Clutch Handle Sloppy

[Scooterbob]

Before I get flamed and beat up, I did do several searches before posting.

It's getting harder and harder for me to downshift.  I can upshift fine, but it seems as if I have to make sure I pull the clutch lever all the way in as far as possible before I can even attempt to downshift.  It did not used to be like that.  What if I had larger foam grips?  Then i'd really be screwed! 
Anyhow, I notice that the pull lever has about 1/4 pull before I have any type of resistance or pressure building.  There is no adjustment (that I'm aware of) and I have replaced the fluid and bled it extensively.  No help. 
ALSO, I have the tell-tale sign of paint peeling on the side cover.  I'm guessing that I need to rebuild the clutch slave under that cover with new seals and polishing, but will that do it?  Or should I look at rebuilding my clutch M/C also?  Which one (or both) is likely to get rid of all the slop at the handle?

[Yamifj1200]

Bob, the fact that your seeing paint peeling off of your slave cylinder most likely means your loosing brake fluid there and causing your clutch problems. I would start with rebuilding the slave first, its easy to do but as you have found bleeding it can be a pain.  If after you rebuild the slave cylinder if you still have a problem rebuild the clutch master cylinder as well. When I rebuilt mine I polished the bore with some Mothers aluminum polish and replaced the seals, its been fine for the past 40,000 miles or so. Remember to thoroughly clean the bore and assemble the slave cylinder with clean fresh brake fluid and new seals. You should be fine... Hope this helps..

Eric M

[Scooterbob]

Rebuilding that lower unit would generally help with the slop at the handle?

[Yamifj1200]

Bob, of there is actual slop in the handle the lever itself may be worn out. Take off the lever and make sure the bore where the bolt goes through it is round and not worn out. It could be just a worn our clutch lever or a worn bolt the lever rides on or a combination of the two. Have you ever removed it and lubricated the sleeve thats in there? I only suggested rebuilding the slave since you posted there was paint missing from the the filter housing. The only way paint would be worn off of the the filter housing would be if the slave cylinder has been leaking..

Eric M

[Scooterbob]

Bob, of there is actual slop in the handle the lever itself may be worn out. Take off the lever and make sure the bore where the bolt goes through it is round and not worn out. It could be just a worn our clutch lever or a worn bolt the lever rides on or a combination of the two. Have you ever removed it and lubricated the sleeve thats in there? I only suggested rebuilding the slave since you posted there was paint missing from the the filter housing. The only way paint would be worn off of the the filter housing would be if the slave cylinder has been leaking..

Eric M

Yes, I have done all of that also.  Only damage or worn parts I found is the little rubber boot that covers the plunger push pin.  Rest is tight, in great shape and properly lubed. 
I'm going to rebuild the slave regardless, but I was just curious if that should help the play at the handle. 

[hpras]

Check part #4.  It's a little brass bushing with a hole in it that the master cylinder push pin goes into.  They can actually wear right through.  Happened to me, had the same issues.



Cheers

Hans

[Scooterbob]

Check part #4.  It's a little brass bushing with a hole in it that the master cylinder push pin goes into.  They can actually wear right through.  Happened to me, had the same issues.

Cheers

Hans

That part looks great.  I was thinking maybe part #3 could eventually wear down the overall length, but that wouldn't explain the recent slop.  That would be more of a gradual thing I would think.

[hpras]

That part looks great.  I was thinking maybe part #3 could eventually wear down the overall length, but that wouldn't explain the recent slop.  That would be more of a gradual thing I would think.
[/quote]

Hmm, on the new part, the hole only goes about 1/2 way through.  I'm outta ideas. 

[jvb_ca]

Rebuilding that lower unit would generally help with the slop at the handle?

Not necessarily rebuilding the slave will help the slop at the handle, but ridding the system of air will. Sounds like it is starting to leak. It will start like this, then all at once you will have no clutch. If you have not rebuilt or cleaned the slave, it is highly recommended. Its not a matter if it will leak, its a matter of when it will leak. It will also give you piece of mind. Loosing your clutch is no fun.
You haven't lost the little ball that the clutch push rod pushes against? (part 26) Diaphragm spring getting weak maybe? (part 14)



Cheers...Jake

[Scooterbob]

Rebuilding that lower unit would generally help with the slop at the handle?

Not necessarily rebuilding the slave will help the slop at the handle, but ridding the system of air will. Sounds like it is starting to leak. It will start like this, then all at once you will have no clutch. If you have not rebuilt or cleaned the slave, it is highly recommended. Its not a matter if it will leak, its a matter of when it will leak. It will also give you piece of mind. Loosing your clutch is no fun.
You haven't lost the little ball that the clutch push rod pushes against? (part 26) Diaphragm spring getting weak maybe? (part 14)

Cheers...Jake

Is it even worth taking it apart and cleaning/polishing it all without new seals?  I would rather do it all at once, but I need to ride every day and can't afford to wait if I can improve on what I have.  (**Emailed Randy @ RPM and got no answer yet on the seal kit, but I know he's busy**)  Or should I just try and bleed the air out.....again?
Don't think the ball is lost, since I haven't had it apart yet.  Possible for it to fall in somewhere without even disassembling it?

[Yamifj1200]

"Is it even worth taking it apart and cleaning/polishing it all without new seals?  I would rather do it all at once, but I need to ride every day and can't afford to wait if I can improve on what I have.  (**Emailed Randy @ RPM and got no answer yet on the seal kit, but I know he's busy**)  Or should I just try and bleed the air out.....again?
Don't think the ball is lost, since I haven't had it apart yet.  Possible for it to fall in somewhere without even disassembling it? "


Whatever you do "DONT" try to start the motor with the slave cylinder off of the motor. You will shoot the clutch rod and ball bearing across the room and most likely loose the ball. The ball will stay in place as long as the clutch rod stays in place. You can try to rebuilt the slave clinder without new seals, but if the seals you have are torn or worn out it would be difficult to make it right again..

Eric M

 

[markmartin]

Bob,

My guess is with Eric and Jake's prognosis of it being the slave.  Does the problem improve slightly when you bleed the system?...and then gradually go back to a very mushy clutch?  I chased these similar symptoms until I lost the function of the clutch completely --and got back to normal with a slave kit.  If you do, get RPM Randy's slave kit --it includes the spring.  Servicing the slave was no harder than an oil change, it just had a little of that 'unchartered-ground anxiety'.

Mark

[Scooterbob]

Just got done removing the slave and cleaning it up.  It was VERY hard to get the piston moving up and down before I worked on it.  I was able to polish and get it moving smoothly again, but the seal will still need replaced.  There was a lot of build-up of dirt and fluid behind it when I pulled the entire slave off the bike.  After getting everything back to as close to normal as possible, it's hardly a noticeable difference.  Right now when I put it on the center stand, I can hold the clutch handle all the way in and put it in gear and the wheel is almost impossible to stop without decent force.  I'm guessing it should not spin at all or at least be able to be stopped easily with my foot or hand (all while the clutch handle is still pulled in). 

As soon as Randy emails me back, I will order the kit for the slave and M/C and see if my issues go away. Hopefully I can still drive it without it going totally out until then........

[Harvy]

Hopefully I can still drive it without it going totally out until then........

Bob, you can. I managed about 3000KM as I was on a trip when mine went. Its a pain, but as long as you can get it rolling b4 moving from neutral to 1st, its not too difficult if you are mindful of trying to keep engine revs near correct for the next gear you intend to engage, and select neutral good and early when coming to a halt.......can be a right bastard at traffic lights though.

Harvy

[andyb]

Just got done removing the slave and cleaning it up.  It was VERY hard to get the piston moving up and down before I worked on it.  I was able to polish and get it moving smoothly again, but the seal will still need replaced.  There was a lot of build-up of dirt and fluid behind it when I pulled the entire slave off the bike.  After getting everything back to as close to normal as possible, it's hardly a noticeable difference.  Right now when I put it on the center stand, I can hold the clutch handle all the way in and put it in gear and the wheel is almost impossible to stop without decent force.  I'm guessing it should not spin at all or at least be able to be stopped easily with my foot or hand (all while the clutch handle is still pulled in).  

As soon as Randy emails me back, I will order the kit for the slave and M/C and see if my issues go away. Hopefully I can still drive it without it going totally out until then........

Bob, it's a wet clutch, it'll never truly disengage completely unless you drain all the oil and install dry clutch plates.  That'd be a bit hard on the rest of the motor that wants the lubrication, though.  Having the wheel turning while idling in neutral (or in gear with the clutch in) on the centerstand is normal.  If it needs a bunch bunch of effort to stop, the clutch actuation system isn't at fault, the clutch plates are sticking together, the stack height is wrong, or the steels are warped.  Should give you a big clunk when you hit first gear from neutral at a stop, but shouldn't be giving you all of the problems you're experiencing.  By chance are you using aftermarket clutch plates?

After you get the slave rebuilt, and the system well bled (which can be a bit tricky for many folks!), if you continue to have problems, I'm afraid you're going to have to pull the clutch cover off and start looking for some trouble.  

Once it's rebuilt and bled well, you can take the slave off the motor and hold it in your hand, and see how much actuation it's got.  It doesn't move a huge distance, but it should start moving shortly after you start moving the lever (it won't move until the holes at the bottom of the master have closed, you will see the piston moving and closing them in the first 15mm of travel or so at the lever).  If all that's working well, then there's a couple ways you could not be getting actuation at the pressure plate itself... if the slave isn't solidly bolted on or has been spaced away from the motor somehow, if the clutch pushrod has worn off at the end or bent a bit--perhaps from a thrown chain, if the ball is missing between the long and short pushrods, if the pressure plate is seriously buggered up, etc.  You may find it worthwhile to get under the clutch cover, pull the clutch pack, and start looking for warped steels (my guess, if you have to get this far into it), dry frictions, or aftermarket frictions (barnett kevlar fibers very often bind and grab and otherwise suck).