Replacing 'flasher' relay box, help?

[dlearyous]

Hello all!

I made a stupid mistake and need help! 
I have a 87 fj1200 that I've been trying to slowly customise to be more of a street fighter.  I bought new(used) flashers that are smaller than the ones that were on the bike and changed one last week (I ran out of connectors and had to drive around with two different flashers for a couple days, doh).  On my way home from work today my flashers started intermittently not working.  By the time I got home they had stopped working completely.  I stupidly thought some contact cleaner would fix this problem and started to change the other flasher.  Now I have two of the same flashers but no flash....

Suggestions?  Help? 

I've looked at ebay for new relay boxes and they are available but I've considered changing to LEDs anyways but have no idea how hard switching out the relay box(41R-71) will be?  It seems to do more than just help with the flashers as it has 9 wires going into it. 

[red]

Hello all!
On my way home from work today my flashers started intermittently not working.  By the time I got home they had stopped working completely.  Suggestions?  Help?  I've looked at ebay for new relay boxes and they are available but I've considered changing to LEDs anyways but have no idea how hard switching out the relay box(41R-71) will be?  It seems to do more than just help with the flashers as it has 9 wires going into it.

dlearyous,

Hang tough.  Somewhere in the past posts here, somebody figured out that you can have turn signal flashers with two wires (only) from the old module, and a standard car flasher.  Yes,  the module does other stuff besides flashers, but I can't say what all.  You only unplug two wires from the module, the rest will be okay.  Anyway, crank up your Search, or hope that somebody here remembers what needs to happen for flashers.  If you find out the right information, this would be a good time to change the car flasher for an LED version.  

I'd still snag a good module from eBay, or wherever.  Happy hunting.
.

[dlearyous]

Hi Red,

I stopped by a mc shop here in Sweden and asked for some help and ended up buying a new relay that would work for both the original lights but LEDs as well so I figured that sounded like the perfect fix.  I came home today and looked over the wiring diagram and Yellow/Red seems to be the wire going to the black relay box that goes to the flashers.  I then connected this one to the positive of the new relay and spliced in the negative to the black negative going from the relay box.  All this done and still no flashers....

I spent the past hour trying to go through old posts and havent found anything about how to wire in the relay but did see some posts saying to use resistors instead of a relay.... doh.... 

Really hoping someone has some light to shed.  I'm supposed to be going on a trip with the bike in a month and the weathers already great here as is!  I wanna ride!

D

[fj-f3a]

What is the total wattage of the new blinker bulbs?

Most blinker bulbs are 21W.

You may need a Load Resistor spliced between the Brown/White wire and Ground.

The Yellow/Red switches to ground and appears to be a signal wire.

What is really needed is a circuit diagram of the Relay Unit, not just a block symbol.

Remember, blinker relays are "Current Dependant". This is how they sense a blown globe. A reduction in current.

Too little current, they don't work at all.

[red]

Hi Red,
I spent the past hour trying to go through old posts and havent found anything about how to wire in the relay but did see some posts saying to use resistors instead of a relay....
D

D,

The resistors were a false trail.  You need them only if you want to use LEDs with a normal (thermal) flasher unit.  The turn signals would blink very rapidly with LEDs and a standard flasher, without the resistors.  A dedicated LED flasher unit runs on time, not current heating, so the turn signals will blink at the normal rate, no matter what bulbs are used in the turn signal fixtures.  A relay is just a switch, run by small currents to switch large currents.  It won't do anything of itself, unless the relay coil is connected to a "flashing" voltage.  In other words, if you have no flashing, then no relay can help you.

For now, I'd say forget the LEDs and just restore the turn signals to totally stock operation.  You can tinker with LEDs after the riding season ends.  Maybe by then, somebody can tell you how the stock flasher module works, and you can go from there.  I do not have a wiring diagram for your bike.  If you can PM a copy to me, I may be able to figure out what needs to happen there
.

[dlearyous]

What is the total wattage of the new blinker bulbs?

Most blinker bulbs are 21W.

You may need a Load Resistor spliced between the Brown/White wire and Ground.

The Yellow/Red switches to ground and appears to be a signal wire.

What is really needed is a circuit diagram of the Relay Unit, not just a block symbol.

Remember, blinker relays are "Current Dependant". This is how they sense a blown globe. A reduction in current.

Too little current, they don't work at all.

Hi fjf3a,

The blinker bulbs are OEM at the moment, I havent even had the time to change to anything else.  I was just hoping to get these back up and running for a planned trip to Norway in a couple weeks and change to LEDs later. 

I tried later connecting the red from the new unit to R/Y and the black to Br/W thinking that I could bypass the relay in the OEM box but that gave no result either....

http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/6400_27_06_19_9_42_19.jpeg

http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/6400_27_06_19_9_36_31.jpeg

[fj-f3a]

I am at work at the moment. Will advise in about 4hrs time. Should be an easy fix. Good that you posted the wiring diagram.

[fj-f3a]

Firstly, what was wrong with the original relay?

Was the wiring original or modified?

The 41R-71 has other relays on board which control the ignition cutout feature for the Side Stand and the ability to start the motorcycle in gear, with the clutch disengaged and the side stand raised. Therefore, this relay is essential.

The Flasher Relay is a "Self Canceling" relay. The Y/R wire will "tell" the relay that the Blinker Switch is activated even when the relay is canceled.

The relay contact which is connected to the bulbs is a "Normally Closed" contact, meaning Current will flow as soon as the Left or Right Blinker Switch is selected.

The flasher measures a Voltage Drop across a "Precision Shunt Resistor" within the flasher unit.
The value of this voltage drop determines the flash rate. The unit is programmed with two different voltages, the higher voltage drop resulting in a slower flash rate and a lower drop a higher flash rate.
This is why is is important to use bulbs of the correct voltage and wattage rating or, a "Load Resistor."
Remember, when using a Load Resistor, you may loose the "Blown Bulb" indication. (Fast flash)

Enough theory for now.

The 41R-71 relay with original wiring and the correct bulbs will work.

I stopped by a mc shop here in Sweden and asked for some help and ended up buying a new relay that would work for both the original lights but LEDs as well so I figured that sounded like the perfect fix.  I came home today and looked over the wiring diagram and Yellow/Red seems to be the wire going to the black relay box that goes to the flashers.  I then connected this one to the positive of the new relay and spliced in the negative to the black negative going from the relay box.  All this done and still no flashers....

When the blinker switch on the handlebar is activated, the Y/R wires is connected directly to Ground.

If by chance the new relay is a "Three Wire Electronic Relay" then, remove the Brown Wire from the 41R-71 relay and connect to the Positive Terminal on the new relay, remove the Brown/White Wire from the 41R-71 relay and connect to the Output Terminal on the new relay, connect the Negative Terminal on the new relay to ground.

You will loose the Self Cancelling Feature of the 41R-71.

As stated above, the 41R-71 is essential for correct operation of the Safety Circuit, so leave in place.

I forgot to ask, did the bulbs light up and not blink or not light up at all?

Gavin

[dlearyous]

Hey Gavin!

Problem solved!  New flasher relay in place!

Thanks for the very thorough explanation!  I been learning loads about so many different things I didnt know and understand since buying this bike and I'm loving it!  That being said, I'm not quite sure I understand what the Y/R wire does or this 'self cancelling'?  From what I was reading yesterday it seems that some FJs had an automatic turn off for the flashers but if mine did, it didnt work when I got it so....

I spent a good part of last night searching forums and then fell asleep trying to figure out my wiring diagram and understand things and then this morning actually came to the exact same conclusion that you just explained.  Brown got spliced and attached to the positive terminal of the new relay, then Brown/White got clipped and attached to the negative wire from the new relay.  Lucky for me there were only two wires so no need to clip or attach anymore!  I did however leave the Y/R wire clipped, is there a good reason why to reconnect it?  Oh, I also noticed that the 41R-71 is essential as when removed I went to test that the starter still worked and nada.  Plugged it in and she fired right up.

I was so happy that I had flashers again plus I figured the battery would probably like a bit of charge so I just literally got back from a joy ride.   

Thank you so so much for taking the time to explain things and figure out a solution to my problem!  Very very much appreciated.   

[fj-f3a]

Hi Dlearyous

Good to see the Blinkers are working.

I did however leave the Y/R wire clipped, is there a good reason why to reconnect it?

One must be very carefull with motorcycle electrical modifications. Things can get really messy really quickly.

Now that the Blinkers are working, after you trip, when you have calmed down, I suggest you purchase some crimp lugs, simillar to the lugs in the 41R-71's Socket, a crimping tool and reterminate the Y/R wire.
This wire, along with the G/W wire will no longer do anything but the bike will remain standard.
You can also purchase some Male crimp lugs which will plug into the Female lugs from the socket.
Try to avoid solder connections. They do not mix well with vibration. A quality crimp connection protected by one or two layers of Heat Shrink is much better.

Enough for now, enjoy you trip but most important, enjoy this fantastic motor cycle.

I will post some links to the crimp lugs later.

Self canceling blinker explanation available on request.

Gavin

[dlearyous]

Hi Gavin,

I would love an explanation of what the self cancelling feature is. 

Is there any real reason to reconnect the Y/R besides to restore the standard connections?  If its not doing anything is all I'm thinking.

Cheers,
Devin

[fj-f3a]

Hi Devin

Reconnecting the Y/R wire will have no effect in you installation as it is currently configured, except for keeping the wiring neat and tidy and as standard as possible.
This I highly recommend, but it is not necessary.
The terminals are "Spade" type and I believe the terminals are 2.8mm in width.

http://www.vintageconnections.com/Products/Terminals

I still can not understand why you do not replace the original relay or use it if it is still OK. This will maintain the self canceling function.
Personally, I would not go LED. No advantage.

The "Self Canceling" feature works on two criteria, time and distance.
The blinker relay is programmed to cancel after a certain time, say 15 seconds and distance, say 200 mtrs.
When you activate the blinkers, the internal timer is started.
The relay then start counting pulses through the G/W wire. This wire is connected to one side of a reed switch on the speedo. The other side of the reed switch is connected to ground.
The G/W wire is supplied through a high valve "Pull Up" resistor of say 10k ohms, within the relay.
As the front wheel rotates, the reed switch is activated by a magnetic on the speedo and produces 9 (I think) pulses per rev of the front wheel.
When the reed switch closes, the G/W wire is connected to ground and the voltage drops to zero. When the reed switch opened, the pull up resistor pulls the G/W wire to 12v. This action produces a Square wave on the G/W Wire.
When the pre-programmed number of pulses have elapsed, the relay checks to see if the pre-programmed time has elapsed.
If both the Number of Pulses and Time have elapsed, the relay stops blinking and holds it's contact "Open", so the blinkers extinguish.

The relay now has to know when you, the rider, has reset the blinker switch. This is where the Y/R wire comes in.
Like the G/W wire, the Y/R wire will be held High by a Pull Up Resistor.
When you activate the switch, the Y/R wire is grounded an will have 0v (a Logic Zero). When you deactivate the switch, the Y/R wire is open circuited and it's voltage will rise to 12v (a Logic 1) through the resistor.
When the relay "See's" this Logic 1, it knows that you have canceled the blinkers, so it resets the timer and counter, releases its contact to it's normally closed condition and waits for the whole process to start again.
Of cause, you can cancel at any time.

That is a brief explanation of the Self Canceling Feature.

Gavin

[Tuned forks]

That's some impressive explaining of that feature.  I've often wondered how the system can cancel with regard to distance.  Although I couldn't follow all of your explanation, thank you for sharing.

Joe

[ryanschoebel]

Damn good explanation!

[dlearyous]

I'm in full agreement with the others, a fantastic description.  It took me a few times and some head scratching but that's mainly because of my lack of electrical understanding.

I do however have to regrettedly say that I will most likely no longer be visiting the blog.... I spent the weekend making sure that everything was protected and fixed with the electrical problems I've been having, changed the spark plugs, changed the air filter, changed the oil last week.... and the very same night that a friend of mine and I decided our route for the Norway road trip we've been talking about, someone stole my FJ...  alas... it was a fun run.