removing lower frame rails under engine

[markmartin]

Perfect, thanks once again. I just want to make sure they are not sheered off so if I find the heads still intact I'm going to leave well enough alone and ride with a clear mind next summer knowing that my frame isn't coming apart!

Happy trails,

Mark M

[Pat Conlon]

Yea, if the heads are there just snug them, if they don't move you're ok....for now.

[ribbert]

I would use butane heat on the frame and a impact driver to get them broken loose.

Pat, as I have mentioned before, I work on pre-war cars and some up to 90+ years old. Many have not been in use for decades and some pulled out of paddocks. Removing difficult bolts and studs is a process I have been working at for years.

Butane does not get hot enough!

I got tired of paying bottle rental (nearly $400/year) on the oxy/acetaline and ditched it for a year. Bad choice.

If it comes out with butane heat, it was going to come out easy anyway.

I also reckon impact drivers are much the same, if they loosen the bolt, it was never that tight. They are a tool specifically designed to strip Philips heads.
There are many methods using standard workshop tools that are far more effective at loosening stubborn bolts and screws.

Noel

[the fan]

On the little bolt in a big hole topic... I don't think that there is any mysterious purpose here. As Ribbert said there is often a loose tolerance in these things and from my experience every bike I have ever worked on with a similar motor cradle has had alot of slop. I believe this is intended for ease of assembly due to differences in frames and tolerance stackup.

On my CB900F the frame cradle (one side) had holes so loose that I sourced bronze bushings to take up the slack. It took some time with heat and a big ass hammer/bar to get the cradle to fit back on, but the handling of the bike inproved noticeably.

[Pat Conlon]

....There are many methods using standard workshop tools that are far more effective at loosening stubborn bolts and screws.

Ok Noel, your turn...what would you recommend on frozen soft button head frame bolts?   I gave it my best shot....step up to the plate.

[ribbert]

....There are many methods using standard workshop tools that are far more effective at loosening stubborn bolts and screws.

Ok Noel, your turn...what would you recommend on frozen soft button head frame bolts?   I gave it my best shot....step up to the plate.

Effective techniques for stubborn bolt/screw removal involve the same principle as a hammer driver but applied more efficiently, both in twisting action and impact.

To answer your specific question, I would use a good fitting socket and long bar, lean heavily on the bar and belt the knuckle on the bar (directly over the socket) with the hammer. That's it.
In general the idea is to apply torque while hitting, just the same as the hammer driver is designed to do doesn't do very well.

The problem I see with hammer drivers it the design dulls the impact, you are hitting a spring and spiral drive. The most underestimated part of loosening bolts is the hammer blow.

Only last night, and with this fresh in my mind, I had some Allen heads that reached the point of bending the tool without cracking, a couple of sharp blows from a hammer and they released easily. It is the sharpness of the blow, not the force of it, that breaks the join.

The sort of blow needed cannot be delivered through a wooden mallet, nylon hammer, or plastic screw driver handle. It's like dropping something or falling onto a concrete floor vs a timber floor. They're both hard but concrete will break or dent a lot more things or hurt a lot more.

Good purchase can often be had on a chewed up nut or bolt by hammering on a socket of a different type, such as Whitworth or AF onto a metric nut. There is often a size just a whisker smaller.
If beyond hope, vice grips are not a really good choice because the tension is fixed. I  prefer a smallish set of plumbers stilsons that tighten as force is applied, the harder you turn, the tighter they get.

Steel shaft screw drivers are a favourite, with steel shaft extending through to the tip of the handle. These deliver a great blow to a screw head. This whole process is useless unless the piece you are hitting is solid. It won't work with carbies sitting in your lap or on handle bar switches, too springy, and once again, the sharpness is lost from the blow. A direct hammer blow to PH screws also closes over the head of the screw a little making for a better fit.

The right screw driver is essential. I have PH's by the dozen and the fit varies, but a couple of them grip like there is no tomorrow and this makes a huge difference.

Heat is something I never need to resort to on modern vehicles (that's a relative term and applies to anything under 60 yo) and is a last resort on very old, poorly stored or unused vehicles.

Not butchering the head makes life a lot easier. You should be able to feel when a tool is about to let go and if it hasn't released at that point, STOP, while you have something left to work with, and move onto another technique.

Using the free play in the knuckle of your long bar can provide a shock that will help loosen bolts that aren't too tight, either by hitting with the palm of your hand or a hammer

The degree of success of all these methods is, as Burns said, largely a matter of feel and experience. I'm sure it is, but there is only one way to get it and I have found these techniques to work well 1000's of times while always looking to improve them.

Good grip, plenty of torque and a few well place hammer blows will release pretty much anything you are likely to come across on the FJ.

If you are thinking that's exactly what a hammer driver does, it's not, it's what it's designed to do but fails to deliver.
If anyone wishes to discuss a specific problem in more detail I am happy to help if I can. If you are just looking for something to pick holes in and generally be a nuisance don't bother. If you have something constructive to add, great.

As testament to the effectiveness of the hammer blow (other than last nights experience) I was recently brought an old engine that attempts to remove the flywheel and pulley on had destroyed several pullers. A tyre lever (another favourite tool) under each side with a lot of pressure and one almighty belt with a hammer in the centre (on the shaft it was mounted to) and the thing just popped off.

This is just a broad, in principle suggestion for stubborn bolt/screw removal as each case can be different and has it's own variations in the best way to attack it.

Preserving the head and knowing when what you are doing is not working and stopping before you destroy it is always going to make the job easier.

Snapped off ezy-outs are about as bad as gets, but that's a whole other topic.

Noel

[Steve_in_Florida]

Pat,
Is there any chance that a previous owner used a Loctite-style product that requires excessive heat before it releases? We've encountered this in the shop on more than one occasion.

As soft as the bolts are, they should drill out pretty easily. (Aren't they made of cheese? ...or is this only the carb screws?)

Steve

[Pat Conlon]

Thank you Noel, good advice.

Steve, I don't know if the PO used thread locker, 3 of the 4 bolts were sheared off. The sole surviving bolt just had corrosion on it, no thread locker that I could see....'easy out' the broken bits and drill/tap for M10's is the plan.

[Steve_in_Florida]

...'easy out' the broken bits and drill/tap for M10's is the plan.

If you're already planning to drill oversize, then skip the screw extractor. If (and when) it breaks, it's only going to compound the problem.

To quote Wicked-pedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_extractor

     "The tools are made of very hard, brittle steel; they can break off inside the screw if too much torque is applied, making the removal much more difficult."

This advice also comes from Al, our shop owner (and LONGTIME machinist). He advises to NEVER use screw extractors. Customers come to us as a last resort. Milling hardened extractors out of a part with carbide isn't cheap.

You're dealing with a broken steel bolt that can be drilled. Add a core of broken, _HARDENED_ Easy Out, and now it can't (at least, not with the typical home tool set).

These are just offhand thoughts from the machine shop. At lease you're getting your money's worth!   

Steve

[Pat Conlon]

Yea, I hear you...the problem with the easy out process is getting the pilot drill centered on the broken pieces (buried in the frame)
When I started this process if I had a centering bushing for the pilot drill it would have been easier to center the holes.
I got the easy out holes drilled thru on all 3 pieces, abet off centered. I've been working with the easy out taps (both straight edge and spiraled) but I can't get the broken studs to budge.

Plan B: Go with bigger bolts

I'll skip the easy out process just out of the fear of dealing with a broken tap. I'll just drill out the old pieces and enlarge the frame holes.

I now have a centering bushing to use on the new 8.5mm drill bit needed for tapping the new M10x1.5 threads.

[simi_ed]

Pat, before you start, go to McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/# and order yourself some left handed drill bits.  Beats the snot out of EZ outs, and YOU WILL get results!


Ed

[Pat Conlon]

Thanks Eddie, will do...

[The General]

...'easy out' the broken bits and drill/tap for M10's is the plan.

If you're already planning to drill oversize, then skip the screw extractor. If (and when) it breaks, it's only going to compound the problem.

To quote Wicked-pedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_extractor

     "The tools are made of very hard, brittle steel; they can break off inside the screw if too much torque is applied, making the removal much more difficult."

This advice also comes from Al, our shop owner (and LONGTIME machinist). He advises to NEVER use screw extractors. Customers come to us as a last resort. Milling hardened extractors out of a part with carbide isn't cheap.

You're dealing with a broken steel bolt that can be drilled. Add a core of broken, _HARDENED_ Easy Out, and now it can't (at least, not with the typical home tool set).

These are just offhand thoughts from the machine shop. At lease you're getting your money's worth!   

Steve

I agree Steve....esp re ezi outs.

I totally researched the prob before deciding to buy the top parallel fluted extractor (not made in China) for same broken bolt.
Per your linked quote: Straight fluted extractors have less wedging effect than tapered screw extractors, so have less tendency to lock the screws into place. A further form is a parallel fluted extractor, with no taper at all and thus no wedging. These work well, but have the drawback of requiring the pilot hole to be drilled to a precise size. This size is often non-standard for most drill sets, requiring a dedicated drill bit to be supplied with the kit.

With hardly any real and straight torque applied to the extractor, I broke it off! (The leverage handle was a total of only 4 inches!)....now I couldn`t go ahead with plan B...reverse drills. (bugger!)

Then I discovered a mobile machinist in Brisbane. Apparently all the bike shops use him and many car mechanics find him to be the most economical solution before any attempt to do it themselves.. Prob was, his travel time from Brissie was too costly & the Fj was still in bits & difficult to trailer....Luckily another job came up near to my place eventually (Car exhaust manifold broken bolt) and I booked him in free of travel fee.

His fix was a pointed carbide grinder, (less diameter than the bolt of course.) hand held air drive followed by a larger drill and Tap. (It was he that told me not to use stainless steel and actually quoted the level of hardness of the bolt to buy....I even took pics of his work in progress.....I`ll see if I can find those details here amongst the rubbish!..if I can ever give it priority...I hate great weather all year round, sometimes!).

The pointed bit was good to make a starting point for reverse drills when required, and he reckoned an extractor would seldom have enough torque due to the nature of that bolt, dissimilar metal content etc. He only charged me for the 15 minutes he took to grind it out, then drill & tap the larger hole, but I managed to get another half an hour of his interesting methods over coffee. (thought seriously of buying his carbide grinder bit for future shared use,...they`re about $80 here, he told me.) 

[Mark Olson]

Noel is correct , you have to smack it with a hammer first (to get it's attention) for the shock value.

I use a old 3/8 extension as a drift and a short handled sledge hammer .

broken bolt removal can be a pain . If you use heat to break the loctite ,follow with an ice cube and the hot/cold effect will cause it to loosen up.

Always use a center punch before drilling and start with a drill bit smaller than what is required for the easy out . This way you will work up to the size needed.

The left handed drill bits rule.  (thanks Ed).

Back in the day when I worked as an engine machinist .

(When you gave up and brought it to the machine shop to have a broken bolt removed , It ended up on my workbench.)

That's my .02   spend it wisely.

[stua1959]

Hey Doug,
Thats what I need. I had a drill bit snap when I was trying to remove the broken bolt and that has made the problem worse. Frame rail is now hanging on with one bolt.Merry xmas to you and the family