RPM Fuel Injection System

[racerrad8]

The RPM EFI system was in the middle of final tuning & details, but ran into the need for a dyno. The local shops are really not interested in helping me. The one local dyno guy that I was hoping to be a good connection did not pan out. Even when I took pat's bike for dyno time. I had to roll his bike outside to make the jetting changes. While I rolled off the dyno, another bike went on and I had to wait for that one to get done before knew if the jetting changes were what we needed or not.

Since 2014 I have had to make business decisions on what direction was best for my FJ specific business. The purchase of my Yamaha dealer was the right choice to ensure  continuance of the Yamaha parts supply.

The RPM EFI system has been successful in taking Chris Wyatt o so close to the 200 MP goal of the standing mile at a mile in the sky.

They dyno is on the list of purchases as the RPM business model grows.

One note on the XJR1300 EFI system, it is a governed system to control speeds. There have been many XJR owners who have ditched the EFI for carbs so they can go fast.

The project is still on the counter next to the stove. When on of the burners opens up, it will go back on.

Thanks for Inquiring, Randy - RPM

[chiz]

Call me cynical,  but I have been reading stuff like this before there was an internet. It was wonderfull to read in some magazine that someone had figured out how to make a turbo work on a particular brand or fuel injection on another.

   Then the internet forums came along and all the bright folks could go back and forth discussing the merits of this and that and if this would work and so on. I lost interest way way back cause I knew I could never justify the cost of a properly designed system and honestly over the last 5 decades I have never seen aftermarket fuel injection brought to the motorcycle world in any great profusion.
  What I have seen is a multitude of other stuff designed an brought to market at a reasonable cost, electronic ignitions come to mind exhaust and suspension and so on. Not to say there haven't been "one offs" that have served their purpose to say get up the hill or down the strip really really fast, but for the most part after market EFI is not prolific on motorcycles of age the way the less expensive stuff is. Although the folks at RPM are more than capable of designing a good system I wonder if it is really worth the effort.
Chiz

[red]

I have never seen aftermarket fuel injection brought to the motorcycle world in any great profusion. . . .  the folks at RPM are more than capable of designing a good system I wonder if it is really worth the effort.
Chiz

Chiz,

After my decades of riding, it is safe to say that I have had the course with carbs, and I'd be done, here.  I can't wait for a good fuel injection system to appear, hopefully using some tried-and-true brands of fuel injectors from similar engines as mine.  I would not want a system that uses one-source fuel injectors, unless that source sells a lot of bikes and will still be in business next year.

I know that Power Commander has a "learning" module that tunes the injectors on the fly, as you ride, and then saves the resulting "map" of mixture profiles.  I wonder how difficult it would be to rig a Power Commander to a bank of injectors, to fit any particular bike.  No Dyno needed; just copy the good "map" to the next bike, whether it will have the "learning" module or not.
       

[Pat Conlon]

No need to be cynical Chiz, just be patient. (btw I fixed your spelling)

Of course, the future RPM FI system will not be a big seller, we know that and Randy knows that.
I could count on one, maybe two hands, the number of folks who would buy this offering.

That said, the prototype RPM FI system I saw was well thought out, and very well executed.
Using off the shelf (easily accessible via eBay) FJR throttle bodies along with RPM proprietary offset boots to fit the FJ cylinder spacing, was a stroke of genius. The high pressure fuel pump and fuel line routing designed in a way that you did not need to drill your tank for a return line, was a stroke of genius.
I was impressed.
Cracked your frame on a tour in the middle of BFE?
No worries, with the RPM FI Beefy Tostada ignition coils (tm) you could arc weld your frame. (kidding, but not really)

The silver lining is that every year we wait, the aftermarket ECU's get better and better. The Microsquirt ECU Randy used on his prototype has now evolved 2 generations since the FI prototype was built.

The Power Commander is used as a tuning accessory added to a FI bike that already has a ECU.
We call this a "piggy back".
This is done so you don't have to crack the highly complex code of (in many cases) a non programmable factory ECU.
When you start out with a fully programmable ECU like Randy will, the Power Commander is unnecessary.

The days of pulling our carbs and guessing on jetting will hopefully soon be behind us. (some of us)
The O2 sensor and the ECU (with auto tuning) will be simple to tune and dead nuts accurate. The new generation ECU's with the ability to store and recall multiple maps *on the fly* will be cool.
Want a power setting? Like 4th gear power wheelies? Got a cramp in your shoulders and you need to stretch them out?
Push a button.
Want a soft power setting for riding in the rain?
Push a button.
Riding on the freeway and want 50mpg?
Push a button.

Take a glass, add gasoline, put a straw in the glass and blow air across the top of the straw.
That's basically all we are doing now with our carbs.


Optimistically   Pat

[chiz]

I cant argue with any of this In fact if I ever get another bike it's going to be fuel injected but that's a slim possibility at my age. Even if this new bike came with all the tuneability as mentioned I think I would try it once and that would be it for me. But I do understand that once a project is undertaken like EFI on an FJ folks want to see it through to the end. For me I would have a stroke just trying to understand the set up manual.. God's sake I dint even have a cell phone for this same reason I just avoid feeding the digital world beast; my desktop is as high tech as it gets round here.
Chiz

[Pat Conlon]

I find this stuff fascinating, not scary. I can always call Randy or Robert and ask WTF?
.....or log on to the forum here and Noel will walk me thru it.

I'm 65 and I figure I've got another 15 years left** to ride (God willing) so I do hope the RPM FI happens sooner, rather than later.

**When my sense of balance declines, I do have plans on turning my mistress into a bitchen 3 wheel trike (with fuel injection) Don't 'cha  think an FJ with some 245/40-15 gum balls in the back, would look cool?

Gives me plenty of room to carry my walker.

[Tuned forks]

Well all this discussion makes a body wonder, what does Randy want?  So what is your preferred brand and type of dyno?  Have you priced it?  Dynojet eddy current?

Joe

[Pat Conlon]

http://www.dynojet.com/products/dynamometers/DynoModel250iX/dynojet-dynamometer-250ix.aspx

Randy talked about it here at post #10 http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18077.0

[Tuned forks]

I forgot about that thread.  Don't know how you remember all this stuff Pat.  Wonder why Randy wants wide body version?

Joe

[Tuned forks]

Oh I get it now, the Legends cars.  Duh.

Joe

[red]

I cant argue with any of this In fact if I ever get another bike it's going to be fuel injected but that's a slim possibility at my age. Even if this new bike came with all the tuneability as mentioned I think I would try it once and that would be it for me. But I do understand that once a project is undertaken like EFI on an FJ folks want to see it through to the end. For me I would have a stroke just trying to understand the set up manual.. God's sake I dint even have a cell phone for this same reason I just avoid feeding the digital world beast; my desktop is as high tech as it gets round here.
Chiz

Chiz,
Nothing difficult about a fuel-injected bike!       Buy a running bike, turn the key and go.  Carbs are far more delicate and finicky.  Other than adding a very occasional half-a-can of fuel injector cleaner to the gas during a fill-up, there is nothing strange or tricky about them.  There is no "tunability" needed or wanted, with fuel injection.  The Yamaha FJR1300 (the FJs new big brother) here can be had for US$3k~$5k in fine condition.  The newer used versions can cost twice that much and more, of course.  Those FJR engines typically run 250k+ miles with no costly repairs, so an FJR with 40K miles on the clock is barely broken in.

Replacing carbs with Fuel Injection on the FJ would be a fair challenge, sure, but you won't have any such concerns with the average Fuel Injected bike built in the last dozen years. 
Kick the tires, and light the fires.  SshOOoommm . . .
       

[ribbert]

..... and honestly over the last 5 decades I have never seen aftermarket fuel injection brought to the motorcycle world in any great profusion.
  What I have seen is a multitude of other stuff designed an brought to market at a reasonable cost, electronic ignitions come to mind exhaust and suspension and so on......but for the most part after market EFI is not prolific on motorcycles of age the way the less expensive stuff is.....
Chiz

I don't find that surprising. IMO the reason is simply cost/benefit. The cost of making a universal after market FI would be huge, fraught with problems (trying to make it universal) and would never sell in the volume required to make it worth while, and for the customer, very little benefit to justify the cost. With carbies being reliable and requiring very little maintenance once set up properly* why would owners have wanted to change.
Bikes are relatively cheap and while you are thinking about buying an aftermarket FI system for your bike, next years model has hit the showroom, makes more power than your current bike would with FI, costs less to trade up to than the FI system would have cost and it's shiny.

Such an expensive upgrade to a current bike of the day you'll probably trade up every couple of years anyway is a different consideration to fitting it to your classic (the FJ) you never intend selling.

The motivation for manufacturers to change to FI originally was to meet increasingly difficult emission standards, not higher performance. Even the humble Honda Postie bike is now fuel injected for that reason.
I ride two bikes, one with carbs, one with FI. The only difference is one needs choke to start it cold and the other one doesn't.

*That includes jetting, tuning, fuel cut-off, supply, flooding etc.




Noel

[Millietant]

I also find it funny that a lot of the moto-journalists who get to test properly set up 70's - 90's superbikes always comment on how much more "rideable" these carbed bikes are, than some of the modern FI and fly-by-wire bikes. They almost always comment on the "linear" response to throttle inputs.

My favourite magazines are Practical Sportsbikes and Classic Motorcycle Mechanics - and their testers seem to be big advocates of carbed bikes.

I've had an Aprilia RSV 1000 for 13 years, the only fuel injected bike I've ever owned and to be honest, I never even think about it being fuel injected - it works exactly as I expect it to and never even think about it. In terms of maintenance, I do everything on all my bikes, except messing with the FI on the RSV, but I have a great independent Aprilia expert nearby.

[ribbert]

.....I can always call Randy or Robert and ask WTF?
.....or log on to the forum here and Noel will walk me thru it.

Haha, why not, the last one went well!

I'm flattered Pat. Such high praise from you is indeed humbling.

Noel

[chiz]

The motivation for manufacturers to change to FI originally was to meet increasingly difficult emission standards, not higher performance. Even the humble Honda Postie bike is now fuel injected for that reason.
I ride two bikes, one with carbs, one with FI. The only difference is one needs choke to start it cold and the other one doesn't.



Of course this I had not considered..... While we are at it wonder if any of the producers are thinking like Mazda with their compression ignition... probably not practical on a bike. I must mention here though that once OMC Jonson Evinrude went belly up because of warranty work on their untried and untested EFI two stroke outboards. Bombardier saw an opportunity and bought them out and now produce a fantastic outboard motor that is more powerfull uses less fuel and oil and is ultra reliable