork.

2 weeks and change later, they call me, ready to start in on it.  Oh, sorry, can't drill it if there's a drill/extractor in the hole.  No EMD machine (or whatever it's called), no diamond bits.  Well, pull the studs then and see if you can do anything anyhow.

A week passes and they call back.  Nope, can't do shit to the f'ked hole.  One of the studs came out, finger tight, the other they can't remove because they're afraid of breaking it off, it's tight you see.

Okay, so I spent $100 to send these halfwits my case, and their machine shop can't do anything that I could do with some time and energy in the garage.  The hell?!  The ENTIRE POINT of sending the thing out was for someone with better machinery than I to get work done, and they can't do any of it?!

So, assuming that they're actually able to send back the correct part, I'm going to end up in the driveway with a drill press and garden hose, drilling out some studs (water for lubrication on diamond bits, you see).

Anyone know of a machine shop in the midwest that can put in a helicoil straight and true?  Better than a "first-class production facility" with a "a state-of-the-art machine shop" (their words both times) that can't do what can be done on my workbench?

Grrr.  About a month wasted and a bunch of cash in shipping.  

[racerrad8]

Andy,
       I am in California; have them send it to me and I will take care of it. I have the proper length Heli-Coil. I have removed many broken/damaged/rusted studs from a bunch cases. Plus, I can fix any other holes that might be suspect.

My shipping address is:

RPM
5701-A Garst Rd
Modesto, Ca. 95357

You can hit me here on PM or I will be back to the shop on Friday checking my rpm@swaybar.com email.

Randy - RPM

[Dan Filetti]

For whatever reason I was just reading old posts....  Randy/ Andy did this ever get fixed?  Randy were you able to do what APE was not?

Just curious...

Dan

[andyb]

Indeed he did, and quite at a reasonable price to boot.

[racerrad8]

Yep,
     I had to make a replacement bushing for the hole that Andy drilled with the diamond bit as it went off-center. Other than that, the repair was something that I have done to this point a bunch of times.

I even talked him out of using those APE studs as they are junk too.

Andy,
         How is the engine coming along? Did you ever make any progress on the head flow principles?

Randy - RPM

[SkyFive]

Yep, been there and done that, just last week as a matter of fact. I was removing the rusty studs in the front and center of my case with vise grips as I plan on replacing them anyway. Two or three came out fairly easy with a shot of "Liquid Wrench" but one wouldn't budge, I even put a pipe wrench on it. I fired up the oxy-cetylene torch and heated the case a little around the base of the stud and then I heated the stud til it turned orange and then I put a pipe wrench on it and it broke loose. The threads still look good, I was relieved.

[Bob]

...I fired up the oxy-cetylene torch and heated the case a little around the base of the stud and then I heated the stud til it turned orange and then I put a pipe wrench on it and it broke loose. The threads still look good, I was relieved.

I think I understand the idea of heating the case around the base of the stud to expand the case a bit.
But why does heating the stud that much help break it loose?  Wouldn't heating expand it and make it harder to remove?
I thought that kind of heat was only needed to release bolts with locktite.

[andyb]

That was the worst stud in the history of ever.  I tried everything, and several times each, from heat, to cold, various penetrants, vibration, etc.  Quite welded in!  But Randy came up with a lovely fix that should be able to hold up to a good amount of abuse.

Engine's going together, even with OEM studs    

Figured out what may be the best scenario for head flow, just waiting for decent weather and a bunch of time to test it.  S'rough trying to measure a couple % change in that area.

[racerrad8]

The idea of heating is to create expansion. With dissimilar metal like steel & aluminum they actually corrode together becoming welded.

If you only heat the outer portion, it might not expand enough to break from of the corrosion. If you heat the source (bolt/stud) to red hot and allow it to cool, if will be more likely to dislodge due to the differing expansion rates. Plus you can apply more heat to the part you are not going to use again and prevent damage to the case.

Randy - RPM

[Brook]

....... Randy, can you say why, the APE studs are junk.

.... Chris, the mechanic, that rebuilt my motor about three years ago said, he had the APE studs in his GSRX1100. So, I agreed, to put them in my Motor.
                         
                                                           Thanks, Jeff

[racerrad8]

....... Randy, can you say why, the APE studs are junk.
                         
                                                           Thanks, Jeff

Yamaha designed the stud with the intent the stud is able to stretch a specified amount to allow for expansion due to heat of the engine and maintain the proper torque on the head & base gaskets.

The APE stud is a much heavier/thicker stud that does not stretch the same amount which then results in bigger problems with your engine. One of the biggest things is I see on a regular basis is since the stud doesn't stretch, it pulls the threads from the case. Once those have then been Heli-Coiled and the stud reinstalled then engine comes back with a broken stud because the weakest point of the clamping system then is the stud.

Unless you are building some sort of forced injection intake system where you will be building significantly higher combustion chamber pressure, you do not need "better" studs; they will only lead to other failures.

Randy - RPM

[Brook]

......Thanks for the reply,.... one thing I did not mention,.... When Chris [my mechanic] rebuilt my motor, he called Hank Scott,......Hank said, do not use the APE studs, because they can brake.......           

I already had the new APE studs in hand. so, that's why I used them......
... Chris is a very good mechanic, he had a write-up in one of the major sport bike magazines.... on his GSXR1100 that he installed a supercharger,... maybe, that's why he installed the APE studs in his motor.

...... I have said, [here] in the past, that my FJ motor had a blown head gasket,..... and I believe the APE studs had something to do with that.

                                        Thanks, Jeff