For what it's worth.

[Mike Ramos]

Thank you Mr. ZOA NOM,

You have just stated the validity of my comment and the experience of others; that is empirically.

Kind regards,

Midget.

[ribbert]

From personal experience with two engines and over 200,000 miles between them, there is nothing better; better air filtration and a better breathing engine.

Ride safe.

Mike, you might have got 200,000 out of the one engine with better filtration (joke)

I'm not sure I agree that it only takes one other person agreeing with you to validate a theory.

I have no interest in rehashing this subject, it has already been established that the forum has one view and the entire automotive industry another and last time I checked they were not reconsidering their position based on your findings.

Testimonials like this are a nonsense, like people who swear by a particular tyre or engine oil being so good it's all they ever use, how on earth would they know without a comparison and how can a single motorist make such a determination when the effects are long term.

Neither you nor I are in a position to make such a claim so I will back the people who are, the tens of thousands of R&D people spending billions of dollars a year to make such findings.
I was the handling and suspension test driver for Ford Product Engineering for 2 years, I know first hand just how extensive the testing process is. Product Engineering is, as the name implies, where every component of the car is tested, as well as the competitors cars. The cars I was driving were a whopping 4 years away from production and there was no re inventing the wheel here, they were mostly just model updates.

When expensive heavy equipment, long range transport, high performance super cars, aircraft or mass produced vehicles start rolling off the production line with foam filters, I'll listen, being the open minded sort of bloke I am.
Until then, I have to go with the numbers.

Noel

[ribbert]

It really made me wonder where Noel rides if he doesn't get anything out of his...

Well ZOA NOM, one can only speculate. I usually average 15,000km a year, no commuting. Last year I did nearly 20,000km. I venture to say I probably ride more unsealed roads than most, I seek them out. I ride in all weather conditions and only ride in the country and do not ride in traffic.

It is possibly due to the clean air we have here, straight off the Polar cap after travelling thousands of miles over pristine ocean.
Maybe it's the high altitude I ride at. The air is too thin to be caught by the filter.
My compressions might be so low from poor filtering that it doesn't suck much air any more.
It could be that my bike is so shiny the dirt is deflected before it can get anywhere near the filter.
Or, perhaps my bike is just "Green" and recycles airborne contaminants, incinerating them and returning them to the atmosphere as harmless gas.

Or, seriously, I have no idea and will not be losing any sleep over it. The engine is a consumable, just like brake pads or tyres, when it wears out I'll just fix it.

Noel

[TexasDave]

From personal experience with two engines and over 200,000 miles between them, there is nothing better; better air filtration and a better breathing engine.

Ride safe.

When expensive heavy equipment, long range transport, high performance super cars, aircraft or mass produced vehicles start rolling off the production line with foam filters, I'll listen, being the open minded sort of bloke I am.
Until then, I have to go with the numbers.

Noel

I have to go with the numbers also. The manufacturers of mass produced vehicles depend on selling numbers of said vehicles to stay in business. They have to sell a number to new customers and a number to previous customers who have worn out their previous vehicles. To sell a greater number of vehicles it is not in their best interest to put the best air filters on their product and have said vehicles last longer. To maximize profits it is in their best interest to use the cheapest, most cost effective but adequate air filter--not the best. There are a number of air filters out there better than OEM.  Dave

[ZOA NOM]

It really made me wonder where Noel rides if he doesn't get anything out of his...

Well ZOA NOM, one can only speculate. I usually average 15,000km a year, no commuting. Last year I did nearly 20,000km. I venture to say I probably ride more unsealed roads than most, I seek them out. I ride in all weather conditions and only ride in the country and do not ride in traffic.

It is possibly due to the clean air we have here, straight off the Polar cap after travelling thousands of miles over pristine ocean.
Maybe it's the high altitude I ride at. The air is too thin to be caught by the filter.
My compressions might be so low from poor filtering that it doesn't suck much air any more.
It could be that my bike is so shiny the dirt is deflected before it can get anywhere near the filter.
Or, perhaps my bike is just "Green" and recycles airborne contaminants, incinerating them and returning them to the atmosphere as harmless gas.

Or, seriously, I have no idea and will not be losing any sleep over it. The engine is a consumable, just like brake pads or tyres, when it wears out I'll just fix it.

Noel

The air is too thin to be caught by the filter? Why would you want to catch air with the filter? Don't you want air to enter your carbs?

I really love the way your mind works.

[Mark Olson]

Hey Noel ,  don't you have foam filters on your bike . 

Since so little dirt comes out when you clean them I wonder how often you clean them .
You are so lucky to have such clean thin air where you ride it must play hell with your jetting.

I clean my unipods at 5k miles and dirt is present when I wash them out. It is a shame I don't live in your world where no dirt builds up on the filters.

You mentioned manufacturers don't use the foam filter due to r/d and engineering longevity warranty concerns but you yourself have them on your FJ. 

Are you just lonely where you are and feel the need to start a thread and then argue with everyone who posts. 

It's ok, we are here for you.    

[FJscott]

I have Uni-Pods on my FJ. my reasoning for them wasn't quality of filtration or increased flow but from desire to lose the stock airbox.
when cleaning the air filter I always swipe the bores of the Carbs with a clean white rag or paper towel to look for evidence of dirt getting past the filter. this habit comes from decades of dirt bike riding in dusty areas. To date I haven't seen evidence in the Carbs that dirt is getting past the Uni Pods.

for what its worth....that airbox will never go back on

Scott

[ribbert]

Hey Noel ,  don't you have foam filters on your bike . 

Since so little dirt comes out when you clean them I wonder how often you clean them .
You are so lucky to have such clean thin air where you ride it must play hell with your jetting.

I clean my unipods at 5k miles and dirt is present when I wash them out. It is a shame I don't live in your world where no dirt builds up on the filters.

You mentioned manufacturers don't use the foam filter due to r/d and engineering longevity warranty concerns but you yourself have them on your FJ. 

Are you just lonely where you are and feel the need to start a thread and then argue with everyone who posts. 

It's ok, we are here for you.    

Haha Mark, yes I do have foam filters on my bike. I love the induction noise and have 2 plans for the space it has freed up. Frequent removal and refitting is not an issue as we are lucky in that we can still buy unadulterated fuel here.
I use them for the above reasons only (mostly the noise), I am not really interested in the long term quality of the filtration they offer.

If I was that worried about engine longevity, I simply wouldn't ride it. Every minute your engine is running, every mile you cover, and particularly every cold start is killing you motor and taking life off the other end. I would also keep the revs low and avoid full throttle, where do you draw the line between preserving it and using it?

If I planned a 600 km ride tomorrow and then decided against it on the basis of the wear and tear it will add to the bike and the mileage it will reduce it's life span by I have just extended it's life by 600km
but where's the fun in that.
As I said a day or so back, engines are consumables and bikes are toys, just ride them however or whenever you feel like and worry about it when it happens. The fact is, most of us will never wear our engines out anyway regardless of the filters we use or the oil we run.

Hell, I'm on my 3rd motor at only 130,000km, the 4th one is about to be refitted and  there is a 5th one in the making, they don't last long enough to care what sort of filtering they have!
The first one got cooked, the second one blew a base gasket and crankshaft seal, the third one was a spare eBay motor (current) the 4th will be the bored and rebuilt 2nd motor and the 5th will be a big bore.

None of this though has any bearing on what technically provides the best filtration, being the topic at hand.

How many of you foam filter advocates have converted you cars over to foam, those engines are damned expensive and tend to do much higher mileages.

Thanks Mark, I appreciate you being there for me, it gives me great comfort  .

Noel

[Flynt]

How many of you foam filter advocates have converted you cars over to foam...

I've used ITG foam filters on all of the z engines Dave Rebello has built for me (3 now) at the recommendation of Dave himself.  He's built thousands of engines for racing, street performance, and daily driver use...  so just about as qualified as they come to judge empirically which filtering technology works best IMHO.  Admittedly I don't put lots of miles on these toys, so I can't personally say much other than they do get VERY dirty between oil changes (3K mile intervals).

BTW - if you don't care about engine life, run velocity stacks with no filters at all...  this give you the best sound and the best performance (Wiz made 3-4 more Hp up top with this setup on the dyno).  In your environment the filters are likely not required anyway (no dirt is being captured, so why use them?)

Frank

[Mark Olson]

Quote From Noel :"None of this though has any bearing on what technically provides the best filtration, being the topic at hand."

There we go , now we are getting somewhere ...

Well it seems the group collective has determined that the UNI-POD foam filters provide sufficient air filtering with less restriction for maximum power . They are also easy to install,get rid of the air box , look cool and make a bitchin intake noise when you pin it.

That said , Are they the best at filtration? probably not . A paper filter with non-woven cotton and an adhesive surface inside a closed air box would filter more particles of dirt. It would also restrict air flow and decrease power.

The foam style is not used in factory cars because people have a hard enough time changing their engine oil on time and if they had to clean and re-oil a filter too it would be another warranty problem for the dealership.

Like Noel Said" engine is a consumable and wears out "  If you abuse it then it will fail sooner than later . 

[ZOA NOM]

That said , Are they the best at filtration? probably not . A paper filter with non-woven cotton and an adhesive surface inside a closed air box would filter more particles of dirt. It would also restrict air flow and decrease power.

Like Noel Said" engine is a consumable and wears out "  If you abuse it then it will fail sooner than later . 

Then they would resemble Noel's "air catchers", which would be better? I'm confused...

[Mark Olson]

That said , Are they the best at filtration? probably not . A paper filter with non-woven cotton and an adhesive surface inside a closed air box would filter more particles of dirt. It would also restrict air flow and decrease power.

Like Noel Said" engine is a consumable and wears out "  If you abuse it then it will fail sooner than later . 

Then they would resemble Noel's "air catchers", which would be better? I'm confused...

Rick,  you are ok using the unipods .  Just remember to clean and re-oil  them at the same time you change your engine oil.

[ZOA NOM]

That said , Are they the best at filtration? probably not . A paper filter with non-woven cotton and an adhesive surface inside a closed air box would filter more particles of dirt. It would also restrict air flow and decrease power.

Like Noel Said" engine is a consumable and wears out "  If you abuse it then it will fail sooner than later . 

Then they would resemble Noel's "air catchers", which would be better? I'm confused...

Rick,  you are ok using the unipods .  Just remember to clean and re-oil  them at the same time you change your engine oil.

Thanks Mark, I forgot the "tongue-in-cheek" emoticon in my previous post. Noel is like a rat on a cheeto when he thinks he's right. Kinda quiet when he gets it thrown back at him.

[Steve_in_Florida]

XXX is like a rat on a cheeto when he thinks he's right. Kinda quiet when he gets it thrown back at him.

C'mon, we're all like that. Selective attention, too.

Example:

     Fellow Attendee At Rally: "Hey Steve, remember that post that PROVED you're an ASS?"

     Steve (Me): "Nope!"



Steve

[Mike Ramos]

Good morning,

I've been away and haven't had a chance to get to a computer.

Noel, as noted by the picture of the dirt that came out of the air filter, they do indeed work & work well.

I see you ride about half the mileage that I do, in fact less than half, and much the same type of riding.  Perhaps my engines are longer lived because of better maintenance - while I do not abuse the engines I do use them hard and in any ambient conditions  [to support such a statement, I suggest you review the last video which I posted, and others as well].   

The '91 FJ that I had I purchased with 27,000 miles on it and sold it with 170,000 plus miles and it still ran very well, it is still used as a daily commuter and no doubt the miles continue to add up - so with about 150,000 documented miles using foam filters it is empirical that they work very well.

Yes, engines do wear out, however there are aviation overhaul manuals that state well filtered air and clean oil contribute most to the long engine life - and these are from the 1930's (!) so Noel you are not stating anything new.  In fact, with your claimed long time experience, it is interesting you choose to ignore such sound, basic & long known knowledge.

As far as industry using other mediums of filtration, I believe that Texas Dave's statement is correct and wide ranging.  For example, K & N does a robust business selling after market filters - even in the trucking industry changing out a prescribed filters is expedient.  However, check the different fleets and see what type of oil they are using to protect their very expensive engines and often it varies from company to company.

Oil?  Uh oh, that is a horse of a different color...!

Mr. ZOA NOM, I hope to meet you at a Rally some day; we seem to be in agreement on a variety of topics...

Stay in good humor,

Midget.