removing lower frame rails under engine

[krusty]

WOW. What can I say. My initial enquiry sure elicited a heap of info.
Go the answer I needed then lots of good stuff. I'm now a little hesitant on removing these rails as there is a lot of surface corrosion on this bike (salt air). Luckily though, so far, I've found it to be supeficial. Will need to be careful.
A few days ago I had to remove the discs off the front wheel. Those bolts were TIGHT allen heads. The first one I tried I didn't get the key in straight and slightly burred it. This is where the whacking came in, it reshaped the socket so that I could get a good purchase on it. Eventually I needed heat along with the whack to get these bolts out and I found they had copious amounts of blue Loctite on them.
Thanks guys. Merry Christmas. It's Christmas day today I'm still working on the bike.

[Burns]

Effective techniques for stubborn bolt/screw removal involve the same principle as a hammer driver but applied more efficiently, both in twisting action and impact.

To answer your specific question, I would use a good fitting socket and long bar, lean heavily on the bar and belt the knuckle on the bar (directly over the socket) with the hammer. That's it.
In general the idea is to apply torque while hitting, just the same as the hammer driver is designed to do doesn't do very well.

The problem I see with hammer drivers it the design dulls the impact, you are hitting a spring and spiral drive. The most underestimated part of loosening bolts is the hammer blow.

Only last night, and with this fresh in my mind, I had some Allen heads that reached the point of bending the tool without cracking, a couple of sharp blows from a hammer and they released easily. It is the sharpness of the blow, not the force of it, that breaks the join.

The sort of blow needed cannot be delivered through a wooden mallet, nylon hammer, or plastic screw driver handle. It's like dropping something or falling onto a concrete floor vs a timber floor. They're both hard but concrete will break or dent a lot more things or hurt a lot more.

Good purchase can often be had on a chewed up nut or bolt by hammering on a socket of a different type, such as Whitworth or AF onto a metric nut. There is often a size just a whisker smaller.
If beyond hope, vice grips are not a really good choice because the tension is fixed. I  prefer a smallish set of plumbers stilsons that tighten as force is applied, the harder you turn, the tighter they get.

Steel shaft screw drivers are a favourite, with steel shaft extending through to the tip of the handle. These deliver a great blow to a screw head. This whole process is useless unless the piece you are hitting is solid. It won't work with carbies sitting in your lap or on handle bar switches, too springy, and once again, the sharpness is lost from the blow. A direct hammer blow to PH screws also closes over the head of the screw a little making for a better fit.

The right screw driver is essential. I have PH's by the dozen and the fit varies, but a couple of them grip like there is no tomorrow and this makes a huge difference.

Heat is something I never need to resort to on modern vehicles (that's a relative term and applies to anything under 60 yo) and is a last resort on very old, poorly stored or unused vehicles.

Not butchering the head makes life a lot easier. You should be able to feel when a tool is about to let go and if it hasn't released at that point, STOP, while you have something left to work with, and move onto another technique.

Using the free play in the knuckle of your long bar can provide a shock that will help loosen bolts that aren't too tight, either by hitting with the palm of your hand or a hammer

The degree of success of all these methods is, as Burns said, largely a matter of feel and experience. I'm sure it is, but there is only one way to get it and I have found these techniques to work well 1000's of times while always looking to improve them.

Good grip, plenty of torque and a few well place hammer blows will release pretty much anything you are likely to come across on the FJ.

If you are thinking that's exactly what a hammer driver does, it's not, it's what it's designed to do but fails to deliver.
If anyone wishes to discuss a specific problem in more detail I am happy to help if I can. If you are just looking for something to pick holes in and generally be a nuisance don't bother. If you have something constructive to add, great.

As testament to the effectiveness of the hammer blow (other than last nights experience) I was recently brought an old engine that attempts to remove the flywheel and pulley on had destroyed several pullers. A tyre lever (another favourite tool) under each side with a lot of pressure and one almighty belt with a hammer in the centre (on the shaft it was mounted to) and the thing just popped off.

This is just a broad, in principle suggestion for stubborn bolt/screw removal as each case can be different and has it's own variations in the best way to attack it.

Preserving the head and knowing when what you are doing is not working and stopping before you destroy it is always going to make the job easier.

Snapped off ezy-outs are about as bad as gets, but that's a whole other topic.

Noel


I cut and pasted these tips and put it in my "Tech tips" folder. Thanks.

I would only add (1 cent's worth/statement of the obvious), that penetrating oils should be applied and given some soak time before resorting to brute force.

[krusty]

OK its time for an update on the frame rails. Since my initial post on this topic I have successfully removed both. They've now been wire brushed back to clean metal and repainted with Rustguard Aluminum. I also removed the big alloy plates each side that hold the engine rails and foot pegs etc. A mate polished these for me as a favour. They're all back together now. With all this complete it's almost ready for a road test (apart from lighting problem in another thread).
It had a stuck clutch so today with the above done, it was time to tackle it. This turned out a little easier than expected. I ran the motor up to operating temp to get the oil nice and hot and then, with the bike on the main stand, selected first gear. Next, while holding the clutch lever in and with the rear wheel spinning, started jabbing the rear brake. After about half a dozen attempts the wheel stopped spinning. Clutch freed, yippee. Shifted in and out of gear a few times and all is good.
Its time for its first run up the road but before that I need to secure the front fender properly as a couple of the mounting tabs are broken off - typical with FJs. Wont be today though due to time constraint. We have a VJMC fish & chip ride to Patonga tomorrow on my new 1200 so maybe after that in the afternoon.

[TexasDave]

Great job on the frame rails--they look like new. Makes the clutch cover look shoddy now. Next time you change oil pull it off and remove the center for polish and the outside for paint.  Dave

[ribbert]

It had a stuck clutch so today with the above done, it was time to tackle it. This turned out a little easier than expected. I ran the motor up to operating temp to get the oil nice and hot and then, with the bike on the main stand, selected first gear. Next, while holding the clutch lever in and with the rear wheel spinning, started jabbing the rear brake. After about half a dozen attempts the wheel stopped spinning. Clutch freed, yippee. Shifted in and out of gear a few times and all is good.

Krusty, what you have described is normal. Try and start the bike in gear cold and it will lurch forward. However, start it in neutral and select first a few moments later and all is well.

With the rear wheel raised, it is normal for the back wheel to spin in gear, it is normal for it to do it in neutral. Without load on the wheel the thickness of the oil, especially when cold, is enough to spin the gearbox and transmit drive to the wheel.

If you were to repeat the scenario you describe, I think you will find it does the same thing every time.

IMO the brake jabbing was not he solution but the time spent with the motor running while doing it.

If I try and start my bike cold in gear it will lurch forward. Every other start of the day in gear is fine, it's just the first one of the day when it's cold.

I believe they all do it, certainly all the ones I've ridden do.

Noel

[krusty]

Thanks Noel. What I was describing is freeing the clutch after a 12 year lay up.

[ADHD Perfected]

On removing broke off bolts best thing Ive ever used is a torx bit. Drill hole just enough to where the teeth wont go into hole and knock it in with a hammer, the bit expands at the end of cut helping to lock it in and beating it in loosens the threads. I have extracted rung head bolts doing this with head still on (try that with an easy out). Ive used carquest brand torx for this but snap on is less likely to slip or shear.

[gumby302ho]

 Just want to add my two cents about stubborn fasteners. All my shit is old, our winters are chalked full of salt and the underneath of old vehicles become like the titanic if not oiled and looked after. So for years I have worked on old rusted rotting vehicles keeping them barely alive by fighting with rusty rounded sheared seized cracked bolts nuts and studs, brake lines, bleeders etc etc,curse words were always muttered and I was most often on my back looking up as the shit falls into your face, some of you are now saying " been there done that "! I hate to admit I still do it as I dont have a garage that holds a vehicle. Anyway here is the two cents. Because of rust and seized fasteners heat won for me over a well place blow from my favorite hammer and finally the meat of this post. The trick when using heat is to use Bee's Wax, heat the area up and put Bee's Wax or even a candle to the area and the fastener will suck the bee's wax in like soldering a copper pipe. I was told this by a retired mechanic years ago and has worked great when it can be used! If your using heat next time, try bee's wax, it works great! Canadian engineering at its best. 

[ADHD Perfected]

Just want to add my two cents about stubborn fasteners. All my shit is old, our winters are chalked full of salt and the underneath of old vehicles become like the titanic if not oiled and looked after. So for years I have worked on old rusted rotting vehicles keeping them barely alive by fighting with rusty rounded sheared seized cracked bolts nuts and studs, brake lines, bleeders etc etc,curse words were always muttered and I was most often on my back looking up as the shit falls into your face, some of you are now saying " been there done that "! I hate to admit I still do it as I dont have a garage that holds a vehicle. Anyway here is the two cents. Because of rust and seized fasteners heat won for me over a well place blow from my favorite hammer and finally the meat of this post. The trick when using heat is to use Bee's Wax, heat the area up and put Bee's Wax or even a candle to the area and the fastener will suck the bee's wax in like soldering a copper pipe. I was told this by a retired mechanic years ago and has worked great when it can be used! If your using heat next time, try bee's wax, it works great! Canadian engineering at its best. 

Will have to try that,being 200 yds off I95 I have a fair amount of vehicles that come from up north especially campers (yee haw). Thanks.

[ribbert]

On removing broke off bolts best thing Ive ever used is a torx bit. Drill hole just enough to where the teeth wont go into hole and knock it in with a hammer, the bit expands at the end of cut helping to lock it in and beating it in loosens the threads. I have extracted rung head bolts doing this with head still on (try that with an easy out). Ive used carquest brand torx for this but snap on is less likely to slip or shear.

That is a really excellent tip and worthy of more acknowledgement than it got.

It is basically the same principle as what I have found to be the best purpose made extractors, uniform fluted shank to spread the load over the entire bit, and I'm a big believer in hammer blows.

Excellent!

Noel