Total electrical system failure

[Tuned forks]

Was riding the ol' FJ around town today.  While waiting at a light the engine shut down.  No instrument lights, no starter, no fuel pump, nuttin'.  I pushed it to within 1 1/2 blocks of home, the rest is uphill.  So far I checked the main fuse for the coil relay mod and I replaced the relay for same.  Wiggled wires etc.  Nobody home.  I'm about to walk back to the bike with a multimeter and check if I have any battery voltage and whether the running lights are working.
Maybe the alternator failed and I exhausted the battery.  In the meantime, I'd like to read other areas of the wiring that could cause a total system failure please.  Oh, for those that haven't seen my machine, it's a 1990.

Joe

[Tuned forks]

I may have found part of the issue.  The battery voltage was 7.46V.  I am guessing the FJ has a charging issue now.  Suppose it remains to be seen if it's wiring or the alternator.

Joe

[Tuned forks]

I put the old lead/acid battery back it and the bike had electrical life plus it started.  So now it's back home.  The multimeter was put back into use.  Idle is about 12.1 volts, 1500 rpm is 12.33 and 2000 rpm is 14.1V. Does that look typical for a healthy FJ charging system?  The battery that died is a WPS lithium but it seems that if the charging system was working, the engine would not have died.  Fortunately I kept the lead/acid battery that was previously being used because it just came in handy.  Any ideas what could have happened?  Loose connector somewhere?

Joe

[Pat Conlon]

Did you check the infamous "red plug"?
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg180504#msg180504

Are you overcharging your lithium battery?
Old school lead acid batteries are much more tolerant to 15+ volts charging current than AGM's or Li batteries.

[aviationfred]

Having no blown fuses, and it appears that your alternator is charging correctly. My first question would be.... was one of the battery terminal screws loose? 2nd would be as mentioned, check the red plug.


Fred

[fj-f3a]

Joe

It is very hard to say without being there but, the fact that the bike had electrical power and started with the old battery reinstalled makes me believe it is most likely the battery.
The batteries I use in my model aircraft are Lithium Polymer, not Lithium Ion. When a Lithium Polymer battery is falling, it usually goes High Internal Resistance and thus can not deliver the required current, resulting in the battery becoming very hot and suffering a large Voltage Drop under load.

I am not sure if Lithium Ion batteries exhibit the same symptoms.

One thing that all members of this forum who like doing their own electrical work should consider purchasing is a simply "Hall Effect DC Clamp Meter". I am using an ISO-TECH ICM 30 meter. It cost me about AU$230.00 and was well worth it.
Using a Current measurement to check a charging system is much easier and more accurate than voltage.

I would say that the most likely point of failure would be an earth point.
Looking at all the diagrams in the Hays Manual, the entire lighting and ignition circuit connects to the frame at one point. The batteries negative (zero volt) terminal also connects to the frame at a single point.
These points plus the main earth from the engine to the frame should be inspected. Something we all ( well, most of us, myself included) neglect.

If you have a charger suitable for charging a Lithium Ion motorcycle battery, I would consider trying to charge the battery then placing it back in the bike and seeing if the bike will start. Remember, the only way to check a battery is "Under Load".

Unfortunately, they do not build batteries (or anything for that matter) to last. If you get say three years from a battery, your doing well.

At this stage, I don't think it is the charging system.

Gavin

[Tuned forks]

Thank you fellas for the ideas.  

Pat as it's dark now, I'll check the infamous red plug tomorrow or Sunday.  Hard to know if it was being overcharged.  The max voltage I saw after installing the lead/acid battery was about 14.25V.  I just read the post you linked.  Greg's description of his event was just about identical to mine except I never smelled anything burning.

When I removed the Lithium battery Fred, both battery bolts were tight and all connections were clean.

Gavin, I'm not familiar with a Hall Effect DC Clamp Meter.  My multimeter does have a clamp lead for checking amperage.  I am sure that if Robert or Randy chime in they will be able to offer insight into the peculiarities of their Lithium batteries.
The ground would be a good idea.  "Somewhere",  I have a wiring diagram that Fred sent me, (at least I think it was Fred).  Otherwise, I don't know where the main earth connection is for the bike.  That's a really good and simple point however.  So many other vehicular electrical issues I've diagnosed have come down to poor grounds.
I think this newer Lithium battery does not require a unique charger.  I thought that was one of the features of the current crop of Lithium batteries being sold at RPM.  I could be mistaken.
The Lithium battery is five months old or so.

Joe

[Pat Conlon]

FYI it is common for FJ's to put out more than 15+ volts charging voltage
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4887.0;attach=13477

Perhaps it's time for the Transpo VR mod?

[Tuned forks]

I'll rev the engine higher tomorrow to check for 15+ volts.

Not familiar with that mod although I have read references to VR problems.  I also don't see the infamous red plug on RPM's website.  If it's melted then just replace with a generic substitution?

Joe

[Pat Conlon]

My experience with overcharging was that it was very hard to pin down.

[Tuned forks]

I did read about your frustrations regarding cooking an AGM battery and how you had to carry a multimeter in your tank bag.
I also did read a thread about installing the Transpo VR.

Joe

[racerrad8]

Joe,

7.4 volts is still enough power to illuminate the lights, so I'm wondering if you have something else going on.


I understand the battery voltage is low,  but if there was a total power loss,  you need to be looking elsewhere than the battery.

The main ground cable is attached at one of the rear engine case bolts. You could be the first with a failure at that point,  but I doubt it.

If it's was a true electrical power loss,  then your going to need to start with the ignition switch and plug and then move to the handlebar kill switch.

I think I took a photo of the plug I recently replaced on the General's US bike before it went to the new owner. I'll look when I get to the shop.

Randy -RPM

[Tuned forks]

Good points.  However, as soon as I dropped in the lead acid battery the whole electrical system came to life. 

I agree about the voltage.   Cars, from the past, could run on 8 volts.  Don't ask me how I know.    But, the bike lost all dash lights during the shutdown and they all came back with a battery switch. 

Maybe I should put the lithium battery back in and test the lights again.  Who knows, maybe I wiggled a wire just right during the battery switch.  Today I plan to rev the engine higher and test for excessive voltage. 

Is it true Randy, that the lithium battery I bought will get destroyed by 15V?

Joe

[racerrad8]

But, the bike lost all dash lights during the shutdown and they all came back with a battery switch.

Joe

The lights will definitely function at the 7 volts, they will be dim but illuminated. By changing the battery, you could have disrupted the failure point. Or if there is firty corroded contacts, for instance in the ignition switch, the new voltage aource could create enough arc to get things working again.

If I was working on it I would be looking for something that would have caused an electrical failure/shut down. If the lights still glowed, then I would say dead battery right off.

Is it true Randy, that the lithium battery I bought will get destroyed by 15V?

Joe

Li batteries do not excessive voltage for an extended amount of time. They do not have the internal ability to absorb the excess heat/expansion that a normal lead acid/AGM battery do.

So, the electrical & charging systems need to be diagnosed and see what occurred. I looked for some photos of the melted plug I recently changed, but I can't find them.

Randy - RPM

[Pat Conlon]

.......Li batteries do not excessive voltage for an extended amount of time. They do not have the internal ability to absorb the excess heat/expansion that a normal lead acid/AGM battery do.

From the different AGM specifications I've read, AGM batteries don't like charging @ 15+ volts either.