Clutch replacement advice

[Jeff0308]

The times just about here for a new clutch. I'm trying to prolong the agony until the weather turns. Skipping gears and not changing down until at a stand still. So far so good but reckon at most 1000kms left in it. Been on the road every day for the last few weeks and really nursing her along. Going to the city and back everyday is slowly wearing it down.  Wanting to wait until it clocks 85k so the oil can be changed as well. Also the shims need doing and hopefully sort the CARBI issue once and for all, however saying that it idles smooth most of the time, just seems to idle very high at times for no reason. I know 2 diaphrams are crook. The idle never stays consistent. Starts first time though? Thinking maybe an air leak?   So in all it's going to be a major fix, hence the prolonging the agony. My question is, what parts usually need changing in the clutch? Fibres/ steels or both. I only want to do it once and do it well in regards to the total job. Also I heard someone mention something about a drum?  I was considering having a go at it myself but as so much needs doing I'm considering farming it out? Any suggestions on clutch parts or is it a matter of pull it apart and see. I know Randy sells the bits, however if a bike shop does it and needs the parts ASAP the time frame for shipping could be an issue? Trying to forward plan the job. JEFF  .PS..moment of madness last week ..... I  Had a look at a bike shop last week at a new Triumph trophy SE and a really nice expolice BMW 1200 twin What's the thoughts on these. have thought of upgrading however at this stage it's just thoughts.

[Arnie]

Jeff,

Call me, 0419 034 225, or PM me your number and I'll call you.

Be glad to discuss your maintainence issues and offer both advise and help if needed.

Arnie

[Mark Olson]

inspect fiber discs for wear and measure thickness.
inspect steel plates for bluing and wear measure thickness.
inspect cage for wear , will be notches and roughness where tabs of fibers and steels make contact.
if all within spec you can reuse them.

remove anti-rattle spring and spacer and replace with a full size fiber disc.( the new fiber will take the place of the old skinny fiber and the rattle spring and spacer .)
if you cleaned fibers and steels soak them in engine oil for 12 hrs or overnight.
reassemble clutch pack and install a new clutch diaphragm spring . (use fjr1300 spring same part as fj and cheaper, or get from rpm Randy)

With the extra full size disc you only need 1 clutch spring and you will save your left hand the cramps .
you can add the used stock spring directly on top of the new one if you want too, but I have tested this mod and unless you are planning on doing burnouts 1 spring is fine with the extra disc . (the clutch master from an fj1300 will work with a 2 spring setup with out killing your grip. while keeping the stock appearance.)

I know RPM sells just one disc fiber as well as new spring so you don't have to buy a whole new kit .

this can be done without draining the oil in the motor if you just put the fj on the sidestand and are careful with the clutch cover gasket . If you order a gasket too then the old one will not break (murphys law.)

I hope this has been clear ... Good Luck. 

[Arnie]

Yep!  Exactly what Mark said. 

[ribbert]

Yep!  Exactly what Mark said. 

Arnie, have you removed the anti chatter spring on your own bike?

Noel

[Arnie]

Yep!  Exactly what Mark said. 

Arnie, have you removed the anti chatter spring on your own bike?

Noel

Yes, a while ago. Why?

[ribbert]

Yep!  Exactly what Mark said. 

Arnie, have you removed the anti chatter spring on your own bike?

Noel

Yes, a while ago. Why?

A while back Mark (Monkey) asked how long it took for the clutch chatter to go away after removing the wire. I responded that I was still waiting after 30,000kms. A number of other people then piped up experiencing the same the same issue.
It seems to be, not unsurprisingly, that if you remove the anti chatter spring, well, the clutch chatters.

I also wonder about the wear the chatter causes to the dogs on the basket.

Removing it on my bike was of the few things I've done without thinking it through first, and then wished I hadn't as it wasn't necessary and the loss of smoothness when engaging annoys me.

The original clutch on my bike lasted 85,000km and even then only slipped slightly under the most demanding circumstances - full throttle, high revs, high gears, fast gear changes.
Clutches are a consumable and that sort of mileage is considered pretty good. I'm sure if I'd owned it from new it would have lasted longer.

A well ridden bike only wears a clutch moving it from standstill, and drag starts and Legends cars aside, this is not much work in normal operation. Doesn't matter how you ride once mobile, the wear on the clutch is negligible.

I have read here many times of owners with slipping clutches reporting back that the fibre plates are in spec. Unless it has been allowed to slip excessively or the clutch has been seriously abused, they always will be. Unlike a dry clutch, the wearing down of the plates is not what makes them slip.

.........remove anti-rattle spring and spacer and replace with a full size fiber disc.( the new fiber will take the place of the old skinny fiber and the rattle spring and spacer .)

Mark, the forum is very heavily biased towards mods but not everyone wants to go done that path, Jeff just wants his clutch not to slip. The original one lasted 85K, so will the next one.
Unless a visual inspection shows evidence of some serious heating or abuse, a set of fibres and spring while you're in there, and in 99% of cases, you're good to go.

Having put 90,000 hard kms on the FJ I don't buy the "weak clutch" theory, but introducing synthetic oil to old clutch plates will more than likely cause slippage, you might get away with it on new plates though.

I don't believe increasing the area of the clutch by one half of one plate makes much difference, the FJ clutch is not that marginal.

Even at high mileage, I could bang my bike through from 3rd to 4th to 5th at redline at full throttle with virtually no feed in and as much instant bite and reserve grip as you could expect from any clutch.

The notion (not yours Mark) that these great beasts need to be tamed with heavy duty coil pressure plate conversions, double springs, extra plates, different M/C's etc is nonsense.

Mark, I agree with everything you say, just not the bit about the beefed up clutch.

Noel

[movenon]

All I can add is replacing the pressure spring, clutch disks and plates (if needed) is one of the more easy things to do on an FJ.  Have a new side cover gasket on hand when you do it.  

As for mods I understand,  but you might consider a new clutch spring.  IHMO do not double up the clutch springs (another mod that some do).  Here is a link with some good information on clutches.  It is worth a good read even if you do no mods or changes.  

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0

Very easy to do. Looks harder in the pictures than it is.  Have a new gasket on hand, don't over TQ the bolts and pay attention to which holes they came out from.  But there is a picture of the bolt layout in the thread and TQ values.  You do it without draining your engine oil (done with the bike on the side stand) but it is nice to do the job just before a normal oil change if you can.  That way you end up with new clutches and fresh oil.

George

[FJmonkey]

Just for clarification on my experience with installing a new clutch. The thin wire being referred to as an anti-chatter part looks more like an assembly feature from the factory. A few members have open their clutch packs and found pieces of it, so some of the wire was missing and else where in the engine. I removed it and have not noticed any issues as a result. I also chose to swap out the thin clutch steel and fiber for the full size since I was replacing the entire clutch pack. What I found installed was not OEM, the steels and fibers were thinner allowing one extra steel and one fiber. I did not like this clutch, it stuck all the time, shifting was tougher, harder to find neutral etc... I noticed with the new OEM clutch I would get a shudder when engaging the clutch. This as I suspected, work itself out after a few thousand miles, so the clutch is now smooth and predictable. I put a new single clutch spring in and it works well. I have no desire to double up the spring when one works properly. I also replaced the OEM shifter with the RPM roller bearing shift kit. between the new clutch and shift kit, the shifter works butter smooth now. The OEM clutch works really well, Yamaha got this right.

[Mark Olson]

.........remove anti-rattle spring and spacer and replace with a full size fiber disc.( the new fiber will take the place of the old skinny fiber and the rattle spring and spacer .)

Mark, the forum is very heavily biased towards mods but not everyone wants to go done that path, Jeff just wants his clutch not to slip. The original one lasted 85K, so will the next one.
Unless a visual inspection shows evidence of some serious heating or abuse, a set of fibres and spring while you're in there, and in 99% of cases, you're good to go.

Having put 90,000 hard kms on the FJ I don't buy the "weak clutch" theory, but introducing synthetic oil to old clutch plates will more than likely cause slippage, you might get away with it on new plates though.

I don't believe increasing the area of the clutch by one half of one plate makes much difference, the FJ clutch is not that marginal.


Mark, I agree with everything you say, just not the bit about the beefed up clutch.

Noel

Noel, I will also agree with you to a point.   My question to you is how much do you weigh? how much extra weight do you carry on your FJ? Luggage, gear , passenger?
Your sprocket size will also come into Question.

The FJ clutch is sufficient in stock form for many riders who are not carrying a lot of weight. When you get to about 200-250 lbs of rider and gear the clutch will slip in higher rpm ranges . This is noticed first in the 2nd to 3rd shift under full power.
Some riders do not operate in this range and will not have any slip until many miles have worn out the fibers and steels.

Jeff had asked about the 2 spring modification and I gave the best solution based on my experience.

At one point I tipped the scales at 375 lbs. The clutch would slip under high rpm shifts at first and then slip when in gear under throttle application.
This may seem like a lot of weight for a motorcycle but if you add up rider,passenger and some bags of gear it would equal a 200lb rider 150lb girlfriend/wife and 25 lbs of gear.
1. I installed new fibers and steels and new clutch spring and I would still slip on high rpm shifts/pulling a grade. I gave the new parts time to settle 2000 miles.
2. Next I added a second spring and now the clutch held unless I added a passenger and lots of gear to the FJ ...with myself 375, wife 120 and gear 55 =550lbs / sliporama .
3. Looked into a barnett setup but did not go that route as someone on the forum came up with the added fiber disc fix . So I added the extra fiber and now I have no slippage.
4. I added the FJR1300 clutch master to deal with the harsh pull of the 2springs still installed. When riding my hand would get tired if shifting a bunch so this helped a lot.

When a fellow FJ rider who had just been living with the slippy clutch asked for my help , we decided to experiment with how much extra was needed.
1st we just added a new spring and it was a little better but still slipped in extreme riding . Next we added the full size fiber with just one spring and that was the fix.

So for all the fj riders out there , If you are not a fat bastard you can simply put the full size fiber in with a new spring and problem is solved . no need to double up springs .

Now if you are a wild child hooligan you can actually add 2 full size fibers into the pack with some machine work and 2 springs .. this will give you a bad ass clutch worthy of nitrous blasts and smokey burnouts.

In synopsis : The stock FJ clutch is hampered by the weight of the rider so It is Marginal to begin with in my opinion.  Add the full size fiber in place of the skinny one and you will be fine. It really does make a difference.

P.S. I have often wondered if clutch slip is a design flaw built in to prevent 2nd gear damage. Because once you clutch stops slipping you may/will start jumping out of 2nd .

Many of you will have a different experience due to your weight , gears, riders ect.  Myself I have dropped 100 lbs so I may take the 2nd spring out and see what happens.     

[mr blackstock]

G'day Jeff

While I cannot offer an opinion on the clutch discussion, I can offer a tip if you want to replace your carby diaphragms.  I bought a set of 4 of JBM, easy to install and the bike improved straight away, idled sweet.  They are $20 each, postage is good.  I have had them installed for around 2 or 3 years without a single complaint. 
http://jbmindustries.com/

Genuine ones are also available, cost more, but it depends on your budget too.

If you search for "diaphragm" in the forum discussions you will get lots of info.

Cheers, Gareth

[fj johnnie]

I removed the anti chatter spring etc and added the full size disk as per RPM' s suggestion. The chatter is very minimal to say the least. Usually when cold. After a couple months it doesn't chatter any more. I was told that with a larger much gripper wheel, the stock clutch can slip due to slight vibrations made possible by the small anti chatter spring.

[Arnie]

Ribbert said, " I could bang my bike through from 3rd to 4th to 5th at redline at full throttle with virtually no feed in and as much instant bite and reserve grip as you could expect from any clutch."

I want to know, where you could do this?

I haven't noticed any slip or chatter since removing the wire and replacing the 1/2 plate with a full one.
I did have some drag which made finding neutral difficult for the first 4-5000kms, but that has gone now too.

Arnie

[ribbert]

I was told that with a larger much gripper wheel, the stock clutch can slip due to slight vibrations made possible by the small anti chatter spring.

I reckon there's just enough room left in the neck of Pat's bottle to fit this one in.



A standard FJ does not have a traction problem, even with shitty tyres.

Noel

[ribbert]

Ribbert said, " I could bang my bike through from 3rd to 4th to 5th at redline at full throttle with virtually no feed in and as much instant bite and reserve grip as you could expect from any clutch."

I want to know, where you could do this?

Arnie

Haha Arnie. While most of the times I do this are spurr of the moment and can be anywhere, there are a few regular spots, several of them very near your house!

Mount Wallace-Ballark Rd, Ballan-Meredith Rd, Glenmore Rd.

There are thousands of kilometres of roads in Vic where you are more likely to come across the Second Coming than a Police car. Just gotta stay off those main roads. I seek out the roads that exist only to service the rural community. They see no traffic other than farmers getting from one paddock to the next or in to town of Fridays.
This is what I love about a GPS and Google maps, a whole new world of riding. I have said this many times, I have discovered more new roads in the last 5 years than I found in the previous 40.

I have a favourite road much nearer to home should I feel the need to run it through the gears and get a dose of top end rush. It is a private road, signposted as such, leading into quarries for a brickworks. It has been made to allow for heavy trucks travelling in both directions at the same time, it's dead straight, beautifully paved, slightly undulating, billiard table smooth etc. I use it often for "testing" purposes, safe from the Law on private land, it is never in use on the weekends and there are no concealed areas and it's long enough to ring the FJ out. Being a familiar road I also get to use the brakes increasingly late which is also a lot of fun.

Perfect? It appears not so.

This was all good and well until last weekend when listening to a radio show and the Police Commissioner for Road Safety himself said that a private road that can be accessed by the public is the same as a public road when it comes to road rules.

So, all this time I thought I could give them the finger if caught, turns out to be not quite the case.

Technically then, hooning in your driveway (unless you have gates) becomes an offense.

What's next? taking a piss at he back of your shed in the middle of the night becomes "Urinating in a Public Place" (if you don't have gates)

The bottom line is, unless the public cannot enter your driveway, for the purpose of applying road rules, it is deemed to be a public road.

In Victoria, "Loss of traction" (simply spinning your wheels) will see your car or bike impounded. So, technically, you could be booked for doing a wheelie in your own driveway.

OK. they're not going to harass you on your own land, but, they could if they want to!

FFS, go and catch some criminals.

Noel