Thoughts on Suspension Set-up

[Pat Conlon]

Why do moto GP riders hang off their bikes?

Noel, was your question rhetorical?

[ribbert]

Why do moto GP riders hang off their bikes?

Noel, was your question rhetorical?

Not really, Mike has made this same statement about "hanging off" in his last two posts:

...... it does not enhance cornering ability, it only limits the cornering speeds but will make dragging the undercarraige not only possible but quite easy to do.

It's an interesting subject and I assume he is wanting someone to engage him on that point, so I did.

Noel

[Pat Conlon]

Ok.
My novice opinion is "hanging off" is unnecessary on the street. Just Showboating.
As To your question Why? As understand it....the GP riders do it to keep the rear tire's contact patch as large as possible so they can get on the gas harder and earlier for their corner exit.
However, with the Newer race tires and fine tuned traction control software, this is becoming less practiced....except in the rain.

Mike Ramos is a smooth, fast rider....for sure.

[Mark Olson]

Why do moto GP riders hang off their bikes?

Noel, was your question rhetorical?

Not really, Mike has made this same statement about "hanging off" in his last two posts:

...... it does not enhance cornering ability, it only limits the cornering speeds but will make dragging the undercarriage not only possible but quite easy to do.

It's an interesting subject and I assume he is wanting someone to engage him on that point, so I did.

Noel

Noel , The " Hanging off " Mike is referring to is from the video he posted at the start of this thread .... stating it is the wrong way to hang off and has no advantage other than dragging parts and fully scuffing your tires to look like a hero.

Watch the video again and you will see the rider in question with a unique hang off style.

[Harvy]

Noel.... you wrote:
" If you hung as far as possible off the inside of a bike you could take a very slow corner with the bike vertical."

I might be wrong - frequently am - but I doubt this is right.
The reason the bike goes around the corner is because you lean it in the direction you want to go. If it stays upright, it will go in a straight line; surely?
I you turn the front wheel to the left and maintain the bike vertical, it will naturally fall to the right..... well mine does anyway.

Cheers
Harvy

[Flynt]

take a very slow corner with the bike vertical...

The missing detail is the front wheel will be turned into the corner...  Noel's right.

Frank

[The General]

Noel.... you wrote:
" If you hung as far as possible off the inside of a bike you could take a very slow corner with the bike vertical."

I might be wrong - frequently am - but I doubt this is right.
The reason the bike goes around the corner is because you lean it in the direction you want to go. If it stays upright, it will go in a straight line; surely?
I you turn the front wheel to the left and maintain the bike vertical, it will naturally fall to the right..... well mine does anyway.

Cheers
Harvy

mmmm...I guess the best example (though exaggerated) would be my sidecar. The bike can stay upright with that chair hanging off it, if I do it slow. ...a little faster and it`s leaning a bit to the offside when there`s no weight on the sidecar wheel, but she don`t fall over. (though it`s been close a coupla times!)
So I guess if your arse is as big as my sidecar then it won`t fall over, which of course explains the difference between Hervey`s Handling and Noels!   

[ribbert]

.... which of course explains the difference between Hervey`s Handling and Noels!   

Thank goodness you didn't forget the "and"

Noel

[ribbert]

Noel , The " Hanging off " Mike is referring to is from the video he posted at the start of this thread .... stating it is the wrong way to hang off and has no advantage other than dragging parts and fully scuffing your tires to look like a hero.

Watch the video again and you will see the rider in question with a unique hang off style.

I haven't re watched the video but I accept that's the case in this instance but his previous reference was a generalization.

Noel

[ribbert]

My novice opinion is "hanging off" is unnecessary on the street.

I agree, as is trail braking.

Noel

[PaulG]

Why do moto GP riders hang off their bikes?

Noel, was your question rhetorical?

Ok so things I've seen and heard regarding this topic (from someone who's never dragged a knee...  )

Some of you are probably already familiar with this stuff so bear with me.  If I'm full-o-shit please be kind...

Primarily Law of Inertia - for street riding not an issue - for the track (esp GP) the faster you go the more the bike wants to keep going in a straight line.  At high speeds countersteering is near impossible due to the force required to overcome the inertia of the bike.  It may be done, but try doing it for a 45min race - let alone a 24hr endurance.  By hanging off the bike you are also using the gyroscopic effect of the wheels to steer it.  An example would be to take a bicycle wheel on an axle in your hands held in front of you.  Have someone spin it as fast as they can, then tilt the wheel L/R and you will feel this effect.  You probably did this when you were kids (I did).

Fighter pilots in the single engine propeller era learned this quickly from WW1 until the jet age after WW2.  Using the gyroscopic effect of the engine/propeller they could turn harder in the direction of the propeller spin (usually left?).  This was especially true for the radial engined planes

When Kenny Roberts first started riding the new YZR500 - even before he went to Europe - he complained it wouldn't steer.  He would have to scrape his knees on the ground for it to turn which no-one had done before.  His chief engineer told him "then scrape your knees" - and the rest is history.  In the rain they hang off even more, but the bike is actually leaning less to keep maximum contact patch.  You will also see them do this sometimes when their tires start to go off in the dry.  They try to stay off the edge as much as possible to get the bike upright as soon as possible on the middle of the tire for maximim grip wet or dry.  It was just a couple of races ago when I remember somebody saying (I'm paraphrasing), "constantly riding on the tires edge is an exercise in diminishing returns."

Just remember on GP bikes their contact patch is about the size of a credit card for each tire on super sticky tires that won't even last 100 miles.  For most of us mere mortals that contact patch is even smaller due to our street tires.  If you are capable of dragging your knees either by talent or set-up then have fun.  Just remember that exercise of diminishing returns.

Enough blabbing for now.   

[Harvy]

.... which of course explains the difference between Hervey`s Handling and Noels!   

Thank goodness you didn't forget the "and"

Noel

I second that Noel.

Harvy

[racerrad8]

I agree, as is trail braking.

Noel

I guess that really depends on how hard you ride it into the corner...

I know I do it quite a bit.

Randy - RPM

[ribbert]

I agree, as is trail braking.

Noel

I guess that really depends on how hard you ride it into the corner...

Randy

.....as opposed to how fast you want get through it.

Noel

[racerrad8]

I agree, as is trail braking.

Noel

I guess that really depends on how hard you ride it into the corner...

Randy - RPM

.....as opposed to how fast you want get through it.

Noel

Don't worry, I get through corners plenty fast and sometimes the front wheel even leaves the ground on exit. Some more than others, right Frank?

That is why trail braking works; the front is compressed and the rear end is real light. But you still have the skill and ability to use the rear brake to help slow & turn the bike into the corner. Thus faster corner speeds

Randy - RPM